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B.K.

Member
Oct 31, 2017
17,021
Basically. Learn what the new jobs are about, some of the changes for current jobs, some new info here and there and updates on things we know about already. Oh and some new music will be played.

Live Letter 67 is coming in early November. We should hear a bit more about Endwalker then and get the launch trailer.

 

Dolce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,235
If your healers need to waste a powerful CD or devise and apply some sort of healing rotation just to counter the drawbacks of a skill, it should be apparent that something went horribly wrong during development.

PLD's Hallowed Ground has no drawbacks aside from a long CD, while WAR can even pick themselves up back from the brink of death of Holmang with just a single succesful use of their own Nascent Flash

Gun breaker needs the most attention aside from DRK'S but at least they pay the cost for their skill upfront and can be topped up with a single regen, as opposed to having your healers with a looming concern to purge a crippling debuff as late as possible without killing the DRK or outright wasting the Living Dead CD to begin with.

Hallowed Ground also takes an eternity to activate.

heal 50% of max hp bam done

Stuff like that works. But the stat squish is probably going to change things around, too.
 

Altair

Member
Jan 11, 2018
7,901
And I'd much rather have a TBN than a Heart of Stone/Sheltron. You use general defensive CDs WAY more than you ever use invulns and DRK has the best one, full stop.

How good TBN is doesn't mean you just slam a shitty invuln on DRK and call it a day. And invulns are just as important as regular cds in savage+ content, so that justification doesn't even fly.
 

snausages

Member
Feb 12, 2018
10,337
LD is one of those rare situations where I find physick can be nice. Physick, weave emergency tactics and then adlo. Of course that's describing a situation where something went wrong and GCD heals are being used as a last resort.

The person I usually raid with usually plays WHM tho so I just fall asleep and ignore the mechanic entirely lol
 

InfiniDragon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,306
Then what exactly are you arguing? If it's shit in pug scenarios compared to other invulns then what does it matter if a static can coordinate well enough to negate the side effect of it? As Dougie said above, a AST/SCH comp requires much more resources to keep a DRK alive than they would a GNB or WAR. I'd still much rather have holmgang or bolide in a static environment than living dead as well. Generally speaking, it's just a shitty invuln overall.

I'm arguing it's not a shitty invuln, it just has a downside of not being pug friendly which doesn't automatically make it shitty. There are better invulns (like Bolide) but it's usually a trade-off like Hallowed which is the opposite of LD, great in pugs but not as good in statics due to the really long CD only allowing for one use in many fights instead of two.
 

alpha

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,997
How good TBN is doesn't mean you just slam a shitty invuln on DRK and call it a day. And invulns are just as important as regular cds in savage+ content, so that justification doesn't even fly.

But in Savage and up uses of invulns are planned and easily healed when you know it's coming so...?

Yeah it's not as good as the others but claiming it's borderline unusable and such especially in the above example is false.

Whereas you do have to go "on the fly" with your regular defensive CDs all the time in the rest of the content and again...TBN is the best.
 

zMiiChy-

Member
Dec 12, 2017
1,881
Yeah the invuln window is the trade off, lasts way the hell longer than the others. But I do feel in the name of pug balance it should be changed because most folks are dealing with jobbers in pugs, haha.
The window for Living Dead where you actually negate damage is only 9 seconds at best, and even near instantaneous at worst.

The additional 9 second buffer window sounds really convenient at first, but it isn't nearly as practical as it sounds.
All I can think of in recent memory where people consistently took advantage of it was Titania EX.
 

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,547
Yes it's scripted, but it doesn't change the fact that a combo of AST/SCH has got to use way more resources to keep a DRK alive. The fact that your invuln can kill you is ridiculously stupid, especially with how high Tank HP is at the moment.

It's all scaled on potency and healer stats so what tank HP ends up at doesn't really matter. An AST has essential dignity which at 1hp, scales to heal a DRK to half health immediately, and they have 2 of them. A recitation ecog is a crit 800 potency heal that doesn't use a stack. Every healers OGCDs are like 30 second cooldowns, adjusting is easy. Yes you spend more resources than a whm, but Benediction at 3 minutes is the penalty for it and is locked down for exclusive use for 3 of the 4 tanks which makes it a skill you basically never get to use organically in serious content. LD is annoying, but it's blown up to be a much bigger thing than it is because healers are ridiculously powerful . Slap a heal up on it that effects all incoming heals and it's more than fine. The 10 second wiggle room of procing LD and it's duration has been more handy than the healing burden.
 
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alpha

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,997
It's all scaled on potency and healer stats so what tank HP ends up at doesn't really matter. An AST has 2 essential dignity which at 1hp, scales to heal them to past half health immediately, and they have 2 of them. Every healers OGCDs are like 30 second cooldowns, adjusting is easy. Yes you spend more resources than a whm, but Benediction at 3 minutes is the penalty for it. LD is annoying, but it's blown up to be a much bigger thing than it is. Slap a heal up on it that effects all incoming heals and it's more than fine

Yep, basically.
 

Altair

Member
Jan 11, 2018
7,901
But in Savage and up uses of invulns are planned and easily healed when you know it's coming so...?

Yeah it's not as good as the others but claiming it's borderline unusable and such especially in the above example is false.

Whereas you do have you on the fly your regular defensive CDs all the time in the rest of the content and again...TBN is the best.

I didn't say unusable. If it was unusable then DRK wouldn't get played in Savage+. I said it's shitty which it is and I will stand by that. No healer should have to waste excess resources on you because your invuln will kill you if not fully healed in a 10 second window. No other invuln requires that and no other tank benefits from a WHM as much as a DRK.
 

InfiniDragon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,306
It's all scaled on potency and healer stats so what tank HP ends up at doesn't really matter. An AST has 2 essential dignity which at 1hp, scales to heal them to past half health immediately, and they have 2 of them. Every healers OGCDs are like 30 second cooldowns, adjusting is easy. Yes you spend more resources than a whm, but Benediction at 3 minutes is the penalty for it. LD is annoying, but it's blown up to be a much bigger thing than it is. Slap a heal up on it that effects all incoming heals and it's more than fine

Yep, agreed.
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,255
Midgar, With Love
Paladin and Red Mage here. I mostly play for the story/world/characters, so tbh, some of the discussion is going straight over my head. But with Shadowbringers behind me, I'd say I know enough to take notes tonight (and possibly write an article somewhere).
 

zMiiChy-

Member
Dec 12, 2017
1,881
But in Savage and up uses of invulns are planned and easily healed when you know it's coming so...?

Yeah it's not as good as the others but claiming it's borderline unusable and such especially in the above example is false.

Whereas you do have to go "on the fly" with your regular defensive CDs all the time in the rest of the content and again...TBN is the best.
It's flat out unusable in solo play and typically a liability for general group play - which constitute roughly 80% of all combat encounters in the game.

I get that you realistically ought to balance skills based on their potential in top level play, but that still doesn't mean said play should exist in a vacuum.

Holmang was extremely situational for solo play before the targeting requirement was removed in 5.3, but now WAR's self sustain potential may exceed even Paladin's.

Speaking of which, while not as convenient as TBN I'd much rather have well used Nascent Flash's/ Glints in the party, as they can potentially heal much more HP than TBN can mitigate, without expending any resources that can be used towards DPS.

I'd wager that the majority of TBN's used in the game don't even pop
 

eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,644
Paladin and Red Mage here. I mostly play for the story/world/characters, so tbh, some of the discussion is going straight over my head. But with Shadowbringers behind me, I'd say I know enough to take notes tonight (and possibly write an article somewhere).
a large section of tonight, likely doesnt mean much to story focused players. job changes largely effects raiding/endgame. though I expect a decent amount of just endwalker general info that will be worth covering too.
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,255
Midgar, With Love
a large section of tonight, likely doesnt mean much to story focused players. job changes largely effects raiding/endgame. though I expect a decent amount of just endwalker general info that will be worth covering too.

Makes sense! Yeah, I'm all eyes on anything Endwalker-related even if it's purely gameplay-focused. So stoked to be an active player at the launch of an expansion for the first time.
 

Tyrant Rave

Has A Pretty Cool Jacket
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,696
Yes it's scripted, but it doesn't change the fact that a combo of AST/SCH has got to use way more resources to keep a DRK alive. The fact that your invuln can kill you is ridiculously stupid, especially with how high Tank HP is at the moment.
I think the difference makes it more interesting than the others, so I don't think it's stupid at all. It's either turn it into the others, or make the healing requirement easier and nerf it in another fashion like CD length or invuln duration. I think in its current state it's not that bad to heal up with any healer comp (if you have no WHM you have an AST with ED) and it also helps make it a little more unique. And honestly, I don't think tanks need to be even more similar personally.

I think the issues with DRK stem from Delirium being kind of boring and its CD offensive OGCDs all feel limp in a raid. But considering it has the best mitigation otherwise (no one bringing up Dark Mind which is essentially a free CD that's very strong along with Dark Missionary+TBN) and a very flexible offensive moveset that lets it adjust to raid buffs at will, I'm pretty happy with the job right now. I think the management of resources help make it a really interesting job and it performs very well at high levels.
 

eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,644
It's flat out unusable in solo play and typically a liability for general group play - which constitute roughly 80% of all combat encounters in the game.

I get that you realistically ought to balance skills based on their potential in top level play, but that still doesn't mean said play should exist in a vacuum.

Holmang was extremely situational for solo play before the targeting requirement was removed in 5.3, but now WAR's self sustain potential may exceed even Paladin's.

Speaking of which, while not as convenient as TBN I'd much rather have well used Nascent Flash's/ Glints in the party, as they can potentially heal much more HP than TBN can mitigate, without expending any resources that can be used towards DPS.

I'd wager that the majority of TBN's used in the game don't even pop
tbn has its uses though, ech tank has a difrent kit for a reason, tbn can stop leathal damage.
 

Dougieflesh

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,031
Milky Way Ghetto
It's all scaled on potency and healer stats so what tank HP ends up at doesn't really matter. An AST has essential dignity which at 1hp, scales to heal a DRK to half health immediately, and they have 2 of them. A recitation ecog is a crit 800 potency heal that doesn't use a stack. Every healers OGCDs are like 30 second cooldowns, adjusting is easy. Yes you spend more resources than a whm, but Benediction at 3 minutes is the penalty for it and is locked down for exclusive use for 3 of the 4 tanks which makes it a skill you basically never get to use organically in serious content. LD is annoying, but it's blown up to be a much bigger thing than it is because healers are ridiculously powerful . Slap a heal up on it that effects all incoming heals and it's more than fine. The 10 second wiggle room of procing LD and it's duration has been more handy than the healing burden.
That works on paper until you get stuff like this. 2 ED's, 1 Lustrate, Benefic 2, and a Souleater. Still died. If it was 50% HP it would be infinitely less annoying.
 

zMiiChy-

Member
Dec 12, 2017
1,881
tbn has its uses though, ech tank has a difrent kit for a reason, tbn can stop leathal damage.
I still think TBN is the best Tank CD even over Nascent Flash, just pointing out that even it is not without flaws.

If you find it doesn't pop often and you use it regularly it can equate to a significant potential DPS loss.

In the West WAR seems to be to preferred due to the former while Japan seems to favor DRK for the latter.

I find myself agreeing with the former because you can target your co Tank with TBN.
 

snausages

Member
Feb 12, 2018
10,337
I dunno, maybe my perspective is warped by not doing an ultimate or seeing phase 2 of e12 but I've never been that panicked by LD. SCH has so many cooldowns. If it's planned I can hold back an energy drain or try and scope out when recitation can be placed in a fight to keep things under control. Or I can yolo and still have one or two useful CDs for that purpose cause I'm not gonna be doing DPS optimization until clearing a few times anyway

If it's an unplanned LD, well it's a diff situation isn't it cause all your CDs are out of whack at that point anyway, but crisis management is part of the appeal of some of these classes for people. Like right now the prob in a lot of content is not a lot of very active healing until the very end of savage, with very boring downtime on healer. So I guess I don't mind LD so much really, but as already said I let the WHM handle it usually, unless he decides to go AST. If I have to dip into GCD heals I always have an ether anyway

That video above is funny tho, maybe the problem is more with Essential Dignity 🤣

edit maybe those healers also suck, that AST seems to be doing weird things and reacting very slow. Swiftcast benefit 2, did he weave anything in it? The SCH is up to nothing, shoulda done what I said and use physick->ET->adlo as last resort if he had no CDs and only 1 AF lol
 
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InfiniDragon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,306
It's flat out unusable in solo play and typically a liability for general group play - which constitute roughly 80% of all combat encounters in the game.

Holmang was extremely situational for solo play before the targeting requirement was removed in 5.3, but now WAR's self sustain potential may exceed even Paladin's.

Speaking of which, while not as convenient as TBN I'd much rather have well used Nascent Flash's/ Glints in the party, as they can potentially heal much more HP than TBN can mitigate, without expending any resources that can be used towards DPS.

I'd wager that the majority of TBN's used in the game don't even pop

The DRK is not pulling big enough if TBN isn't popping, for one. For two, Nascent is stronger in big pulls where there's a lot of stuff to hit, but worse than TBN on single target big hits (Ex, Savage, Ult) where the shield outdoes the heal that you get from only 1-2 targets unless you pair it with Equilibrium. TBN is a bit more versatile in all situations which gives it the edge over Nascent which only shows it's best in big pulls. Doesn't make Nascent a bad CD (it's fantastic) but it's no TBN.
 

stupei

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,801
I might ask for a prayer circle for bard damage buff, but not sure how many people would join me.

Even so. Please please.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,494
For those that haven't been paying attention, here's the minimum you can expect from known information in the benchmark

Ah, interesting, the RDM ability was just a Verthunder upgrade. I had been wondering if people forgot that the basic black mana spell was already Verthunder when they talked about "a thunder spell", lol. Maybe we're getting Verthunder/Veraero 3.

...I now realize I haven't actually watched the benchmark still, since I missed it as it happened. Maybe I should do that as prep for the stream.
 

zMiiChy-

Member
Dec 12, 2017
1,881
The DRK is not pulling big enough if TBN isn't popping, for one. For two, Nascent is stronger in big pulls where there's a lot of stuff to hit, but worse than TBN on single target big hits (Ex, Savage, Ult) where the shield outdoes the heal that you get from only 1-2 targets unless you pair it with Equilibrium. TBN is a bit more versatile in all situations which gives it the edge over Nascent which only shows it's best in big pulls. Doesn't make Nascent a bad CD (it's fantastic) but it's no TBN.
I just miss being able to achieve similar results as DRK with Abyssal Drain + DARK arts.

DRK was secretly the best tank in SB and in my opinion became worse in SHB aside from an upgraded MP economy.

Still annoying that years later people are still asking for a Fix for Living Dead and Blood Weapon, even though TBN is as fun as ever.

Sole Survivor and Abyssal drain could have helped enough to offset the drawback of Living Dead, but the former was flat out removed while the latter was severely nerfed, hence why complaints towards living dead are more frequent than ever.
 

alpha

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,997
I just miss being able to achieve similar results as DRK with Abyssal Drain + DARK arts.

DRK was secretly the best tank in SB and in my opinion become worse in SHB aside from an upgraded MP economy.

Still annoying that years later people are still asking for a Fix for Living Dead and Blood Weapon, even though TBN is as fun as ever.

Dark Arts Abyssal was great and it sucks when they just made it a basic ass OGCD. This, I will fully agree with.
 

InfiniDragon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,306
I just miss being able to achieve similar results as DRK with Abyssal Drain + DARK arts.

DRK was secretly the best tank in SB and in my opinion become worse in SHB aside from an upgraded MP economy.

Still annoying that years later people are still asking for a Fix for Living Dead and Blood Weapon, even though TBN is as fun as ever.

No arguments there, TBN with DA Abyssal was wild and I miss it too, I hope it goes back to being a GCD heal in EW. It could have the same cost as a TBN/Edge/Flood to balance it a bit more, but that would be awesome.
 

diablogg

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,267
Paladin and Red Mage here. I mostly play for the story/world/characters, so tbh, some of the discussion is going straight over my head. But with Shadowbringers behind me, I'd say I know enough to take notes tonight (and possibly write an article somewhere).

I'm sorta with you. Having just finished the post patch Shadowbringers quest last night, being a DRK main and Ninja as my other main class, most of what people are talking about here is shooting directly above my head =)
 

InfiniDragon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,306
I'm sorta with you. Having just finished the post patch Shadowbringers quest last night, being a DRK main and Ninja as my other main class, most of what people are talking about here is shooting directly above my head =)

Yeah going in-depth over job balance and changes is super meta raid stuff, if that's not your thing you can just smile and nod at us bickering, lol.
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,255
Midgar, With Love
I'm sorta with you. Having just finished the post patch Shadowbringers quest last night, being a DRK main and Ninja as my other main class, most of what people are talking about here is shooting directly above my head =)

We'll get through this!

2738-l.webp
 

diablogg

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,267
From the perspective of a super casual DRK, Living Death seemed cool to me because I used it as the ohh shit I'm going to die button, which seemed to give the party a few seconds to either kill this boss, or top me off. I played Paladin a bit before that and I don't remember him having anything like that, so I enjoyed using the skill in that way.
 

Baliis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
539
From the perspective of a super casual DRK, Living Death seemed cool to me because I used it as the ohh shit I'm going to die button, which seemed to give the party a few seconds to either kill this boss, or top me off. I played Paladin a bit before that and I don't remember him having anything like that, so I enjoyed using the skill in that way.

All of the tanks have a similar skill, PLDs just makes you straight up invincible for a bit, but has a much longer cool down
 

Pancho

Avenger
Nov 7, 2017
1,976
Im looking forward to this live letter far more than any other gaming event this year, lol
 

Richietto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,962
North Carolina
From the perspective of a super casual DRK, Living Death seemed cool to me because I used it as the ohh shit I'm going to die button, which seemed to give the party a few seconds to either kill this boss, or top me off. I played Paladin a bit before that and I don't remember him having anything like that, so I enjoyed using the skill in that way.
Paladin just gets straight invincibility.
 

Luigi87

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,104
Give Eos/Selene a gun!

That'll show them Sages!

Alternatively: Let me summon both Eos and Selene for duo faerie action!
And then change it that Seraph is the result of them doing a fusion dance!
 
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Viale

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,614
That works on paper until you get stuff like this. 2 ED's, 1 Lustrate, Benefic 2, and a Souleater. Still died. If it was 50% HP it would be infinitely less annoying.


Lmaooooo. I feel this. It's always a tad frustrating playing with a DRK with no whm as a result.

Even as a whm, it's mildly annoying as your best heal basically becomes a button only for the drk's specific situation.

I really hope it gets tweaked with EW.
 

Kenai

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,182
Yep, can't be worse than the strongest healer in the game by a whole lot, so awful.

* I know you mean play style rather than performance.

AST is totally going to get gutted, by the way. Holding out hope for good DRK changes and that they don't eff up RDM and GNB.

5.0 AST in Holminister Switch was some real butt clenching stuff, i would be genuinely surprised if it was worse than that but playing a healer at expansion launch is quite the dice roll regardless.
This is kinda right where I'm at! RDM is my main and I thought I'd get bored of it while doing Extremes, but it ended up just being so reliable for me to use while figuring things out that it didn't end up being a problem. Plus rez maging lets me atone for my mistakes...

But I would love to be able to pick up SMN - I started as it and played it though HW or so story-wise, and it did reach 80 first but by that point I was really maining RDM already. BLM was neat to level but not the play style is something I'm up for in endgame so 2nd caster-wise, SMN it is, and... the rotation is complicated enough that I then put off relearning it at 80 for like the past half a year, whoops. Like I get the whole point of the rotation, but the actual buttons required are a mess in my brain.

So I really hope it's easier to handle at 90. I don't need it to be super simplified, but when I tried to come up with an intuitive mapping for my MMO mouse a few months ago, it was such a mess that I went right back to putting off learning it again. There's just a lot of the rotation that doesn't connect in a way where I can "flow" across the buttons like other jobs can, because a lot of skills are only happening once in the 2 minute loop. Or are happening only with skills that I use way more often and so end up placed further away, etc. It was just very very awkward and I couldn't figure out something comfortable at all. But maybe if the EW changes are appealing enough I'll be curious enough to try playing it more before then, and try to figure it out again...

I feel like the worst for me is probably remembering the "finishers" for the end of dreadwyrm trance ect. Except they aren't actually finishers cause you are supposed to press them twice. And then the actual finisher that ends that one early(deathflare?). And the numerous 30-45 second CDs on top of that before you even start to look at the boss. Throw in multiple dots, pet management (with their own CDs and ranges!) and procs on top of that and it's actually a little crazy. If any job actually had a concern regarding button bloat I'd immediately put SMN at the top of the list.
 

InfiniDragon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,306
5.0 AST in Holminister Switch was some real butt clenching stuff, i would be genuinely surprised if it was worse than that but playing a healer at expansion launch is quite the dice roll regardless.

Well yeah, I meant current AST after they became busted, not the puny launch version lol. Launch ShB AST was super jank and I hope the EW version we end up with isn't that bad.