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Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood |OT| A Realm Reset
- Thread starter Red XIII
- Start date
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Lemme tell you, it might be quite confronting / amusing to see Trust System NPCs do mechanics correctly, as 50% of any roulette I do is watching people just ignore them...which is death in, for example, Aurum Vale. I'm not even saying that my play is perfect or anything (lol I forgot everything in Zurvan, which was amusing as I was tanking it), but wow.
I honestly got through roulettes by thinking everyone including myself are bots with varying degrees of proper scripting/programming.
I honestly got through roulettes by thinking everyone including myself are bots with varying degrees of proper scripting/programming.
I was always nervous about doing a dungeon as a DPS without watching a guide first, let alone tanking. But since deciding to pick tanking back up these last couple of weeks, I'm much happier to let it wash over me. People are friendly. If there's a wipe, who cares. I want to see those dungeons and trials fresh the first time. Only get one chance.
I missed them all in SB but some of the most fun in the game is doing the 24 man dungeons right after launch when nobody knows the fights
Oh God, I am remembering doing the
I did parts 2 and 3 of Ivalice recently blind. Guys I was playing with didn't say anything.
"The fuck, I need to learn how to count in this fight? I'm supposed to know prime numbers?!"
Do we have any high level raiding tanks here? I am kind of bummed about SAM in ShB and been looking at my options if I find SAM too boring at 80.
And today our OT left the static because she wants to play DNC and we already have one and I started to look at the tanks in ShB a bit and GNB looks like a lot of fun.
So just wondering what it's like to play tank in XIV compared to DPS? I always imagined tanking as being super hectic but maybe not? I don't have tons of raiding experience in this game either so not sure what to expect as a tank.
Also any opinions on how tanking in ShB is shaping up and on GNB?
EDIT: And if there is a good up to date general tanking guide please let me know!
And today our OT left the static because she wants to play DNC and we already have one and I started to look at the tanks in ShB a bit and GNB looks like a lot of fun.
So just wondering what it's like to play tank in XIV compared to DPS? I always imagined tanking as being super hectic but maybe not? I don't have tons of raiding experience in this game either so not sure what to expect as a tank.
Also any opinions on how tanking in ShB is shaping up and on GNB?
EDIT: And if there is a good up to date general tanking guide please let me know!
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Tanking is like healing: it only gets hectic during progression and if something goes wrong in your run. There's a greater burden on tanks to have mechanics down, since flubbing generally kills everyone. Once you have your cooldown usage and mechanics down, it allows for quite a lot of relaxation. IMHO, anyways. If you can do a DPS rotation, you can do a tank rotation.
As far as ShB goes, Paladin is pretty much unchanged, hella good personal and party mitigation, some new toys. Only shame is Cover costing resource now - means using it will be more thought than it used to. It will most likely be the same as in Stormblood. Only difference is that we'll have even less aggro issues, which were already almost non-existent in Stormblood.
If you are looking to try tanking, then Paladin is the most forgiving. Most mechanically simple, until you hit 68, which is when you get Requiescat. This changes your rotation. When leveling, remember that Flash is absolutely your friend in dungeons. Flash all the things.
Haven't dived into the GNB class myself, as I'll only level that much later. From what I hear from my co-tank, it's shaping up to be darn good, and hey, it uses a gunblade! Warrior is still king of the hill, though.
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I have a question about the healer changes:
I haven't played healer extensively since the beginning patches of 4.0. However, from what I remember, most healer dps (AST and SCH) was simply spamming either Malficic or Broil and maintaining the job's dot (Combust / Bio). I know SCH is losing some additional dot abilities with the loss of Miasma, EDrain, and SF but is the change THAT significant that it cannot be managed with using additional Ruin IIs to add more damage? Ditto for WHM and AST simply upgrading their existant DPS tools.
I haven't played healer extensively since the beginning patches of 4.0. However, from what I remember, most healer dps (AST and SCH) was simply spamming either Malficic or Broil and maintaining the job's dot (Combust / Bio). I know SCH is losing some additional dot abilities with the loss of Miasma, EDrain, and SF but is the change THAT significant that it cannot be managed with using additional Ruin IIs to add more damage? Ditto for WHM and AST simply upgrading their existant DPS tools.
Tanking LOOKS harder than it is really. A lot of fights, you're just a DPS that can ignore/fail some mechanics fine, but have specific mechanics for you only that if you fail can and generally will wipe the raid. So a bit more pressure on some thing, but quite often not very hard things(I'd say the hardest tank stuff is picking up tethers, because of how wonky the netcode can be in this game when people are moving). You have to press your defensive cooldowns at the right time, but most often the right time is when the boss starts casting the skill, and you often have 3secs to press the button, so it's not like super challenging. In a few cases you have to cooldown early so it's up for something later, but this is similar to DPS optimization when you know the boss will leave soon and you have to reorganize your stuff a bit. You have the tank swap mechanic which is unique to tanks, and which involves pressing provoke and then resuming your stuff while the other tank shirks you, or if the other tank provoke, you shirk them. Can make a macro for shirk since you're never going to be shirking anyone else but the other tank anyway(unless you're trolling DPS in dungeons), so it's really really simple.
For casual content, tanking is the easiest job imo. You can generally stand in everything and not die anyway, and your job generally involves pressing one button that gives aggro on everything, and then just DPSing like normal, while pressing defensive cooldowns as you go.
On top of that, you get instant queues for about everything but 24man(tank queues on 24man are actually quite sucky, cause only 3 tanks per alliance). Classes are also good for soloing, both daily content stuff(often have good damage and ok burst, especially WAR) and old unsynced content(tanks tend to be the strongest at soloing primals or old raids or whatever since high mitigation AND self healing AND good damage).
The only downside to tanks is the "pressure". Some people don't care, but some people get really anxious about having to "lead" and about making mistakes and wiping the group or whatever.
It's not about the raw numbers for most of the complaints, since we don't really know how damage calculations will work out, it's about the play style. Healers have always had stripped down damage rotations, but Energy Drains made using aetherflow to heal have an opportunity cost, the second DoT added something else to keep track of. Without Energy Drain, there's no use for aetherflow but healing abilities which removes a lot of the need to preplan (Making sure you had stacks for the heals you needed, while not sitting on them and wasting aetherflow/Energy Drains is no longer going to be a thing.) It potentially reduces damage output, but the real killer is that there's simply less to think about as a scholar now and they received a healing buff so it seriously risks being boring. AST's damage rotation was the most braindead of the healers, but that was because they had the card mini game. Now SCH has AST's rotation, without the cards.
AST's cards took a hit, meanwhile, and turned into more speed run optimization things where every draw is a different flavor of the same and what you're going to end up focused on is just rushing stuff out between the correct GCDs since all the buffs are shorter now. They lost all the time manipulation aspects of the job (no more buff extension), the new healing stuff is fairly underwhelming and feels comparatively weak, and there's not really anything new to do to make up for what was lost. Everything they have for damage is also kept Strictly Worse than the other healers which doesn't feel great, given how hard a hit card rDPS contribution took, noct is still bad, and Diurnal looks to feel even more like kneecapped WHM.
The actual flat damage numbers for the healers isn't the core problem (outside of WHM, who needs their numbers to be noticeably higher than the others to justify a raid slot since somehow still no party buffs), it's how they're going to get there that is the issue.
Easy way around this is to become adept at blaming somebody else. Or just putting 'wtf happened there guys?' in chat.
I joke, but I used to think it would be way more pressure than it actually is. Just say you're new to that content. A wipe is a wipe, it's no biggie. It's only a problem when a group wipes over and over and nobody actually learns.
Yeah but while you can reason and tell people they shouldn't care too much about it, it still doesn't really help for some people. Anxiety isn't really something that you can easily "cure" by just thinking it's fine anyway, if it was that easy, it generally wouldn't be a problem. There's different levels of anxiety though, I always kinda like doing new content on healer or DPS first so I can see it and tank it properly for example, I'm not a fan of tanking first, even though I know technically, it's fine.
But some people have it a lot worse and just can't get around the mostly self inflicted pressure. They'll do a dungeon run, no one says anything, but they feel they're being judged and any mistake they make however small puts them in a bad mental state.
Just how it is I guess, so tanking isn't for everyone, but generally you can and should just ignore when idiots tell you you suck because you didn't do a mechanic you've never seen before or whatever, and remember that if they whine too much, you can kick them and most people will side with the tank rather than the whiner, because everyone knows if the tank leaves/gets kicked, you might as well restart the queue. And as you said if you mention you're new first, most people will not give a shit if you fuck up something, or tell you what to look for if it's important during a boss(like "when the boss casts his breath, use a cooldown and move out of the frost crap asap but don't spin the boss into the group before it's done casting").
If they are anything like Squadrons, they won't be doing mechanics
Oh Rabenasty, Wipehouse, Monasstry were experiences on launch. I think when I DF the Monastery on launch we didn't clear even.
My MNK is 69 and I'll get it to 70 later today. After that I'm considering giving my level 48 PLD another try. Pressure to lead is basically why I stopped leveling. I didn't enjoy being the leader and being expected to know everything. Some dungeons are also just awful like Aurum Veil. I feel much less pressure as a healer and zero pressure as DPS so those roles are fine. Tanking was a bit much though.
They're not, just check a video if you want to see, you can't control them, and they do mechanics. Think Ghymlit NPCs like how they split with the pink aoe from the first iron giant.
I had it really bad like 4 years ago when I was levelling WAR through HW. So much so I dropped it to be a DPS and less likely to cause a fuck up for the group. Don't know what changed though, picked DRK back up recently and i'm super chill about it.
I get wordy.
Done everything in the game raid-wise as a tank and blahblahblah credentials.
Tanking in XIV is fairly simple in terms of what you're executing in terms of buttons. Blue DPS is a real thing and our DPS rotations are fairly simplistic. At the same time, them being so simple means the minor points of optimization end up mattering a lot more in what you achieve. So, for instance, WAR meter control can end up being 2-3% higher avg crit in a given fight and more Infuriates meaning more Fell Cleaves which can end up being the difference between low purple and an orange, to use FFLogs terms here; more so if you end up losing a Fell Cleave under Inner Release due to clipping / bad oGCD timing and ding yourself ~50-100 DPS depending on fight length. So there's "depth" in tank DPS but ultimately it's milking your resources for everything and consistency. I highlight all this because it's the big thing coming from DPS-side to be aware of. You still have DPS optimization but it's a lot simpler to execute. But also means each part matters a lot more.
Now, the actual tanking part is split into two, maybe three, categories in terms of complexity. Actual tanking with respect to damage and tankbusters is generally the easiest part. Tankbusters are generally telegraphed* with long cast bars and the only GCD locked mitigation is Inner Beast and you'll rarely use that outside of prog / Ultimate / disaster recovery. That is to say, as long as you didn't blow all your cooldowns on something else, it's pretty easy to hit an oGCD for busters. Optimizing damage taken is a bit more in-depth and that's the fun of working with your co-tank and healers and then min/max buff uptimes. This is a thing that'll get better in ShB as well but I'll touch on that more. Tank-unique mechanics are just simply tank-specific mechanics; nothing about them is strictly harder or easier than other mechanics, just "know that you get this because you are the tank." Though, it is worth noting that this means you'll have more fight specific weird things and many variations simply because "this is how this group / PF / etc. does it!!!!" things. I'll throw in tank swaps here and those these days are basically just OT Provoke -> MT Shirk so they're not complicated, just a thing you need to know about when you're doing it. The last thing to be aware of, the MT is responsible for positioning. This is obvious, I guess, but it's also one of those big pain points as people expect X movement. This is fight / group specific and the only real one is M-F for this tier (not counting Chaos positioning for speedrun related things, anyway) as far as an example of what I mean. Just want to bring it up as some fights do have occasional movement and positioning for mechanics and your movement will equal everyone's DPS uptime (or healer's ability to heal, etc.) or simple ability to do mechanics / not wipe (M-F!).
*I have to say generally as there's always something with a non-telegraphed buster. Alphascape was light on this but O10S' dragon add has that untelegraphed cleave and you're stuck counting auto attacks to figure when it's coming.
As for ShB tanking ... I mean, it's basically a bit upgraded defensively. Everyone has access to a relatively low cooldown (~15s-30s) oGCD specifically for tank busters. It'll be harder to get caught with nothing available for them. Damage taken optimization has more room for min/max mitigation uptime% too so it's overall a pretty good change for both the MT and OT slots in terms of getting to do more to take less damage. We'll see how complex tank mechanic stuff is for 5.0 but 4.0 was fairly light all-in-all.
Gunbreaker ... well. Preliminary rotation and pps calculations has it low on damage but that's also preliminary stuff so it's only a thing to be on the lookout for when live hits to see if potency numbers change. Defensively, they're pretty solid since defensive kits are fairly homogenized but they do have a 90s 15% party mitigation and their OT mitigation button is potentially the best but they do have that awkward worst invuln in the game (strictly due to the timer; 1 HP but invuln is pretty good with incidental healing, regens, etc which makes the effect very good just ... not at Hallowed cd timer).; Camouflage is also okay as far as somehow keeping the only RNG mitigation button for some reason but at least it has 10% mitigation baseline and then +10% on average. I personally think they have the best 123 combo in the game as far as both filler damage and mitigation and their defensive kit is basically "same as everyone else but with X." It's hard to shake off WAR/PLD as still being the potentially best pairing but GNB isn't that lacking. GNB (and DRK, for that matter) still have some spots they bring these to the table that PLD doesn't but WAR is basically still the top tank as their kit is nearly perfect. Really, the best thing to mess with PLD will be more consistent big AoE damage so Passage / Veil has to skip AoEs due to their longer timer and fewer opportunities to Cover / more simultaneous tanking encounters. Do both of those and GNB and DRK fit a lot better.
tl;dr: Tanking is easy to execute just your mistakes matter more when you make them. ShB tanking is shaping up to be pretty good with a bit more ability to control damage taken to help healers out / make yourself feel better but not change their GCD count. Gunbreaker has nothing to worry about outside of if nothing changes for their rotation potencies / we all failed math.
Real talk, I still get tankxiety. I loathe PFing things, notably farm things, as a tank due to the expectations people have. Especially with all the "PF STRAT BUT TANKS ARE W HEALERS N DPS YOLO" variations and I just can't be bothered to keep up with all of those when I rarely do things outside of my static and what do you mean tank it at 1 why am I doing that. It's a lot easier with bringing people I know to tell me to stop being stupid about it and/or mock me anyway but yeah. I'll never fault anyone for stepping back from tanking because of the pressure, especially if they PF all the things. I will say if you're in the position to do it and have a consistent group of people to play with, not even a static just people to go with in things, it's a lot better for the anxiety then. At least, personally anyway.
Done everything in the game raid-wise as a tank and blahblahblah credentials.
Tanking in XIV is fairly simple in terms of what you're executing in terms of buttons. Blue DPS is a real thing and our DPS rotations are fairly simplistic. At the same time, them being so simple means the minor points of optimization end up mattering a lot more in what you achieve. So, for instance, WAR meter control can end up being 2-3% higher avg crit in a given fight and more Infuriates meaning more Fell Cleaves which can end up being the difference between low purple and an orange, to use FFLogs terms here; more so if you end up losing a Fell Cleave under Inner Release due to clipping / bad oGCD timing and ding yourself ~50-100 DPS depending on fight length. So there's "depth" in tank DPS but ultimately it's milking your resources for everything and consistency. I highlight all this because it's the big thing coming from DPS-side to be aware of. You still have DPS optimization but it's a lot simpler to execute. But also means each part matters a lot more.
Now, the actual tanking part is split into two, maybe three, categories in terms of complexity. Actual tanking with respect to damage and tankbusters is generally the easiest part. Tankbusters are generally telegraphed* with long cast bars and the only GCD locked mitigation is Inner Beast and you'll rarely use that outside of prog / Ultimate / disaster recovery. That is to say, as long as you didn't blow all your cooldowns on something else, it's pretty easy to hit an oGCD for busters. Optimizing damage taken is a bit more in-depth and that's the fun of working with your co-tank and healers and then min/max buff uptimes. This is a thing that'll get better in ShB as well but I'll touch on that more. Tank-unique mechanics are just simply tank-specific mechanics; nothing about them is strictly harder or easier than other mechanics, just "know that you get this because you are the tank." Though, it is worth noting that this means you'll have more fight specific weird things and many variations simply because "this is how this group / PF / etc. does it!!!!" things. I'll throw in tank swaps here and those these days are basically just OT Provoke -> MT Shirk so they're not complicated, just a thing you need to know about when you're doing it. The last thing to be aware of, the MT is responsible for positioning. This is obvious, I guess, but it's also one of those big pain points as people expect X movement. This is fight / group specific and the only real one is M-F for this tier (not counting Chaos positioning for speedrun related things, anyway) as far as an example of what I mean. Just want to bring it up as some fights do have occasional movement and positioning for mechanics and your movement will equal everyone's DPS uptime (or healer's ability to heal, etc.) or simple ability to do mechanics / not wipe (M-F!).
*I have to say generally as there's always something with a non-telegraphed buster. Alphascape was light on this but O10S' dragon add has that untelegraphed cleave and you're stuck counting auto attacks to figure when it's coming.
As for ShB tanking ... I mean, it's basically a bit upgraded defensively. Everyone has access to a relatively low cooldown (~15s-30s) oGCD specifically for tank busters. It'll be harder to get caught with nothing available for them. Damage taken optimization has more room for min/max mitigation uptime% too so it's overall a pretty good change for both the MT and OT slots in terms of getting to do more to take less damage. We'll see how complex tank mechanic stuff is for 5.0 but 4.0 was fairly light all-in-all.
Gunbreaker ... well. Preliminary rotation and pps calculations has it low on damage but that's also preliminary stuff so it's only a thing to be on the lookout for when live hits to see if potency numbers change. Defensively, they're pretty solid since defensive kits are fairly homogenized but they do have a 90s 15% party mitigation and their OT mitigation button is potentially the best but they do have that awkward worst invuln in the game (strictly due to the timer; 1 HP but invuln is pretty good with incidental healing, regens, etc which makes the effect very good just ... not at Hallowed cd timer).; Camouflage is also okay as far as somehow keeping the only RNG mitigation button for some reason but at least it has 10% mitigation baseline and then +10% on average. I personally think they have the best 123 combo in the game as far as both filler damage and mitigation and their defensive kit is basically "same as everyone else but with X." It's hard to shake off WAR/PLD as still being the potentially best pairing but GNB isn't that lacking. GNB (and DRK, for that matter) still have some spots they bring these to the table that PLD doesn't but WAR is basically still the top tank as their kit is nearly perfect. Really, the best thing to mess with PLD will be more consistent big AoE damage so Passage / Veil has to skip AoEs due to their longer timer and fewer opportunities to Cover / more simultaneous tanking encounters. Do both of those and GNB and DRK fit a lot better.
tl;dr: Tanking is easy to execute just your mistakes matter more when you make them. ShB tanking is shaping up to be pretty good with a bit more ability to control damage taken to help healers out / make yourself feel better but not change their GCD count. Gunbreaker has nothing to worry about outside of if nothing changes for their rotation potencies / we all failed math.
Real talk, I still get tankxiety. I loathe PFing things, notably farm things, as a tank due to the expectations people have. Especially with all the "PF STRAT BUT TANKS ARE W HEALERS N DPS YOLO" variations and I just can't be bothered to keep up with all of those when I rarely do things outside of my static and what do you mean tank it at 1 why am I doing that. It's a lot easier with bringing people I know to tell me to stop being stupid about it and/or mock me anyway but yeah. I'll never fault anyone for stepping back from tanking because of the pressure, especially if they PF all the things. I will say if you're in the position to do it and have a consistent group of people to play with, not even a static just people to go with in things, it's a lot better for the anxiety then. At least, personally anyway.
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Being a healer main all my time in XIV makes me quite a bad tank at times when it comes to gauging what is expected of me, personally. As a healer, I always know what I can handle, and I can carry the party more than a tank can carry a sub-par healer, but as a tank, I never know when to start and stop without getting through like half the dungeon and closely watching how the healer does - tank anxiety is easy to get because I'm always too concerned I'm going too slow or too fast. When leveling DRK through the Stormblood dungeons I caused a couple wipes going through Bardam's Mettle taking extra pulls that I was able to handle when healing, but the average PF healer wasn't quite prepared for. When in doubt, though, just be safe and don't take extra pulls. Generally speaking people give you a lot of deference as the tank since people inherently just follow them.
well usual that first pull in dungeon is all i need to gauge the healer. as in i pull all the way 😈
like if we wipe its only in the begining and i know exactly how long the healer can handle healing. by then il pull accordingly.
also it gauge your party's aoe dps too. im not bias, as i full pull regardless its casters or not 😎
o boy, you havent heard of the dmg calc they change yet? *wink* wink*
hmm? What's this? But the main complaint from sch's is loss of a rotation and dps management not just raw dmg output
I mean Miasma 2 as it exist now is shit with no energy drain to weave with it, Art of War is our new Miasma 2 for aoe packs
Fire Bird Trance and Dreadwyrm Trance sharing a cooldown is awful why would they design it like that.
They beat you over the head so bad with it being
Zenos
They do, but you aren't picking between the two, you can only use Fire Bird after summoning Demi-Bahamut, then you go back to Dreadwyrm after using Fire Bird. If you look at this screenshot the Fire Bird Trance icon inbetween Painflare and Tri-Disaster switches between Dreadwyrm Trance and Fire Bird.
I recently came back from a break but what? What about the Ascian Zenos?
it's just that. An ascian. Elibidus. Somehow Zenos grabbed a random dhalmel's body and merged with it. We'll probably found out in a year or two how
Ascian Zenos is some Ascian inside his body, forgot which one. Real Zenos is in some random Elezen's body, I guess because of the echo? Hence the exact same dialogue, affinity for katanas, and his obsession with the WoL.
Doesn't really solve the problem of summoner still having a 2 minute rotation and about 40 seconds of downtime.
Because the intent is that you're going to alternate between Demi Bahamut and Demi Phoenix every minute.
First 60 secs is going to start with DWT, and since you immediately get 2 aethertrail at level 72, you'll immediately follow up with Demi Bahamut. DWT will automatically change to FBT, but it should have been coming off of cool down by this point.
Next 60 secs, you use FBT and at 80, you automatically summon Demi Phoenix upon hitting FBT (there is no separate Summon Phoenix button). Upon exiting FBT, it changes back to DWT with 40 secs left of cool down at this point.
They probably did it this way so you're at least summoning something big once per minute and it feels like you're doing something big per minute as opposed to blowing everything in sequence and having more than a minute of SMN being in the issue it has now of nothing but filler spells and hard casting your dots.
Ultimately it's just a way to have players spread things out a bit rather than having it possibly be extremely front loaded (or as backloaded like the Bahamut Aetherflow minute is now)
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I thought it was okay since I figured they were maybe building up something like Omega vs Shinryu. Then the Zenos' never interact in SB, and Elezen-Zenos is just in the background talking about the hunt. Speaking of background, still can't help but laugh at Estinien randomly being so close that he saved the WoL from an attack that was inches away from their face.
One minute of filler vs 40s of filler in ShB isn't much different.
15s DWT
45s where you can summon Bahamut for 20s somewhere in there
15s Phoenix
45s gap where you can't summon Bahamut
Separating DWT from FBT would be so much smoother.
Gaius still being alive is a nice little touch, though. Nero has turned out to be a great foil for Cid. Zenos was pretty threatening even before he was an Ascian. Yotsuya didn't really get a redemption...
It's apparently really hard to kill a Garlean.
It's apparently really hard to kill a Garlean.
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