Fighting Games: Talking Netcode with Adam "Keits" Heart (from Iron Galaxy)

[Akelisrain]

T8 with properly implemented roll back is my wet dream.

I dropped SFV season 1, couldn't play my buddy a few towns over without insufferable jitter.

Played KI, it was heaven. Unfortunately, he was not fond of KI.

 

[Hyun Sai]

Another video about the crazyness of games more than 10 years ago having much complete packages than now. Doesn't talk much about the netcode, but as he explains, he shows that Japanese FG devs often just don't look what the other FGs do and try to improve the whole genre. They work in a bubble.

 

[Zombegoast]

Did you read the rest of my post?

And nobody is defending it. Every topic on rollback has people like you steamrolling in to talk about how bad sfv netcode is as if we don't all already know and acknowledge over and over that we are talking about PROPERLY IMPLEMENTED ROLLBACK NETCODE and therefore, not Street Fighter V.

Have you actually watched the video or read the article? Or even read the thread that you're posting in?

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Yes I have, but it's already explaining to the FGC what we know while every major gaming news websites just review Fighting Games and barely give news to them. Kotaku broke new grounds by making an article about Fighting games and the importance of rollback netcode. But have you seen their coverage for GG Strive or from IGN, Gamespot and Polygon? It's depressing and this is true for many other fighting games with Street Fighter V ever getting any form of coverage but it's atrocious netcode is never mentioned other than being good in reviews.

SFV is the poster child of fighting games. It should be introducing people to the fighting game genre but it failed in both offline and in online content and giving a poor example of what Rollback netcode is thus people will loose interes. Those who play for the offline content, play for a while stops and only play it again when they bring friends over.


Journalist needs to pick up on this and address the issues that fighting games are currently facing. They need to call out Japanese developers and call out Capcom and Ono about their supposed fixed of their "netcode". They don't have to be experts in the FGC, just acknowledge that Guilty Gear Strive exist with news and the controversy it's been getting.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

I came across one of Maximillian's videos on KI's netcode in particular from six years ago.

So this isn't something that people have just begun to talk about recently but it's been talked about since the beginning of this gen.

I like that he mentions that rollback is a true next gen feature (talking about Xbox One/PS4 in 2013) and yet we're on the cusp of a new generation with so many games, some that are still going to be using delay based netcode despite the online being the place where a majority of people will likely spend their time.

I haven't played KI myself since the N64 days so I'm interested in trying out it's online to see for myself because these explanations of the benefits have me convinced.

 

[Mzen]

I came across one of Maximillian's videos on KI's netcode in particular from six years ago.

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Doesn't get much more depressing than this. I forgot having actually watched that video all those years ago, and realizing that not a lot has changed since then...

Regarding KI, I'm also trying to get into it right now. Not gonna lie, stepping into it was a bit overwhelming to me, with all that linker, starter, combo breaker stuff, but slowly the pieces are starting to fall into place.

Don't get discouraged and keep doing the tutorials, it will start making sense sooner or later :P

 

[Hyun Sai]

We need more articles like that ah ah ah

https://theoptionselect.com/2019/09...s-to-simplify-everything-besides-online-play/

"Many other modern fighters have gone down this same route of accessibility by removing complicated inputs and including an auto-combo, but also by stubbornly sticking to a shoddy delay based net-code, neglecting basic features like a rematch button, or creating a cumbersome hub world to navigate the online modes.

While details are sparse for now, we look forward to what exactly these changes turn out to be. Regardless, the simplified game play will undoubtedly pull new players into the series just briefly enough for the surely mediocre net-play to push them back out."

 

[Jaded Alyx]

We need more articles like that ah ah ah

https://theoptionselect.com/2019/09...s-to-simplify-everything-besides-online-play/

"Many other modern fighters have gone down this same route of accessibility by removing complicated inputs and including an auto-combo, but also by stubbornly sticking to a shoddy delay based net-code, neglecting basic features like a rematch button, or creating a cumbersome hub world to navigate the online modes.

While details are sparse for now, we look forward to what exactly these changes turn out to be. Regardless, the simplified game play will undoubtedly pull new players into the series just briefly enough for the surely mediocre net-play to push them back out."

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Funny, that site is satire yet that 'article' is absolutely spot on. Weird how that works...

 

[Mzen]

MikeZ just posted a whole new article about rollback netcode on his blog: https://mikezsez.blogspot.com/2019/11/lets-talk-about-rollbacks.html?m=1

I haven't read it yet, but since this comes from the main programmer of Skullgirls (for those who don't know) it should be thread worthy to say the least.

Gotta grab some breakfast and start reading! If someone wants to make a thread out of it to keep spreading that GGPO love, please be my guest.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

I mean, at this point it's just circle jerking if none of these articles get translated into Japanese and make it to the hands and eyes of the people that really matters

 

[Jaded Alyx]

I mean, at this point it's just circle jerking if none of these articles get translated into Japanese and make it to the hands and eyes of the people that really matters

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The video got translated but who knows whether any of these people with power are watching it.

 

[BadWolf]

The video got translated but who knows whether any of these people with power are watching it.

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They still wouldn't care.

GGS is that happening in action.

 

[Deleted member 10551]

We're going to have to make them care by not buying their game and shitting on them for it as much as possible.

 

[lucebuce]

We're going to have to make them care by not buying their game and shitting on them for it as much as possible.

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This is my approach tbh.

 

[Keits]

While details are sparse for now, we look forward to what exactly these changes turn out to be. Regardless, the simplified game play will undoubtedly pull new players into the series just briefly enough for the surely mediocre net-play to push them back out."

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It is absolutely true. I look at things on a 2-way scale on which one end is the abstract idea of "Fun" and the other end is the very measurable "Frustration". Once frustration overtakes fun, people stop playing. It doesn't matter what the source of that frustration is. If the game is the most fun they've ever had but the online is so frustrating that it gives them that odd feeling that they aren't even sure they want to boot the game up to play today, they *will* quit in a short matter of time.

 

[Teh_Lurv]

This might be a controversial opinion, but this might be a rare scenario where the GaaS model is a positive factor in pushing Japanese fighting game developers into improving their netcode. The traditional way of selling fighting games as complete packages with unlockable costumes, colors, etc didn't provide developers much incentive to go beyond the delay-based netcode they've been using for years. Sure the game's netcode might be garbage, but by the time a player figured that out, the developers/publishers got that player's $60.

As fighting games move towards season passes and micro-transactions, developers will need to keep players engaged and playing to want to fork over additional money for costumes, stages, etc. As online play is the bread & butter for the community of long-term players, it becomes developer/publisher financial interest to get that netcode as a smooth as an experience as possible.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

It is absolutely true. I look at things on a 2-way scale on which one end is the abstract idea of "Fun" and the other end is the very measurable "Frustration". Once frustration overtakes fun, people stop playing. It doesn't matter what the source of that frustration is. If the game is the most fun they've ever had but the online is so frustrating that it gives them that odd feeling that they aren't even sure they want to boot the game up to play today, they *will* quit in a short matter of time.

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I can very distinctly remember the moment when I chose to let my Xbox Live subscription expire. It came during a session of online UMvC3, when I realized that I was raging way more than usual even during matches that I still won, simply because my characters' BnBs weren't even reliable online. It's my favorite game of the decade but there's no way I would've kept playing were it not for its offline scene.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

So there's something very wrong with my friend's internet - much of it I'm sure, has to do with him using his landlord's connection via wifi...but anyway, we tried playing KOF2002UM and we're getting over 400 ping between us which is absurd since we both live on the same tiny island in the Caribbean. Anyway, that game runs entirely in slow motion as a result. It has delay-based netcode. Shit experience all round.

Just to confirm my suspicion, I gifted him a copy of SamSho V Special - a game with rollback netplay. We just spent an hour or so playing with very minor and rare hiccups. It was extremely smooth.

I dunno what more needs to be said.

 

[Brunire]

Did SNK do the port for SamSho V Special or was it done by another team? Wondering why they don't seem to be going to rollback for their new releases?

 

[Fancolours]

Did SNK do the port for SamSho V Special or was it done by another team? Wondering why they don't seem to be going to rollback for their new releases?

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Code Mystics made the port. They have their own proprietary netcode with rollback.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Is MvCI using a fixed Kagemusha or is it another rollback?

 

[Jaded Alyx]

Code Mystics made the port. They have their own proprietary netcode with rollback.

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They also - before this - added rollback to KOF 97 on their own time. I'm trying to find out how we get SNK to have them add it to KOF98/2002

 

[Lingering Will]

Another video about the crazyness of games more than 10 years ago having much complete packages than now. Doesn't talk much about the netcode, but as he explains, he shows that Japanese FG devs often just don't look what the other FGs do and try to improve the whole genre. They work in a bubble.

Click to shrink...

I think it's honestly a really disturbing trend on how Fighting Games will pop up with notable useful features only for other fighting games to just not have them. Under Night In-Birth and Skullgirls both have massive in depth tutorials, GGPO in general in nearly all western games, and even just having Button Configuration on the character select screen are all things that have been done already yet have not been standard in all fighting games.

 

[A Strong Latte]

Skullgirls had it all apart from the VF Quest singleplayer mode and you bitches didn't play it

KI Season 1 same thing. And then they patched in a quest made on in s3- bitches didn't play it

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Skullgirls had it all apart from the VF Quest singleplayer mode and you bitches didn't play it

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I played Skullgirls at launch and I found its tutorial to be extremely overhyped, especially when you compared it to something like VF4E.

It didn't even have an in-game command list back then either.

 

[New002]

It is absolutely true. I look at things on a 2-way scale on which one end is the abstract idea of "Fun" and the other end is the very measurable "Frustration". Once frustration overtakes fun, people stop playing. It doesn't matter what the source of that frustration is. If the game is the most fun they've ever had but the online is so frustrating that it gives them that odd feeling that they aren't even sure they want to boot the game up to play today, they *will* quit in a short matter of time.

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Spot on.

 

[Brunire]

Code Mystics made the port. They have their own proprietary netcode with rollback.

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Oh wow. Going to have to keep an eye on Code Mystics ports going forward.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

Is MvCI using a fixed Kagemusha or is it another rollback?

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It's still kagemusha. Just implemented properly.

 

[Neoxon]

Is MvCI using a fixed Kagemusha or is it another rollback?

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It's a fixed version of Kagemusha, one that (as Jaded Alyx said) is actually properly implemented.

 

[mnemonicj]

I bought in to the simple but fun game, Fantasy Strike, and it is amazing how many things it does right.
I've been matched against people with a variable ping (250ms ~ 300ms) and it is still playable with these terrible connections, it's just incredible.

I have the Switch version and it feels amazing to be able to pick up the game, quickly match against someone, play a few matches and put the console to sleep.
I can later come back and start over almost seamlessly without wasting any time on loading menus or "connecting to server" nonsense.
Companies like Arcsys have no excuse to produce experiences that are anything less in quality compare to this indie game.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

It's still kagemusha. Just implemented properly.

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It's a fixed version of Kagemusha, one that (as Jaded Alyx said) is actually properly implemented.

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How ironic, people shit on Capcom fighting games for years but they're the only ones (from Japan) doing the one thing people want the most.

Capcom should licence Kagamusha out.

 

[Hyun Sai]

How ironic, people shit on Capcom fighting games for years but they're the only ones (from Japan) doing the one thing people want the most.

Capcom should licence Kagamusha out.

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Unfortunately, because of SFV and its popularity, Capcom is also responsible for the bad reputation of rollback among the uninformed. That is the tragic thing.

 

[RaySpencer]

T8 with properly implemented roll back is my wet dream.

I dropped SFV season 1, couldn't play my buddy a few towns over without insufferable jitter.

Played KI, it was heaven. Unfortunately, he was not fond of KI.

Click to shrink...

Time to get rid of him, and his trash opinions! Hehe

 

[Hace]

How ironic, people shit on Capcom fighting games for years but they're the only ones (from Japan) doing the one thing people want the most.

Capcom should licence Kagamusha out.

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They shouldn't be commended for a terrible implementation of rollback, that how now poisoned the well for years.

 

[Neoxon]

They shouldn't be commended for a terrible implementation of rollback, that how now poisoned the well for years.

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I think he means the actually good version in MvCI. But yeah, the state Kagemusha was in for SFV did quite a bit of damage to the reputation of rollback netcode for those who weren't in the know.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

They shouldn't be commended for a terrible implementation of rollback, that how now poisoned the well for years.

Click to shrink...

Unfortunately, because of SFV and its popularity, Capcom is also responsible for the bad reputation of rollback among the uninformed. That is the tragic thing.

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shrugged

stupid people will continue to be stupid, just chuck them in the same pile as the ones fueling scrubquote tweets

edit: this is Capcom's Long con, to make it so that other companies won't use rollback and they're the only ones with it XD

 

[Mzen]

Just a small update on the video:

As of today, it is completely translated into Japanese by enabling the corresponding captions on YouTube, so please spread this stuff around the usual social media places. At the very least, no devs should have the excuse or not knowing what rollback netcode is anymore, even if they decide against implementing it.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]