Support the next capcom game that is not marvel and you'll have something. Everybody else, no, not Team Ninja, not French bread, especially not Arc Sus, nobody else.
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Fighting Games: Talking Netcode with Adam "Keits" Heart (from Iron Galaxy)
- Thread starter Jaded Alyx
- Start date
- Smash Ultimate is by & large developed by Bandai Namco, not Nintendo EPD. The only fighting game made by Nintendo EPD is ARMS which, while it doesn't use rollback netcode, actually plays pretty damn well online.
- ASW is at least having discussions about implementing rollback netcode, which is better than them just saying no. What we need to do is (as you said) keep making our voices heard on the subject in a respectful until, as I said earlier, they turn that "maybe" into a yes.
- Capcom already has their Kagemusha netcode at a pretty good place as of MvCI, so SFVI onwards should be in the clear.
Why not Marvel (assuming it comes back)?
See the third bullet point of my first quote response.
Disney will never make the dveelopment or support process for marvel to thrive happen. Why would I want a game from a terrible partner for?
Yeah fuck disney and marvel's bullshit. I hope capcom do a Marvel style game without being dependant on their IP.
BTW more harada bullshit from that interview
BTW more harada bullshit from that interview
I'm pretty sure this is harada trying to explain that unreal engine input lag is a good thing actually because it reduces the difference when you're playing online. Who cares if delay code makes the game feel like it's underwater when it always feels like it's underwater! WEIGHTY COMBAT DESIGN
This I have no idea what he's fucking talking about because the game doesn't do that- kinda sounds like he could be talking about rollback though! which is a shame because t7 doesn't do this at all!
Most of MvCI's problems stemmed from Marvel themselves (for one, Ike Perlmutter is a grade-A asshole in many respects). Unless I'm mistaken, Disney isn't nearly as hands-on regarding Marvel's games as they are with, say, Star Wars.
So you acknowledge the problematic relationship with having marvel or Disney as a partner, what makes you think that would change in a new Marvel. Best case you get is a rushed game with a partial cast you like with support plummeting after a year or so, then you wait for the next project, that's not a good idea.
Real people play anarchy reigns anyway. :P
But in all honesty, fighting games are niche, and being niche makes the Japanese devs kinda immune to the other forces. Like take any pro rollback person , are they not gonna play the games without the good netcode? Of course not.
But in all honesty, fighting games are niche, and being niche makes the Japanese devs kinda immune to the other forces. Like take any pro rollback person , are they not gonna play the games without the good netcode? Of course not.
Tbh I don't buy any DLC, and often don't buy games at all if they don't have rollback. I used to put up with it pre KI but now I cannot be fucked with that shit anymore. It's not worth it for me to put the time in to learn a game at a competitive level, that I will only get to play a couple games at locals once a month. That's if I even go to locals.
I'm interested in Samsho, but I'm not getting it with shitty netcode. Tekken 7 makes me frustrated and mad whenever I play online. Soul Cal 6 is unplayable online in australia due to small playerbase. Why would I fork out 30+ dollars on DLC characters in these games to play them by myself at home?
I could probably play all of these with ease with players in the US, if KI is anything to go by.
Because it's mahval baybee...
Now they should do a capcom vs capcom game next, something they can sink some time and money into without having to please licenseers.
Words cannot express my disappointment in learning that Bleeding Edge wasn't just a fresh take on Anarchy Reigns.
Bingo.
If more people did that maybe we'd have a change. But people have to play new thing, so change is slow.
I am with you on all of this comrade. This was a long time coming and its about time that some kind of action is taken. Fighting games today need good online, and we need crossplay its pretty much mandatory at this stage of life. I may take the stance of not buying no matter how good the gameplay is for this to happen also.
Yep, 100%. Sitting around playing by yourself or rarely with friends on the couch isn't enough anymore. Crossplay in particular should be a must for how much it improves the experience.
What's so frustrating is we are practically at the cusp of brilliance- we have all the ingredients for an amazing online experience with crossplay and rollback but we just haven't had it come together yet.
To mix things up.
MK11 feels a lot worse than the past two games from NRS. I see a lot of matches with packet losses with noticable input lag. This is between both wired and wireless and the ping displayed when finding a match is a lie and is usually 50ms higher. I thought there was supposed to be a threshold that ends a match if the ping gets to high and yet I've seen ping spiking to 800ms.
I watched trueunderdawggaming's Skarlet video and see the exact same experience.
Also SFV continues to be trash. Ono's idea of a netcode is the server and not it's rollback netcode
T7's kinda weird. When I got a 1 bar connection match, the game doesn't slow down to a crawl but my opponent's movement and animation starts to stutter.
MK11 feels a lot worse than the past two games from NRS. I see a lot of matches with packet losses with noticable input lag. This is between both wired and wireless and the ping displayed when finding a match is a lie and is usually 50ms higher. I thought there was supposed to be a threshold that ends a match if the ping gets to high and yet I've seen ping spiking to 800ms.
I watched trueunderdawggaming's Skarlet video and see the exact same experience.
Also SFV continues to be trash. Ono's idea of a netcode is the server and not it's rollback netcode
T7's kinda weird. When I got a 1 bar connection match, the game doesn't slow down to a crawl but my opponent's movement and animation starts to stutter.
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Not a Tekken player, but it sounds like he is referring to a typical input buffer window, where you press or hold the button and it repeats the input for x amount of frames.
Everytime I get reminded of that I can't help but feel either Ono isn't understanding the complaints, or hes deliberately trying to misrepresent the complaints into a matchmaking issue instead of the desynchronization issue. I really hate to feel this way but it should be no way he doesn't know exactly what the problem is by now with the way the SF5 cabs in the arcades desynch.
I'm not gonna buy any new fighting games anymore if it does not have at least good rollback netcode. Xplay is also extremely important. T7 is the last game I gave it a shot but the more you go on higher ranks the less you get good connections all the time. You have to adjust your schedule and it still sucks.
This is exactly what all Bison players deserve.
This is what happens to me on Tekken 7. Characters move at what looks like one frame per second.
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Yep. Next gen the only FGs I'll buy are the one with well implemented roll back netcode. It's sad because I'm sure that means no SNK games for the next 6 or 7 years, but fuck this. I feel like for Tekken 8 there is a 50/50 chance, so we'll see. For SFVI I'm sure there will be rollback, but with Capcom I feel there is also 50/50 chance they screw it up.
Depressing, but when we got so many launches this gen without basic functionalities like 1V1 rematch online, the incompetence is staggering.
We have a good example of the opposite happening where certain games have better support for rollback in older revisions.
Super Turbo and 3s players have generally avoided the 30th Anniversary Collection as the netcode is poor. They've stuck to fightcade, xzone and the 360 versions of HD Remix and 3S Online Edition.
Both communities were pretty keen on being able to move over to an officially supported, hassle free version that was of comparable quality, but that didn't happen as 30AC has a worse online experience than a 10 year old 360 game.
It's not just that publishers are doing a bad job of this, it's that they're doing a worse job than games they released years ago.
If they build off of MvCI's netcode, Capcom should be fine. Hopefully they don't build off of SFV's since its version of Kagemusha is already outdated.
So my experience of Playing on 2DFighter.com and GGPO back in the day was the polar opposite.
GGPO was know for having the best games when played with closer and 2DF was known for having more playability with those further.
Rollback is horrible when it is actively effecting the game all the time and reseting states.
Delay based input if stable can be adjusted to.
i have to give a read of the article, but something I noticed about the conversation:
The US always accused (rightly) Japan of not listening to outsiders (well it works for me in Tokyo!) Etc.
But I've never heard conclusively from the EU side.
our distances are shorter but far denser and complicated. I wonder if out networks are a tad more unstable or have more hops
One thing that people don't talk about enough-
Rollback netcode often looks worse to people because when a major rollback happens, it's quite jarring. "Wtf, I thought [THIS] happened, but instead [THAT] happened and I got screwed over for it."
Delay based netcode, even with pauses in gameplay, seems to be more "intuitive" to people who can rationalize the game slowing down if it has to wait for inputs.
Rollback netcode often looks worse to people because when a major rollback happens, it's quite jarring. "Wtf, I thought [THIS] happened, but instead [THAT] happened and I got screwed over for it."
Delay based netcode, even with pauses in gameplay, seems to be more "intuitive" to people who can rationalize the game slowing down if it has to wait for inputs.
This looks like an example of that point. However, that doesn't make delay based netcode better than rollback. The whole point of rollback netcode is so that you can adjust to it, since the game is treated as basically offline for connections up to a certain ping. Combos that you have memorized the timing to won't change whether you're at a ping <10 or ~80. Delay based netcode CAN'T be adjusted to because it's literally always changing. Your timing at a ping of <10 is going to be different than ~80. And the qualifier "if stable" doesn't mean anything because it's exactly the same with rollback netcode except rollback netcode can handle variance + higher pings.
Please read the article as this point is addressed on page 5.
Under normal circumstances, rollback netcode should be playable up to 200ms. But Capcom managed to fuck up where 100ms is the limit and where they're synchronization issues
Tekken 7 on PC is playable at a 4 bar connection while 3 bars is when input delay starts to take affect.
4 bars in SFV is 100ms and above and you'll be matched with South American player with terrible rollback.
It's why I make arguments for Input delay over SFV's shitty rollback netcode. Because one is a lot more playable than the other.
Tekken 7 on PC is playable at a 4 bar connection while 3 bars is when input delay starts to take affect.
4 bars in SFV is 100ms and above and you'll be matched with South American player with terrible rollback.
It's why I make arguments for Input delay over SFV's shitty rollback netcode. Because one is a lot more playable than the other.
This highlights the problem we spoke about in the interview section of Infilament's article. The ability to set your own delay is dangerous and can lead to someone well meaning, like this person here, thinking that 3rd Strike Online was terrible, when it was in fact, extremely very good. (After patch 1, the launch version did have an issue the team quickly fixed that actually related to bandwidth use and required a waiver from the platform holders).
Giving players the ability to set their own delay means that most of them will always set it to 0, which means their opponent will always see everything they do rolling back horribly. I personally do not think players can be trusted with a choice that feels nice for themselves and ruins their opponents time without a serious amount of education into what that setting does.
Anyway, I appreciate all the discussion here but even in folks arguing *for* rollbacks, I still see a lot of misinformation flying around that could easily be cleared up by reading Infil's article. Yes, I know its 7+ pages long, but I really want to implore those of you interested enough to discuss it here to read it and learn as much as you can.
SFV at its worst in favorable to any sort of delay based netcode, because bad delay is far worse than bad rollback. I don't know how you can think playing underwater and eating inputs is preferable to anything. Even with a teleport fest I can still press a button and expect it to come out
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thank you for addressing this. I recall the first time I was faced with this option, I thought "this is dumb. Why wouldn't I put it on 0?". I had no understanding at the time at all.
Yes. I've shared this link countless times ever since I saw Sajam going over it on his stream. Everyone should read it.
Plan to read it when I get a chance, shopping at the moment ;).
IIRC the input delay was something that the CPU can prune off during a lag spike without needing to roll back?
So if I have a 5 frame start up plus 2 frame input delay the CPU can "remove" up to two frames without any visual indication?
There fore if everyone has it at zero every lag spike = roll back?
I bought 3S and was a player on 2d fighter at the time. And I remember being very disappointed in the experience.
I still play it occasionally with my friend but only offline.
No. The delay is how long we wait for our opponent's inputs before playing our own (going to the next frame). If it is set to 0, literally every single action will cause a rollback because your inputs take time to get across the wire to your opponent. If your opponent is at 30 or lower ping, which should result in a 1-2 frame delay, but you set it to 0, your opponent will see 1-2 frame rollbacks on every single thing you do.
KI has its online delay set to 3, and we do not allow players to change it. This means that with a ping of up to 90, in which we can reasonably expect to get our opponent's inputs in about 3 frames, that we wont see any rollbacks at all most of the time. With a ping of 150, we will see 1-2 frame rollbacks like we did in the above example.
The difference here is that a 150 ping gets you access to most of the world, while a 30 ping doesn't even usually get you to a neighboring town.
Anyway, 3rd Strike Online is excellent online. Both players should set a reasonable delay value (2 or 3).
I completely trust Iron Galaxy on this, given Third Strike Online Editions netcode is why my friend on the other side of the planet and me still play it over SFV, which's netcode is atrocious. It's so bad we legit plan on playing a couple matches locally when we meet up just so we actually did play some serious matches in V.
I know everyone's milage may vary based on their connection and other factors but 3S Online is the most fluid Street Fighter Online VS has ever been for me. Pity that these versions are still stuck on last gen consoles but the netcode is what keeps my PS3 plugged in.
I know everyone's milage may vary based on their connection and other factors but 3S Online is the most fluid Street Fighter Online VS has ever been for me. Pity that these versions are still stuck on last gen consoles but the netcode is what keeps my PS3 plugged in.
In terms of 3D style fighters no. The one thing 3D has going for it is slower basic attacks allow for more hiding of input delay.
That said, I've already made the decision I will not buy another 2d fighter that has input delay netcode ever again. DOn't care how good it is. Samsho has already lost a sale over this. played it at EVO, liked it, but won't buy it.
I can even forgive SFV because at least they tried.
In my experience, 3SOE's netcode and the GGPO/Fightcade experience is often criticized because of two things a lot of people didn't realize back then and some still don't nowadays: Wi-Fi connections and the ability to manually set delay.
You know what the silver lining for me is in the middle of this whole mess? This is the first time that I see so many people from the FGC and beyond finally getting sick of shitty online play and demanding for changes to be made.
It used to be that folks just had the usual complaints about laggy matches and whatnot, but eventually just accepted that this is the way things are and roll with it. Obviously this forum is a vocal minority compared to the general population, but as someone who first tried playing KOF98 on the Stone Age of Kaillera and had my first taste of not so great online play in a fighter, I've never seen people getting so loud about this subject before.
I'm really hopeful that if this keeps up, we'll start seeing some big changes sooner rather than later. And you know what? It's about goddamn time.
Spread that rollback article and Keits video everywhere, retweet MikeZ whenever that smug bastard comments on this topic (love you Mike <3), do whatever you can think of, we need to keep this train going. As someone who has freakin' Sol-Badguy as an avatar, I can't tell you how fucking annoying it is knowing that I'm yet again about to experience another GG with shitty online. Worst tradition ever.
It used to be that folks just had the usual complaints about laggy matches and whatnot, but eventually just accepted that this is the way things are and roll with it. Obviously this forum is a vocal minority compared to the general population, but as someone who first tried playing KOF98 on the Stone Age of Kaillera and had my first taste of not so great online play in a fighter, I've never seen people getting so loud about this subject before.
I'm really hopeful that if this keeps up, we'll start seeing some big changes sooner rather than later. And you know what? It's about goddamn time.
Spread that rollback article and Keits video everywhere, retweet MikeZ whenever that smug bastard comments on this topic (love you Mike <3), do whatever you can think of, we need to keep this train going. As someone who has freakin' Sol-Badguy as an avatar, I can't tell you how fucking annoying it is knowing that I'm yet again about to experience another GG with shitty online. Worst tradition ever.
If it's is hidden from the player, could the system itself choose the input delay based on the ping on a per match basis?
And could it be updated moment to moment in a game, if the ping gets close to the edge of the window, increase it and keep it from going to rollback?
To wring extra performance out of the system.
Or does the inconsistency in the size of the input delay in a single game cause issues?
I'm sure I could tolerate it, I play Super Turbo that already has inconsistent input windows anyway. But I'm not sure what general user testing would report.
With 3rd Strike online, I've never played against a friend online, only randoms who could have set anything as their input delay.
All this talk I'd love to try it out now.
You can also blame a lot of the "old guard" for this. They had the ability to push developpers to do this, but they just repeated ad vitam nauseam that offline was the only way to play FGs, and shame on you if you ever suggested they had to be designed for the online.
Not everybody is lucky enough to have access to a local scene but the "fuck you I got mine" was surely prevalent back in those days.
This literally defeats the purpose of rollback, but yes, you could do this. Delay based netcode already works this way. The purpose of rollback is so that the delay never has to change so your gameplay always feels consistent.
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Yep, this is exactly why I make threads about rollback and crossplay.
Keits
I don't know if you can speak to this, but there's some concern among SFV players about stages other than training stage making laggy connections worse. It sounds like something that could just be superstition fueled by confirmation bias, but given how temperamental SFV's performance can be, maybe it's true? Do you think it's possible that some stages are "laggier" than others? No one has done any systematic testing on this issue.
Great explanation in the video btw, and I loved the point about how rollback doesn't just make individual matches better, but improves matchmaking potential and allows for better skill-based matching. All devs should listen to this.
I don't know if you can speak to this, but there's some concern among SFV players about stages other than training stage making laggy connections worse. It sounds like something that could just be superstition fueled by confirmation bias, but given how temperamental SFV's performance can be, maybe it's true? Do you think it's possible that some stages are "laggier" than others? No one has done any systematic testing on this issue.
Great explanation in the video btw, and I loved the point about how rollback doesn't just make individual matches better, but improves matchmaking potential and allows for better skill-based matching. All devs should listen to this.
It won't change until you're willing to not experience it. Boycott Arcsys and SNK over this and they'll change. That's what it will take.
Performance needs to be extremely high priority for teams working with rollbacks because the game needs to re-simulate (gameplay logic only) many frames in just one frame. It is possible that if some stages make the game's performance worse (ie it wont run at a steady 60fps even offline), causing the game's ability to rollback to see ill effects and not perform quite as nicely as it would in a stage with less going on.
In a properly optimized game, this would be a non issue. All stages and conditions should conform and keep the game running at 60fps with no dips no matter how hard the player characters are trying to stress it. This, as we know, is rarely reality.
I guess I'm just phobic of video and audio hitches and glitches caused by rollback.
A consistent delay with minimal rollback sounds like the best, so giving the end user the option to adjust is insanity.
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Where is the Smash Community on this? All I hear is "Smash online is terrible" since the days of Brawl but are any leading figures talking about this at all? Or is online Smash not considered to be all that big/important in the Smash sphere?
I can't help but think back to when Sakurai recommended people use a LAN adapter instead of WiFi and a lot of people were upset about it. Or people complaining that Smash is P2P, just like other fighting games. Is it just ignorance?
I can't help but think back to when Sakurai recommended people use a LAN adapter instead of WiFi and a lot of people were upset about it. Or people complaining that Smash is P2P, just like other fighting games. Is it just ignorance?
You are choosing a game wildly changing your input delay and freezing, hitching and dropping inputs over the alternative; the game always feeling identical but having corrections/rollbacks that cannot be detected by the human eye the vast majority of the time. Your reasoning and fears are mostly based on some worst case situations that would absolutely be worse on delay based 100% of the time.
Rollback is a pure upgrade to delay based. Delay based in similar conditions has zero redeeming value.
I dont play smash but i know that their community put effort in providing an online environement for melee called faster melee. Its dolphin netplay with custom coded input lag reduction in the engine to compensate for netcode input delay. From what i hear its fantastic to play.