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Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,628
SFV's implementation has one very major and serious issue that remains unfixed since launch. Read that article I linked for more info on that.

All netcode solutions, whether driven by input delay or rollbacks, must keep both systems running completely in sync. This means both systems are showing each player the same frame at the same time, or as close to this as possible. Even though most fighting games try to lock the framerate at 60fps, it is not simply enough to sync at the beginning of a match and assume the players will remain in sync for the whole fight. Many issues outside of networking, such as consoles overheating, computers performing operating system functions, or someone temporarily overloading their CPU, can cause performance drops which will put them out of sync with their opponent.

The consequences of not correcting this sync are catastrophic. Consider a rollback system where player A is being shown frame 20, but player B is being shown frame 23, across a network delay of 3 frames. Player B will send input for their frame 23 to player A. Because they are on frame 20, the network delay means they will receive the input on their own frame 23, which is just in time to execute it and will not have to roll back at all. Meanwhile, player A sends their input for frame 20 to player B. With the network delay, player B will receive this input on their own frame 26, which will repeatedly cause lots of very uncomfortable 6-frame rollbacks.

Note that this rollback is entirely one-sided; only the player who is ahead of the other will experience the effects of the bad connection. Tony Cannon, in many ways the founder of modern rollback with his invention of GGPO, theorizes that this is one of the flaws of Street Fighter V's rollback system, and proper clock syncing might go a long way to addressing SFV's poorly received online play. Some fans have even run their own tests and come to similar conclusions

Hm... This is really interesting. Thanks!
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
From what I understand, implementing GGPO in UE4 is extremely difficult, to the point that Neverrealm basically wrote their own rollback netcode. Honestly, it'll be far more useful if Neverrealm open sources their netcode, or if somebody writes a turn-key solution specifically for UE4. See also: cross-play, its basically the exact same issue.
 
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Jaded Alyx

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,352
From what I understand, implementing GGPO in UE4 is extremely difficult, to the point that Neverrealm basically wrote their own rollback netcode. Honestly, it'll be far more useful for Neverrealm open sources their netcode, or if somebody writes a turn-key solution specifically for UE4. See also: cross-play, its basically the exact same issue.
NRS has never used UE4. What's the issue with crossplay?
 

skillzilla81

Self-requested temporary ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,043
From what I understand, implementing GGPO in UE4 is extremely difficult, to the point that Neverrealm basically wrote their own rollback netcode. Honestly, it'll be far more useful if Neverrealm open sources their netcode, or if somebody writes a turn-key solution specifically for UE4. See also: cross-play, its basically the exact same issue.

As said, NRS doesn't use UE4. Power rangers is using GGPO and has crossplay, and seems to work great.

Ki does as well, doesn't it?
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,181
This video discusses netcode in fighting games and offers insight into why properly implemented rollback netcode is not only better than delay-based netcode, but is essential in maintaining and expanding the playerbase in fighting games.



I haven't finished watching, but the interesting thing for me is right near the beginning where they talk about how rollback allows you to matchmake with FAR more people due to how much better it handles ping between you and your opponent.

I don't need to watch this to already know everything they are going to say.
Its all bloody obvious. And why some fighting game developers don't sem to understand it baffles me.
 
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Jaded Alyx

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,352
Difficult to retrofit after the fact, non-trivial to implement from day one, zero turn-key solutions available. There's a lot of parallels between rollback netcode and cross-play, IMO.
This isn't exclusive to UE4. If rollback (and crossplay) is planned from the start, it's not an issue at all (as said in the video). I don't think many people reasonably expect everyone to do like NRS did.
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,181
As they say in the interview the problem was solved in 2007!! by GGPO.
We are almost in 2020. Why on earth do fighting games still have a problem!?
Goddman it winds me up.
 

skillzilla81

Self-requested temporary ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,043
iirc, BFTG actually used proprietary rollback netcode. An example of UE4 game launched recently that uses GGPO with no problems would be Omen of Sorrow.

Yeah, I think at this point, when people say "GGPO," they really just mean rollback netcode. GGPO is just the name brand.

(I meant to say rollback, not ggpo, is basically the point I'm making, lol)

This isn't exclusive to UE4. If rollback (and crossplay) is planned from the start, it's not an issue at all (as said in the video). I don't think many people reasonably expect everyone to do like NRS did.

Yeah, like...Daisuke and Co have known about GGPO forever. Strive is, potentially, setting up ASW for the next generation of their fighters, and they quite obviously haven't implemented GGPO. That could mean another console generation of ASW fighters on input delay netcode. It's ridiculous.
 

Bob White

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,931
As they say in the interview the problem was solved in 2007!! by GGPO.
We are almost in 2020. Why on earth do fighting games still have a problem!?
Goddman it winds me up.

It's because no one fucking cares to call the devs out and actually make a stand. It's getting to the point that it's obvious no change will happen going into the next gen. Fucking big dick ass SSD 4k next gen super dupe shit... and we still can't get good netcode in KOF or GG. wtf?! Yet watch all the major FGC free PR staples step in and prop both those games up leading up to their release. Watch as those games are rewarded and show up at any tourney that will have them for even MORE free publicity and a "we don't really care. we're just happy to play!" attitude from all the attendees.

Don't make combo/tech/tutorial videos for a new delay based game. Ban the games and don't let commentators bring them up unless it's explaining WHY such and such game isn't allowed at a tournament. Like, it's on us to DO SOMETHING since major gaming sites and the Angry Joe/Jim Sterlings of the world don't play fighting games. They don't care. Who does that leave?

People like Valle, Aris, Yipes, or James Chen. But they don't care enough to actually rattle a cage and REALLY call out these devs because they can't burn any bridges AND they have access to locals whenever they want, so... it's not all that pressing to them. The people who can make the loudest statement on the issue are the people who are somewhat in bed with the companies they have issue with.

We need someone to be like "Fuck it, game is black listed. Fix your shit. End of story". Sounds drastic but you don't think Mr. Wizard saying tekken and GG are banned from EVO unless they make better netcode WOULDN'T have an immediate impact? Send a message or nothing will change until Riot.
 
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Jaded Alyx

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,352
It's because no one fucking cares to call the devs out and actually make a stand. It's getting to the point that it's obvious no change will happen going into the next gen. Fucking big dick ass SSD 4k next gen super dupe shit... and we still can't get good netcode in KOF or GG. wtf?! Yet watch all the major FGC free PR staples step in and prop both those games up leading up to their release. Watch as those games are rewarded and show up at any tourney that will have them for even MORE free publicity and a "we don't really care. we're just happy to play!" attitude from all the attendees.

Don't make combo/tech/tutorial videos for a new delay based game. Ban the games and don't let commentators bring them up unless it's explaining WHY such and such game isn't allowed at a tournament. Like, it's on us to DO SOMETHING since major gaming sites and the Angry Joe/Jim Sterlings of the world don't play fighting games. They don't care. Who does that leave?

People like Valle, Aris, Yipes, or James Chen. But they don't care enough to actually rattle a cage and REALLY call out these devs because they can't burn any bridges AND they have access to locals whenever they want, so... it's not all that pressing to them. The people who can make the loudest statement on the issue are the people who are somewhat in bed with the companies they have issue with.

We need someone to be like "Fuck it, game is black listed. Fix your shit. End of story". Sounds drastic but you don't think Mr. Wizard saying tekken and GG are banned from EVO unless they make better netcode WOULDN'T have an immediate impact? Send a message or nothing will change until Riot.
Why would they ban them from tournaments though? Netcode has nothing to do with tournament play.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,285
Calgary, AB
Love listening to Keits talk about netcode. He's been pretty vocal on Twitter for the past year plus about how fighting game fans need to let developers know that rollback is a necessity for them, not just to ensure good matches, but to ensure the game keeps its community going. I hope that it picks up steam, because the difference in MK11 compared to MKX (at launch) is night and day.

...and also, I love, love, love Killer Instinct. He's absolutely right, part of the reason that game stuck for me was that I kept getting matched with people like me (aka pretty bad at the game), where other competitive fighting games often lock me into fighting with people who are far beyond my skill level.
 

Bissniss

Member
Nov 11, 2019
45
Great Video, I remember playing KI from Germany with People from the US was mind blowing for me.
Now I do understand why it is possible.
 

Bob White

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,931
Why would they ban them from tournaments though? Netcode has nothing to do with tournament play.

Because major tournaments are now used to drop major PR related things. Trailers, release dates, characters, and any free pop a big tournament moment trending on social media could give a game/company.

If you tell a company "Hey, we're taking that annual free PR away from you" shit would send a much needed message. I'm sorry, but that interview with the GG dev broke something in me. Fuck the niceties. I didn't ASK you to make a game, so don't come to me with "making game is hard. adding thing to make game playable is hard". You are making a game, that is your job to MAKE THE GAME and all that it entails.

It's like a car company not adding seat belts but still releasing the car and getting no push back because "I just love driving, you know?" Fuck that.
 

Primus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,830
Rollback netcode and crossplay won't happen industry-wide until the Japanese FGC stands up and demands it. It is patently obvious that aside from Capcom, none of the Japanese developers actually care about what Western players want.
 
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krg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,901
Because major tournaments are now used to drop major PR related things. Trailers, release dates, characters, and any free pop a big tournament moment trending on social media could give a game/company.

If you tell a company "Hey, we're taking that annual free PR away from you" shit would send a much needed message. I'm sorry, but that interview with the GG dev broke something in me. Fuck the niceties. I didn't ASK you to make a game, so don't come to me with "making game is hard. adding thing to make game playable is hard". You are making a game, that is your job to MAKE THE GAME and all that it entails.

It's like a car company not adding seat belts but still releasing the car and getting no push back because "I just love driving, you know?" Fuck that.
lol, there's no such a thing as free PR. They usually sponsor those tournaments and TOs need that money.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,849
SFV's implementation has one very major and serious issue that remains unfixed since launch. Read that article I linked for more info on that.

MvCi's is pretty good, but a few actual game design choices exacerbate some of the issues.



Number of players being low means finding less optimal matches (connection wise) but that is what rollback systems are supposed to mitigate anyway. SFV has a very specific issue that MvCi does not, which is that the players are not time synced. You can read about it in the article I linked in my first post in this thread.

In regards to implementation, would you consider it a massive investment for SFV to fix it or are you wondering why it still hasn't been the case?
 

ScOULaris

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,587
Every single person involved in designing a fighting game today needs to watch this video and take it to heart, Japanese devs in particular. This problem has been solved for years, and yet we still have to suffer through disappointing online in so many big-franchise fighting games today. A game like Killer Instinct (2013) should be the gold standard for how every other fighting game should handle netcode and matchmaking online.
 

luoapp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
505
One thing I found interesting is how Stadia deals with the lag issue. It's very like Google employs something similar to GGPO given they boasted "negative-lag" in their marketing campaign. And judge from the real world feedback, they mostly archived lag-free streaming gaming experience. But just how difficult to port a game if their version of GGPO is used? Is it a major contributing factor to its reduced performance compared to similarly spec-ed PCs?
 

Dog

Cat
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,067
Great Video, I remember playing KI from Germany with People from the US was mind blowing for me.
Now I do understand why it is possible.
Yeah it's godlike! I played Luce and he shanked and stabbed me all the way from Pakistan while I'm in the U.K. felt smooth AF. Same thing for my American chum SinkFla.

I wish more games did so well.
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,181
Japan is the problem.

They know all about rollback and GGPO and all the benefits but they just refuse to use it.
They are dragging the fighting game community down with their bullshit.

Bar Capcom I should say. Who seem to finally, finally have wised up.
 

Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
Developers who insist on using outdated delay-based netcode are the climate change deniers of the FGC.

Pretending the problem doesn't exist, shrugging off the issue as "not my problem," kicking the can down the road until there's no player base left to serve, etc.

Yeah, like...Daisuke and Co have known about GGPO forever. Strive is, potentially, setting up ASW for the next generation of their fighters, and they quite obviously haven't implemented GGPO. That could mean another console generation of ASW fighters on input delay netcode. It's ridiculous.
All that effort spent on making cool looking/playing games, so little effort spent into making sure that people can actually play the games. It's incredible, really.

It's because no one fucking cares to call the devs out and actually make a stand. It's getting to the point that it's obvious no change will happen going into the next gen. Fucking big dick ass SSD 4k next gen super dupe shit... and we still can't get good netcode in KOF or GG. wtf?! Yet watch all the major FGC free PR staples step in and prop both those games up leading up to their release. Watch as those games are rewarded and show up at any tourney that will have them for even MORE free publicity and a "we don't really care. we're just happy to play!" attitude from all the attendees.

Don't make combo/tech/tutorial videos for a new delay based game. Ban the games and don't let commentators bring them up unless it's explaining WHY such and such game isn't allowed at a tournament. Like, it's on us to DO SOMETHING since major gaming sites and the Angry Joe/Jim Sterlings of the world don't play fighting games. They don't care. Who does that leave?

People like Valle, Aris, Yipes, or James Chen. But they don't care enough to actually rattle a cage and REALLY call out these devs because they can't burn any bridges AND they have access to locals whenever they want, so... it's not all that pressing to them. The people who can make the loudest statement on the issue are the people who are somewhat in bed with the companies they have issue with.

We need someone to be like "Fuck it, game is black listed. Fix your shit. End of story". Sounds drastic but you don't think Mr. Wizard saying tekken and GG are banned from EVO unless they make better netcode WOULDN'T have an immediate impact? Send a message or nothing will change until Riot.
I like the sentiment in this post a lot, but like, terrible netplay was the #1 reason why I started driving to tournaments in the first place. Had to find offline sessions to get any enjoyment out of it, lol.
 

Mesoian

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,431
I like the sentiment in this post a lot, but like, terrible netplay was the #1 reason why I started driving to tournaments in the first place. Had to find offline sessions to get any enjoyment out of it, lol.

I won't lie, Marvel 3's player base drying up around 4th dan made me go to a few local game nights. Didn't EXACTLY find what I was looking for but...people hunt for alternatives all the time.
 

Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
I won't lie, Marvel 3's player base drying up around 4th dan made me go to a few local game nights. Didn't EXACTLY find what I was looking for but...people hunt for alternatives all the time.
It's kind of wild to think about it in these terms in retrospect, but I actually wouldn't live in Atlanta right now if it wasn't for Marvel vs. Capcom 3 and its community.
 

Zero-ELEC

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,562
MĂ©xico

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
As they say in the interview the problem was solved in 2007!! by GGPO.
We are almost in 2020. Why on earth do fighting games still have a problem!?
Goddman it winds me up.
Because GGPO (the code) works fantasically for sprite-based 2D fighters which aren't resource intensive.

It doesn't translate to newer 3D games which are resource intensive. You have to custom build it and bake it in from day 1.
 
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Jaded Alyx

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,352
You have to custom build it and bake it in from day 1.
And that's what we're asking, and they refuse to do it. This isn't new either. People have been asking for YEARS and they've known this. It's a solved problem. We shouldn't be here hoping for Tekken 8 or DOA7 to have rollback - Tekken 7 and DOA 6 should have already had it from launch.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
And that's what we're asking, and they refuse to do it. This isn't new either. People have been asking for YEARS and they've known this. It's a solved problem. We shouldn't be here hoping for Tekken 8 or DOA7 to have rollback - Tekken 7 and DOA 6 should have already had it from launch.
It doesn't matter if you don't care about sales outside Japan. This is the big issue with ASW games not featuring it. Aside from DBZ, the games aren't really aimed internationally in a significant way.

This makes far less sense, for say Tekken, though.
 
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Jaded Alyx

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,352
It doesn't matter if you don't care about sales outside Japan. This is the big issue with ASW games not featuring it. Aside from DBZ, the games aren't really aimed internationally in a significant way.

This makes far less sense, for say Tekken, though.
Pretty sure every single fighting game sells much, much better outside of Japan. By a HUGE margin, especially nowadays.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,026
Since we all know this is really specifically about ASW at the moment, I just want to know how difficult would it be for them to do this after their game is so far into development.

Do they have the time, money, manpower and know-how to pull it off without becoming the next SFV, all while still doing everything else that is to get their game out
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,181
Because GGPO (the code) works fantasically for sprite-based 2D fighters which aren't resource intensive.

It doesn't translate to newer 3D games which are resource intensive. You have to custom build it and bake it in from day 1.
That's exactly the oposite of what the guy in the video said.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
That's exactly the oposite of what the guy in the video said.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019...games-use-delay-based-and-rollback-netcode/5/ (more Keits at the end of this btw) but this is the tradeoff here-

The act of converting objects in computer memory to a format that can be saved and loaded is called serialization, and the game state for every single frame must be serialized and saved in case we need to roll back to it later. This means your game state serialization, which can be a time-consuming operation depending on the data, must be lightning fast and very well optimized. Depending on how the game has been built, you may even need to change how the data is stored and how the various systems of your game use it to gain the necessary performance. If you build your game with rollback in mind from the start, it can lessen the burden, but adding rollback to an existing game can mean a lot of system-wide changes to the very core of your game. Michael Stallone, engineer at NetherRealm Studios, estimates that it took his team two man-years to build and optimize serialization systems in Mortal Kombat X when they retrofitted the game with rollback netcode.

If your game needs to roll back a large number of frames, once the previous state has been deserialized and loaded, the game must re-simulate all these frames back to the present (and then also serialize all of them!), and this must be done quickly and in the background. This means your game logic must be independent from everything else in your gameplay loop; you need to be able to run many frames of logic without rendering to the screen, or waiting on the network, or using any number of other systems that normally operate every frame. Depending on the engine you chose, or how much customization to the engine-provided game loop systems you've done, separating and turning off these subsystems may be surprisingly hard.

Because all these things need to be performed in one game frame, in addition to all your normal game loop operations, optimization in general is another key concern. Perhaps those costly CPU cycles that your fancy particle system or cloth simulation uses are now putting you over your performance budget. Or maybe you've been playing fast and loose with your console's power, because the need to be extremely efficient wasn't there when you initially built the game. Stallone says that MKX, under its old delay-based solution, took only an average of 10ms of its 16ms budget to run a complete frame due to the extra horsepower of the PS4 and Xbox One. When initially switching to a nonoptimal, naive rollback solution, he says the cost to run a frame more than tripled to 32ms, which forced his team to re-evaluate almost every single in-game system and look for performance gains.
There are going to be real tradeoffs with going to rollback netcode- it's not something you can just plug and play raw in any new modern game as-is. When it's an old-school 2D sprite game you don't have any real constraints on your system resources when implementing it. For a modern game that's going to be pushing those resources as far as it can go, you are going to have to design around those resources constraints.

And I kinda suspect that with Guilty Gear, the graphics are a gigantic priority as the game serves as a living tech demo.
 
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Jaded Alyx

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,352
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019...games-use-delay-based-and-rollback-netcode/5/ (more Keits at the end of this btw) but this is the tradeoff here-


There are going to be real tradeoffs with going to rollback netcode- it's not something you can just plug and play raw in any new modern game as-is. When it's an old-school 2D sprite game you don't have any real constraints on your system resources when implementing it. For a modern game that's going to be pushing those resources as far as it can go, you are going to have to design around those resources constraints.

And I kinda suspect that with Guilty Gear, the graphics are a gigantic priority as the game serves as a living tech demo.
No.