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Fighting Games: Talking Netcode with Adam "Keits" Heart (from Iron Galaxy)

Jaded Alyx

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,369
This video discusses netcode in fighting games and offers insight into why properly implemented rollback netcode is not only better than delay-based netcode, but is essential in maintaining and expanding the playerbase in fighting games.



I haven't finished watching, but the interesting thing for me is right near the beginning where they talk about how rollback allows you to matchmake with FAR more people due to how much better it handles ping between you and your opponent.
 
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lucebuce

lucebuce

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Oct 25, 2017
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Blackage said:
Need FGC Translated to give this Japanese subs heh.
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Kalentan

Kalentan

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Oct 25, 2017
44,655
Still watching the video but he's right about if the netcode is good and so you can still play players who have higher pings, then you can start to prioritize matching players of similar skill level more heavily.
 
lucebuce

lucebuce

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Kalentan said:
Still watching the video but he's right about if the netcode is good and so you can still play players who have higher pings, then you can start to prioritize matching players of similar skill level more heavily.
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You already see this in MK11. While the game does suffer from not having a connection quality modifier to restrict matchmaking searches, the game will ALWAYS prioritize people of your skill/ranked level even if that means giving you opponents that are about 100-150ms. And it can still work because you can decline matches if it goes over 150 but you're rarely gonna get situations where you get matches with people massively below/above your skill level.
 
Ragnarok Flames

Ragnarok Flames

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Oct 25, 2017
2,631
I trust Keits. dude knows exactly what he is talking about. What we really need is more Eastern Devs to start using Roll-Back.
 
Mesoian

Mesoian

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Oct 28, 2017
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KI's matchmaking is pretty incredible. Even now, with the game only having about 200 people playing at peak, it still managed to, over the course of a week, put me in gold with 60w/60l record.
 
Kalentan

Kalentan

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Oct 25, 2017
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"It's an old technology and it's not a particularly complicated technology, it's just a matter of developers saying, "Yes, this is valuable to us and we want to do this." and getting the message out there to say, "Look what this did for Killer Instinct. It has a thriving scene after development has even stopped. People are finding matches lightning fast in this game. They can play people all across the world. This is magic. You have to do this.""

Damn.
 
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Jaded Alyx

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,369
Kalentan said:
"It's an old technology and it's not a particularly complicated technology, it's just a matter of developers saying, "Yes, this is valuable to us and we want to do this." and getting the message out there to say, "Look what this did for Killer Instinct. It has a thriving scene after development has even stopped. People are finding matches lightning fast in this game. They can play people all across the world. This is magic. You have to do this.""

Damn.
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This is why it's so frustrating when Namco, ArcSys, SNK etc. continue to ignore this and persist with delay-based netplay.
 
Stowaway Silfer

Stowaway Silfer

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Oct 27, 2017
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This is really informative and I didn't know much about this, thank you for sharing. I especially liked how he talked about implications of implementating rollback netcode beyond the immediate result of the game playing better.
 
Kalentan

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,655
Jaded Alyx said:
This is why it's so frustrating when Namco, ArcSys, SNK etc. continue to ignore this and persist with delay-based netplay.
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Made worse by this part:

Interviewer: "...Which begs the question, "Could you just throw GGPO into a current fighting game and get solid rollback netcode, or is it more complicated than that?"

Keith: "You don't have to design for rollback from the get-go. You can retrofit it. NetherRealm proved this. They retrofitted it to a very old engine and they did a great version of it too..."

It then shows the GDC conference where they showed that it took 4-12 concurrent engineers for 9 months.

When does GG Strive come out again?
 
Yunyo

Yunyo

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Oct 25, 2017
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Keits understands that proper MATCHMAKING goes in hand with the rollback systems.

I still want the ability to search out low ping matches though; numerical ping shown and everything.
 
Blackage

Blackage

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Oct 27, 2017
1,182
Kalentan said:
Made worse by this part:

Interviewer: "...Which begs the question, "Could you just throw GGPO into a current fighting game and get solid rollback netcode, or is it more complicated than that?"

Keith: "You don't have to design for rollback from the get-go. You can retrofit it. NetherRealm proved this. They retrofitted it to a very old engine and they did a great version of it too..."

It then shows the GDC conference where they showed that it took 4-12 concurrent engineers for 9 months.

When does GG Strive come out again?
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Late 2020, so here's hoping. They also put out that survey around the time they said "ehhh you know we hear about it but we don't know if it fits." So hopefully the survey result is like 99% "Yeah you need rollback," and they switch gears and do their homework.
 
VanillaCakeIsBurning

VanillaCakeIsBurning

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Oct 26, 2017
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I've never played a game that had rollback netcode so I didn't really understand how much of a benefit having this over the usual delay was.

But this video convinced me that this needs to be a priority in the future for fighting games.
 
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Jaded Alyx

Jaded Alyx

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Oct 25, 2017
35,369
Silfer said:
This is really informative and I didn't know much about this, thank you for sharing. I especially liked how he talked about implications of implementating rollback netcode beyond the immediate result of the game playing better.
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Yes. I live in the Caribbean and I've been able to play people as far away as Los Angeles and Canada in games with rollback netcode. With delay-based and a 3 bar or higher filter, I would never be matched with them, effectively limiting the people I can fight in Ranked modes, and dramatically increasing wait times.
 
Kalentan

Kalentan

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Oct 25, 2017
44,655
Just realized has Rollback been used in any 3D Fighters? Your DoA's, Tekkens, Soul Caliburs, and so on.
 
Neoxon

Neoxon

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Oct 25, 2017
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Kalentan said:
Ah.

I've had issues with SFV but didn't MvCi's take on it actually do really good? It's just... no one played it?
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Yeah, MvCI's version of Kagemusha is actually great. So if nothing else, SFVI should have pretty good netcode if they build off of MvCI's version of Kagemusha.
 
Virtua Sanus

Virtua Sanus

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Nov 24, 2017
6,492
We are honestly nearing a new golden age for fighting games and a huge part of that is rollback. If more Japanese devs do not wake up and recognize the need for it right now they are going to be shocked by how worthless their legacy brands seem when stuff like the League of Legends fighting game releases.

Shame it seems too late for games like UNICLR and perhaps Guilty Gear Strive though. These are honestly the kind of games that need it most.
 
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Jaded Alyx

Jaded Alyx

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Oct 25, 2017
35,369
Neoxon said:
Yeah, MvCI's version of Kagemusha is actually great.
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You know, people say this all the time - and I have no reason to doubt them as I've never played the game online. But I wonder if there is actually any real proof out there that kagemusha is improved in MvC over SFV. Couldn't it be a case of less people playing = less matches = less noticeable issues (if that even makes sense). I'm just really curious about it and I hope it really is true.
 
Keits

Keits

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Oct 29, 2017
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Kalentan said:
Ah.

I've had issues with SFV but didn't MvCi's take on it actually do really good? It's just... no one played it?
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SFV's implementation has one very major and serious issue that remains unfixed since launch. Read that article I linked for more info on that.

MvCi's is pretty good, but a few actual game design choices exacerbate some of the issues.

Jaded Alyx said:
You know, people say this all the time - and I have no reason to doubt them as I've never played the game online. But I wonder if there is actually any real proof out there that kagemusha is improved in MvC over SFV. Couldn't it be a case of less people playing = less matches = less noticeable issues (if that even makes sense). I'm just really curious about it and I hope it really is true.
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Number of players being low means finding less optimal matches (connection wise) but that is what rollback systems are supposed to mitigate anyway. SFV has a very specific issue that MvCi does not, which is that the players are not time synced. You can read about it in the article I linked in my first post in this thread.
 
Neoxon

Neoxon

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Jaded Alyx said:
You know, people say this all the time - and I have no reason to doubt them as I've never played the game online. But I wonder if there is actually any real proof out there that kagemusha is improved in MvC over SFV. Couldn't it be a case of less people playing = less matches = less noticeable issues (if that even makes sense). I'm just really curious about it and I hope it really is true.
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I've personally played both & I can assure you that MvCI's netcode is well above SFV's. Likewise, traffic doesn't impact the quality of your game's netcode. SamSho barely has anyone online & the game still runs like ass online.
 
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skillzilla81

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Jaded Alyx said:
You know, people say this all the time - and I have no reason to doubt them as I've never played the game online. But I wonder if there is actually any real proof out there that kagemusha is improved in MvC over SFV. Couldn't it be a case of less people playing = less matches = less noticeable issues (if that even makes sense). I'm just really curious about it and I hope it really is true.
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Well, there's no one-sided rollback in MvC, so, there's that.

lucebuce said:
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Cursed.

His reaction will never not make me laugh out loud.
 
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Jaded Alyx

Jaded Alyx

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Oct 25, 2017
35,369
Neoxon said:
I've personally played both & I can assure you that MvCI's netcode is well above SFV's. Likewise, traffic doesn't impact the quality of your game's netcode. SamSho barely has anyone online & the game still runs like ass online.
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Good to hear, but I didn't mean traffic, I meant "smaller player pool"
 
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Jaded Alyx

Jaded Alyx

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Oct 25, 2017
35,369
skillzilla81 said:
Wouldn't that typically make netcode worse, since you don't have many people playing near you and machmaking has to go further out to connect you to somebody?
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Could do, I did think about that as well. I know the game didn't sell all that well and didn't last very long, but how were the wait times for matches?
 
VanillaCakeIsBurning

VanillaCakeIsBurning

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Oct 26, 2017
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So rollback helps out games with smaller populations even by increasing the range of acceptable matches.

I now understand the anger people have for this issue.

This imo needs to be a priority going forward, this and crossplay since the restrictions that were preventing that seem to be dissipating.
 
skillzilla81

skillzilla81

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Jaded Alyx said:
Could do, I did think about that as well. I know the game didn't sell all that well and didn't last very long, but how were the wait times for matches?
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I only played the first month or so in ranked, but it was fine. I played tons of casual matches, though, and the netcode was really great.
 
Dog

Dog

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Oct 25, 2017
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I've been playing Samsho for the first time lately and woof does it feel ass. Input delay should be fucking banned for fg's lol

Rollback and crossplay need to be the thing for every title.
 
Primus

Primus

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Oct 25, 2017
3,835
Thanks Keits for this interview, really brings home the issues here.

Rollback netcode and crossplay are the two biggest things needed in fighting games now. Both techs grow the playerbase from the start, and keep the playerbase from becoming a wasteland (see: PC ports of most fighting games) within weeks of launch.
 
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