The origin of the Daleks is constantly being adjusted, even in old Who this was the case, but they're still Davros's creation no matter what.
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Fictions with a Purely Evil Species are Lazy and Worrisome
- Thread starter AlgusUnderdunk
- Start date
OP
OP
Yeah, I have a hard time keeping track of what they're supposed to be, but the times we do get a reasonable or thoughtful or even just a curious Dalek is usually really interesting.
OP
OP
Your avatar actually reminded me of something I really enjoyed in the Paper Mario series, that some Koopa Troopas/Goombas/Bob-Ombs/etc. aren't members of Bowser's Army and just live their own lives doing their own thing.
I don't mind evil characters or species in stories when they are used properly. An entirely evil character or race is fine when they are more of a metaphor or a physical manifestation of one of the story's themes that the characters are meant to grapple with. And their complexity needs to be reflective of that theme.
There is an issue though of people using these concepts and not really getting that point and using the idea without understanding it.
That doesn't even include issues of when making an evil character or species and including their own racial biases when doing so. Like depicting overtly evil species based on negative stereotypes of non white cultures, or using elements of real world cultures without thinking of context of what you are saying by doing so.
In short it really depends on if you are making a true group of people or something that's more of a representation of an idea. And still be careful when doing so and show your work to other people.
There is an issue though of people using these concepts and not really getting that point and using the idea without understanding it.
That doesn't even include issues of when making an evil character or species and including their own racial biases when doing so. Like depicting overtly evil species based on negative stereotypes of non white cultures, or using elements of real world cultures without thinking of context of what you are saying by doing so.
In short it really depends on if you are making a true group of people or something that's more of a representation of an idea. And still be careful when doing so and show your work to other people.
The thing about the Daleks is that they aren't a naturally occurring species, they were made the way they are by an evil individual, so they aren't really an example of what you're talking about in the OP. Even when they are people turned into cyborgs they are altered mentally to be a Dalek. Everything about the Daleks is unnatural.
OP
OP
True, but they're intelligent enough to reason, and they have been shown to be capable of change (the Dalek that absorbed a snippet of non-Dalek DNA in the 10th doctor era, and Rusty the Dalek in the 12 doctor era.) Even simply showing the Daleks agreeing or disagreeing with one another makes them significantly more interesting.
I think always chaotic evil CAN work, but most often is it just lazily used. A cheap way to have loads if disposable mooks.
Dragon age awakening has a kindof subversion of that trope. The darkspawn are pretty much always depicted as always chaotic evil. Barely sentient and implied in the lore to be ether the wrath of a vengeful god, or somekind of magical bioweaon form ages past that got out somehow. Awakenings reveals that it IS possible for darkspanw to be made intelligent and capable of altruism and basic morality. And that faction of darkspawn just wants to have a future that doesn't involve constant war of annihilation.
Thing is, their method of reproduction is like a fantasy version of xenomorphs. Unfortunate mmbers of other races come into contact with the disease they carry and mutate into broodmothers which birth thousands of darkspawn in their lifetimes. So while there is a possibility of peace with certian individual darkspawn, they cannot form a civilization that is peaceful with the rest of the world because their method of reproduction does not allow it.
Dragon age awakening has a kindof subversion of that trope. The darkspawn are pretty much always depicted as always chaotic evil. Barely sentient and implied in the lore to be ether the wrath of a vengeful god, or somekind of magical bioweaon form ages past that got out somehow. Awakenings reveals that it IS possible for darkspanw to be made intelligent and capable of altruism and basic morality. And that faction of darkspawn just wants to have a future that doesn't involve constant war of annihilation.
Thing is, their method of reproduction is like a fantasy version of xenomorphs. Unfortunate mmbers of other races come into contact with the disease they carry and mutate into broodmothers which birth thousands of darkspawn in their lifetimes. So while there is a possibility of peace with certian individual darkspawn, they cannot form a civilization that is peaceful with the rest of the world because their method of reproduction does not allow it.
Even in their case there have been 3 Daleks that understood that Daleks kinda suck.
Generally they can't be reasoned with, they can be tricked and threatened. The only time that change do so because of something messing with their genetic programing, and even when that happens they are still usually filled with hate (the first Dalek in new Who hated itself, the one from the 12th era hated Daleks.) The only real exception being the human/dalek hybrid from the 10th era, but he was essentially an entirely new species.
They aren't dumb or hive minded, they're individuals, but they are created genetically to feel almost nothing but hate for anything different from them because that's how Davros made them. They're not really an example of writers making a problematic fictional race based on Black people or another race/ethnicity, they are a statement on how racism is bad with a bit of sci-fi horror thrown in.
My biggest issue with purely evil beings is that their cultural and technological development doesn't make sense if they're too evil.
Like do Daleks have musicians? Artists? How did their language, architecture, etc. come about? Are there Dalek accountants just chilling somewhere? Orcs in the LOTR I guess get a pass can they reference everything to Melkor and Sauron.
Much of human development was the result of mundane peacetime advancement. In a lot of fictional works it seems like something as simple as agriculture or metal working would have to be gifted to the evil race.
Which is why something like the Vogons from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy work so well because they're bureaucratically evil which seems infinitely more plausible than a straight up murderous race.
Like do Daleks have musicians? Artists? How did their language, architecture, etc. come about? Are there Dalek accountants just chilling somewhere? Orcs in the LOTR I guess get a pass can they reference everything to Melkor and Sauron.
Much of human development was the result of mundane peacetime advancement. In a lot of fictional works it seems like something as simple as agriculture or metal working would have to be gifted to the evil race.
Which is why something like the Vogons from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy work so well because they're bureaucratically evil which seems infinitely more plausible than a straight up murderous race.
I think the only time I cared about this Vogon's in Hitchhiker's Guide... I think they're making fun of stuffy old British bureaucrats and land in lawful evil territory lol But it's a goofy-intended caricature I can get behind.
Yes! You said it better
Yes! You said it better
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Same deal with Daleks and Davros. He made them look like crusty boogers, he manufactured their minds, and manufactured their robotic conveyances. They know how to multiply, so they just make more of themselves, and kill stuff. They're honestly more like Xenomorphs than orcs.
Dalek's aren't a naturally occurring species, they were created by an individual. Their technology comes from their creator and his people as well as their own advancements that they make towards the end of universal genocide.
I get where you're coming from but the Judge does a variety of mundane every day activities. It's just usually sandwiched in between genocide and other crimes agaisnt humanity.
Definitely lazy and probably a "nazi" equivalent effect, its just easier to write "pure evil" than do the hard work in fleshing out the characters and backstories into "why evil" and "how evil" - I guess its a matter of audience maturity as well as who the audience is - it was just easier for the writers to write "cowboys good, indians bad" and sell those westerns to their audiences back then. Similarly "Tarzan white man good, black people savage bad", very, very lazy as well as harmful, but its what sold. Hell Edgar Rice B. KNEW he was writing drivel, but it sold, so he kept writing it.
Sir Walter Scott wrote The Talisman in 1825 (he wrote a series of novels about the crusades) and portrayed Saladin in a very sympathetic manner, and was highly criticized for it.
Things have not changed much, it all depends on who the writers are and who their target audiences are - 24, Homeland still gets into lazy racist territory whereas I think TNG and DS9 have FANTASTIC bad people.
Sir Walter Scott wrote The Talisman in 1825 (he wrote a series of novels about the crusades) and portrayed Saladin in a very sympathetic manner, and was highly criticized for it.
Things have not changed much, it all depends on who the writers are and who their target audiences are - 24, Homeland still gets into lazy racist territory whereas I think TNG and DS9 have FANTASTIC bad people.
Animals with a society (or animals portrayed as people) is an interesting offshoot of this, because there's media where predator and prey are clumsily coded as real world groups, yet they're still portrayed too closely to real world animals who cannot coexist peacefully.
I can see why people find it problematic but I guess growing up with Warhammer and earlier D&D has made me not really see it a big deal. I can easily separate fiction from real life.
Though I am laughing now at my reaction to playing Warcraft the first time and going "Wait GOOD Orcs???"
Though I am laughing now at my reaction to playing Warcraft the first time and going "Wait GOOD Orcs???"
I like how The Wandering Inn has the protagonist recognize that the goblins are not intrinsically evil, but then it also feels like massive shades of white savior for being an Isekai where the protagonist tells the people who were apparently to stupid to recognize their own bigotry so ehh
Side note but can writers stop making every evil faction the Nazis? It's getting a bit lazy and repetitive.
The Empire are space nazis
The Death eaters are magical Nazis
The Daleks are (also) space nazis
Kahn and his people are, again, space nazis
The Quincy's are....idk magical nazis
You'd think we'd have enough evil people in the modern day to draw inspiration from instead of keep going back to the Nazi well.
The Empire are space nazis
The Death eaters are magical Nazis
The Daleks are (also) space nazis
Kahn and his people are, again, space nazis
The Quincy's are....idk magical nazis
You'd think we'd have enough evil people in the modern day to draw inspiration from instead of keep going back to the Nazi well.
OP
OP
The Nazi analogy doesn't work either for some species since Nazis themselves, though horrific monsters, were still humans. Separating them out into their own species removes the concept that that sort of monster can arise from any species, not just some special group.
Depending on the story I kind of don't mind. I don't need to see orc deserters or conscientious objectors. I don't think it really adds anything to the story being told. It can add to the world building for sure, but if you're dealing with elves, dwarves, Rohan, Gondor, Sauron and his urk-hai, Hobbits, Suromon and his armies, I wouldn't call him lazy for not including yet another branch of less evil orcs.
I can't think of the last time I've seen this done straight. I'm honestly bored of the subversion.
I disagree. Some of them are entertaining to read... well mostly from a WH40K perspective.
All the Chaos gods are interesting in some way. I guess it helps that every race/species in 40k are just different degrees of evil and there is no good in that universe.
All the Chaos gods are interesting in some way. I guess it helps that every race/species in 40k are just different degrees of evil and there is no good in that universe.
Tell the modern day people to stop going back to the Nazi stuff too please.
What if they just eat your face instead?
Pure evil characters can be very good.
Evil races that have shitty under/overtones are bad, but "pure evil" can be great.
OP
OP
Well that's the thing. Evil is purely subjective. So 'Pure Evil' tends to not make sense in anything outside of an analogy.
...Even David Warner portraying Evil itself apologized after accidentally hitting a minion.
This isn't true, though. Horror is full of pure evil for a start.
It does get frustrating because it falls apart under examination. Like, even outside the "full evil species" thing and looking at general ghosts or demons in fiction and a lot of the time their actions make zero sense unless they're literally just trying to fuck with the protagonist/audience.
The even more annoying thing is when a story wants a nice wrap up for the ending so there's a button that kills all the bad guys right away so there's no protracted peace treaties or massacres or prison camps or anything.
I get wanting to have unsympathetic bad guys for the heroes to fight, but that's what zombies, robots, and Nazis are for.
The even more annoying thing is when a story wants a nice wrap up for the ending so there's a button that kills all the bad guys right away so there's no protracted peace treaties or massacres or prison camps or anything.
I get wanting to have unsympathetic bad guys for the heroes to fight, but that's what zombies, robots, and Nazis are for.
OP
OP
The best horror has malevolent forces that aren't truly evil, but realistic. Monsters that can be scared or happy or confused. Hell, sometimes Evil isn't even a motivating force.
One of the fun parts of the Discworld is that Terry Pratchett's goblins, trolls, vampires, werewolves, zombies, and other classic monsters can be pretty wholesome and very decent people, but most elves are straight up jerks by nature.
The best horror for me have creatures that are fully evil, and inhuman
I don't mind as I don't think they are on the same moral compass as we are. Like the Orks in Warhammer, they just love to fight and maim, can't even call them "evil". A lot of the examples in the OP are of races that just live a different life until they are forcibly made to integrate into the earth human moral compass.
Yeah, it really sucks. Only time it works is when it's stuff like literal devils or whatever.
Despite Crossed largely being absolute trash, it eventually addresses this with the Smokey plot line. A crossed named Smokey starts developing a greater intelligence. Initially he just uses this to get better at killing. After awhile though, he starts desiring to form basically a modern, human society. With the help of some people he abducts, he actually ends up somewhat succeeding.
He eventually starts desiring a family too and seeks out other crossed that have become intelligent. He eventually does, though things don't pan out as he wanted.
Despite Crossed largely being absolute trash, it eventually addresses this with the Smokey plot line. A crossed named Smokey starts developing a greater intelligence. Initially he just uses this to get better at killing. After awhile though, he starts desiring to form basically a modern, human society. With the help of some people he abducts, he actually ends up somewhat succeeding.
He eventually starts desiring a family too and seeks out other crossed that have become intelligent. He eventually does, though things don't pan out as he wanted.
The way to do a species that is what we would judge as completely evil from our point of view based on their action, is to make them incapable of understanding evil in the first place. Simply make them do the actions instead of trying to attribute to them a human psyche, but with a twist.
Examples include beings that are so alien that they are just beyond emotions, or highly intelligent but without consciousness as we experience it. Something like the aliens from Blindsight.
To give something emotions and consciousness based on our own and them adding a behavior aligned with our view of psychopathy can only get you so far if you want to give those traits to an entire group of individuals that have also formed complex social groups.
Not saying that everything should be ants, but that is the one way to have a species where you can say that every single one of them would destroy another consciousness different from them without question.
Examples include beings that are so alien that they are just beyond emotions, or highly intelligent but without consciousness as we experience it. Something like the aliens from Blindsight.
To give something emotions and consciousness based on our own and them adding a behavior aligned with our view of psychopathy can only get you so far if you want to give those traits to an entire group of individuals that have also formed complex social groups.
Not saying that everything should be ants, but that is the one way to have a species where you can say that every single one of them would destroy another consciousness different from them without question.
A friend of mine ran a game with a lawful good Mindflay who was a zen monk who found a way to deal with the brain eating issue by eating moss that is used to put their thoughts and memories in, and he ate it to get his food this way. Was rather interesting to hear about how he was able to deal with it as a DM and came up with situations for the player to deal with the issues that come with being a mindflayer.
The thing about "Murder hornets" is that they are parasitic and kill other native bees and wasps. These are not native to the states and kill off other types of pollinators. So the name I think is justified here. Other animals being seen as evil, no, they shouldn't be seen as such.
What's interesting about these is how the creators were using the Nazis as a way to connect the audience to show how evil these groups were and probably their own history with the Nazis in general due to when these creators were around.
The Empire are based more on how Buck Rogers and old serials and how they presented the Nazis and other groups that were represented as "Evil" from the 1940s and 1950s. So the use of them for this fit because a lot of older people seeing the movies would recognize what the Empire was and why it was bad.
The Death eaters and the Daleks are created by British creators who have a very different view point of the Nazis, because of their history and influence on what happened in the UK and naturally a lot of the British audience of these stories would recognize the history of WWII in these villains.
Khan and his people from Gene was again influenced by his time in the army during the war, and what he learned about at that time and his own views on the Nazis and their actions.
Not sure about kubo and the Quincys.
The thing is that all of these shows and movies are heavily influenced by the time period that a lot of these creators either grew up in, or lived through, and their view of the Nazis were the ultimate of evils. And for ages that was true for most of the world since their shadow cast a huge net across so much of our history. And because for most they are the most obvious of visual view of evil for what they did and how they did it. There wasn't much nuance in their action, no gray to it. So a lot of people draw from that aspect.
Same, I'd like to see a villain just be evil. Nothing ambiguous about it. Just a person that wants to be horrible because they can and they choose to be this way. Or a group.
But that isn't them being malicious, their not trying to be evil, their doing what they've done for nearly 16,000 years. The problem was that humans unintentionally being of neglect and incompetence introduced them to the States, we're the villains of the story not them. That's the issue with most of these kind of stories, the animals aren't being monsters, they don't know they've transported 1000s of miles, it's humans causing issues.
I'm not saying their not an issue but that's an issue for experts who know what their doing to handle not for randos who have no idea the difference between a Wasp and a Hornet and think all Bees and Wasps are evil because the media decided to fearmonger and encouraged people to do so.
I love purely evil factions, as goofy as they are. It's part of their charm and makes them entertaining in their own twisted way. That being said, they should have diverse ranks. Purely evil species only makes sense in cases like undead led by an evil necromancer/malevolent deity or demons and their cultists led by an evil demonologist/literal devil, and even in those cases it's better if there is some sort of wicked but reasonable justification for it all like demons gaining power from eating souls or such and thus inherently at odds with mortal creatures. Immortality and/or supernaturality creating messed up morality that doesn't concern itself with feelings of those pesky mortals is also a fantasy trope I personally enjoy.
In case of more "grounded" species, I agree. I don't find it only lazy and worrisome, but also immersion breaking. It just doesn't make much sense that entire populations of sentient creatures would just have some kind of evil gene that would compel them to go against conventional morality from cradle to grave for no good reason.
In case of more "grounded" species, I agree. I don't find it only lazy and worrisome, but also immersion breaking. It just doesn't make much sense that entire populations of sentient creatures would just have some kind of evil gene that would compel them to go against conventional morality from cradle to grave for no good reason.
In the Forgotten Realms setting in D&D, RA Salvatore's books about Drizzt have a character named King Obould who is an orc. Oboulds dream is a sovereign orc nation. He is blessed by the orc gods to achieve this dream. He's a pretty great character in the books.
The problem with him is that he is constantly depicted as evil. He's evil because he's waging a war to give his people land that they cannot otherwise have peacefully. He is evil because he wants them to be able to live in the sun without hiding in caves.
His alignment is literally evil in every stat section about him. But why? He doesn't really do anything evil. He's not drinking the blood of babies or going around raping and pillaging. He's doing something that every nation has done and they aren't classified as evil. He is blessed by the evil orc god but does not exhibit any evil motives. I always found this strange.
Slightly off topic but his armor and weapons were always pretty badass to me.
The problem with him is that he is constantly depicted as evil. He's evil because he's waging a war to give his people land that they cannot otherwise have peacefully. He is evil because he wants them to be able to live in the sun without hiding in caves.
His alignment is literally evil in every stat section about him. But why? He doesn't really do anything evil. He's not drinking the blood of babies or going around raping and pillaging. He's doing something that every nation has done and they aren't classified as evil. He is blessed by the evil orc god but does not exhibit any evil motives. I always found this strange.
Slightly off topic but his armor and weapons were always pretty badass to me.
Some of the best horror is unexplained. Why does everything need a background or reason for being terrible? It's neither lazy or worrisome.
Are there tropes or creatures/evil based on racist tropes? Of course and those are easy to spot usually. But to make a blanket statement and say every evil needs an origin or reason for being evil and if it doesn't, it comes across as lazy, is just wrong.
As soon you obsess over a background, you get things like endless terrible prequels to the Aliens series or Disney movies explaining villain origins no one asked for so Disney can make a buck.
I hate the over explanation of villains or the sob stories they get now very often. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it doesn't have to be blanket statement to require it.
Are there tropes or creatures/evil based on racist tropes? Of course and those are easy to spot usually. But to make a blanket statement and say every evil needs an origin or reason for being evil and if it doesn't, it comes across as lazy, is just wrong.
As soon you obsess over a background, you get things like endless terrible prequels to the Aliens series or Disney movies explaining villain origins no one asked for so Disney can make a buck.
I hate the over explanation of villains or the sob stories they get now very often. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it doesn't have to be blanket statement to require it.
The crux of the problem comes down to portraying a "race" of creatures or entities, if presented as sapient and self-aware, as inherently "evil". Zombies are built to prey on the living and aren't (in most cases) thinking entities. Tyranids in Warhammer have no good or evil intent at all, and most have no individual sentient minds. They exist to perform a function that happens to be destructive to everyone else.
When it comes to stuff like orcs, it doesn't really require a lot of work or explanation at all to quickly draw the difference between a malignant culture, and individuals. Warhammer orks are maybe the thorniest to deal with, because are imagined as creatures who are intelligent, but need to fight to live. Therefore, they have created a culture which strongly advocates the only thing orks can do is find people to fight. An interesting quality there, is Warhammer tends to not portray orks as being "evil". They're happy and excited about fighting, and aren't trying to murder people because they hate anyone. But you can see how the whole idea might be seen as iffy.
There generally isn't a problem when you're writing about a specific evil being or singular entity. Explanation isn't even necessary if, as some have posted above, the evil is in service of mystery and horror. Individual things can, for whatever reason you imagine, become "evil". The problem is usually when you invoke the concept that races can be intrinsically evil.
Some fantasy traditionally gets around this by having races being literally possessed by an "evil force" at the cosmic level. Then they are essentially demons in the classic mythological sense. This can work, if demonic comparisons are put to the forefront. D&D has a large number of intelligent monsters which are part of a species, but are also supernatural beings and by nature malevolent. Beholders are a well-known example.
When it comes to stuff like orcs, it doesn't really require a lot of work or explanation at all to quickly draw the difference between a malignant culture, and individuals. Warhammer orks are maybe the thorniest to deal with, because are imagined as creatures who are intelligent, but need to fight to live. Therefore, they have created a culture which strongly advocates the only thing orks can do is find people to fight. An interesting quality there, is Warhammer tends to not portray orks as being "evil". They're happy and excited about fighting, and aren't trying to murder people because they hate anyone. But you can see how the whole idea might be seen as iffy.
There generally isn't a problem when you're writing about a specific evil being or singular entity. Explanation isn't even necessary if, as some have posted above, the evil is in service of mystery and horror. Individual things can, for whatever reason you imagine, become "evil". The problem is usually when you invoke the concept that races can be intrinsically evil.
Some fantasy traditionally gets around this by having races being literally possessed by an "evil force" at the cosmic level. Then they are essentially demons in the classic mythological sense. This can work, if demonic comparisons are put to the forefront. D&D has a large number of intelligent monsters which are part of a species, but are also supernatural beings and by nature malevolent. Beholders are a well-known example.
I think the manga Frieren at the Funeral handles it's purely evil species of demons quite well. They're presented as highly developed monsters who possess the ability to mimic human speech purely to manipulate people as the ultimate predator of humankind. It's really effective at making them an otherworldly threat. Read chapter 14 and the arc it starts to see for yourself
The main issue really just comes from a system that simplifies Morality, one of the most complicated topics in existence into a 3x3 table and makes literal spells and gameplay mechanics off of it.
You can't have nuance in a system where I can cast "Detect Evil" on a person to see how naughty they are.
You can't have nuance in a system where I can cast "Detect Evil" on a person to see how naughty they are.