that's nuts - I had no idea and I'm surprised I didn't see more about it.
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Feminist Frequency: Queer Tropes vs Video Games (3 New Eps) [Up: Episodes released]
- Thread starter Menome
- Start date
Sure, I agree, trans women are still women and if Link identifies as a woman, he should be let into the Gerudo City. That said, Link isn't a trans woman, does not identify as female, and in fact we are given zero indication that he identifies as anything other than male, so this point is moot.
That said, yeah, the beard "gag" was gross, and should never have been included.
It's not just about the amount of women in games it's also about how women are represented even in male focused games. In that regard there have been very notable changes since Feminist Frequency started.
It was like 4-5 years ago. Right around the time GamerGate became a thing.
What I am saying is that the game does now give any indication that a trans woman would be allowed in the city. Hell, they don't even ask if you are a guy before they trow you out. People who recognize that link is using women clothing don't even CONSIDER he might be a trans woman.
Yeah, that's fair enough. I think gaming as a medium in general (and really, just media in general, but that's a whole other issue) needs to become better at portraying and normalizing non heteronormative and cisgendered sexualities and gender identities, so I won't argue there.
Yup.
Yup.
Yup. Time to move on and actually watch the videos, folks!
this is going to be interesting!
they attack you with their butts.
God Hand comes to mind:
they attack you with their butts.
Episodes 1-2-3
OP
OP
Thanks for the heads up, got my timezones mixed up and thought these were becoming available in a couple of hours. Didn't realise all three were releasing on the same day as well, that's awesome.
While I can see why this character would be an example, I don't really feel like he is portrayed as "gay" just flamboyant. There's an argument to be made in that flamboyancy does not always equal "gay"... now I know that is EXACTLY what queer coding is. All I'm saying is that I don't think queer coding is applicable to every instance of a flamboyant character/villain. Ghirahim definitely comes off as narcissistic and flamboyant, but I never once thought "he strikes me as gay" but I can see how a queer person might feel offended by what they could interpret as yet another queer coded villain, so I don't know. I'm not trying to defend characters like this perse, and I do see queer coding in plenty of other games.
I just don't think that every time a villain is flamboyant/narcissistic=queer coding. When they flirt etc. (my memory of Skyward Sword is fuzzy as hell, so correct me if Ghirahim does do this) and do things explicitly to hint at a sexual preference I find that far more egregious... Which is not to say characters like Ghirahim don't skirt the damn line.
Impressed that she mentioned 2 beat em ups and no Poison =O
But I guess her transness is more of a trivia than actual queer coding as she is just coded as a prostitute.
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But I guess her transness is more of a trivia than actual queer coding as she is just coded as a prostitute.
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That third thumbnail makes me go "uh oh", because though the memory may be hazy, I do still remember the heinous way Larry 6 handled its sole gay male character. At the time I was a clueless cis boy in my early teens, and I still picked up on what a really shitty way that was to treat a character, so that's really saying something.
I am now fully prepared to be horrified.
Impressed that she mentioned 2 beat em ups and no Poison =O
But I guess her transness is more of a trivia than actual queer coding as she is just coded as a prostitute.
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Ah, see... did not remember this.
it's a pretty well established trope that existed long before video games. and like all tropes it sort of just exits in stories and is never seriously examined. it's a shortcut to tell you this character is definitely evil. which is the bad part of the trope. it's fine to have a queer villain you just need a good story justification for it.
Just finished watching all three episodes. The videos are quite thorough and cover a lot of ground, whilst being easy to follow and understand. Great work by Carolyn Petit.
A lot of the scenes shown are from games I haven't played. I do remember that particular scene and character in Breath of the Wild though, and was really disappointed by it when I came across it in my playthrough. BotW is a step forward in some ways, but as stated by Carolyn, it is still quite... outdated in some ways, which was putting it kindly.
On the topic of progress, it is nice to see more games slowly incorporating positive LGBTQ representation. There's still so much more progress that needs to be done, however. But I did enjoy seeing some of the positive examples in the video.
A lot of the scenes shown are from games I haven't played. I do remember that particular scene and character in Breath of the Wild though, and was really disappointed by it when I came across it in my playthrough. BotW is a step forward in some ways, but as stated by Carolyn, it is still quite... outdated in some ways, which was putting it kindly.
On the topic of progress, it is nice to see more games slowly incorporating positive LGBTQ representation. There's still so much more progress that needs to be done, however. But I did enjoy seeing some of the positive examples in the video.
Just finished watching the videos. Overall, enjoyed it, and learned a lot.
I do kind of wish the "bury your gays" trope got a limelight, but I get the series is short and dense as it is. I guess that trope is a little more personal to me because it kind of stings when I see queer characters routinely get the worst ending. But that's my only real complaint.
Overall, Carolyn Petit did a good job~
I do kind of wish the "bury your gays" trope got a limelight, but I get the series is short and dense as it is. I guess that trope is a little more personal to me because it kind of stings when I see queer characters routinely get the worst ending. But that's my only real complaint.
Overall, Carolyn Petit did a good job~
These were really good and informative, and you can tell everyone who worked on the production was prepared to handle the counter-arguments. The production values and format have improved too. Provided a lot of food for thought.
Great work from Carolyn Petit. Really fascinating.
Yeah, I would love to hear the take on Poison because what started as a misstep somehow over the years became a real character with fans. Poison has gone from something negative to a fan favorite, playable character with some pretty great merchandise.
Yeah, I would love to hear the take on Poison because what started as a misstep somehow over the years became a real character with fans. Poison has gone from something negative to a fan favorite, playable character with some pretty great merchandise.
Have to watch this tonight. Just bringing up a more recent example, I was happy with how Anthem portrayed some of the NPCs as LGBT (casual mentions of wife or husband) even though the interactions were minimal and then playing yesterday they fell into a huge trope: a gay fashion designer showed up, weird German accent and all :/
Update: I was not fully prepared.
Holy shit. The caricature character art. The lisp. Gary Fairy. And I didn't even remember about Shablee! What the fuck, Sierra?!
I don't even know why I'm surprised. Larry 5 had blackface in it.
Yeah, the whole game is just distasteful from top to bottom. It very quickly becomes a juvenile Dirty Harry-esque power fantasy where laws and regulations just exist to get in the way of some modern day cowboy jackass. "Back off, Uncle Sam! I have a badge, and that means I should be above the law!" I mean, the protagonist doesn't literally say that, but that sure as hell isn't due to any self-awareness on the game's part.
I guess that's about what you can expect from a Darryl F. Gates game titled Open Season.
finished.
oh man, some of these examples were truly vile.
the 3 videos were really well done, kudos to feminist frequency.
oh man, some of these examples were truly vile.
the 3 videos were really well done, kudos to feminist frequency.
The videos could have been more in depth but the point came across well and they're educational, not history of video games stuff. The examples chosen where good, especially the points about gta v in the final episode. The final episode really got to the heart of the problem of offering stereotypical NPCs you can choose to kill.
Nice how each is structured to show how video games are moving forward, while highlighting problems in a way that I can probably see right away with some of the games I own.
Plus, the "Hayes code"? I knew there was an old school moral code in 30s and 40s Hollywood but didn't know the name.
Nice how each is structured to show how video games are moving forward, while highlighting problems in a way that I can probably see right away with some of the games I own.
Plus, the "Hayes code"? I knew there was an old school moral code in 30s and 40s Hollywood but didn't know the name.
TIL that Scar and Ursula (I just watched TLM for the first time last week!) are queer coded. That's... what?
I can also take side with Tunahead about how I was definitely "too young" to play any LSL games at the time (6 was also my first foray!) and thought some characters were treated rather poorly.
I don't want this to come off as dismissive, because it isn't my intent, but the other side of this is that the series is not only a product of its time (for better or worse) but also something that is incredibly non-PC and actively anti-PC in some of its versions. It's almost literally a 70s/80s college frat house movie in game form, to the point that the first then-modern sequel made in 3D was actually his nephew in college. There's a certain point where the creators just DGAF and try to do offensive things to veer into absurdity, regardless of any perceived or actual harm done.
I can also take side with Tunahead about how I was definitely "too young" to play any LSL games at the time (6 was also my first foray!) and thought some characters were treated rather poorly.
That's an incredibly common reading of those movies and Disney animated movies in general. Hell, you can find these interpretations of Scar even back in the 90s.
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Ursula was based on a drag queen called Divine.
I loved the videos and learned a lot from them, but part of me wanted to see a take on FF9 for the villain video...
Watched the first episode.
I know next to nothing about queer/trans anything, so it was good to have an introduction through film, and then games, and then have all the examples of characters.
Tons of food for thought, and I look forward to watching the other two when I have time.
I can't fathom to have an opinion about something I know so little about, so I'm just taking everything at face value and letting it all sink in. Hope to keep up with this thread after I've watched them.
I know next to nothing about queer/trans anything, so it was good to have an introduction through film, and then games, and then have all the examples of characters.
Tons of food for thought, and I look forward to watching the other two when I have time.
I can't fathom to have an opinion about something I know so little about, so I'm just taking everything at face value and letting it all sink in. Hope to keep up with this thread after I've watched them.
On the other hand, sometimes old media is gross entirely on its own terms.
The Larry series didn't start out from much of a high point, and it had certainly already entered a downward spiral as early as the second game, but the first game is at least pretty good about communicating that Larry is a sleazy, wretched man with pitiful goals, and the joke is very much on him. There is a kind of maturity to that, which is entirely absent six years later when the series enters its "let's have a good old laugh at this homosexual" phase.
Cultural wokeness, for lack of a better term, is not always a linear progression.
Great series! A looooooot of new info (for me at least), that was presented in a simple and clear way with the appropriate social/historical justifications also presented in proper context.
That said, in the last video I felt the GTAV examples were a bit... "generic". I mean, the point about transphobes being able to act on their own prejudices in specific NPC's can be made for other types of hates & phobias. Racists can specifically target Asian/Latino/Black NPC's or sexists can specifically target female NPC's. If someone hates animals they can also target quite a few animal NPC's present in the game.
It's a side effect of the type of game it is. A game where you can be as violent as you want in a virtual recreation of a modern (by the time of the game's release) city in the US. All these types of NPC's will by default have to be present if they want to recreate an actual city. Either you exclude certain groups from these sort of games or you fundamentally change the games themselves (ie, not allowing the player to kill NPC's for example). In the specific case of the franchise in question, neither seems very likely to happen tbh.
I do agree that the trans NPC's shown were waaaayyyy overboard and clearly falling into the generic and harmful idea of what a trans-person looks like though. So perhaps not using them as joke would be a good start at least.
That said, in the last video I felt the GTAV examples were a bit... "generic". I mean, the point about transphobes being able to act on their own prejudices in specific NPC's can be made for other types of hates & phobias. Racists can specifically target Asian/Latino/Black NPC's or sexists can specifically target female NPC's. If someone hates animals they can also target quite a few animal NPC's present in the game.
It's a side effect of the type of game it is. A game where you can be as violent as you want in a virtual recreation of a modern (by the time of the game's release) city in the US. All these types of NPC's will by default have to be present if they want to recreate an actual city. Either you exclude certain groups from these sort of games or you fundamentally change the games themselves (ie, not allowing the player to kill NPC's for example). In the specific case of the franchise in question, neither seems very likely to happen tbh.
I do agree that the trans NPC's shown were waaaayyyy overboard and clearly falling into the generic and harmful idea of what a trans-person looks like though. So perhaps not using them as joke would be a good start at least.
I'm so glad these got made, hopefully, this leads to at least some people thinking more critically about representation in games.
Also, it reminded me that Police Quest VI: Open Season is a thing and yikes! How did that even get made?
Also, it reminded me that Police Quest VI: Open Season is a thing and yikes! How did that even get made?
Is this a podcast / video series or something? I can't currently see any twitter or youtube embeds due to internet restrictions where I am. Seems interesting.
Just watched these and was very impressed by Carolyn Petit. These were not only informative, but incredibly nuanced imo. Haven't played BoTW but wow Nintendo should be ashamed. Didn't play GTA V but watching those depictions made me feel very uncomfortable as if they put them in the game for the sole purpose of harassing / robbing / beating to death (haven't played it so not sure how they tie in to the story but the over the top portrayal felt extremely problematic to me). Also wtf Sierra jeez I used to love those King's Quest games a kid
Not surprised that The Last of Us and especially Left Behind were the positive examples of representation that leapt out at me Naughty Dog is SOOO good at storytelling and creating nuanced / interesting characters and show a true willingness to embrace diversity without veering towards stereotypes. The scene from TLoU with Bill had me tearing up when playing and I remember feeling so sad for the character's situation but also so happy to see someone like me in an actual AAA videogame that wasn't a villain, just a joke, or a "romantic option" a la Mass Effect it was a very powerful moment. And Ellie and Riley's relationship in Left Behind was so beautifully well done. Other developers please take note this is the type of stuff we need more of
Not surprised that The Last of Us and especially Left Behind were the positive examples of representation that leapt out at me Naughty Dog is SOOO good at storytelling and creating nuanced / interesting characters and show a true willingness to embrace diversity without veering towards stereotypes. The scene from TLoU with Bill had me tearing up when playing and I remember feeling so sad for the character's situation but also so happy to see someone like me in an actual AAA videogame that wasn't a villain, just a joke, or a "romantic option" a la Mass Effect it was a very powerful moment. And Ellie and Riley's relationship in Left Behind was so beautifully well done. Other developers please take note this is the type of stuff we need more of
Outside of the missions, no one is put there just as a target. Not by default, at least.
You as a player can kill everyone. Every NPC. No one is "safe", even your friends (though that one forces you to restart missions). The choice is always up to you though. I have a couple of friends who absolutely love driving around running around every NPC they see for example.
The real issue is how they've represented trans people in the game, not so much that you can kill them (again, you can kill every NPC). To say they're made to look as a joke is to put it very lightly indeed. Awful representation of them in the game.
As far as I recall there also isn't any story mission that directly relates to trans people, but it's been a while since I've played the campaign itself tbh. Like, 2015. My memory might be misleading me there.
Ehhhhhhh...
I can only really speak for myself, but as a whole tlou gay rep kinda rubbed me the wrong way.
The fact Ellie is canonically and explicitly gay and the fact Bill subverts stereotypes are both positive things. But this game leans too much in "bury your gays" and all the problems that come with. The writing around Bill's story used "partner" in a very awkward way with it meaning coworker, escort, and boyfriend depending on the context iirc, but it's been too long since I played the game so I might be misremembering.
If queer people love tlou's gay rep power to them. But I do think tlou's gay rep isn't all sunshine and rainbows (pun absolutely intended) . It does a lot right, but I feel it could have done a lot more.
But, I might be in the minority here so... *shrugs*
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Nah, I get you, it's still pretty rare to see any queer representation that's both linked to the main character and stays alive until the end =/
Or won't get retconned.