• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,010
As the parenthetical, which I added, shows, this is not a right wing piece attacking the straw man of "radical feminism".

It talks about the lack of real progress for working mothers. How women became the backup system due to a poor COVID relief plan, and insane cost of raising families, including career and earning potential sacrifices women face, unlike men.

Unless you're affluent enough to pay for the labor of less privileged women, you're stuck with a patchwork of poorly funded and regulated and prohibitively expensive schools, child care centers and after-school programs. And yet it's taboo for working mothers to talk too much about the costs, contradictions and compromises they face, often for fear such conversations will be used as fodder against us. Social conservatives are always eager to prove we were better off barefoot behind our white picket fences. The present feels unsustainable, but most women don't want to go back, and so we charge forward, every mother for herself, each of us laser-focused on our own career and our own nuclear family's security. Feminism meant cheering on women trying to gain status in this broken system. There was no way out, but if you worked hard enough, you could try to move up.

It was around the middle of May that I began to realize how disastrous the pandemic was going to be for mothers. I felt it myself and I saw it all around me, the mounting fear, the feeling of helplessness and isolation as we realized that the institutions we depended on were failing women and children, and that there was no backup system in place. Mothers themselves were the backup system.

Isolating women from larger social communities has historically been a surefire way to disempower them, and Covid-19 has imposed one of the longest periods in modern history of prolonged, social isolation. This is a necessary evil during a pandemic, but all the same, it's proving to be a perfect social experiment in what happens to women, both single mothers and mothers living in traditional two-parent households, when the drawbridges are raised.

The first coronavirus vaccine has been approved, but the next months will still be dark ones. Of the more than one million workers aged 20 and over who exited the labor force in September, 865,000 were women. Many lost unemployment insurance benefits because they "chose" not to return to work, even if they had no real choice because they had no child care. Of those who remained, one in four were considering reducing hours, looking for less-demanding jobs or planning to leave.

Child care centers are shuttering around the country. According to a report from the Center for American Progress and the Century Foundation, the child care crisis could cost women $64.5 billion in lost wages per yea
r. One study found that even mothers who have managed to keep their jobs have reduced their work hours four to five times more than fathers. Mothers are also more likely than fathers to work part-time, and only 43 percent of part-time workers have access to paid sick leave, 8 percent to paid family leave and 22 percent to health care benefits.

I'm not optimistic about these changes. They would require a new feminism, one that understands that the politics of motherhood are inherently intersectional for the simple reason that while not all women have or want children, those who do come from every race, sexual orientation and socioeconomic background. It would be a feminism grounded in solidarity as opposed to "success."

Rather than a frantic return to normalcy when the pandemic ends, we would need to embrace more sustainable, inclusive models of women's empowerment, buttressed by truly progressive policies like health care for all, paid leave for anyone caring for a baby and a universal basic income for anyone raising children in the home.

A friend of mine who has been un-schooling her daughter for years (un-schooling is a form of home-schooling that involves teaching children based on their interests rather than a set curriculum) pointed out that some of the people least psychologically affected by the pandemic are those who "don't expect the systems to work or to protect them, and have gained other survival strategies and ways or organizing and thinking about existence: home-schoolers, for instance, but also people living in communal housing situations or with extended family, people who have figured out how to live without working the way a lot of us feel we have to work."

www.nytimes.com

Opinion | Feminism Has Failed Women (Published 2020)

If the pandemic undid three decades of progress on gender equality, one has to wonder: How real was that progress in the first place?

Pretty long but well worth the read. I chose key excerpts for those that used their monthly quota.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,123
Gentrified Brooklyn
It's a toughy. Not my place to really weigh in.but the basic crux of this...that feminist movements sometimes fail on focusing on the issues facing women balancing families and how the state and unfortunately many of their spouses leave them holding the bag...kinda seems like a hot take? While it feels like all progressive movements need to do more soul searching on being more inclusive to differences within the demographics they try to represent...shouldn't we be more mad at the systems that oppress? The people happily shooting down all the needed protections and safety nets aren't feminists, lol.
 
OP
OP
entremet

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,010
It's a toughy. Not my place to really weigh in.but the basic crux of this...that feminist movements sometimes fail on focusing on the issues facing women balancing families and how the state and unfortunately many of their spouses leave them holding the bag...kinda seems like a hot take? While it feels like all progressive movements need to do more soul searching on being more inclusive to differences within the demographics they try to represent...shouldn't we be more mad at the systems that oppress? The people happily shooting down all the needed protections and safety nets aren't feminists, lol.
To be fair, these critiques are not new. Black feminist have scolded White feminists for this for decades now. The author is a white woman, so it seems it's finally starting to register.

White feminism ignoring poor women, PoC women, LGBT women is not a new thing.
 
Jul 24, 2020
671
We've had similar issues with child care here in Australia since COVID. I read an activist/scholar once say something along the lines that caring industries (health, nursing, childcare) etc are in many ways the vital communities and points for radical change systemically. Those groups need to be worked closely wih when it comes to enacting change, away from a neoliberal order.

Child care workers here are underpaid and rooms filled to the brim with children, and mothers likewise are struggling with balancing life and work and raising children without making significant sacrifices to one or more.

This definitely shouldn't be on mothers who don't have the time or the contacts. It needs to be on not just feminists, but the progressive left in general.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,315
This headline feels like clickbait and doesn't match the content of the article. The problem she's describing isn't rooted in feminism, it's in the lack of social safety nets (especially in the US where they don't even have government-guaranteed parental care for workers).
 

Cat Party

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,413
I agree with all the problems discussed in the piece, but how is any of that "feminism's" fault?
 

Maximo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,162
We've had similar issues with child care here in Australia since COVID. I read an activist/scholar once say something along the lines that caring industries (health, nursing, childcare) etc are in many ways the vital communities and points for radical change systemically. Those groups need to be worked closely wih when it comes to enacting change, away from a neoliberal order.

Child care workers here are underpaid and rooms filled to the brim with children, and mothers likewise are struggling with balancing life and work and raising children without making significant sacrifices to one or more.

This definitely shouldn't be on mothers who don't have the time or the contacts. It needs to be on not just feminists, but the progressive left in general.

Child care and especially aged cage nursing in Australia is fucking criminally underpaid. My SO's mother gets paid the same as her doing Cafe work...Sadly not too surprising the professions dominated by women are paid so low despite how hard the work is.
 

Deleted member 46493

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 7, 2018
5,231
To be fair, these critiques are not new. Black feminist have scolded White feminists for this for decades now. The author is a white woman, so it seems it's finally starting to register.

White feminism ignoring poor women, PoC women, LGBT women is not a new thing.
A lot of modern "feminist" content seen in popular media focuses on white upper middle class business owners aka "girlbosses", who usually come from well/off families already.
 

Tmespe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,448
This headline feels like clickbait and doesn't match the content of the article. The problem she's describing isn't rooted in feminism, it's in the lack of social safety nets (especially in the US where they don't even have government-guaranteed parental care for workers).
I agree. As a person from a Nordic country, feminism has helped give us the things the author is asking for.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,354
A lot of modern "feminist" content seen in popular media focuses on white upper middle class business owners aka "girlbosses", who usually come from well/off families already.

And the politicians only care about getting women in supervisory boards and CEO positions while completely ignoring poor women. Yes, it COULD lead to more equality in lower positions in the same company because there are more women on the board of directors, etc. but that is trickle-down wish fulfillment and we know how that worked for the last decades.
And it doesn't bring change for the single mother who works in a diner.

The tragic and infuriating thing is, that the fight for women's rights for all women, regardless of income, is drowned out by the media, influencers, and politicians who majorly only care about rich (and College/University educated) women's rights.
I lost count on how many time I read in comments or hear from co-workers that there is already pay equality because in our minimum-wage field of work, there is no pay disparity. Or that the politicians don't fight for woman quotas in jobs like waste disposal or physical trade or artisan jobs.
 

thediamondage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,248
Men or women, usually in life you have to pick 2 of the 3: successful/interesting career, family, happiness. Its extremely difficult to get all 3.

People assumed in the 20th century that men had all 3 and women only had 1 so equality/feminism would bring both up to parity. In reality men had the same choices, and modernity has just brought everyone up to face the same dilema: which 2 do I prioritize?
 

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
A lot of modern "feminist" content seen in popular media focuses on white upper middle class business owners aka "girlbosses", who usually come from well/off families already.

Ugh don't even get me started on how much I fucking loathe the "lean in" movement.

Men or women, usually in life you have to pick 2 of the 3: successful/interesting career, family, happiness. Its extremely difficult to get all 3.

People assumed in the 20th century that men had all 3 and women only had 1 so equality/feminism would bring both up to parity. In reality men had the same choices, and modernity has just brought everyone up to face the same dilema: which 2 do I prioritize?

Men still overwhelming have way less expectations placed on them in terms of family, btw, than women.
 

Squarehard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
25,834
17Peoples-superJumbo.jpg
 

Zekes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,702
I'm male here in Canada and I went to school for child and youth care. After a couple years of working in schools as an education assistant, I bailed from the field. Child and youth care wages are a joke and often the hours are part-time so you have to juggle multiple jobs. They are also wildly under-appreciated. My only real option for better pay and hours was to become a social worker, but I realized I didn't have it in me.
 
OP
OP
entremet

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,010
A lot of modern "feminist" content seen in popular media focuses on white upper middle class business owners aka "girlbosses", who usually come from well/off families already.
Ugh don't even get me started on how much I fucking loathe the "lean in" movement.



Men still overwhelming have way less expectations placed on them in terms of family, btw, than women.
Lean In has been heavily critcized as well since it puts the onus on women to combat unfair structures. It's very blame the victim.
 

Deleted member 4461

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,010
Lean In has been heavily critcized as well since it puts the onus on women to combat unfair structures. It's very blame the victim.

I don't know much about Lean In, but is it for women by women?

There are many structures for marginalized groups within their community pushing them to find success through their own power. I want to know if that's the kind of thing being criticized, or what.
 
OP
OP
entremet

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,010
I don't know much about Lean In, but is it for women by women?

There are many structures for marginalized groups within their community pushing them to find success through their own power. I want to know if that's the kind of thing being criticized, or what.
Yes, but it was tone deaf.

Here's a criticism and there are many to find if you look.

blog.penelopetrunk.com

Too little too late: Sheryl Sandberg apologizes for Lean In - Penelope Trunk Careers

Now that Sheryl Sandberg is a single mom, she has announced, in a post on Facebook, that it’s understandable that single moms do not Lean In. I am infuriated. First of all, why is Sandberg telling women they should all work? The whole point of feminism was so women could have choices instead of...

www.vox.com

"I was a Sheryl Sandberg superfan. Then her ‘Lean In’ advice failed me."

The end of "Lean In" feminism, chronicled by a former evangelist.
 

Deleted member 4461

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,010
Yes, but it was tone deaf.

Here's a criticism and there are many to find if you look.

blog.penelopetrunk.com

Too little too late: Sheryl Sandberg apologizes for Lean In - Penelope Trunk Careers

Now that Sheryl Sandberg is a single mom, she has announced, in a post on Facebook, that it’s understandable that single moms do not Lean In. I am infuriated. First of all, why is Sandberg telling women they should all work? The whole point of feminism was so women could have choices instead of...

www.vox.com

"I was a Sheryl Sandberg superfan. Then her ‘Lean In’ advice failed me."

The end of "Lean In" feminism, chronicled by a former evangelist.

Ah. Limited choices.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
To be fair, these critiques are not new. Black feminist have scolded White feminists for this for decades now. The author is a white woman, so it seems it's finally starting to register.

White feminism ignoring poor women, PoC women, LGBT women is not a new thing.
Feminism def has been straight middle/wealthy class white silently in front of it for decades. Kind of why I see womanism has become more and more popular and the right way to tackle issues for women as an outside observer.
 

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal

arcadepc

Banned
Dec 28, 2019
1,925
To be fair, these critiques are not new. Black feminist have scolded White feminists for this for decades now. The author is a white woman, so it seems it's finally starting to register.

White feminism ignoring poor women, PoC women, LGBT women is not a new thing.

It also ignores cultural and religious differences in other countries
 

Deleted member 4461

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,010
It's more than that.

It's absurd to expect women to do it all. Even if you have a ton of money/support, it's incredibly tiring to do all those things, and it puts pressure on women and paints them as failures for not being able to meet ridiculous standards.

I really liked Michelle Obama's take on this. https://www.npr.org/2018/12/03/672898216/michelle-obamas-take-on-lean-in-that-doesn-t-work

Ah, that also makes sense too.

To an earlier poster's point, I'd argue no one can have it all. The difference is that men aren't expected to put as much effort on the family side of things. We appear to have it all specifically because society's standards are lower for us in that regard.

So I see how it's immediately skewed.
 

Biggersmaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,966
Minneapolis
It also ignores cultural and religious differences in other countries

Culture and religion has to stop being the 3rd rail of feminism. Harmful traditions cannot be a woman's progressive choice reinforcing a diverse lifestyle for one group and an out of touch enemy of modern progressive women to another group. Islam, Haredi Judaism, and many other fundamentalist patriarchal traditions are as systemicaly harmful to women as evangelical Christian southern republicans or corporate America.

And here's the thing, women raised in those communities do speak up against their own cultures and are routinely criticized by "liberal" or "feminist" white people.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Headline is bait but the points are reasonable.

"Modern feminism does not focus enough on improving material conditions for women, who still remain society's reserve labor force in lieu of a proper social safety net, a persistent truth revealed by the pandemic" is probably the better summarization but obviously it doesn't scan well.

A long time ago, before capitalism and so on, women performed a vast array of uncompensated labor to sustain society, most notably childcare, cooking, cleaning and elderly care. It was assumed that the women of a household would do these things without pay or financial recompense. Society needs these things to function, so despite them performing critical labor, their contributions went unrecognized and unrewarded.

Today the same is broadly true, the situation is better than it was in the old days, but the group of activities we now refer to as "reproductive labor" has not broadly left the shoulders of women, despite the gains made in female emancipation over the last 50 something years in Western democracies. And the restrictions of the pandemic have revealed that the burden of reproductive labor still primarily rests with women. Kids and parents staying home means more childcare to do and other domestic tasks.

This kind of thing is sometimes referred to as "double burden".
A double burden (also called double day, second shift, and double duty[SUP][1][/SUP]) is the workload of people who work to earn money, but who are also responsible for significant amounts of unpaid domestic labor.

And black feminism has the term "triple oppression" to describe the unique way black women feel the effects of sexism, classism and racism.

Which is to say that modern feminism has managed to carve out a space for women in the labor market, but has not adequately reduced their domestic labor obligation so that now modern women have the responsibilities of their professional labor on top of their domestic labor. Progressive minded husbands sometime actively share in a greater portion of the necessary domestic labor but it is far from the norm.
 

arcadepc

Banned
Dec 28, 2019
1,925
Culture and religion has to stop being the 3rd rail of feminism. Harmful traditions cannot be a woman's progressive choice reinforcing a diverse lifestyle for one group and an out of touch enemy of modern progressive women to another group. Islam, Haredi Judaism, and many other fundamentalist patriarchal traditions are as systemicaly harmful to women as evangelical Christian southern republicans or corporate America.

And here's the thing, women raised in those communities do speak up against their own cultures and are routinely criticized by "liberal" or "feminist" white people.


Sure but they do not like being finger pointed by feminists of richer and out of touch nations in Western Europe and North America about how cruel and barbaric their culture and traditions are. This is like cultural imperialism.
 

Blackpuppy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,194
As a white male with a family of 2 young children, this is my input: this seems similar to the 'mental load' hastag of a couple of years ago.

Then I found it a bit humorous in a way because I joked to my wife that I am the one doing all the housework in my home (don't get me started on my wife's 'ability' to load a dishwasher). This doesn't mean my wife does nothing - quite the contrary. She mostly takes care of the paperwork, the cooking and buying clothes for the little ones. I do the vast majority of the cleaning up (dishes, sweeping, mopping, bathroom) and walking the dog. Our children were bottle-fed, so feeding tasks were evenly split, and now that they're older, we manage to divide the tasks between the two of us.

But while my situation might be different, there does seem to be enough evidence that women have more burden on their shoulders than men, and if that is indeed the case in your household, you really need to have a conversation about that. It is only fair that both partners put forth an equal amount of effort in their homes.
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,138
I mean, blaming feminists for not crushing the patriarchy seems a bit silly. Feminism has failed to achieve it's goals basically in every single realm. But blaming the oppressed for not being unopressed ain't it

And yeah, there are problems with non-intersectional feminism but the brunt of covid 19 shit falling on women feels like systemic issues. If women earn less they are more likely to be the one to give up work. Plus societal norms push this stuff as 'womens work'
 

deathkiller

Member
Apr 11, 2018
923
The focus should be on getting the state to help more, sure men should have a similar share of the house/childcare workload but that doesn't help single mothers at all.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
I mean, blaming feminists for not crushing the patriarchy seems a bit silly. Feminism has failed to achieve it's goals basically in every single realm. But blaming the oppressed for not being unopressed ain't it

And yeah, there are problems with non-intersectional feminism but the brunt of covid 19 shit falling on women feels like systemic issues. If women earn less they are more likely to be the one to give up work. Plus societal norms push this stuff as 'womens work'
When the article uses the term "feminism" it is referring to the formal feminist organizations/think tanks/lobbying groups who push the public narrative that defines how people define the concept and measure progress.

And on that front it is a massive fucking failure.

Men or women, usually in life you have to pick 2 of the 3: successful/interesting career, family, happiness. Its extremely difficult to get all 3.

People assumed in the 20th century that men had all 3 and women only had 1 so equality/feminism would bring both up to parity. In reality men had the same choices, and modernity has just brought everyone up to face the same dilema: which 2 do I prioritize?
White men with upper middle class or better incomes have been able to have all three. Just because western men of privilege have, for the past roughly 100 years, chosen to spend their time in their own pursuits instead of with their families to the point of it becoming a trope doesn't mean those men didn't have the choice.

Women are the ones faced with diametrically opposed cultural forces demanding familial responsibility while also pushing an expectation of career success.

And any "pick 2 of 3" that ends with one of the choices being something as vague as "happiness" doesn't really add up, FYI, as its a function of the first two and other varaibles. You can't solve an equation for X, Y, and Z if Z is only defined by its relationship with X, Y, and N.

Culture and religion has to stop being the 3rd rail of feminism. Harmful traditions cannot be a woman's progressive choice reinforcing a diverse lifestyle for one group and an out of touch enemy of modern progressive women to another group. Islam, Haredi Judaism, and many other fundamentalist patriarchal traditions are as systemicaly harmful to women as evangelical Christian southern republicans or corporate America.

And here's the thing, women raised in those communities do speak up against their own cultures and are routinely criticized by "liberal" or "feminist" white people.
Why are you jumping straight to oppressive regimes as the only non western world Christian cultures that might take offense to the version of feminism marketed today?

We have alternative forms of feminism in western society NOW. A lot of women would prefer a career and no family, that is a modest deviation that at this point the general public accepts pretty readily as capitalism has won out over all other cultural motivators in our society, so getting that money takes precedence for most over even basic health.

But go talk to an accomplished woman who put her career aside to have a family and see how society at large has responded to that. It ain't kind in most cases, and that is largely the domain of white middle class and higher women who live within a comfort bubble where that can be seen as acceptable.

The point of feminism should, as with all equality programs, focus on equality of access and services that promote access, not just equality of opportunity for the highest achievers. If a person, based on cultural or religious beliefs, chooses to live a different life than the mainstream narrative of female achievement that is her perogative, not oppression. Oppression is the obligation to be a mother and housewife without a choice to pursue a career, a working woman without real means to have a family, or even a "girlboss" who is expected to find a way to juggle both because they're exceptional at their career but also want a family.



The contemporary feminist messaging has been co-opted by capitalist dogma, convincing everyone that work productivity is of the utmost value. People pay lip service to parenting as the "hardest job" or "most important job" anyone does but none of our programs and policies in the U.S. specifically and most western world cultures in general support that.

Capitalism is promoting feminist progress as the number of woman CEOs of Fortune 500 countries, i.e. how many "girlbosses" we've seen since the 1970's. That is nothing more than exceptionalism propaganda. Meanwhile when things like the cost of child care, insufficient availability of child care, the lack of or ending of after school programs, etc. come around the majority of discussion focuses on how it effects "families" as a whole, ignoring that it disproportionately impacts women by a wide margin. That is not even getting into how much more ink girlboss stories get over surfacing the rising inequality in family care in our society.

The narrative of feminism has become nothing more than grist for the mill of capital creation, with women keeping the burdens at home while adding the weight of also needing to be profit generators. This was used as a way to hide wage stagnation and now that dual income households are common the expanded labor pool is used to continue the enforcement of it, via the constant threat of slipping down the quality of life ladder most families are barely clinging onto.
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
This headline feels like clickbait and doesn't match the content of the article. The problem she's describing isn't rooted in feminism, it's in the lack of social safety nets (especially in the US where they don't even have government-guaranteed parental care for workers).
I think it's rooted in feminism, to a degree, particularly the successes from the tail-end of 2nd wave feminism in bringing women into the workforce and the "have-it-all" attitudes that were prerequisite to that. It was packaged to women in a very pernicious manner, in ways that some were acknowledging from the outset.

It was the feminism that lionized these middle-class women striving to exit the domestic prisons demonstrated to them by their own mothers, made them out to be badasses who proved their worth by shouldering more expectations than their male counterparts, such as taking care of domestic/reproductive labour in addition to their new careers.
It was the feminism that forgot that unlucky or impoverished women, particularly women of colour, were struggling to achieve that same ideal society was telling them they were allowed to have and want and failing to achieve it through no fault of their own.
It was the feminism that painted stay-at-home motherhood as a regressive trait rather than a valid personal choice a woman could make to choose domestic/reproductive labour over a career, something my own mother was shamed for throughout much of her adult life.
It was the feminism that made working motherhood the ideal while making the tools required to maintain it (external child care) highly tenuous due to an unspoken understanding that women could be folded back into domestic life if the feminist "experiment" failed and was left unaddressed, under-addressed or poorly addressed ever since.

Some of the adverse side-effects of 2nd wave feminism's reception in society are now part of what feminists are trying to address in the 3rd and 4th wave, because they've long acknowledged part of the problem. There's a lot of talk around how poisonous lean in feminism is and how the "girlboss" moniker is actively detrimental, and both of those things tie very closely back to some of these problems that arose from 2nd wave feminism's reception in the public eye, what it asked of modern women because of how it was packaged to them.

I don't think it's terribly controversial to say that, for all the good feminism has provided and continues to provide to society, how it was packaged to women in the 80s and 90s and near-institutionalized afterward has had some negative side effects. Both of those things can be true, major parts of 3rd and 4th wave theory focus almost exclusively on that. Feminism without intersectionality with race, sexuality and gender shouldn't be ignored, should not be spoken of delicately; such feminism has failed those women. And just as we acknowledge those deficits, lacks and consequences of how feminism has been packaged, so too must we acknowledge that feminism had its part to play in how 2nd wave feminism was deceptively packaged to white and middle-class women, as well, containing a lot of unspoken pitfalls that other women were all too aware of but whose words weren't heeded or thought to be credible.

TL;DR - despite the clickbait-y headline, "feminism has failed women" =/= "feminism is a failure" and pretending that feminism is a universal good or that it hasn't failed many women in some degree or another erases their struggles and the causes of them.
 

pikachief

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,522
My wife has been a feminist her whole life and she's had a lot of struggle with her desire to be a housewife. She felt for a long time to want to be a housewife meant she had missed the point of her feminism. Eventually she did learn that feminism should give the choice to be whoever you choose to be despite social norms rather than to be only against social norms, but she does struggle with it from time to time still.

that being said I think being a feminist and a housewife is also hard if you're partner is not actively supportive. My wife went to school for a child development degree and her nanny job was put on indefinite home as the family were social distancing as much as possible. Her second job as a caretaker got its hours massively cut. She could fall back on her housewife role to still contribute and feel like she was valuable to everyone around her.

We moved recently and all the construction sites closed but she was able to get a teaching job while I stayed home and was a househusband. I think being comfortable and flexible in my role is a good part of feminism too
 

Ary F.

Member
Oct 30, 2017
736
It definitely failed on two fronts or at the very least doesn't acknowledge how feminism failed to reach these areas:
Domestic house holds and the workforce.

Domestic households certainly suffer when sexism decrees that all emotional care and love should come from women, in the face of the reality that working women, like their male counterparts, often come home too tired to deliver the emotional goods. Sexist men and women believe that the way to solve this dilemma is not to encourage men to share the work of emotional caretaking but rather to return to more sexist gender roles. They call it "the hardest job" but its no more than lip service when they fail to take the necessary steps to alleviate the job. They just want more women, especially those with small children, to stay home.

Of course they do not critique the economy that makes it necessary for all adults to work outside the home; instead they pretend that feminism keeps women in the workforce. Most women work because they want to leave the house and because their families need the income to survive, not because they are feminists who believe that their working is a sign of liberation.

Conservative antifeminist women and men insist that feminism is destroying family life. They argue that working women leave households bereft of homemakers and children without a mother's care. Yet they consistently ignore the degree to which consumer capitalist culture, not feminism, pushed women into the workforce and keeps them there.

Now in the workforce, there's the issue of working mothers not having nearly enough resources to be able to do both. Women aren't gleefully knocking themselves up for a nine-month 'holiday' – they are continuing the human race. We're raising the next generation. Labour is LABOUR.

As such, it isn't unreasonable to expect society, including businesses and other workplaces, to share the financial cost. Where this is problematic for businesses, it's because we haven't yet sufficiently provided the necessary financial and organizational infrastructure to facilitate the process, not because greedy or flippant women are causing them trouble.
 

Biggersmaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,966
Minneapolis
Sure but they do not like being finger pointed by feminists of richer and out of touch nations in Western Europe and North America about how cruel and barbaric their culture and traditions are. This is like cultural imperialism.

It's a bit of Western arrogance to assume other cultures are only being criticized by Americans/Europeans. My problem is feminists within those groups are calling out their own traditions, but supporting or citing those feminists is often seen as evidence of prejudice or bigotry.

Why are you jumping straight to oppressive regimes as the only non western world Christian cultures that might take offense to the version of feminism marketed today?

We have alternative forms of feminism in western society NOW. A lot of women would prefer a career and no family, that is a modest deviation that at this point the general public accepts pretty readily as capitalism has won out over all other cultural motivators in our society, so getting that money takes precedence for most over even basic health.

But go talk to an accomplished woman who put her career aside to have a family and see how society at large has responded to that. It ain't kind in most cases, and that is largely the domain of white middle class and higher women who live within a comfort bubble where that can be seen as acceptable.

The point of feminism should, as with all equality programs, focus on equality of access and services that promote access, not just equality of opportunity for the highest achievers. If a person, based on cultural or religious beliefs, chooses to live a different life than the mainstream narrative of female achievement that is her perogative, not oppression. Oppression is the obligation to be a mother and housewife without a choice to pursue a career, a working woman without real means to have a family, or even a "girlboss" who is expected to find a way to juggle both because they're exceptional at their career but also want a family.



The contemporary feminist messaging has been co-opted by capitalist dogma, convincing everyone that work productivity is of the utmost value. People pay lip service to parenting as the "hardest job" or "most important job" anyone does but none of our programs and policies in the U.S. specifically and most western world cultures in general support that.

Capitalism is promoting feminist progress as the number of woman CEOs of Fortune 500 countries, i.e. how many "girlbosses" we've seen since the 1970's. That is nothing more than exceptionalism propaganda. Meanwhile when things like the cost of child care, insufficient availability of child care, the lack of or ending of after school programs, etc. come around the majority of discussion focuses on how it effects "families" as a whole, ignoring that it disproportionately impacts women by a wide margin. That is not even getting into how much more ink girlboss stories get over surfacing the rising inequality in family care in our society.

The narrative of feminism has become nothing more than grist for the mill of capital creation, with women keeping the burdens at home while adding the weight of also needing to be profit generators. This was used as a way to hide wage stagnation and now that dual income households are common the expanded labor pool is used to continue the enforcement of it, via the constant threat of slipping down the quality of life ladder most families are barely clinging onto.

I don't agree women putting their career on hold are predominantly white suburbanites. However, I do agree feminism has been co-opted by capitalism, a good example being when Nike released a Hijab. There are progressive Islamic feminist women who view that as patriarchal oppression and I would support that perspective.

Another example being many Japanese women also find their cultural traditions to be regressive - and I would never categorize Japan as an oppressive regime. Nor would agreeing with such women make Japan a victim of Western influence.
 
Last edited:

arcadepc

Banned
Dec 28, 2019
1,925
It's a bit of Western arrogance to assume other cultures are only being criticized by Americans/Europeans. My problem is feminists within those groups are calling out their own traditions, but supporting or citing those feminists is often seen as evidence of prejudice or bigotry.

It requires also to know the linguistic, cultural, religious, historical , economical and sociological background of the involved countries, especially when Islam is involved , since it is not a simple religion like Christianity. Plus the most important bibliography is not even available in English. It is not as simple as "it works in Europe/USA, so it will work elsewhere", while ignoring the societal structure and peculiarities of each country, eg the importance of shadow economy in African countries.