Female Representation in Video Games Isn't Getting Any Better [WIRED] (Sarkeesian Annual E3 Analysis)

Onyar · Jun 15, 2019

I feel it was an improvement overall.
Less typival male stereotype and more choose seems a good thing, even in what seems not good that the female main charactersd decreased
Even so, more like to watch over the gender I would like to check the actual representation of them. For example, an straight male shouldn't be only presented as a super mainly hero.

BossAttack · Jun 15, 2019

Kittens McMittens said:
Cyberpunk will probably end up like Mass Effect, where FemShep was clearly the canon choice.

Lies.

AmbientRuin · Jun 15, 2019

RocknRola said:
Seems a bit disingenuous to say it's getting worse when the multiple options % seems to be growing steadily each year. Sure, it's not female-only leads, but it's progress in my eyes.

Of course it's only really possible with "neutral" stories (or games with no story at all), since you can't push too much into either gender specific issues, like say motherhood/fatherhood for example.

Which is why Multiple Options being up is meaningless in regards to the representation of women

unknownspectator · Jun 15, 2019

Kittens McMittens said:
Cyberpunk will probably end up like Mass Effect, where FemShep was clearly the canon choice.

so, she'll have the shittiest romance options too?

fuck you jacob....

Pandora012 · Jun 15, 2019

Edge said:
Yeah, sure and that's a great thing, but still. If a developer decides, and not every single game is hugely story focused, to have a female as character in their next game originally and then thinks about, "hey, you know what, we give them more options" and chooses to also add a male character, it wents from the statistic "female" to " multiple options", so it's not contributing to the "female" statistic anymore, but it gives you more options and that's a bad thing?

It's a difficult topic, yes, but the huge increase in the multiple options category shows that something changes.

And I at least have the feeling that we have more games with females as main character than ever before. At least I play a lot recently.

What it shows is that it's an easy way to show you have representation. Very few games that let you choose have any meaningful differences for the characters. The ones that do i applaud, but those are few and far in between. It's easy for those that get the majority of the representation to just point at what amounts to pallet swaps as an improvement.

Prototype Viktor · Jun 15, 2019

Almeister said:
Yeah this feels to me like an important metric to note. The aim should be more choice represented, right? Rather than exclusively one gender or the other.

yes and no b/c a lot of people just pick the first option given to them b/c it's still the "default" . see the same for race options

Rayne · Jun 15, 2019

Kittens McMittens said:
Cyberpunk will probably end up like Mass Effect, where FemShep was clearly the canon choice.

lol not even close (I usually like Hale but as Shep? God no. And she did the same thing as fem trooper too which made me sad).

spam musubi · Jun 15, 2019

One thing worth pointing out is that similar to the bechdel test, this reflects quantity and not quality. For example a game like DOA would count as a female character game but it's horrible representation. It's definitely interesting to look at the sheer amount of games with female characters and that tells us something on a macro scale, but it's not the complete picture. We should look at quality of representation too. I'd say that except for Japanese games, the quality of female characters has definitely gone up over the years. There's less stereotyping, more diversity of female characters and just better writing for them overall.

Neoxon · Jun 15, 2019

entremet said:
Sakurai didn't choose the DLC characters.

Based on more recent interviews, we have reason to believe that Sakurai had a bigger role in DLC character selection than he originally let on.

julia crawford · Jun 15, 2019

Choice of gender is a meaningless mechanism of representation and honestly shouldn't factor into the conversation. It shouldn't be left to the player to choose what kind of representation they want from a game.

laser · Jun 15, 2019

TaleSpun said:
Diversity as a numbers game just strikes me as clinical and cold to the touch. It's like, what does it matter that there are so many more games starring men if half of those characters aren't even compelling, if they're much more than a silent self-insert to begin with? It's not just stats - it's not just representation. You've got to give people compelling characters with depth to them as well as diversify.

It's just unfortunate that Sarkeesian's analysis continues to be this way. We never get deeper readings of the games, in proper context (like how they just throw in remasters here. I mean, huh?), the games just get filed away based on tropes or stats. It's a very old schtick at this point.

LOL, spoken like somebody that never needed representation because they were the default. Why do female leads to need to be compelling when male leads don't?

Juan29.Zapata · Jun 15, 2019

The people saying that minorities shouldn't complain look like white people in the 60's after the Voting Rights Act and Civil Rights Act were enough progress for now and that they should just suck it up, all while said minorities were indeed suffering.

And sure, it's great to be able to choose gender in more games now (even if most games don't even take in account there are people who are non-binary), but representation also includes the actual experiences of minorities. Doubt most of these games where you can select gender actually take in account the struggles women face, and if you can choose your race, I also doubt that they will show the struggles of POC.

If you want the gaming industry to pat themselves in the back, they really shouldn't. Not just because of representation, but because this is the same industry that allowed GamerGate to fester and harass women developers and journalists.

Deleted member 5549 · Jun 15, 2019

Budi said:
No, I don't think I would care. I do prefer seeing all the options of course, more info the better, but I definitely wouldn't be upset. Probably not even slightly disappointed.

SoaringDive said:
I personally would prefer it. I'm tired of seeing the same brown-haired generic white man (I'm a brown haired white man).

entremet said:
I'm all digital. Don't care either way. It's a cover, which I never see. It's basically an icon that I look at for two seconds before booting up a game.

Brotherhood93 said:
It doesn't make the slightest difference to me. If the character is a blank slate/silent protagonist type then I more than likely don't care who the protagonist is at all anyway. If they have defined personalities and backstories then I'd go with whichever seems most interesting but who they use to market wouldn't bother me.

I genuinely don't believe most male players care much about this stuff. You get the occasional outrage from those bemoaning "SJW games" at the sight of a woman but they're actually only a small fraction of the game's audience. For example, I don't think Assassin's Creed Odyssey would have been viewed any differently if Kassandra was front and centre of all their marketing. I think it's a shame that companies still go with the male default a lot of the time.

This would count as having gender choice but that is why this method is flawed because it is not the same as something like Cyberpunk. I guess you could technically only play as Leon but I think it's widely accepted you haven't experienced the game as intended unless you've done Leon A/Claire B or Claire A/Leon B. A better way of doing this might be having games where you choose your gender and where you play as both male and female as two separate groups, since part of the argument is that you can avoid playing as women in those that aren't exclusively female.

Fulminator said:
no

if the game looks cool i'll buy it regardless. i don't care who's on the cover. women can be and are cool too.

see: Horizon Zero Dawn

(and many other games)

upset was clearly a too strong a word. let me rephrase it: if all the companies decided from now on we will promote our games with gender options with female characters only (that includes videos, covers and SE figurines), would there be a change in the hype-culture? and by that I mean the obligatory "day 1!!!" and "take my wallet" reactions to those reveals we see here in the forum. do you think it would have an impact on that?

Fulminator · Jun 15, 2019

halfbeast said:
upset was clearly a too strong a word. let me rephrase it: if all the companies decided from now on we will promote our games with gender options with female characters only (that includes videos, covers and SE figurines), would there be a change in the hype-culture? and by that I mean the obligatory "day 1!!!" and "take my wallet" reactions to those reveals we see here in the forum. do you think it would have an impact on that?

across the whole audience? maybe a bit. there are a lot of man children who play these games. personally, i don't think it would affect any hype I held at all.

in the end it might make a small dent but i don't think anything significant would change. after all, you can still choose your character in the end.

clemenx · Jun 15, 2019

Would she ever say anything is getting better? She won't put herself out of a job

Deleted member 7279 · Jun 15, 2019

Male only is dropping and choice is rising. Still not perfect but going in the right direction. I'd love it if every game was like Assassin's Creed Odyssey and gave you the choice to play male or female main character and had story scenes and voice acting done for both.

Fosko · Jun 15, 2019

Kanann said:
Agree, DQ DLC on smash without any Female hero make me wanna smack Sakurai butt with my foot.

It's not Sakurai's fault that the most iconic DQ heroes (protagonists) are males. If there were more important/iconic female protagonists in japanese games, there'd be more female characters in smash.

LumberPanda · Jun 15, 2019

halfbeast said:
upset was clearly a too strong a word. let me rephrase it: if all the companies decided from now on we will promote our games with gender options with female characters only (that includes videos, covers and SE figurines), would there be a change in the hype-culture? and by that I mean the obligatory "day 1!!!" and "take my wallet" reactions to those reveals we see here in the forum. do you think it would have an impact on that?

You'll probably get the same answer from us, we'll welcome the change. However cismen that post on resetera are a very very small percent of cismen gamers; I think it would definitely affect hype culture for gamers in general if that's what you're asking.

fiendcode · Jun 15, 2019

clemenx said:
Would she ever say anything is getting better? She won't put herself out of a job

What a disgusting take.

Budi · Jun 15, 2019

halfbeast said:
upset was clearly a too strong a word. let me rephrase it: if all the companies decided from now on we will promote our games with gender options with female characters only (that includes videos, covers and SE figurines), would there be a change in the hype-culture? and by that I mean the obligatory "day 1!!!" and "take my wallet" reactions to those reveals we see here in the forum. do you think it would have an impact on that?

Oh well, it's pretty hard to talk for others. Especially as big and diverse group as gamers. For some, better female representation would mean more hype. For some it would be less. And there definitely would be pushback if such a drastic change was announced to happen, since there's pushback for any inclusion and diversity efforts already. While I don't think it would have huge impact on sales, but if it had some impact I'd lean more on the side of lost sales. As I think the type of game to appear on E3 is most likely something that attracts male players bit more. I don't think having the marketing to be centered around female character would change it drastically.

Deleted member 5549 · Jun 15, 2019

Fulminator said:
across the whole audience? maybe a bit. there are a lot of man children who play these games. personally, i don't think it would affect any hype I held at all.

in the end it might make a small dent but i don't think anything significant would change. after all, you can still choose your character in the end.

SoaringDive said:
You'll probably get the same answer from us, we'll welcome the change. However cismen that post on resetera are a very very small percent of cismen gamers; I think it would definitely affect hype culture for gamers in general if that's what you're asking.

yeah, we established that you specifically wouldn't mind. I was just asking if you think the general hype would deflate. as in instead of 2 pages full of "day 1"-posts in an announcement thread, we'll get more of "I'll wait for reviews" or "I need to see more" responses.

Coyote Starrk · Jun 15, 2019

Multiple options seems to be steadily rising. That seems like progress to me. That allows everyone to play as whoever they want.

RocknRola · Jun 15, 2019

AmbientRuin said:
Which is why Multiple Options being up is meaningless in regards to the representation of women

I wouldn't frame it like that, but sure.

Glass Arrows · Jun 15, 2019

The rise of multiple options is good because it allows women to feel more included and a chance to express themselves if they want, but it doesn't really count as representation the same way a complex, well-realized defined female character does, so I understand the disappointment.

Resiverence · Jun 15, 2019

halfbeast said:
question for the cishet maleEra: would you be upset if the games with both m/f protagonists would only use their female character to showcase their game and their cover?

I honestly don't care either way since the game's cover has never meant a thing to me unless it's really good (which masterpiece covers like yellow background with man in front tend to not be)

Brotherhood93 · Jun 15, 2019

halfbeast said:
upset was clearly a too strong a word. let me rephrase it: if all the companies decided from now on we will promote our games with gender options with female characters only (that includes videos, covers and SE figurines), would there be a change in the hype-culture? and by that I mean the obligatory "day 1!!!" and "take my wallet" reactions to those reveals we see here in the forum. do you think it would have an impact on that?

I don't personally believe so but the truth is we won't know until it happens. All I'll say is that The Last of Us Part II is very much in "take my money" territory as will the inevitable sequel to Horizon. I know those don't feature gender options but they both have female leads and it doesn't dampen the hype. If the next Assassin's Creed uses the female option, assuming it will be similar to Odyssey, for all its marketing then I'd still expect the same hype level.

Your question is perhaps why at the moment companies are still playing it safe in terms of marketing because currently what they are doing is working just fine. Hopefully this is something else we see progress on in the future. My assumption is there would be little change, though it would be naive not to expect some misogynistic backlash I don't think it'd represent anything close to significant numbers in the grand scheme of things.

Glass Arrows said:
The rise of multiple options is good because it allows women to feel more included and a chance to express themselves if they want, but it doesn't really count as representation the same way a complex, well-realized defined female character does, so I understand the disappointment.

A few people have made this point and I don't mean to repeat myself but this isn't entirely true and why a better, more detailed breakdown would make for better discussion here. Multiple options doesn't necessarily mean play as generic male or play as generic female. As mentioned in a previous post of mine, Resident Evil 2 would have counted as multiple options in this analysis but it doesn't make Claire a less realised character. I can't recall every game at E3 but Deathloop is one that appeared to have a fully realised female character alongside a male character too.

There is also a difference in my mind between games like Gods & Monsters and Cyberpunk that let you choose the gender of your main character and games like Borderlands or Bleeding Edge that feature both male and female defined characters. You can argue that having the choice to play as only male is still a dilution of representation but those female characters still exist in that world if you're not playing as them.

Deleted member 364 · Jun 15, 2019

Multiple options jumped from 50% to 66%, which is female representation. So no, female representation in fact getting better.

Kuosi · Jun 15, 2019

halfbeast said:
question for the cishet maleEra: would you be upset if the games with both m/f protagonists would only use their female character to showcase their game and their cover?

wouldn't affect me in any way

Deleted member 11413 · Jun 15, 2019

John Kowalski said:
Choice of gender is a meaningless mechanism of representation and honestly shouldn't factor into the conversation. It shouldn't be left to the player to choose what kind of representation they want from a game.

Completely disagree with this, player choice is the main difference between games and other media, and allowing the player to choose how to represent themselves is a huge part of what makes games appealing and unique. It's why D&D has remained popular for so long.

Obviously it's different than representation through a set character, but to say that it is meaningless is ignoring one of the greatest strengths of the medium.

Dr. Monkey · Jun 15, 2019

Joey T said:
Multiple options jumped from 50% to 66%, which is female representation. So no, female representation in fact getting better.

That's not really how it always works. More accurate to say "options to play as female have increased," which is not the same as representation. Often those games show only male characters in the marketing, for instance, and at times a female protagonist creates some dissonance due to the world and worldbuilding, but that at least is less frequent.

There is improvement in options. That's a bonus. But companies are still reluctant to push female leads in many games unless they are already established, and this is also tied up with the problem that too many games with female leads don't end up quite as polished. Games like Horizon Zero Dawn are outliers. That should be the next frontier of change.

That said, I'm very excited at games like Deathloop, which look to be making good strides all around, and while it's less discussed, the State of Decay 2 DLC, where one of the two mission options is two black woman as the starting story characters, and they actually have well textured hair. Both those things are rare. It's a delight. There are changes rumbling, but there's still plenty of pushback and a lot of room for improvement. The very fact that these discussions are so often and easily dismissed as just political or forced proves that.

AmbientRuin · Jun 15, 2019

Joey T said:
Multiple options jumped from 50% to 66%, which is female representation. So no, female representation in fact getting better.

AmbientRuin said:
Lets not forget most of the time the game allows choice its still either written to be completely neutral or with the male character in mind.
This is why the Multiple Options point being up year over year doesn't really change anything.

lenovox1 · Jun 15, 2019

Joey T said:
Multiple options jumped from 50% to 66%, which is female representation. So no, female representation in fact getting better.

What people seem to be missing is that there just happened to be a lot of RPGs and games with "party" systems this year: games that traditionally both allow and necessitate a wide variety of character types.

That counts as representation in a purely, purely physical sense, and the marketing surrounding those particular upcoming games is still centered on the male protagonist.

Dr. Monkey · Jun 15, 2019

John Kowalski said:
Choice of gender is a meaningless mechanism of representation and honestly shouldn't factor into the conversation. It shouldn't be left to the player to choose what kind of representation they want from a game.

I see what you're saying here and while I too would like to see more companies making the choice to move beyond the cishet white male protagonist, I do like customizations and in fact would like to see more options. I'd like to see gender scrapped from that in more games in general, so choices are just choices that allow us to build an avatar. The biggest problem with so many of these systems is that they are still limited - facial hair options, general hair options, body type, age, all of that still often reflects a very particular paradigm.

Marcus Brutalius · Jun 15, 2019

ISOM said:
Yeah, he has that generic male protagonist look while the female character was dripping with personality. to me anyway.

Yes, Cyberpunk guy is basically this guy with less personality:

dyst · Jun 15, 2019

From 2015 to 2019 the percentage jumped from 9% to 21%. How is that not progress? These things take time, a lot of these games start production years in advance.

Deleted member 5549 · Jun 15, 2019

Budi said:
Oh well, it's pretty hard to talk for others. Especially as big and diverse group as gamers. For some, better female representation would mean more hype. For some it would be less. And there definitely would be pushback if such a drastic change was announced to happen, since there's pushback for any inclusion and diversity efforts already. While I don't think it would have huge impact on sales, but if it had some impact I'd lean more on the side of lost sales. As I think the type of game to appear on E3 is most likely something that attracts male players bit more. I don't think having the marketing to be centered around female character would change it drastically.

Brotherhood93 said:
I don't personally believe so but the truth is we won't know until it happens. All I'll say is that The Last of Us Part II is very much in "take my money" territory as will the inevitable sequel to Horizon. I know those don't feature gender options but they both have female leads and it doesn't dampen the hype. If the next Assassin's Creed uses the female option, assuming it will be similar to Odyssey, for all its marketing then I'd still expect the same hype level.

Your question is perhaps why at the moment companies are still playing it safe in terms of marketing because currently what they are doing is working just fine. Hopefully this is something else we see progress on in the future. My assumption is there would be little change, though it would be naive not to expect some misogynistic backlash I don't think it'd represent anything close to significant numbers in the grand scheme of things.

I believe companies play it safe, because they're still stuck in the mindset of a decade ago. what I'm trying to figure out in this discussion, if we're ready to ditch the male-default option. as you said, people are pretty hyped for Last of Us 2, potential Horizon sequel or something like Control. so, yeah, why the hell not, right?

AmbientRuin · Jun 15, 2019

dyst said:
From 2015 to 2019 the percentage jumped from 9% to 21%. How is that not progress? These things take time, a lot of these games start production years in advance.

Its under 9% now. 21% is the male exclusive column.

dyst · Jun 15, 2019

AmbientRuin said:
Its under 9% now. 21% is the male exclusive column.

Damn, I am blind. Yea, not good to take a step back like that.

TaleSpun · Jun 15, 2019

laser said:
LOL, spoken like somebody that never needed representation because they were the default. Why do female leads to need to be compelling when male leads don't?

They all do. That's my whole point. You could even the stats or even slant them in women's favor, but if they're still mostly boring and vanilla, how much is really gained? I'm not saying the data is useless, I just think it's odd that after five years of doing this, they still haven't figured out diversity in an artistic medium isn't just a math problem.

And for the record, I'm black and disabled. Certainly not the default (lol). I want more diversity myself, but that doesn't mean I just nod my head in simple agreement every time a proponent puts out an article. The harassment of FemFreq from gamergaters sucks (to say the least), but calling her approach cold and oddly comfortable just ignoring the actual narrative/thematic context of most of the games they cover is a fairly old criticism at this point.

I want the ends, but I also think the means are lacking.

¡ B 0 0 P ! · Jun 15, 2019

Kewlmyc said:
ain characters is getting better.

There is improvement happening, though it might not be enough and/or fast enough.

Funyarinpa said:
I think it's good! However, fully defined protagonists offer a different experience where an exclusively female protagonist might be able to explore a female perspective or simply give female protagonists a better foothold in mainstream gaming culture (because as it stands the vast majority of extremely popular titles have a male protagonist and there are few prominent female protagonists to talk about, especially those with developed stories and personalities).

I personally somewhat disagree with the way that was expressed in the article though, which is something along the lines of "multiple protagonists will let men who are more comfortable with a male character play as a guy which lessens that game's value as representation". Like, obviously relating a touch more to people of the same gender is not an isolated phenomenon by any stretch, that's part of why more/better female representation would be a wonderful thing, no need to deride male players for preferring male characters IMO. I say this as a guy who usually prefers the design of female characters, finds them more novel, and so plays as them, but I might just be tone policing so whatever.

I also don't think that female representation shouldn't only be measured by exclusively female protagonists, but it's not my place to criticize Sarkeesian et al. for how they frame their research. (And I think it clearly would've occurred to them too, so I trust there's a reason the analysis has been framed this way.)

I don't have a horse in that race but god that male character on the horrible box art looks mediocre at best

KillerMan91 said:
I mean going by that chart games were you can solely play as a male have dropped significantly too (from high of 41% to 21%). I think it's a bit weird to ignore the fact that more and more games simply let you choose your gender. In 2015 you could choose to play as a female in 55% of games shown at E3. This year 71%. Female represantion has definitely gotten better going by that.

The decline in both exclusively male and female characters is more the rise of GaaS than anything else. Everything these days must be a open world game or PVP multiplayer title that offers players a plethora of choices/items/cosmetics that developers and publishers can monetize.

You will never see an E3 where more than 10% of characters are exclusively female because AAA has abadnoned story driven games. Well now mabye if a future E3 was chock full of an insane amount of indie reveals and highlights it might be possible.

Brotherhood93 · Jun 15, 2019

halfbeast said:
I believe companies play it safe, because they're still stuck in the mindset of a decade ago. what I'm trying to figure out in this discussion, if we're ready to ditch the male-default option. as you said, people are pretty hyped for Last of Us 2, potential Horizon sequel or something like Control. so, yeah, why the hell not, right?

Absolutely. Ubisoft really should have done it with Kassandra, even pre-launch she seemed the most popular character out of the two anyway. If games with female leads can be popular and sell well I really see no reason why it should be detrimental to games with gender options to lead with the female character.

i-Lo pointed out a while back that Overwatch is one of the few games, maybe the only one, to feature a playable female character on the box art over playable male characters. It may be a coincidence but the most popular heroes in the game are female. There is an argument that male characters are used as the default marketing for most games because people are more likely to play the male character in them but when that is constantly what is marketed it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Part of marketing a game is marketing the main character and I don't believe there's anything inherently less exciting or interesting about a female character to an audience.

Woozies · Jun 15, 2019

I wouldn't exactly call an increase in multiple options more representation.

In most cases, multiple choice leads to more neutrality than more feminine viewpoints.

It's obviously not always the case, but unless the change in gender prompts very distinct character differences in your Game Avatar it's not really doing much.

laser · Jun 15, 2019

TaleSpun said:
They all do. That's my whole point. You could even the stats or even slant them in women's favor, but if they're still mostly boring and vanilla, how much is really gained? I'm not saying the data is useless, I just think it's odd that after five years of doing this, they still haven't figured out diversity in an artistic medium isn't just a math problem.

And for the record, I'm black and disabled. Certainly not the default (lol). I want more diversity myself, but that doesn't mean I just nod my head in simple agreement every time a proponent puts out an article. The harassment of FemFreq from gamergaters sucks (to say the least), but calling her approach cold and oddly comfortable just ignoring the actual narrative/thematic context of most of the games they cover is a fairly old criticism at this point.

I want the ends, but I also think the means are lacking.

Sorry for assuming your background, that's my bad. But point out the numbers is useful. If male leads can have badly written characters, there's nothing wrong with having them be badly written female characters instead. I believe that the amount of representation and the lack of well written characters are separate problems and shouldn't be conflated.

Sankara · Jun 15, 2019

TaleSpun said:
They all do. That's my whole point. You could even the stats or even slant them in women's favor, but if they're still mostly boring and vanilla, how much is really gained? I'm not saying the data is useless, I just think it's odd that after five years of doing this, they still haven't figured out diversity in an artistic medium isn't just a math problem.

Uhm, most of their video series is qualitative analysis of tropes. So this article's "numbers" are just an addendum to the qualitative work they've already done with regards to actual feminist textual analysis of video games and gender tropes. So we are basically getting both sides of the spectrum - quantitative and qualitative understandings of how gender oppression works in the games industry - in the games themselves and in the business presenting side of things too. Petit and Sarkeesian are giving you both cold math and hot textual readings, so to speak, so I don't think your criticism with their work holds much merit.

TaleSpun said:
I want the ends, but I also think the means are lacking.

Trust me, some people, especially some men, are way more convinced by "math" than textual analysis when it comes to issue of representation. When they see statistics, they are much more likely to feel some sort of understanding - in contrast to a deeper argument on, for example, sexualized violence in Hitman Absolution - which despite being a clear-cut case of literal latex strippers getting brutally murdered in various ways - was still being disingeniously argued by an onslaught of men way back when. So I'd say in this case, the means are definitely more than fine.

Finally, you have to realize that when you sit here and talk about disagreeing about the 'means' through which we obtain far greater cultural representation, you place yourself in a context where a whole lot of men lecture women about "agreeing with the goal, but disagreeing with the methods". As a racialized minority, I'm sure you're already aware of this "tradition" of lecturing the oppressed (MLK's Letters from Birmingham Jail is the best explanation of this).

jchap · Jun 15, 2019

My most wanted game was featured with a female though I don't know if it would be counted as having a female protagonist

Andrew-Ryan · Jun 15, 2019

John Kowalski said:
Choice of gender is a meaningless mechanism of representation and honestly shouldn't factor into the conversation. It shouldn't be left to the player to choose what kind of representation they want from a game.

Is this a joke? Honestly can't tell because it sounds like such an extreme opinion it verges on parody.

representation in video games was/is literally about having characters that REPRESENT THE PLAYER.

Biestmann · Jun 15, 2019

laser said:
LOL, spoken like somebody that never needed representation because they were the default. Why do female leads to need to be compelling when male leads don't?

Thanks, you wrote my response to them for me.

julia crawford · Jun 15, 2019

Andrew-Ryan said:
Is this a joke? Honestly can't tell because it sounds like such an extreme opinion it verges on parody.

representation in video games was/is literally about having characters that REPRESENT THE PLAYER.

Uhh, this is a strange one. It's definitely not about representing the player. Concerns about representation, which is a multidisciplinary concern hardly exclusive to videogames, nor even especially different when they're the topic, are about the means that media uses to present any demographic. It's about ensuring that a multitude of games invest in good practices so that they (1st) serve the interests of misrepresented demographics (2nd) build a collective awareness of a demographic that is collectively positive, (3rd) fight against negative archetypes , and a hundred other things. This is not especially about players. Developers shouldn't be concerned about representation of women just because women play games. They should be better about representation because good representation is an ethical good that, though benefiting everyone, benefits especially those who need it the most. It's not just transgender players who benefit from transgender representation. They benefit from it most directly, and benefit the most, but in fact the benefits of it start once positive representation nets positive social change and that is a multi demographic effort. It's not even just the people who play games that benefit/suffer from good/poor representation in videogames. Women who will never even play videogames would benefit from good representation of women through the sheer cultural impact that videogames have on the culture.

Also not a joke and frankly quite easy to see why? Representation shouldn't be a choice that players can choose not to see, it should be integral to the experience of play regardless of whether the player wants it or not.

TaleSpun · Jun 15, 2019

Sankara said:
Finally, you have to realize that when you sit here and talk about disagreeing about the 'means' through which we obtain far greater cultural representation, you place yourself in a context where a whole lot of men lecture women about "agreeing with the goal, but disagreeing with the methods". As a racialized minority, I'm sure you're already aware of this "tradition" of lecturing the oppressed (MLK's Letters from Birmingham Jail is the best explanation of this).

I mean, I'm not lecturing anyone and apologize if it that comes off that way. A key distinction I would make is I'm not even pushing any one strategy over theirs, I'm just not crazy about the use of numbers here. All that with respect to what you've said about how a lot of other men respond to them, and FFs other work as well.

Edit: To be clear, I said "lacking" because that's literally how o feel about the approach here. I don't "disagree" - I would never suggest that data isn't valuable - I think more than just data is required to make the argument.

Karateka · Jun 15, 2019

i guess they have no choice but to bring back joanna dark...
The fact that MS have a famous IP with one of the 2 original female characters and aren't using it is hard to believe.

Female Representation in Video Games Isn't Getting Any Better [WIRED] (Sarkeesian Annual E3 Analysis)

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst

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Took the red AND the blue pills