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Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I think there's a lot of truth to what you're saying. Empathy for dogs and cats and other pet animals is easy; they're usually super cute, and that alone is enough to get the job done. Remove cuteness and it becomes complicated; a warthog isn't really that far from a dog (stay with me here), but I doubt too many people would be lining up to rescue one from a burning building. You have to try harder when it comes to feeling empathy for the non-cutes, be they warthog or non-cute human.

I'm not sure if it's coincidence or you were directly referencing it, but TVTropes has a trope on this that literally names them "non-cutes". :)
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatMeasureisANonCute
In any case, I'm the kind of guy who takes spiders outside instead of killing them, and was horrified when a co-worker told me that a praying mantis had entered their house and they killed it. I am fully aware this makes me a raging hypocrite considering I eat meat, and I do feel guilty about it, but I guess it's like I said: the spider is right there in front of me minding its business, but I'm not in front of the chicken when they kill it. Selfishness and hypocrisy, I'm just less willfully ignorant of it.

I'll leave it there, because it's nearly 1am here and also this is super off-topic now. But good chat.

Thank you!

Edit: Ugh, top of page, here come the posts ridiculing me for the spiders and mantis bit. >_<
 

Doctor Avatar

Member
Jan 10, 2019
2,605
I am addressing directly a specific statement that was made. I will not or engage you if you continue to be this disingenuous trolling attempting to derail the discussion. Feel free to discuss whatever other arguments you want to make with someone who cares.
Your argument is a tu quoque fallacy. And every single person that has responded to it has also pointed out it is fallacious. But go ahead and name call. Enjoy your discussion.

Ultimately, if you take emotion out of the equation, human life is worth more than dog life. So nobody should be offended by dog murder while happily murdering humans.
 
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Karlinel

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Nov 10, 2017
7,826
Mallorca, Spain
Sounds a bit sociopathic having no trouble maiming and blowing up people (who, for all you know, may be trying to raise a family and save granny's farm by joining evil twins' army) but being horrified by the abuse of dogs. And I'm a dog lover (see pic).
 

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,265
There's no dichotomy, just an example: you're focusing on the wrong thing here. You can replace the donation with any (significant) sacrifice for the good of people you don't know. Stop looking at the finger rather than the mountain.

I'm focusing on precisely what I took issue with. You put too much stock into a fallacious question that does your argument - which has merit - no favours.

Yeah, here's an actual, literal example of arguing in bad faith: asking what argument would be acceptable to counter theirs.

If you read the question back, you'll note that I wasn't asking for the counter-argument.

What if I ask you what argument would you acknowledge that would convince you that people are actually selfish?

I don't recall saying I disagreed with your argument; I simply didn't like the question.
 

smash_robot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
994
I love dogs, however I don't really have a problem with dogs being killed in media. I mean, I've shot plenty of them in COD over the years.

The biggest problem with dogs in video games is they make my dog go fucking nuts when they whine or bark. I've killed them sometimes to just calm him down.

Edit: And this is the first time I've heard of this game. It looks good to me.
 

Mugen X

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,744
Colorado
My god it's a video game, if you're not complaining about having to kill hundreds of enemies in every game ever, then I don't see how this is different. It's just a game, no actual animals were killed. And their not encouraging animal cruelty, anyone with sense understands that it's just a game and not to go out strapping bombs to dogs.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I'm focusing on precisely what I took issue with. You put too much stock into a fallacious question that does your argument - which has merit - no favours.

I posited an example. It's you who uncharitably took that example as being the only possible counterargument I could make.

Again, you're looking at the finger (the specific charity example) instead of the mountain (perfect theoretical virtue is exceedingly easy to profess, in the absence of the actual need to practice what one is professing). There are a myriad other examples that can be used to illustrate the point, but I don't think the matter is further illuminated by enumerating every one of them. You can now choose to keep taking issue with the finger, or argue about the mountain.

If you read the question back, you'll note that I wasn't asking for the counter-argument.

Ah, OK, then the answer is yes. That was easy. :)

I don't recall saying I disagreed with your argument; I simply didn't like the question.

Of course you don't; nobody is ever confortable having to question their own virtue, or being reminded of their fundamental selfishness. No such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism and all that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Your argument is a tu quoque fallacy. And every single person that has responded to it has also pointed out it is fallacious. But go ahead and name call. Enjoy your discussion.

Your disingenuous attempt to look for fallacies in the other's arguments instead of actually addressing them is a fallacy itself. I would not have time to write anything meaninful if I had to address every single fallacy from appeal to emotion to direct ad hominems that have been tossed my way in this thread. I have already proven that your previous attempt to pin a fallacy on me were spurious, so I will easily address this one and put you on ignore: calling out inconsistency in moral beliefs is entirely appropriate and on topic when the matter of discussion is moral beliefs.

Ultimately, if you take emotion out of the equation, human life is worth more than dog life. So nobody should be offended by dog murder while happily murdering humans.

If you ultimately take emotion out of the equation, the value of life is zero. There isn't a measurable property called "value" like there is a "mass" or "height"; the universe doesn't give a fuck whether you're alive or dead. Are you sure you want to go down that dark and spiraling path of nihilism?

Actually, don't answer. So long and thank for all the fish.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,304
After reading the thread since last night it really seems that nowhere else on this site do I see so many examples of the same arguments that people elsewhere use to lazily justify other awful things in media: "There are 'other things' happening so why do you care about this?", "The in-media universe says its fine so it's fine!" or the classic "It's just entertainment!" Further afield the amount of times I've seen "yeah but it's tasty lol!" in regards to legitimate concerns over meat consumption or "fuck 'em they get on muh car windows!" when news of mass insect death is released is really quite disturbing. Just to be sure: yes, the "I'd save a dog over a child," posts were disturbing as well.

Ultimately, if you take emotion out of the equation, human life is worth more than dog life. So nobody should be offended by dog murder while happily murdering humans.

If you took emotion out of the equation we wouldn't be human in the first place.
 

Deleted member 1105

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
679
Do people really think killing armed combatants who are shooting you on sight is the same as kicking/beating dogs and strapping suicide vests to them?
 

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,265
I posited an example. It's you who uncharitably took that example as being the only possible counterargument I could make.

We're talking at cross-purposes here. I have at no point said that the use of charities were an issue. It is the form of the question I took issue with, not the variables involved.

Also, I haven't indicated anywhere that it was your "only possible" argument. You trotted it out twice and challenged people to answer it, even though it wasn't very strong to begin with.

If I were being "uncharitable", I might accuse you of strawmanning at this point. Either that, or I'm a terrible writer.

Ah, OK, then the answer is yes. That was easy. :)

Great...

...and what are they? ;)

Of course you don't; nobody is ever confortable having to question their own virtue, or being reminded of their fundamental selfishness.

Woah there, pickle; we're missing each other again.

I have no problem with the overall point you're making. It's not a new one, by any stretch, and you are not the first to make nor consider it. I took issue with the fallacious question you employed to make that point. To put it another way, I found a specific aspect of your debating technique quite disagreeable.
 
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PixelatedDonut

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,966
Philly ❤️
User banned (2 days) Trolling
643fa-dogshit.png
 

Doctor Avatar

Member
Jan 10, 2019
2,605
Your disingenuous attempt to look for fallacies in the other's arguments instead of actually addressing them is a fallacy itself.

I was addressing your dismissal of his argument with a fallacy, I never said anything about your overall position. Much like your "if you really cared about people you would donate all your money to charity" points this sentence has literally nothing to do with the discussion.

Someone illustrated the value of human life being more than dog life with an example, you then commit a tu quoque fallacy to somehow disprove his point. No you committing this fallacy does not automatically make your position wrong, but I never said that was the case did I? Which is why you're misusing the argument from fallacy fallacy when trying to apply it to me. I'm simply pointing out that your rebuttal of his point, which you have been doubling down on despite literally everyone telling you is fallacious, is moot and irrelevant - because it is fallacious.

I said your point was wrong, not your position. Argument from fallacy does not apply.

I would not have time to write anything meaninful if I had to address every single fallacy from appeal to emotion to direct ad hominems that have been tossed my way in this thread. I have already proven that your previous attempt to pin a fallacy on me were spurious, so I will easily address this one and put you on ignore

Nice.

calling out inconsistency in moral beliefs is entirely appropriate and on topic when the matter of discussion is moral beliefs.

This is literally a tu quoque fallacy. It is also called an "appeal to hypocrisy" fallacy for that very reason. Someone not giving up all their worldly possession to save human life does not mean they can't say that a human life is worth more than a dog life. It doesn't mean they are wrong to say a human life is worth more than a dog life either. Their lack of living out what they say (as defined by you and your interpretation of their position, incidentally) has no bearing on the internal logic of what they are saying. Again, this is why it's called an appeal to hypocrisy fallacy.

If you ultimately take emotion out of the equation, the value of life is zero. There isn't a measurable property called "value" like there is a "mass" or "height"; the universe doesn't give a fuck whether you're alive or dead. Are you sure you want to go down that dark and spiraling path of nihilism?

I said take emotion out of the equation, not the human perspective. No the universe doesn't care or place any value on either humans are dogs. That's because the universe isn't sentient. But you can look at things from a human perspective not from a basis of feelings. Ultimately by any metric I can think of in defining value of a life - intelligence, contribution to the community, depth of relationships, knowledge added to the bank of human general consciousness etc a human outweighs a dog. Of course humans have the possibility to cause more harm to the world than a dog, but that is a function of our position - if dogs ruled the world and were more intelligent than us they would likely be no different.

Actually, don't answer. So long and thank for all the fish.

Again, nice.

Honestly I don't really particularly care. You can argue how much a dog's life means to you all you want, I think it's silly to try and dictate to other people what they do or do not value through appeal to hypocrisy, even more silly to think that means you've won a discussion and silliest of all to be upset about dog killing in murder simulators. I apologise if I upset you.
 
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Son of Sparda

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,619
OP's wife walks in on OP playing FC, watching him driving a truck and running over fleeing unarmed injured humans, while shooting an uzi out his window at brainwashed cult victims and throwing molotov cocktails without restraint at innocent bystanders caught in the cross-fire, their high-pitched screams echoing in the night.

"The fuck are you doing?"
"...what?"
"One of your stray bullets hit a dog."
"Oh shit, I'm sorry."
"No fuck that. GET OUT. GET OUT OF MY LIFE."
LMAO
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,304
So are we basing our arguments purely on comedic TV shows now? You can find something like the Atlanta clip for literally any viewpoint out there yet somehow this example of an over-exaggerated caricature can be used as a genuine argument whilst others would most definitely get you blasted with (rightful) criticism.
 
Oct 27, 2017
776
Far Cry 5, I refused to use Boomer (the dog) because if anyone attacked him I lost my shit lol
I had to eventually stop using him (I loved his ability) because the idiot kept running in front of my cars and I ran him over a few dozen times. It got annoying.

I was happy to see the dogs ride in the car with you in New Dawn.
 

IronicSonic

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,639
A lot of specieism in this thread. Violence against any sentient being is bad. Worst if that being isn't in a conflict because he/they want.

Fuck Ubi
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
lol

Isn't killing animals and people in ridiculous ways a series staple at this point?
I mean I don't have a pet moose, deer, or bear

So I have no attachment to those animals. Most humans in video games tend to be shit, especially since 80% of them are trying to kill me. But when a dog ayhacks me I always kill or swiftly with one shot and always mutter a "sorry pup" afterwards.
 

IronicSonic

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,639
play any that involve some sort of violence or destruction
I feel ucomfortable playing violent videogames yes. I usually dont play any game were the goal is shooting human or harm animals.

I know is a videogame. Are you really arguing that? I don't have the option to ignore gore movies because they are disgusting?
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,785
Detroit, MI
I feel ucomfortable playing violent videogames yes. I usually dont play any game were the goal is shooting human or harm animals.

I know is a videogame. Are you really arguing that? I don't have the option to ignore gore movies because they are gross?

Do you also not play video games that involve killing people? That's fine if you don't.
 

Aeferis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,626
Italy
It's a fucking video game. Are you telling me you don't play any that involve some sort of violence or destruction?

Blew up a building or car? "Oh no, an NPC spent time building that"

Are you OK with sexual violence in video games? Derogatory depiction of minorities? Making fun of disabilities? Since I hope and I suppose your answer is no, then the "it's a fucking videogame" argument can't be switched on and off depending on how something personally affects you.

Especially If you think, as I think, that fictional depictions of any topic can have a meaningful impact on the real world.

Comparing the virtual image of an object and the virtual image of a living being is also stupid.

Honestly, some of the posts here feel like a slightly more articulate version of "fucking snowflakes".

---
EDIT: Oh, and most of the same arguments were discussed when that awful mass shooting simulator "Hatred" game was launched, or also with the infamous airport scene in one of the call of duty games so really, cut the "you're fine with killing humans but..." crap.
 
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Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
Member
Oct 25, 2017
60,034
I have no problems maiming virtual human beings, but I draw the line at pixels that resemble a dog.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
Ngl, one time I accidentally started a fight with some ranchers in RDR2, I wanted to stop them shooting so I disarmed them and knocked them out.
Though I didn't know their dog would come at me.

Mf didn't know when to quit, had to kick the little one. Felt bad about the whole thing..

Ah well.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
MrnNoZdT8qnpobkZvrabqP-650-80.jpg


My view on dogs is the same as humans. Once they become suicide bombers all bets are off.
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,507
I'm honestly not going to even entertain the exercise of deciding wether to save my pet or a child just so a few people on a video game forum can discuss ethics 101 and still get it wrong.

It's morbid hat the conversation has even shifted to that.

It also speaks volumes at how the go-to argument is "it's just a game!" or "but you're okay with killing humans!?" Either you all lack the faculties to have this discussion, or you're being willfully obtuse/bad faith.

What kind of ratchet GamerGate-esque argument is "they're just pixels!" or "it's just a game!"? It's suspect as all heck.

Are we gonna say the same about sexualization and objectification in games? "Them tiddies are just pixels, bro." That argument would get you banned no questions asked.

So either you believe content in games has some significance in real life, or you don't. And if you don't, then you're wrong. It's why ratings exist. It's why content warnings exist. It's why this very forum bans certain games.

It's also why people took umbrage with one of the call of duty games (iirc) that had an airport sequence. It's also why people took umbrage with Tomb Raider's treatment of Lara. It's why people talked about TLoU2 when one of the first trailers was a graphic breaking of limbs.

And lo and behold, every time gamers come in without an ounce of shame in their bodies and try to bog the discussions down because they feel the need to defend this content instead of actually discuss and question the implications of it.

Also where the hell did this argument that OP doesn't care about killing humans comes from? There's tons of people who play video games minimizing their casualties and not killing innocent people/animals.

There's layers to it. Most of you just don't have the range to discuss it but still felt the need to jump into the thread to smear sh*t.
 

eso76

Prophet of Truth
Member
Dec 8, 2017
8,120
Relying on dog cruelty to make the bad guys look really bad is kind of a cheap trick but that's it. Rationally speaking it's dogs Vs humans and it's virtual dogs and humans at that.
Other things are still considered taboo in videogames but once you accept murdering people I guess anything goes, really.
 

cognizant

Member
Dec 19, 2017
13,756
I feel ucomfortable playing violent videogames yes. I usually dont play any game were the goal is shooting human or harm animals.

I know is a videogame. Are you really arguing that? I don't have the option to ignore gore movies because they are disgusting?

But judging by your avatar, I assume you're perfectly fine with forcing a hedgehog against its will to run to its death while on its hind-legs to collect gold coins, all for your amusement. Your hypocrisy is disgusting!
 

JK-Money

Attempt to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,558
Its a game people, if something like this triggers you and you have a blur between reality and a video game, maybe you shouldnt play games
 

IronicSonic

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,639
But judging by your avatar, I assume you're perfectly fine with forcing a hedgehog against its will to run to its death while on its hind-legs to collect gold coins, all for your amusement. Your hypocrisy is disgusting!
I'm pretty sure is the hedgehog who is forcing me to play with him If his idle animation is anything to go by
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,252
Bad guys doing fucked up shit is why they're bad guys; I understand the problem, but I don't see it as a disqualifier.