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Sparkedglory2

Member
Nov 3, 2017
6,419
A lot of fanboyism and bad takes in here, yeesh.

Anyway, hopefully this works out well for them. I very much enjoy their games and want nothing more than for them to succeed.
 

LiquidSolid

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,731
On the other hand, the RE Engine seems to be working out well for Capcom.
Nah man, one Japanese publisher failing to develop an internal engine clearly means every Japanese publisher will fail at it, we just gotta ignore the ones who hasn't failed.

I don't know why there's so many people in this thread who find this news hard to believe or are skeptical. Bringing up Square Enix is, to be perfectly honest, a fucking dumb comparison, because Square Enix and Falcom are operating on completely different scales. Square Enix are constantly trying to push technical boundaries with their big AAA releases. Falcom are content with developing mid-tier games. Lots of mid-tier Japanese developers use their own proprietary tech and they work perfectly fine.

And lol at all the fanboy takes in this thread. We even got a Microsoft fanboy jumping in with his corporate buyout dreams.
 

OldGamer

Member
Jul 6, 2019
389
It does seem odd, but it's vague enough right now to assume that the risks have been accounted for. We don't even know the goal of this engine as of now. Could just be some "on paper" engine they have no plan of ever really making.

I mean, it's very safe to assume whatever games they have planned are not prepping to rival Square Enix or Capcom. This engine will most likely be modest, and for all we know will have a very singular function.

The main risk is whether everything goes smoothly and it stays on the planned budget. The other issue is if their fans accept this new engine, since it is possible it could end up worse than what they have been using in at least some facets (see RGG's Dragon Engine).
 

GamingCJ

Member
Apr 14, 2019
1,907
Cold Steel 1-2 bombed on PS4 in Japan, yet that didn't kill Falcom's PS4 support. They were the 4th ports just like Ys VIII Switch too.
Well, there won't be that many PS4 users in Japan who neither owned a PS3 nor Vita.
My guess would be that Falcom hoped to reach a new audience on Switch. But since that failed, they might as well stick to Playstation and save the porting costs.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Well, there won't be that many PS4 users in Japan who neither owned a PS3 nor Vita.
My guess would be that Falcom hoped to reach a new audience on Switch. But since that failed, they might as well stick to Playstation and save the porting costs.
they aren't spending any porting costs. they don't make ports themselves or even publish them for that matter
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
Well, there won't be that many PS4 users in Japan who neither owned a PS3 nor Vita.
My guess would be that Falcom hoped to reach a new audience on Switch. But since that failed, they might as well stick to Playstation and save the porting costs.
How many Falcom fans in general didn't own a PS3 or Vita? Why do years late 4th ports of Falcom games only become a unique audience potential indicator with Switch and not PS4?
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,009
Nah man, one Japanese publisher failing to develop an internal engine clearly means every Japanese publisher will fail at it, we just gotta ignore the ones who hasn't failed.

I don't know why there's so many people in this thread who find this news hard to believe or are skeptical. Bringing up Square Enix is, to be perfectly honest, a fucking dumb comparison, because Square Enix and Falcom are operating on completely different scales. Square Enix are constantly trying to push technical boundaries with their big AAA releases. Falcom are content with developing mid-tier games. Lots of mid-tier Japanese developers use their own proprietary tech and they work perfectly fine.

And lol at all the fanboy takes in this thread. We even got a Microsoft fanboy jumping in with his corporate buyout dreams.
 

lucancel

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,383
Italy
Hopefully this will not slowdown their output which remains consistent and steady. The rest will be nisa problems (dealing with porting of the new engine)
 
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Valcrist

Valcrist

Tic-Tac-Toe Champion
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,703
They gonna have their game go from a ps2 game to a ps3 game now.

FALCOM pls
3QIzjp8.jpg

XX0OKnz.jpg


So you're saying Cold Steel 3 looks like this?
 
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Valcrist

Valcrist

Tic-Tac-Toe Champion
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,703
Why did you choose one of the best looking ps2 games to make your point? lol
Because I wanted to be fair and realistic. That's also why I used native hardware screenshots rather than emulator stuff.

People keep saying "lol PS2 graphics" while forgetting what PS2 games actually look like.
 

Jade1962

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,259
Why would Switch be unique from Vita, where the majority of it's audience migrated? We saw from CS3/4 and Ys IX sales that audience certainly didn't move to PS4.

I don't think Vita audience and Switch audience are very different from each other but you were comparing switch and PS4. Also I think falcon sees it as PlayStation and Nintendo audiences.
 

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,708
Malaysia
Why would Switch be unique from Vita, where the majority of it's audience migrated? We saw from CS3/4 and Ys IX sales that audience certainly didn't move to PS4.

We saw from Ys VIII Switch sales that the audience wasn't *bustling* on the Switch either. And in a few months time, we'll see how CS3 as far as a port of that on the Switch goes.

Falcom has been very consistent in their single-platform position to date, which means that unless they make some changes to their workflow, to go to Switch means not having a PS4 SKU.

There is - undoubtedly, a core amount of Falcom fans who has remained with the PS platform from PSP->3->V->4, and with the growth of sales in Asian regions like Korea/Taiwan/etc ( which, by the way, wasn't served by Nintendo very well until the past 2 years with the Switch ) - to make a decision to shift to Switch exclusively is a huge risk for Falcom.
 

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,708
Malaysia
Are they wondering then why their PlayStation audience halved?

Across the industry, Japanese console gaming market size for many franchises have shrinked as the generation goes by.

What Yakuza/FF/GT/RE/*insert most console franchises* sell today solely in the domestic market are substantially lower in the PS4 era vs the PS3 era, with some exception.

Could the answer for Falcom's woes be "the remaining audience moved to Switch" ? 100%.

The same is also true for the reverse.
 

lucancel

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,383
Italy
Are they wondering then why their PlayStation audience halved?
No because they get profit with licensing and merchandising goods. They make profits and do not worry for Lost Sales.
And Digital sales grow so this also helps the profits.
Imho fewer sales Is a bad thing because means the market Is smaller but so far was not a problem for profits so It Is hidden...imho
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
We saw from Ys VIII Switch sales that the audience wasn't *bustling* on the Switch either. And in a few months time, we'll see how CS3 as far as a port of that on the Switch goes.

Falcom has been very consistent in their single-platform position to date, which means that unless they make some changes to their workflow, to go to Switch means not having a PS4 SKU.
The point was with Ys VIII Switch is it was a years late port and the 4th version of the game. It apparently becomes a focal point for sales potential despite those factors, as if context regarding the release isn't at all relevant. Nevermind overseas it outperformed the other 3 versions combined and is arguably what led to Ys VIII becoming Falcom's best selling title in their history.

The equivalent sort of release on PS4 wouldn't be an original title like CS3 or even an early announced multiplat like Ys VIII, it would also need to a years late 4th version port. Like CS1-2 were, which sold equivalently bad as Ys VIII Switch in Japan and not nearly as well overseas. Basically if this sort of release is your barometer for platform support then Falcom logically should've dropped PS4 just as they've avoided Switch based on Ys VIII domestically.
 

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,708
Malaysia
Selling well 'overseas' is far from being a major influencer of Falcom's platform decisions. And well here - as Kondo stated, PS and Switch sales are about 'even.'

And these are the historical breakdown of contributions of markets for Falcom games:





There's very obviously a simple solution for Falcom's woes. Just develop for 2 platforms (PlayStation and Nintendo)
And yet the fact that they aren't doing that - most likely means that they right now are not able to.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
Across the industry, Japanese console gaming market size for many franchises have shrinked as the generation goes by.

What Yakuza/FF/GT/RE/*insert most console franchises* sell today solely in the domestic market are substantially lower in the PS4 era vs the PS3 era, with some exception.

Could the answer for Falcom's woes be "the remaining audience moved to Switch" ? 100%.

The same is also true for the reverse.
Yakuza/FF/GT/RE/etc weren't really reliant on PSP/Vita sales with their mainline installments though. That's sort of exactly the point, looking to where that handheld specific audience went.

And if we're going to look at the health of platforms domestically, why wave away PlayStation's declining trajectory? And why discount the actual console market leader, which is now selling on par with PS2 aligned, based entirely on a 2 year old outsourced 4th port? Does that strike you as rational or sound?
 

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,708
Malaysia
And if we're going to look at the health of platforms domestically, why wave away PlayStation's declining trajectory? And why discount the actual console market leader, which is now selling on par with PS2 aligned, based entirely on a 2 year old outsourced 4th port? Does that strike you as rational or sound?

Did I discount anything? I never said Switch wasn't the panacea.

As you put it, there are too many disclaimers on the Switch releases on Falcom games to definitely say whether or not the audience is there. And even CS3 port coming next year will be an extremely late port, but it'll be one that is in a better gauging position as it's a first-port and CS3 is well liked in Japan.

I am absolutely not against Falcom putting their games on Switch or anything of that kind. I'm just saying that there is no substantial impetus in the domestic market yet for Falcom to make a sudden shift in their platform strategy to abandon PlayStation's development environment and fanbase.
 

Jade1962

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,259
Selling well 'overseas' is far from being a major influencer of Falcom's platform decisions. And well here - as Kondo stated, PS and Switch sales are about 'even.'

And these are the historical breakdown of contributions of markets for Falcom games:





There's very obviously a simple solution for Falcom's woes. Just develop for 2 platforms (PlayStation and Nintendo)
And yet the fact that they aren't doing that - most likely means that they right now are not able to.


Thanks for the data. I was getting the impression that 90% of Falcons sales were switch by this thread.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
Did I discount anything? I never said Switch wasn't the panacea.

As you put it, there are too many disclaimers on the Switch releases on Falcom games to definitely say whether or not the audience is there. And even CS3 port coming next year will be an extremely late port, but it'll be one that is in a better gauging position as it's a first-port and CS3 is well liked in Japan.

I am absolutely not against Falcom putting their games on Switch or anything of that kind. I'm just saying that there is no substantial impetus in the domestic market yet for Falcom to make a sudden shift in their platform strategy to abandon PlayStation's development environment and fanbase.
I should probably clarify I'm not arguing against your position on this, you see the obvious strategic move that lends itself and the same conclusion that NIS, Gust, Idea Factory, Experience, Mages and other similarly sized PSP/Vita focused Japanese game makers almost universally came to. Go multiplatform; PS4, Switch and (for overseas) PC. What I'm arguing against is Kondo's position (and by extension) Falcom's position on that.

Thanks for the data. I was getting the impression that 90% of Falcons sales were switch by this thread.
How could that even be possible when 90% of their games skip the system? Falcom's high domestic revenue take is pretty well known and it makes sense given it's the only region they selfpublish in.
 

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,708
Malaysia
All of the publishers above chose to go multiplat instead of Switch exclusive - because even now - many games from NIS, Gust, IF, etc sell around half ( anywhere from 40-60% ) of their multiplat releases on PS4, even with a Switch version day and date in Japan.

I should probably clarify I'm not arguing against your position on this, you see the obvious strategic move that lends itself and the same conclusion that NIS, Gust, Idea Factory, Experience, Mages and other similarly sized PSP/Vita focused Japanese game makers almost universally came to. Go multiplatform; PS4, Switch and (for overseas) PC. What I'm arguing against is Kondo's position (and by extension) Falcom's position on that.

Note that my position in air quotes "defense" of Kondo isn't arguing why they shouldn't go multiplat.

It's why they shouldn't jump from developing solely on PS4 -> solely on Switch, in which the healthy split of PS4:Switch sales is one of said reasons, among others.

My preferred position for Kondo would be for them to figure out how to develop both SKUs simultenously, either internally themselves - or involving a external partner who can develop ports of their games to be released either day and date, or at least - far sooner than their current arrangement with NIS.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,235
I should probably clarify I'm not arguing against your position on this, you see the obvious strategic move that lends itself and the same conclusion that NIS, Gust, Idea Factory, Experience, Mages and other similarly sized PSP/Vita focused Japanese game makers almost universally came to. Go multiplatform; PS4, Switch and (for overseas) PC. What I'm arguing against is Kondo's position (and by extension) Falcom's position on that.
Falcom is kinda small and multiplat development might be too much for them, they simply pick PlayStation as primary target (for better or worse).
 

Deleted member 26768

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,765
Falcom's been around since the early days of gaming. How come they're still relatively small as a company?
they have a small but consistent base because of several reasons, they where on par with squaresoft and enix in the early days but never made the jump to consoles until the PSP days, fully jumping on console development when the PC market completely collapsed. And then they try to be fully self sufficient which is the bigger factor slowing down growth, someone actually asked about that year. Kondo and Kato prefer paying for investments out of the pocket rather than taking a loan with the bank.
They saw that all popular middleware engines support the Switch and decided to instead cook up something themselves...that for some reason will only support PS4 and PS5 xD

Nah but honestly this sounds really dumb....they should be focusing on game creating new games instead of trying to develop their crystal engine.
nobody is creating a new crystal engine, this decision is a direct result of having issues with their old engine and phyre not being able to handle their wishes either, they informed themselves with other engines, Epic tried to court them. And in the end they decided it would be more cost efficient to build a new engine themselves. They already have expertise with this.
Thanks for the data. I was getting the impression that 90% of Falcons sales were switch by this thread.
isn't that always the case?
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
All of the publishers above chose to go multiplat instead of Switch exclusive - because even now - many games from NIS, Gust, IF, etc sell around half ( anywhere from 40-60% ) of their multiplat releases on PS4, even with a Switch version day and date in Japan.



Note that my position in air quotes "defense" of Kondo isn't arguing why they shouldn't go multiplat.

It's why they shouldn't jump from developing solely on PS4 -> solely on Switch, in which the healthy split of PS4:Switch sales is one of said reasons, among others.

My preferred position for Kondo would be for them to figure out how to develop both SKUs simultenously, either internally themselves - or involving a external partner who can develop ports of their games to be released either day and date, or at least - far sooner than their current arrangement with NIS.
Oh sure, and in many cases those sales had to be earned by building and cultivating an audience by actually bringing games to Switch even when they were being outsold 2:1 or 3:1 in the early days of the platform. Just the same as many of those same developers did on PS4 too several years earlier with similarly low upfront ratios.

Like you I think the better option for Falcom would be pushing for internal multiplatform Switch support or at least partnering with the aim of more timely Switch ports. And who knows, maybe CS3 will lend more impetus in that direction with it's domestic sales. I'm not that hopeful though, based on past precedent I expect we're more likely to just get more flimsy excuses and rationalizations from Kondo as to why Switch support is completely untenable for Falcom.

Falcom is kinda small and multiplat development might be too much for them, they simply pick PlayStation as primary target (for better or worse).
Kondo's actually used this bandwidth defense before but it's pretty amusing when (1) other similarly sized and even smaller yet equally prolific studios are managing PS4/Switch multiplatform releases, (2) multiplatform support magically didn't seem to be a staffing issue when it came to Falcom making games across PS3/Vita/PS4 and (3) it also doesn't appear to be an issue with outsourced catalog games they're now bringing to PS4 but not Switch (Ao/Zero, Celcita). It's an excuse that falls flat on face value with even the tiniest bit of research and one everyone should see through really.
 

cw_sasuke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,400
nobody is creating a new crystal engine, this decision is a direct result of having issues with their old engine and phyre not being able to handle their wishes either, they informed themselves with other engines, Epic tried to court them. And in the end they decided it would be more cost efficient to build a new engine themselves. They already have expertise with this.
And thats totally fine - im just commenting on those developments as an outsider looking in, they sure have good enough reasons of why they think going with their own engine is a good use of their resources.

Its just funny to see a dev that was able to develop PSP/PS4 and PSV/PS4 content suddenly stated lack of resources as reasoning when it came to developing games on Switch. Yet, they have resources to develop and create their own engine in this era that is filled with alot efficient engines for all kind of games with multiplattform support.

At the end of the day....if it works out for them., we will benefit from it and their increased quality output. So lets see what kind of improvements their own engine will bring to the table.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
Yes but i think that even if Falcom games would be release on PS4 and Switch at the same time, PS4 sales would be much higher.
At this point yes but if they'd started on Switch earlier and cultivated an audience there like they did for PS4 then they'd probably be pretty similar now. And if they'd done that important base building then CS3 might not have massively declined in sales from CS1/CS2 like it did.
 

hubertuss03

Banned
Oct 9, 2018
1,182
At this point yes but if they'd started on Switch earlier and cultivated an audience there like they did for PS4 then they'd probably be pretty similar now. And if they'd done that important base building then CS3 might not have massively declined in sales from CS1/CS2 like it did.
CS3-4 had big drop in sales because game was only on PS4 vs PS3/PSV. BUT:
- CS3 had highest digital sales in series. Digital sales now are much bigger than few years ago
- we not know ltd sales. Maybe games sold more units despite weaker launch sales?
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
CS3-4 had big drop in sales because game was only on PS4 vs PS3/PSV. BUT:
- CS3 had highest digital sales in series. Digital sales now are much bigger than few years ago
- we not know ltd sales. Maybe games sold more units despite weaker launch sales?
Ys IX was also a similarly big decline from Ys VIII. Again, there's an obvious reason for this and an obvious way to mitigate it, one that basically every other midsize and smaller Japanese publisher has already figured out.
 

Deleted member 26768

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,765
User Banned (2 Days): Trolling
Ys IX was also a similarly big decline from Ys VIII. Again, there's an obvious reason for this and an obvious way to mitigate it, one that basically every other midsize and smaller Japanese publisher has already figured out.
thErE'S An oBvioUs ReasoN FOR thIS AnD an oBVIous WaY tO mItigAtE IT, oNe ThAT bAsIcaLlY eveRY OTHER MIdsIze AnD SmalleR jApANESE pUBLiShEr hAs aLreAdy FIgUReD oUt.
 

Fisico

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,106
Paris
CS3-4 had big drop in sales because game was only on PS4 vs PS3/PSV. BUT:
- CS3 had highest digital sales in series. Digital sales now are much bigger than few years ago
- we not know ltd sales. Maybe games sold more units despite weaker launch sales?

We do know

Retail numbers, from MC yearly reports
Cold Steel PSV+PS3 129+103=232k
Cold Steel 2 PSV+PS3 125+92=217k
Cold Steel 3 PS4 118k
Cold Steel 4 PS4 116k

1 - You can probably add a few thousands copies for CS4 on PS4 for 2019 maybe a couple for CS3
2 - Cold Steel 1&2 didn't have 0 digital copy sold
3 - Digital share for PS4 games is higher, no doubt, notably so even, but nowhere near enough to mitigate the drop in retail sales

Just guess on my end
1 - You can consider CS 1 & 2 to be in the ~250k range
2 - A generous 33% digital share for CS3/CS4 would put them at 180k, super optimistic prediction closer to 200k, a more realistic one somewhere around 150-170k
 

Verder

Member
Oct 28, 2017
354
3QIzjp8.jpg

XX0OKnz.jpg


So you're saying Cold Steel 3 looks like this?

In response to both of y'all who quoted me.
I love FALCOM and their stories within their games . But like I can't get over how they are cutting corners in terms of engine . Especially given being 2020 damn near. Atlus was doing it for a second with their titles but then started putting in that money (certain ip's of course). FALCOM seems to be cutting corners on every title . YS IX was kinda hard on me.
graphics are not their strong point it's the music and stories of course. But I wish they would put in some bigger production . We will see !
 

Erpy

Member
May 31, 2018
2,997
Hopefully this will not slowdown their output which remains consistent and steady. The rest will be nisa problems (dealing with porting of the new engine)

Japanese tender feelings notwithstanding, I personally wouldn't lose sleep over Falcom's output slowing down for a year or so, the west being a whopping 5 games behind within less than a year and all.
 

MrCinos

Member
Oct 26, 2017
740
I dunno how they can do that at their size and still put out a huge game every year (it's only in the last year or so that they passed sixty employees total).
I'd like to know how your average Falcon employee day lasts. With so many titles on their hands (I assume Tokyo Xanadu 2 is also planned), I hope they aren't in a state of permanent crunch.
 

Fisico

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,106
Paris
In response to both of y'all who quoted me.
I love FALCOM and their stories within their games . But like I can't get over how they are cutting corners in terms of engine . Especially given being 2020 damn near. Atlus was doing it for a second with their titles but then started putting in that money (certain ip's of course). FALCOM seems to be cutting corners on every title . YS IX was kinda hard on me.

Atlus started increasing budget when the Persona entries were nearing 1M sales worldwide (>300k from Japan) on a severely underperforming platform, they also have a lot of different teams (including external ones) they can rely on in case one IP underperform, Falcom hasn't so much, is doing everything internally and is faaaaar from having a game nearing 1M, probably closer to half that for their best selling titles.
Not taking care themselves of western publishing they probably don't reap as much benefits there unlike Atlus which does thanks to their USA branch (which also publish games which weren't made by Atlus JP)
 

Deleted member 9746

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,406
Atlus started increasing budget when the Persona entries were nearing 1M sales worldwide (>300k from Japan) on a severely underperforming platform, they also have a lot of different teams (including external ones) they can rely on in case one IP underperform, Falcom hasn't so much, is doing everything internally and is faaaaar from having a game nearing 1M, probably closer to half that for their best selling titles.
Not taking care themselves of western publishing they probably don't reap as much benefits there unlike Atlus which does thanks to their USA branch (which also publish games which weren't made by Atlus JP)
I think CS1 has reached the 1M milestone (to my knowledge the only Trails game that has done so).
 
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