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Deleted member 11637

Oct 27, 2017
18,204
KbYaQi0.png


that one guy with an actual question loves this


(Also fuck the "the main dev" rhetoric, I don't see anyone from the team speaking up or moderating anything, so I absolutely assume the entire team stands behind this shit)

God only knows how much Gamergate/alt-right radicalization is happening in plain view on these Steam forums.
 
Mar 22, 2020
96
People found some opinions of yours that shows a pattern of thinking that, to many of us, is the usual bullshit we hear while we're fighting for progress. This is all ingrained thinking behind all of your opinions here, and is valid to be brought up to show where you're coming from.

You decided to post here, openly, if you can't take that minimal heat then don't?
I can take the heat and I freely invite people to dissect every single post I've written. However, I would ask why they think it's relevant to the conversation in the first place? Are people attempting to place me on some contrived political platform based on only one or two other posts I've made? By doing so, my supposed alignment with other unrelated issues somehow makes my current stance invalid? Is this not a clear case of whataboutism?

Right here:



This is you dismissing clear and obvious concerns with bigotry.

And you keep going back off track: this thread isn't about Uncle Bob's software design principles. It is about the Factorio developer's absolutely insane response to someone calmly pointing out the bigotry involved.

And most importantly, you are writing off racism as a "political view."
How exactly is that stance "dismissing" bigotry?

And you seem to have made it your goal to completely ignore everything else I've written because it doesn't fit neatly in the political bucket you've assigned me. I'll keep replying while you keep up this nonsensical tirade.

And lastly, there have been many false accusations of Uncle Bob being racist. If this is absolutely not the case and you have done your research, please point me to definitive proof and I'll kindly step down.
 
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Mar 22, 2020
96
My only take on the cancel culture war is that I think you should still be free to separate work from the worker in a pragmatic way. An expanded version of "death of the artist" if you will.

I had to read Uncle Bob stuff during my Computer Science degree and had no idea about his history outside of programming theory. I feel like people should still be free to use and discuss his work even if he's a shitty person. I would personally include a blurb about the things I don't like about him if I ever mentioned his stuff in writing. Focus on the work, not the creator.

Basically I think knowledge/utility remains useful even if the people behind it are shitty. People should be informed if something is bad, but I don't like the idea that someone's work is canceled alongside their public persona. People are smart enough to evaluate things and realize "this is a good programming technique to use and modify even if the guy who made it is terrible".

Nothing against calling people out for their actions, I just don't like the "voldemort" aspect that sometimes gets applied. Don't give these people awards or props, but don't throw away their harmless contributions.
Thank you for posting this.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,902
I can take the heat and I freely invite people to dissect every single post I've written. However, I would ask why they think it's relevant to the conversation in the first place? Are people attempting to place me on some imaginary political platform based on only one or two other posts I've made? By doing so, my supposed alignment with other unrelated issues somehow makes my current stance invalid? Is this not a clear case of whataboutism?
As I said, it is important because it contextualises your opinions here. That is not what whataboutism means, btw, we are not deflecting a question an issue raised with another one (that's whataboutism), we are saying your overall post history contextualises your beliefs and helps us see where you are coming from. If you became a regular poster here, over time this would give you a reputation. Looking into your post history shows a snapshot of what that might be and is useful to understand your points.

And, honestly, you are very dismissive of these things in general. Like your ACAB comments... the reason ACAB exists is because the "good cops" never stand up together in unison against the bad, they are willingly part of the problem and complicit via their inaction.

And here, the same dismissive idea perpetuates... there is clear reason why some of us would like to know if a person holds political beliefs and has made statements that are the antithesis of our existences. Trump and his ilk actively opposed LGBTQ rights, for example, and Uncle Bob has retweeted statements that directly fuel this and show his support for the mindset.

So yes, you have shown a hisotry of this and for people debating you now it is good to be informed about that, many people are going to be too exhausted dealig with this stuff so it will be a good note for them to just duck out of interactions with you. That's fair, that's your reputation here, if it's the one you proudly want to cultivate and stand behind then you need to take the reactions of those who oppose it too.


Thank you for posting this.
That is not a post worthy of thanks, and you have missed the point here again.

I can take the heat and I freely invite people to dissect every single post I've written. However, I would ask why they think it's relevant to the conversation in the first place? Are people attempting to place me on some imaginary political platform based on only one or two other posts I've made? By doing so, my supposed alignment with other unrelated issues somehow makes my current stance invalid? Is this not a clear case of whataboutism?


How exactly is that stance "dismissing" bigotry?

And you seem to have made it your goal to completely ignore everything else I've written because it doesn't fit neatly in the political bucket you've assigned me. I'll keep replying while you keep up this nonsensical tirade.

And lastly, there have been many false accusations of Uncle Bob being racist. If this is absolutely not the case and you have done your research, please point me to definitive proof and I'll kindly step down.
Him supporting a racist, anti-LGBT, bigoted leader like Trump, literally quoting the man's statement against calls for progress... you don't need to overtly say "I'm a racist/bigot/anti-lgbt" to be that, and you don't get to support people like Trump and his like and pick and choose the impact you have and say "but that's not me!!!".
 

Jamesac68

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,385
KbYaQi0.png


that one guy with an actual question loves this


(Also fuck the "the main dev" rhetoric, I don't see anyone from the team speaking up or moderating anything, so I absolutely assume the entire team stands behind this shit)

"This will be the first game I buy when it's on sale" is a particular favorite. That's one way to show support for your SJW-hating hero developer, by never buying the game.
 

Klyka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,435
Germany
God only knows how much Gamergate/alt-right radicalization is happening in plain view on these Steam forums.
The steam forums are an ABSOLUTE cesspool
unknown.png


This is from the Lost Ark Alpha steam forum. Windsward is a dev who has been answering a ton of questions. This is an entire thread about people saying the "game is censored" and the dev keeps telling them it is not.
It then devolved into those people homing in on the localization team of the game wanting to add more diverse characters and customization and how that is "destroying the original vision" and other shitty stuff like that

"This will be the first game I buy when it's on sale" is a particular favorite. That's one way to show support for your SJW-hating hero developer, by never buying the game.

"I will support these people! .... at the lowest price possible"
That is PURE conservatists
 

ZeoVGM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
76,109
Providence, RI
And lastly, there have been many false accusations of Uncle Bob being racist. If this is absolutely not the case and you have done your research, please point me to definitive proof and I'll kindly step down.

No problem.





(That tweet is him quoting Trump.)

Ecr8TRHVAAEbf-8


Ecr8SYTUYAECRPs


I very much look forward to you explaining how a man who voted for Trump, denies that America was founded on slavery, says that kneeling NFL players are "son of bitches" who "disgust" him and claiming that police do not target people of color is somehow not racist.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,929
Canada
Invoking "cancel culture" is doing exactly what the dev intended. Instead of the discussion revolving around what a nut the dev is for responding like that, now we have people crawling out of the woodwork to whine about "cancel culture" in (extremely) general.
 

Deleted member 11637

Oct 27, 2017
18,204
Invoking "cancel culture" is doing exactly what the dev intended. Instead of the discussion revolving around what a nut the dev is for responding like that, now we have people crawling out of the woodwork to whine about "cancel culture" in (extremely) general.

Nah, it's good they're exposing themselves. All this feigned ignorance and debate club bullshit is transparent as hell.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,891
No problem.





(That tweet is him quoting Trump.)

Ecr8TRHVAAEbf-8


Ecr8SYTUYAECRPs


I very much look forward to you explaining how a man who voted for Trump, denies that America was founded on slavery, says that kneeling NFL players are "son of bitches" who "disgust" him and claiming that police do not target people of color is somehow not racist.


Pretty damning evidence.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,929
Canada
Modern form for stoning, hanging, public execution. In medieval ages, was a form of entertainment. Today people use twitter.

The_Manner_of_Execution_at_Tyburn.jpg

Oh good, another one.

A groundswell of people objecting to someone's behavior =/= "stoning, hanging, public execution."

There have been plenty of historical cases of people being outraged at someone's opinions without it leading to violence. It's not a new thing, and equivocating it with outright violence is nutty and shows your hand.
 
Mar 22, 2020
96
As I said, it is important because it contextualises your opinions here. That is not what whataboutism means, btw, we are not deflecting a question an issue raised with another one (that's whataboutism), we are saying your overall post history contextualises your beliefs and helps us see where you are coming from. If you became a regular poster here, over time this would give you a reputation. Looking into your post history shows a snapshot of what that might be and is useful to understand your points.
I see where you're coming from with this. I believe that context is important when trying to understand someone's perspective. I raise a question: what context is relevant for this discussion and why?

So yes, you have shown a hisotry of this and for people debating you now it is good to be informed about that, many people are going to be too exhausted dealig with this stuff so it will be a good note for them to just duck out of interactions with you. That's fair, that's your reputation here, if it's the one you proudly want to cultivate and stand behind then you need to take the reactions of those who oppose it too.
I have no history of debating with people (a single reply doesn't really qualify - in my book, at least). In fact, this is the first time I've openly engaged in debate on this site. This is very exhausting for me as well, but I'll manage somehow. And they only have to deal with one user!

Anyhow, the original issue had already resolved itself, but others feel the need to keep taking shots at me well after the fact.

That is not a post worthy of thanks, and you have missed the point here again.
I thanked the user for the post because it shed light on the underlying issue:
  • Separate work from the worker
  • Separate art from the artist
  • Separate good from the bad
... And many other flavors of the same concept. This ultimately boils down to my primary (only) stance on the matter. If we can't agree on this then I respectfully ask that we agree to disagree.

Him supporting a racist, anti-LGBT, bigoted leader like Trump, literally quoting the man's statement against calls for progress... you don't need to overtly say "I'm a racist/bigot/anti-lgbt" to be that, and you don't get to support people like Trump and his like and pick and choose the impact you have and say "but that's not me!!!".
Please see above.
 

Flappy Pannus

Member
Feb 14, 2019
2,340
God only knows how much Gamergate/alt-right radicalization is happening in plain view on these Steam forums.
Really just close em down at this point, reddit can be awful as well but I find it does a better job with support forums for games with actual moderation. Keep the community pages up and such, but the Steam forums are just pointless.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,929
Canada
(Deacon's all-quote post)

It may be valid for you to think "I don't care about A because he's good at B", but it's also valid for people to think less of you for bragging about not caring about A. You have the luxury of overlooking A, other people don't.

Letting people do whatever they want because they're good at something is the cause of a number of society's problems.
 

nando3d

Banned
Feb 20, 2021
129
Oh good, another one.

A groundswell of people objecting to someone's behavior =/= "stoning, hanging, public execution."

There have been plenty of historical cases of people being outraged at someone's opinions without it leading to violence. It's not a new thing, and equivocating it with outright violence is nutty and shows your hand.
Sick, dude, who's the last person cancel culture killed? I'd like to read their obituary.

I know, but the behavior is similar. I don't judge, people can do whatever they want, I was only appoint the psychological motivation behind the cancel culture. Today we just "throw virtual stones" on people that have a bad behavior. Thanks to technological evolution, we don't murder people anymore. But the line is tenuous.
 
Mar 22, 2020
96
No problem.





(That tweet is him quoting Trump.)

Ecr8TRHVAAEbf-8


Ecr8SYTUYAECRPs


I very much look forward to you explaining how a man who voted for Trump, denies that America was founded on slavery, says that kneeling NFL players are "son of bitches" who "disgust" him and claiming that police do not target people of color is somehow not racist.

The implications are quite heavy, but are still not conclusive. I will admit that it's very likely he at least holds some political bias. Very well, I step down.

However, I will remind you that I stated many times that I do not support Uncle Bob's views. As I had said to another poster, my stance ultimately boils down to this:
I thanked the user for the post because it shed light on the underlying issue:
  • Separate work from the worker
  • Separate art from the artist
  • Separate good from the bad
... And many other flavors of the same concept. This ultimately boils down to my primary (only) stance on the matter. If we can't agree on this then I respectfully ask that we agree to disagree.

I realize this is not the core issue at hand for this thread. I already responded to people several pages back when that was pointed out and things were resolved amicably. Forgive me if I don't respond well to posters repeatedly taking shots at me afterward.
 
Oct 27, 2017
454
The implications are quite heavy, but are still not conclusive. I will admit that it's very likely he at least holds some political bias. Very well, I step down.

However, I will remind you that I stated many times that I do not support Uncle Bob's views. As I had said to another poster, my stance ultimately boils down to this:


I realize this is not the core issue at hand for this thread. I already responded to people several pages back when that was pointed out and things were resolved amicably. Forgive me if I don't respond well to posters repeatedly taking shots at me afterward.
"Uncle Bob" will never love you no matter how many posts you make sucking his bigoted dick.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,902
Steam forums is a a pretty pure slice of "gamer energy" when it comes to these things. I
I thanked the user for the post because it shed light on the underlying issue:
  • Separate work from the worker
  • Separate art from the artist
  • Separate good from the bad
... And many other flavors of the same concept. This ultimately boils down to my primary (only) stance on the matter. If we can't agree on this then I respectfully ask that we agree to disagree.
I'm sorry, but I'm not going to just agree to disagree on this as I believe this is the crux of the issue here and you should understand where we are coming from fully.

I thought I explained it concisely, and this is an honest attempt for your to understand our perspective here, so I'll try once more:

It is easy to say "separate art from the artist", and at a glance it seems like a logical thing to do. If a person produces a work that is valuable, then their political views or hateful things they say don't directly diminish the value of the work they did. That work, standing in a vacuum, still has meaningful value.

It does not stand in a vacuum, though. If you support a person's work, you support the person. If you support the person, your support helps perpetuate everything they are able to do because of that support.

Even if you outright state and make it clear you condone their actions/beliefs and only find value in their work, you are still signal boosting the person and their beliefs and helping them spread.

For some of us, there is a line we cannot cross here. If a person's beliefs and support are the literal antithesis of our lives (LGBTQ - trans women specially here, non-white peoples, etc...), then "separation of art from the artist" becomes an unfathomable thing. How can we do that, lend support to a person who is actively harming us and our rights? How can we NOT raise awareness here for those how care about the same things?

Now, you might not personally feel the weight of this. Perhaps the things you separate from the artist do not directly affect you, or perhaps they do and you are somehow able to let them go. Minorities are not a monolith, it is fine if you can personally do this.

However, when you come into a thread like this and dismiss the above with calls IN GENERAL to "separate art from artist" and lamenting the fact people don't seem to be able to do this, you are actively dismissing the reasons why people DO do this.


Much like your ACAB comments. I understand why a person might think "but not all cops are terrible people", but that is not what the phrase is saying. It is commenting on the "brother hood of silence and complicity via inaction that allows for the truly bad cops to do what they do. For example, the 50 cops who walked out of their riot squad positions recently after an officer who assaulted a women was charged... where were all the good cops standing up together to call this out? This doesn't happen, hence: ACAB.

You're free to debate against the above, that is your right, but dismissing the concerns of others or not even taking the time to inform yourself why or acknowledge them when they are explained is a hallmark of people we meet who express views like your own. Understanding all of this, it is easy to see why your posts have had the reactions they did.

You are free to ignore this, you are free to carry on posting as you are, I can't force an understanding on you. I just hop[e that, even if you disagree with us, you can understand why we are responding the way we are.

The implications are quite heavy, but are still not conclusive.
I'm sorry, but they are conclusive here imo. You absolutely cannot support the above without directly supporting the racism that is the root cause of it all. And this is another reason "separation of good and bad" is simply not feasible for many people, and it should be easy to understand why this is.
 
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