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SilentPanda

Member
Nov 6, 2017
14,001
Earth
Boeing and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) worked together to manipulate 737 Max recertification tests following two fatal crashes in 2018 and 2019, according to a damning new Senate report. Boeing "inappropriately coached" some FAA test pilots to reach a desired outcome during the recertification tests, and some were even performed on simulators that weren't equipped to re-create the same conditions as the crashes.

The FAA is also accused of retaliating against whistleblowers, possibly obstructing the Office of the Inspector General's investigation into the crashes, failing to hold senior managers accountable, and allowing Southwest Airlines to operate dozens of improperly certified planes.

"Our findings are troubling," Sen. Roger Wicker (R-MS), who chairs the committee, said in a statement. "The report details a number of significant examples of lapses in aviation safety oversight and failed leadership in the FAA. It is clear that the agency requires consistent oversight to ensure their work to protect the flying public is executed fully and correctly."

In one particular FAA test performed on the right simulator, a whistleblower says Boeing officials were present and told the test pilots when to hit the switch that killed MCAS.

When these actions were reported by whistleblowers, they were often ignored or retaliated against, according to the report.

www.theverge.com

FAA and Boeing manipulated 737 Max tests during recertification

A blistering new Senate report details multiple safety failures.

Thank you ryodi for the update

The report
www.commerce.senate.gov

Wicker Releases Committee’s FAA Investigation Report

U.S. Sen. Roger Wicker, R-Miss., chairman of the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation, today released the Committee’s investigation report on the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). This investigation began in April of 2019, weeks after the second of two tragic crashes of...
 

Koukalaka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,386
Scotland
Thank god there's competition in the form of Airbus - imagine how scary it would be if Boeing was the only sizable manufacturer of airliners?
 

direct_quote

Member
Oct 25, 2017
809
All I got to say is yikes. I was planning on avoiding taking this plane anyway, and this just proves that paranoia was right.. FAA needs to be investigated immediately.
 

SmokeMaxX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,337
Throwing this out there, but why don't they just- you know- get rid of the software that makes the plane (potentially) a flying death trap?
 

GoldenEye 007

Roll Tide, Y'all!
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,833
Texas
Throwing this out there, but why don't they just- you know- get rid of the software that makes the plane (potentially) a flying death trap?
The software is needed to compensate for the design changes Boeing made with the engine size and placement. Without it, they'd also have to certify it as a different plane, which negates their main selling point to airlines being able to use existing 737 pilots to be trained with minimal recertification and no sim training. Rather than pilots having to be certified to fly a different aircraft. Which I believe you can't be certified for more than one plane at a time. Which would mean airlines would have to hire a bunch more pilots and/or buy more planes and dump their existing 737s faster.
 

Sulik2

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,168
It's incredible how a company as legendary as boring can put number crunchers in charge and immediately they turn criminal for money. Capitalism is a disease.
 

SmokeMaxX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,337
The new engines are too large for the 60s-era airframe. The software was put there to protect from stalls due to the now front-heavy design
The software is needed to compensate for the design changes Boeing made with the engine size and placement. Without it, they'd also have to certify it as a different plane, which negates their main selling point to airlines being able to use existing 737 pilots to be trained with minimal recertification and no sim training. Rather than pilots having to be certified to fly a different aircraft. Which I believe you can't be certified for more than one plane at a time. Which would mean airlines would have to hire a bunch more pilots and/or buy more planes and dump their existing 737s faster.
Perhaps I worded my post incorrectly. It's my understanding that what caused the fatal crashes overseas was a new unintuitive system combined with insufficient training of pilots (due to airlines not wanting to pay for optional "training DLC"). Can the software not be reworked so that it's more intuitive and doesn't "accidentally" lead to hundreds of people tragically dying in a totally avoidable plane crash?
 
OP
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SilentPanda

SilentPanda

Member
Nov 6, 2017
14,001
Earth
Perhaps I worded my post incorrectly. It's my understanding that what caused the fatal crashes overseas was a new unintuitive system combined with insufficient training of pilots (due to airlines not wanting to pay for optional "training DLC"). Can the software not be reworked so that it's more intuitive and doesn't "accidentally" lead to hundreds of people tragically dying in a totally avoidable plane crash?

That was what this new "recertification" was supposed to fix.

But it didn't, since they need to coach the test pilot and make fake success.
 
Nov 1, 2017
3,071
Didn't they also rebrand them to some generic name so customers wouldn't be concerned? I would not want to fly on one of those planes, especially in light of this new report... Although, depressingly, the results don't surprise me.
 
OP
OP
SilentPanda

SilentPanda

Member
Nov 6, 2017
14,001
Earth
Didn't they also rebrand them to some generic name so customers wouldn't be concerned? I would not want to fly on one of those planes, especially in light of this new report... Although, depressingly, the results don't surprise me.
Yes, it's now called 737-8

www.theguardian.com

Boeing publicises new name for 737 Max planes after crashes

Statement unveiling new order from Polish airline calls it a 737-8 aircraft first, before noting it is a Max jet
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,740
This. MBAs and other money-first paper pushers are leading the charge to financialize even the most technical of industries to the detriment of society at large. This financialization is a poisoning of industry in general that needs to be stopped in its tracks or the entire economy risks becoming a house of cards (moreso than it already is).
 

cameron

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
23,857



Senate investigators concluded that Boeing "inappropriately coached" government pilots for a simulator test that was part of the Federal Aviation Administration's efforts to ensure that the company's 737 Max could be made safe to fly again after two deadly crashes.
The conclusion is contained in a report issued Friday by the Senate Commerce Committee on an investigation that was launched after the Max crashes but that ultimately broadened to unearth numerous safety problems across the FAA.
The July 2019 simulator test was designed to determine whether pilots could quickly react to faulty software implicated in the two crashes, which killed 346 people. A whistleblower alleged that Boeing officials prompted test pilots to be ready to use the correct controls to respond, telling them, "Remember, get right on that pickle switch."
Even with that prompt, one of the pilots took four times longer to respond than Boeing and the FAA had assumed.
A Transportation Department lawyer prohibited an FAA employee, whom investigators understood to be one of the pilots, from answering questions about the incident in an interview, according to the report.
"The Committee concludes FAA and Boeing officials involved in the conduct of this test had established a predetermined outcome" to reaffirm their assumptions about pilot reactions, the investigators wrote.
The incident suggests that problems arising from the close relationship between Boeing and the FAA, which other investigators have said affected the initial safety certification of the Max, also affected at least the early stage of efforts to reauthorize the jets to fly.
"We have learned many hard lessons from the Lion Air Flight 610 and Ethiopian Flight 302 accidents, and we will never forget the lives lost on board," Boeing said in a statement. "The events and lessons learned have reshaped our company and further focused our attention on our core values of safety, quality, and integrity."
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
boeing said:
"The events and lessons learned have reshaped our company and further focused our attention on our core values of safety, quality, and integrity."
ishethough.png
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,293
Dark Space
And this salacious exposé will come and go like a fart in the wind, with not even a slap on the wrist.
 

4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,531
Perhaps I worded my post incorrectly. It's my understanding that what caused the fatal crashes overseas was a new unintuitive system combined with insufficient training of pilots (due to airlines not wanting to pay for optional "training DLC"). Can the software not be reworked so that it's more intuitive and doesn't "accidentally" lead to hundreds of people tragically dying in a totally avoidable plane crash?
If it was possible, then they probably would have done that in the first place. The problem that the Max 8 was designed to solve was to have a pilot certified for 737 to switch to the new plane without having to do any retraining. The issue with this is that the Max 8 performs differently on takeoffs and Boeing's solution to this is the invasive MCAS software. And I think that this is the fundamental (and ultimately unsolvable) problem: if the software isn't invasive then the planes will perform differently and the pilots will have to be retrained. If the software is invasive then it leads to planes crashing. If was any feasible fix then Boeing would have done it already and avoided this whole mess. The fact that they keep on trying to cheat is a sign that they have nothing.
 

BlueStarEXSF

Member
Dec 3, 2018
4,519
They keep making a mockery of the industry. They haven't learned shit. God damn it. Throw some of those higher up in jail and do something about FAA management.
 

Freezasaurus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,103
What on Earth is it with these clowns? It reminds me of the Trump administration's COVID response. They put so much fucking effort into cutting corners instead of just doing shit properly which would have saved time, money, and lives.
 

sfedai0

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,050
I laughed out loud when the FAA "certified" the Max to fly again. Not only does Boeing needs their management to be dismantled, so does the FAA.
 

Lexad

"This guy are sick"
Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,064
And yet other countries are certifying this that weren't coached. I have some questions about this.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
All FAA certifications should be thrown in the trash as a result of this.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
I am never getting aboard one of these fucking things.

And if this is Boeings attitude I think I am just going to go with Airbus from now on.