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Eggiem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,775
Any officer of the Wehrmatch was a Nazi, because in order to advance socially and professionally in the totalitarian Nazi Germany... You had to be a convinced Nazi.

So, nah, fam. Nazi officers were Nazis, and it has to be clear. The officers in the Valkyrie operation? Yeah, those were Nazis. They wanted to kill Hitler to stop the war and have their own Nazi country.
Read that for example.
You are just wrong and forgot that many Wehrmacht officers joined the German army before anyone even knew who Hitler was. Some of them joined the army before or after WW1. Some of them changed when they saw war crimes or never sympathised with nazism. Most of them didn't even know what the new Germany after Hitler should look like. They wanted to establish a military government for a short period of time to make sure everyone in the Wehrmacht surrenders.
Not every Wehrmacht soldier or officer was a nazi (some of them were socialists or communists for example). So by saying every Wehrmacht officer was a nazi you also denounce some of the heroes of this time.
 
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jerfdr

Member
Dec 14, 2017
702
The video hand-waves (quite condescendingly I might add) that not all German Soldier's were Nazi's and further asserts that unless a box comes up and informs you that you were pressed into service against your will, you're a propagator of the Third Reich and subscribe to their ideology. Does that mean when I play as an American solider in a modern game I am a supporter of their long history of Manifest Destiny, or that I'm okay with drone-strikes against unnamed civilians? If I play a British Soldier in WW2, does that mean I am a supporter the slaughter of people in India?

You hand-wave (quite condescendingly I might add) the fact that the percentage of ordinary Wehrmacht soldiers who commited horrible atrocities during the war (mostly on the Eastern front), like burning populations of entire villages alive, mass raping, etc, was much much higher than that of every other army in that war, except for the Japanese one.
 

Kemono

▲ Legend ▲
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,669
Why would I provide any arguments for someone who unironically thinks that someone in the US army will do something good? Just live in one of those countries they made an impact on and tell me you'll give them a chance, like come the fuck on.

What about Germany or Japan?

The US made a huge impact on those two countries and they changed for the better. Extremely so.
 
Jan 11, 2019
601
Personally I always thought that Siege is Rainbow's field training program to test out new recruits+new technology, which explains why for some reason the setting keeps changing every season
In siege, you can even shoot your sister as the other sister. She then comments "I was always better than you Ela" or something and the lore mentions them having a sibling rivalry, but not a deadly one. I too always thought the shootouts are just scenario practice. It also doesn't make sense that an active operative would hold hostages like that.
 

Deleted member 50949

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Dec 16, 2018
489
What about Germany or Japan?

The US made a huge impact on those two countries and they changed for the better. Extremely so.
Western Germany was only part of the Marshall plan to help the fight against communism and Soviet Union. I don't know much about post WW2 Japan and what they did. If they did another reparations like the Marshall plan and didn't fuck up so many countries, then maybe many people wouldn't be as hostile to the US
 

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,961
Spain
I am inclined to agree with this video, even if some examples were reaching. I definitely need to hear more opinions about it and inform myself in and outside this forum before voicing my full opinion, though. Very tricky topic.

I do think people always take VERY PERSONALLY these claims. I know there is the usual dumbass that says playing Counterstrike will 100% of the time make you a terrorist or violent games will possitively make you more violent but this is not what most are arguing about.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,016
They make a great point in "Nobody should have to put on the costume of an ideology they find abhorrent" but I find it a bit strange that their solution isn't to stop assigning people to real life or historical armed forces. They used the British army as a counter point of something acceptable to be assigned to which must be very interesting for a Northern Irish player who lost family members to UDF raids.

This point I think is more the one to stop and think on. While obviously whataboutism doesn't always come from a genuine place, in this case, asking 'What about X?' when it comes to the sort of things we normalise in this medium does expose a genuine problem in the video's presentation and presumptions. Like, yes, the normalisation of the US military - any military, really - as an automatically 'good' force is an issue that one has to consider if you're going to discuss how one ideological faction in particular is also normalised.

And like, it's okay to talk about and consider how this media may influence us. No, it doesn't 1:1 make us believe or accept things, but the basic notion that what we consume culturally affects how people think things work is a well established principle. One of the chief reasons people think torture works is because fiction that uses it by and large depicts it as working (to avoid the ethical consequences for characters using it). And it may not have affected us specifically in a given way, but that doesn't mean everybody who engages with such media will realise better of it. In much the same way EC didn't appear to realise the British Army isn't an entirely clean alternative because of biases that have formed to influence their understanding of it.
 

Andrew-Ryan

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
645
It shows we woke up too late to stop the initial wave of normalization and the rise of the alt-right. But I'm glad people are starting to take a strong stance against fascism (finally...?).
I can see a lot of non-alt-right people having issues with a video like this since videos like this seem to propagate the idea that people are too stupid, too easily influenced to know the difference between a video game and real morality and effectively need censorship to police that for them. And when they do that they open up a whole can of worms to other comparable examples that they haven't addressed or have deemed acceptable due to their own internal bias. Millions upon millions of people have been playing these types of shooters for decades, it's hardly had the normalising impact the video creator talks about.
 

Legacy

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,704
I wouldn't say it's normalising, well not for me anyway. I don't care what I'm on in a world war game or whatever, I'm just trying to win.
 

Sandersson

Banned
Feb 5, 2018
2,535
What about Germany or Japan?

The US made a huge impact on those two countries and they changed for the better. Extremely so.
I think this is sailing dangerously close to Dinesh's "black people can now enjoy life in USA instead of living in Africa because of slavery" argument.
In siege, you can even shoot your sister as the other sister. She then comments "I was always better than you Ela" or something and the lore mentions them having a sibling rivalry, but not a deadly one. I too always thought the shootouts are just scenario practice. It also doesn't make sense that an active operative would hold hostages like that.
Im pretty sure according to the actual lore, operators are not killing each other, they are in VR or some crap.
 

KORNdog

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
8,001
this argument is a reach

real question is why people still make ww2 fps games. such a boring and played out setting

id actually say WW2 is comparatively fresh of a setting these days. because of the industry's obsession with chasing trends it's now sci-fi and modern warfare that feels painfully played out...it'll all cycle around again i imagine though.

as for the point at hand...i'm not entirely sure there is one. the only games that put you in a position to "normalise" nazis is MP WW2 shooters...and even then it's a costume change to differentiate teams and nothing more. no different to being red or blue in halo. you're not fighting for clearly defined nazi idiologies in COD, they're not even discussed within the context of a MP match... you're just shooting dudes...now, if there was for whatever reason a surge in games that put you in the shoes of a nazi, doing nazi things and promoting those ideologies in some sort of single player experience...yeah, that's a problem.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,571
Reverence for history is one thing. Being held hostage by it is a disgrace.
Playing MP games with historic settings isn't normalising anything. Just as violent games aren't normalising violent behaviour. This slippery slope argument is dishonest at best and is usually employed by conservative fuckers that want to score easy "won't somebody think of the children" points.
Or alternatively bemoan the degeneration of moral values.

Just like with their defense of loot boxes I think EC is way off the mark here.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
I can see a lot of non-alt-right people having issues with a video like this since videos like this seem to propagate the idea that people are too stupid, too easily influenced to know the difference between a video game and real morality and effectively need censorship to police that for them. And when they do that they open up a whole can of worms to other comparable examples that they haven't addressed or have deemed acceptable due to their own internal bias. Millions upon millions of people have been playing these types of shooters for decades, it's hardly had the normalising impact the video creator talks about.
Is that so? I would argue otherwise. Most people are significantly dumber than they give themselves credit for and that is precisely why things like marketing work in the first place.
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
I think that instead of making a WWII game where you don't play as Nazis, that maybe it'd be better to not have a WWII game? Because the fact of the matter is that if you're having a game where there is a mode for two opposing forces, both played by humans, that it's very likely going to be the Axis powers against the Allies.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,271
This idea that you're "forced" to play a Nazi is kind of absurd. The player made that choice when they decided to play a multiplayer game that's about allies vs nazis

You hand-wave (quite condescendingly I might add) the fact that the percentage of ordinary Wehrmacht soldiers who commited horrible atrocities during the war (mostly on the Eastern front), like burning populations of entire villages alive, mass raping, etc, was much much higher than that of every other army in that war, except for the Japanese one.
I believe the atrocities committed by the soviet army are actually quite comparable. Eastern Europe literally went through hell.
 
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Skyball Paint

Member
Nov 12, 2017
1,667
I think that instead of making a WWII game where you don't play as Nazis, that maybe it'd be better to not have a WWII game? Because the fact of the matter is that if you're having a game where there is a mode for two opposing forces, both played by humans, that it's very likely going to be the Axis powers against the Allies.

If the alternative is being talked down to by west coast devs who think I'm a corn-fed moron, I agree that it'd be better if they didn't make a WW2 game.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
I definitely think the "Killing nazis" meme took over too much with the Wolfenstein sequel. Their CEO attending E3 and dead-faced going "Har har... killing more nazis!" is just like... get out. What was interesting about the first game was the whole post-WW2 scenario and then you had these nazi enemies you kill along the way but it was all done in a campy sort of serious tone that emphasized the weight of the implications. Now it's all "LOL, our game has NAZIs and you can shoot them! Remember the NAZIs guys!"
 

Ashlette

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,254
EC bombed on this one.

Firstly, their video front loads everything which makes it unpalatable to its audience, namely the people who mindlessly absorb fascist ideas passively via gaming.

It also fails to mention the "alt-right" or their tactics. Why did they leave that hate group out of the video? Their manipulative schemes have already been exposed for others to analyze. But this video doesn't even do that.

One of their schemes is to hand-wave the space between memes and hate as meaningless conjecture. Another is stochastic terrorism, which is spreading a plethora of hateful and dehumanizing "jokes" in the hopes that someone needing self-purpose will absorb it and eventually commit targeted acts of violence. (no this isn't a theory, the christchurch shooter is an example)

Lastly, it weakened itself by focusing only on nazi roleplaying in video games. Not much has been found between the link between that and becoming an actual fascist. So even if they wanted to focus on the link, they wouldn't be able to do so.

EC should have focused on the link between memes and actual hate. YouTubers like Shaun and Contrapoints spent hundreds of hours making videos that do just that. And they could have amplified those fleshed out videos. But nope, they had to start from a beginner's point of view; claim a link exists and that's it. And on a barely researched link at that.

Sadly I think its watchers will take it the wrong way and reinforce the alt-right notion that a link between racist pepe memes and the charlottesville murder is preposterous. And I'm not conjecturing either, since I saw this post in this thread:
One time I played a video game and my team mates had the grey uniforms on instead of the tan ones. Next thing I knew, I was goosestepping down to the tattoo parlor to put 88 on my forehead.

If anyone wants to see an actual good video on what I'm talking about, watch this one by NonCompete:

 
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Kemono

▲ Legend ▲
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,669
I think this is sailing dangerously close to Dinesh's "black people can now enjoy life in USA instead of living in Africa because of slavery" argument.

As a german living in germany (born in West-Berlin) i'm very thankful for the help the US gave us for decades. And especially a a german i can look over to the east of our country and be even more thankful that they helped us dodging the soviet bullet. I'm sure japanese people are also rather thankful for being defeated by the US and not the Soviet Union.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,595
Man, this thread...

Anyway, I agree and disagree at the same time with the video. For one, I don't think anyone is 'accidentally' playing a Nazi or terrorist in a game. Most of those games people can pick side, if I play Hearts of Iron or Company of Heroes and play as a fascist faction, it's because I chose to do so and the setting already limits the developers in which sides to pick. If your game is a WW2 game, you can't really say "Well, but it's the American army vs. the British, because we don't want people to play Nazi's".

I also don't think that featuring (playable) fascist ideologies in a game is necessarily normalizing or glorifying those ideologies, it's something companies need to debate internally when producing games like that.

Hearts of Iron IV for instance made me feel uncomfortable with how easily it is to choose as a player to go fascist, because they get immense early-game gameplay boosts in comparison to the other ideologies, especially before all the DLCs (earlier bigger armies, option to declare war early, etc.). But I know for a fact that Paradox did debate all those things internally and you need to be able to play the more 'problematic' ideologies in the game since they make alternate history strategy games where you can play any country and any ideology on the map. They did leave some things out of the game to avoid attracting too much of the wrong crowd to the game (there's no genocide button).

It's the same with Europa Universalis IV and Victoria II, where they had to make the decision on how to portray something as horrible as Western colonisation and imperialism and turn it into a gameplay mechanic. One example from EU4 is how in early versions of the game you could change the culture of a province, this led to jokes about people 'erasing' certain cultures from the game. So they altered the mechanic so that you can always return a province to their original culture, making it clear that you're not actually ethnically cleansing the world.

Another example is how in Crusader Kings II they didn't introduce any Jewish characters for a long time out of fear that some people would buy the game just to kill all the Jewish characters.

That said, I do agree with the gist that some games portray problematic political viewpoints, but this is not only on the extreme right (and terrorist) side of things. I firly believe that most war shooters (especially in the past) are morally problematic as most of those games feature your character as a patriotic American or British soldier mowing down tons of vaguely defined, but often ethnic or Russian villains and celebrating you for it. That to me is far more of a problem than whether or not you can play the 'bad guys'.

What about Germany or Japan?

The US made a huge impact on those two countries and they changed for the better. Extremely so.
Yes, it's perfectly fine the USA totally wrecked those countries, because they made a recovery! /s

I mean, it's even debatable how much of a hand the USA really had in the recovery of those countries (I know the actual impact of the Marshall Plan is highly debated, arguing that most of those countries were already recovering pre-US intervention) and it's not like the USA helped those countries recover because they felt bad for what they did. It was to stop those damned commies from taking our freedom!

The US army is not the good guy and has never been the good guy.

EDIT: Didn't see your response one post up yet when I typed this. While I agree with you that Western Europe would've been far worse if we had fallen into the hands of the Soviets vs. the Americans, but whether we (and this includes West Germany) actually needed the Americans and the reasons they had for helping us are highly debatable.
 
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Manbig

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,305
Didn't that James guy on Extra Credits get some serious accusations thrown his way by a woman that worked there a while back?

Didn't that lead to some of the crew leaving Extra Credits, which turned it into shit?

Kinda surprised to see it linked in here.
 

Ashlette

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,254
Didn't that James guy on Extra Credits get some serious accusations thrown his way by a woman that worked there a while back?

Didn't that lead to some of the crew leaving Extra Credits, which turned it into shit?

Kinda surprised to see it linked in here.

Yeah, he had a tendency to make caustic, out of place jokes that screamed projection. IIRC, he berated WoW players in one of the videos he narrated for no reason at all. And he would plug his disdain for Sonic the Hedgehog at any possible opportunity. He was just bizarre.

Oh and I almost forgot his attempt at forming an objective opinion. Namely, he hired a bunch of VFX artists to argue that the Sonic Boom Amy was objectively bad and that anyone who liked that design was wrong.
 

BeaconofTruth

Member
Dec 30, 2017
3,417
While I can appreciate what they're trying to do with this video, and I support the idea of stomping out extremist ideologies, I have several issues with the way this video presents the problem, both in that I disagree with several aspects of it and several of the solutions presented in the video are just....well they're bad solutions.

First and foremost, I find it disingenuous to assert that randomly being assigned to wear either the white or black hat in a multiplayer match makes you "embody" that character. I am no more a Nazi playing a match of BFV than I am an Emperor when I play a match of Civilization. People (for the most part) can tell games from reality and I find the idea that a person playing as an unnamed German soldier in a multiplayer match will adopt Nazi idealism to be tenuous at best.

The video hand-waves (quite condescendingly I might add) that not all German Soldier's were Nazi's and further asserts that unless a box comes up and informs you that you were pressed into service against your will, you're a propagator of the Third Reich and subscribe to their ideology. Does that mean when I play as an American solider in a modern game I am a supporter of their long history of Manifest Destiny, or that I'm okay with drone-strikes against unnamed civilians? If I play a British Soldier in WW2, does that mean I am a supporter the slaughter of people in India?

While I agree that historical accuracy often runs counter to artistic liberties, I don't think that allowing a player to use an STG-44 in a multiplayer match set in a conflict that took place in 1942 is on par with completely removing the opposing force for that battle from the equation. A game can still be "historical" without being a 1/1 simulation of what warfare is actually like.

Furthermore, their ways of "fixing" this problem range from asinine to downright idiotic. Did they seriously suggest that in a situation where people are forced to consciously choose which faction to fight for people who chose the less popular faction (i.e. the bad faction) should be subjected to artificially extended matchmaking times?
That and the assets were already there for nazis in the game, stands to reason it was a simple ass reuse for multiplayer purposes, because you need to make clear distinctions with the two opposing teams, and Nazi attire and such has always had a distinct look to it in games. It's why you see it in some scifi games as well like Killzone, even if the Helghan are already decked out gray as shit. It further helps differentiate them.

Multiplayer is such a different beast, that one should be able to grasp the difference. I don't exactly remember the mp game that stopped the match to tell me how good the axis power were really, so the whole normalizing thing is turning a total non-issue into a bigger deal than it is.

It's certainly a damning offense that's been done in single player, but that's not necessarily going to be the case with team deathmatch or capture the flag.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
To be fair in Siege it's kinda stupid to see FBI agents fighting against FBI agents
Yeah. You clearly see, even right in the intro after starting the game, that the game's concept was supposed to be a completely different one.

I kinda might don't get the video's premise though, but I disagree. In a war situation there's indeed no difference between a German/Nazi soldier and a British soldier. On an abstract level of course you fight for an ideology, but in the multiplayer situations depicted in games like Battlefield and CoD, it's only about surving/not dying or killing, there is no difference on what side you are. The only difference is the skin of your uniform and the weapons you have at your disposal. The reasons why they fight differ from general's table point of view, but on the lowest level, those people who gets shredded to pieces, it is all the same; it's brutal, horrifying and absolutely traumatic for any individual taking part in any kind of way.

And in regards of playing terrorists, the video's argument is kind of absurd, too. Counter strike, a game where terrorists can win, don't tell you playing an IS terrorist and are about to bomb innocent people. For all Counter Strike depicts is that you want to bomb something, an inanimate object. And guess what, terrorists aren't the only ones, despite the game being structured that way, who bomb things. I don't how many structures and even civilians the US government has killed and also bombed and they are terrorists in some eyes as well for sure; someone's terrorist is someone else's freedom fighter. Now there groups generally accepted as outright terrorists because of their methods, such as those driving into Christmas markets. But Counter Strike doesn't imply such things even in the slightest way; you wear a mask with some character models (same es counter terrorists) and try to make an object explode. I'm not familiar with games though where you indeed play as terrorists and kill innocent people – this might be judged differently from the example of CS. But even in GTA you can kind of play as a terrorist and go full rampage and kill everything "just for the lolz". Which circles back to question if such games in general are problematic.

In general his approach seems to be like: color them all differently but in made up colors with no meaning and let them then kill each other or do a training exercise. This is kind of looking away from the problem, like let's forbid something, make it disappear on a surface level and it surely will go away. Of course there's a differences and increments between trivialize actions by bad people and not showing them. But ideology, that surely can prosper through games, music, peer groups and such, is usually more rooted in other problematic areas like education, family, friends, basically everything that happens before "video games".

The historical argument is also one-sided because it seems like you either make a game historical or fun to play. You can have a somewhat historical game without sacrificing (too much) of the gameplay, like you can have a somewhat realistic shooter like Rainbow Six opposed to Fortnite. Rainbow Six is, compared to many other shooters, quite realistic, take Raven Shield for example; but having the option to replay a mission, for example, that is obviously totally unrealistic (because you don't have that in real life) doesn't make it an unrealistic game. Yet having no differences in the weapon arsenal and man power in a historical game somehow makes it non-historical? Seems like double standards just to prove your point. Of course Axis and Allies are equal because you want to make your game fun to play. That doesn't mean it's not historical and thus doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't use historical proven facts (like German uniforms wore that cross).
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,016
Didn't that James guy on Extra Credits get some serious accusations thrown his way by a woman that worked there a while back?

Didn't that lead to some of the crew leaving Extra Credits, which turned it into shit?

Kinda surprised to see it linked in here.

...Oh yeah. Technically off topic, but yeah, worth reading the thread from the second page. Forgot about it because of being so focused on the topic at hand.
 

Sandersson

Banned
Feb 5, 2018
2,535
As a german living in germany (born in West-Berlin) i'm very thankful for the help the US gave us for decades. And especially a a german i can look over to the east of our country and be even more thankful that they helped us dodging the soviet bullet. I'm sure japanese people are also rather thankful for being defeated by the US and not the Soviet Union.
Yeah so you are making the same exact argument then. Because Japan is a great country now, nuking a shit ton civilians was fine because of some hypothetical alternative communist Japan.

You can excuse anything with this..
 

Andrew-Ryan

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
645
Is that so? I would argue otherwise. Most people are significantly dumber than they give themselves credit for and that is precisely why things like marketing work in the first place.
Well you're wrong and this whole "I'm the smartest person in the room shtick" when they call "everyone" else dumb but themselves is odd. Do you interact with everyone that you meet with that mentality?

People don't have to be rocket scientists or experts in human psychology to differentiate between a form of entertainment (books, films, games etc..) and reality. The VAST majority of humans have being doing it for thousands of years without issues.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
EC bombed on this one.

Firstly, their video front loads everything which makes it unpalatable to its audience, namely the people who mindlessly absorb fascist ideas passively via gaming.

It also fails to mention the "alt-right" or their tactics. Why did they leave that hate group out of the video? Their manipulative schemes have already been exposed for others to analyze. But this video doesn't even do that.


This is extra credits. They frame all their subjects in the lens of this is what game developers do and what aspiring game developers should consider.

Invoking the names of groups like the alt-right or ACLU is out of context. Your other points I deleted out are fine but this one isn't.
 

Metal B

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,396
Well, it can and it can't. But you have better chance, then trying to influence some authorization government's army.
I'm not the guy who got defensive when I said why should we even play a US army man in a video game where they have awful history behind them, then goes on saying they're a democracy or have morals where they're anything but those.
I say, that the US Army can only be measured, by the people in charge. Some times those people try to accomplish something positive and sometimes not. The US Army was the worst under terrible leaders. That's why i say, that any Army is the tool of the people in charge.
You could create a game, where the leader is a fictional president, who actually wants to help people. Or a game, where the US Army is lead by a terrible president. There is a lot of wiggle room, what you can do with am Army. But you can't do that with Nazi.
You'd be surprised where there is no accountability involved and all morals are thrown out the door
I don't question it, but if you have people in charge, who allow such actions, it gets more width spread.
Yeah so you are making the same exact argument then. Because Japan is a great country now, nuking a shit ton civilians was fine because of some hypothetical alternative communist Japan.

You can excuse anything with this..
As bad as the Atom Bomb is, it properly saved more lives, then it took. The Japanese government was willing to go full out with the war, no matter the costs. Th Atom Bomb broke that will. It's the big moral question, to kill a few directly to save millions in the long run ...
 
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Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,961
Spain
These blanket statements are very close-minded. And you are doomed to fall into double standards following this reasoning whatever side you are on. Certain media influencing our lifes in very direct ways cannot be disputed.

There is a lot to say and discuss in the middle ground between "playing as a Nazi will literally make you a Nazi" and "videogames cannot influence you in this way whatsoever".

I mean, I am all for defending artistic integrity in most cases and I know people exxagerate about this type of stuff constantly. But there is none of that in the main example given by the video. This is just a skin, as far I am aware of. There are still Holocaust victims alive and I don't know what do we gain from these skins being the game, honestly.

I do admit war games based in real events are inherently skeevy to me. At least the ones I see in the general market.
 

Deleted member 42472

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 21, 2018
729
Any officer of the Wehrmatch was a Nazi, because in order to advance socially and professionally in the totalitarian Nazi Germany... You had to be a convinced Nazi.

So, nah, fam. Nazi officers were Nazis, and it has to be clear. The officers in the Valkyrie operation? Yeah, those were Nazis. They wanted to kill Hitler to stop the war and have their own Nazi country.
I would be interested to know how far down that went with respect to junior officers

But there were a crapton of enlisted men who were very much "german but not nazis".

So, fam, if you want to make the argument that being German in Company of Heroes or Men of War means you are playing a Nazi, go for it. But for the games people other than me play (CoD, Battlefield, uhm Medal of Honor?) there are plenty of ways to reasonably claim that the entity completely lacking any personality that you are playing is just a German soldier
 

Ashlette

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,254
This is extra credits. They frame all their subjects in the lens of this is what game developers do and what aspiring game developers should consider.

Invoking the names of groups like the alt-right or ACLU is out of context. Your other points I deleted out are fine but this one isn't.

I dunno about that. The "alt-right" recruit gamers to their cause, so any anti-fascist piece about nazis and gaming should at least expose them under a negative light. Anyone can be affected by them, including aspiring game developers. In fact, the mordhau devs, which is a young studio of 11 people, are spreading "alt-right" ideas by claiming that "kniggas" isn't racist. That is something that any aspiring game dev should never do.
 
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Nov 1, 2017
1,365
Jesus. Fucking. Christ. I don't even play WW2 style multiplayer games but I know if i did I sure as shit wouldn't be sitting there clutching my pearls going "Oh no! This game has forced me to play as a Nazi! I DIDN'T CHOOSE THIS!" and I also wouldn't be taking it as some sort of "normalisation" of Nazi history and their various atrocities. Just like if i am playing Gears of War I'm not sitting there thinking "Oh, chainsawing someone in half is totally normal because I just did it 12 times in this match. Welp, better go chainsaw someone". Nazi's vs Allies in a multiplayer WW2 themed shooter or whatever is just a different way of saying Red vs Blue. The gameplay is the same, you both have the same objectives, wait, why am i trying to argue this? It's fucking insane logic and a reach of gargantuan proportions to make some stupid video about how randomly being put on the terrorists team in Counterstrike is somehow harmful to anyone with even the lightest grip on reality.
 

Klaphat

Banned
Dec 18, 2017
751
Which is why you don't need historically accurate teams in a multiplayer context because it's a fictional match in a game.

You don't need it, but you also don't need to stop developers who wants to make their game have nazis in it. Lol at people gatekeeping that. Sometimes a skin is just a skin and that's okay because people understand that it's just to have two seperate teams.

It's the same in Counterstrike. One team plays as the terrorists and they need to plant a bomb. It doesn't mean anything deeper than it being about two seperate teams. People know it's just a game...
 

7thFloor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,635
U.S.
Jesus. Fucking. Christ. I don't even play WW2 style multiplayer games but I know if i did I sure as shit wouldn't be sitting there clutching my pearls going "Oh no! This game has forced me to play as a Nazi! I DIDN'T CHOOSE THIS!" and I also wouldn't be taking it as some sort of "normalisation" of Nazi history and their various atrocities. Just like if i am playing Gears of War I'm not sitting there thinking "Oh, chainsawing someone in half is totally normal because I just did it 12 times in this match. Welp, better go chainsaw someone". Nazi's vs Allies in a multiplayer WW2 themed shooter or whatever is just a different way of saying Red vs Blue. The gameplay is the same, you both have the same objectives, wait, why am i trying to argue this? It's fucking insane logic and a reach of gargantuan proportions to make some stupid video about how randomly being put on the terrorists team in Counterstrike is somehow harmful to anyone with even the lightest grip on reality.
Exactly, it's a stupid premise
 

CampFreddie

A King's Landing
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,954
This is getting stupid. I normally like EC's videos, but this is way off.
It's like getting annoyed at my children playing cops'n'robbers tag, because they are trivialising the real and serious life-ruining consequences of violent crime, and/or the role of the police, by reducing them to two teams in a game played for fun.

I think you have to trust players to understand that nazis and terrorists are bad, and that the WW2 setting is simply a backdrop for a game, and that for a simple team shooter game it is necessary that both sides are evenly balanced. If they can't understand that, or start thinking that the Nazi's must be cool because the MP41 has a better TTK than the Sten gun, then it's not really the game that is the problem.

Would they argue that Das Boot normalises the nazis too? Or any other media in which German WW2 soldiers are portrayed without an background primer on why the Nazis were actually bad and that we should really be glad when the U-Boat captain dies at the end.

And you choose to play as a nazi when you buy a game that is clearly advertised as a multiplayer WW2 shooter. If playing as Nazis or British soldiers is something you don't want to do, then it's quite clear you should stay away from the game. It's not like they started dropping Nazi and Daesh skins into Splatoon or Overwatch where people might not expect them.

And I say all this as someone who generally dislikes WW2 multiplayer shooters and wishes there was a good singleplayer WW2 game that really examined the politics of the period.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
Well you're wrong and this whole "I'm the smartest person in the room shtick" when they call "everyone" else dumb but themselves is odd. Do you interact with everyone that you meet with that mentality?

People don't have to be rocket scientists or experts in human psychology to differentiate between a form of entertainment (books, films, games etc..) and reality. The VAST majority of humans have being doing it for thousands of years without issues.
Where did I call myself smart? I'm as dumb as everyone else. My point is that people need to learn self-reflection rather than saying "oh it's just entertainment". What do you mean "without issues"? There are plenty of issues in society that are clearly reflected and reinforced by works of fiction.

Being susceptible to marketing has nothing to do with intelligence or lack thereof.

Which is kind of my point.

Let me put this another way; the only reason to assume that one is immune to media influence is because of arrogance and/or ignorance. Anyone spending even a modicum of thought on this will quickly find that everything in your vicinity influences you, often times significantly more than one would expect.
 

Clessidor

Member
Oct 30, 2017
260
These blanket statements are very close-minded. And you are doomed to fall into double standards following this reasoning whatever side you are on. Certain media influencing our lifes in very direct ways cannot be disputed.

There is a lot to say and discuss in the middle ground between "playing as a Nazi will literally make you a Nazi" and "videogames cannot influence you in this way whatsoever".
That's quite true. Problem is that how the entire discussion started with EC's video which doesn't get it point cleary. The "playing as terrorist" argument e.g. is a little bit difficult. In a multiplayer game one side can be playable but can be represented as evil. So it's society influence isn't going necessarly to normalize it. It might even fest a negative image. To give you an example are games like Depths e.g. which makes you play as a shark, but basicly presents it as negative as other media did in the past.
I personally always considered CS beeing a game which presents the Terrorist side actually quite clearly as rather negative than normal. You might play as them, but you don't consider them necessarly as positive.
I would even argue that multiplayer FPS shooters in general like a lot of media in the past normalized Islamophobia that way. Something EC's isn't talking about, because they focus on the "You play XY, so you get normalized to be XY" angle, which in itself is a halftruth. The way it's represented matter and it defines how we might see it after consuming the media or what imaginery it places in us.
Now do WWII multiplayer shooters normalize Nazis, because they present their soldiers heavily disconnected from them and their ideology? It's worth to ask that question. Especially with the huge amount of "Wehrmacht" and "Nazi" memes out there e.g. But I personally think the answer is "no", because there is a link missing and kinda the whole game is looked at in isolation even though other media and environment plays a role here as well.
 

Andrew-Ryan

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
645
Where did I call myself smart? I'm as dumb as everyone else. My point is that people need to learn self-reflection rather than saying "oh it's just entertainment".
Are you capable of playing a video game, reading a book, watching a film etc.. with a fictional character that is representative of an ideology that is reprehensible without being brainwashed into being empathetic/accepting of that character? Yes? Then why would you think the majority of people can't do the same and instead need these mediums censored for their tiny brains?

What do you mean "without issues"? There are plenty of issues in society that are clearly reflected and reinforced by works of fiction.
Of course society isn't perfect, it never will be. But as humans we've chugged along pretty fine from cave man days, through to ancient times, the middle ages etc... and now our modern society. This is THE best period of human history and I don't know about you but society isn't really on the brink of collapse or anything like that with millions of gamers mimicking GTA on a daily basis or the millions of COD players forming NAZI armies or the legions of Dexter fans thinking their all serial killers etc... So yeah, it's been relatively without issues. Certainly very few created by the medium of entertainment since most the the issues in society were present before such popular mediums and were actually far more prevalent.
 

sapien85

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,427
You don't need it, but you also don't need to stop developers who wants to make their game have nazis in it. Lol at people gatekeeping that. Sometimes a skin is just a skin and that's okay because people understand that it's just to have two seperate teams.

It's the same in Counterstrike. One team plays as the terrorists and they need to plant a bomb. It doesn't mean anything deeper than it being about two seperate teams. People know it's just a game...

Generic fictional terrorist is not the same as actual historical Nazi Germany. If the skin doesn't matter then why even have it?