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SixelAlexiS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,719
Italy
That we won't know until we try. If it plugs into your DualShock 4 (TRS) and works more than likely it will also work for DualSense.
Oh yes they works on DS4 but the audio quality isn't the best, I've ended using them into the synth.
At this point I will probably need to buy a small dac with 3.5 jack in and USB out, it should work in that way.

p.s. thanks to all the other responses.
 

defaltoption

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
11,482
Austin
I'm really hoping devs continue to take advantage of this throughout the gen, I really wish both Sony and MS could support both Sony's format and Dolby's format so that whichever devs wanted to use the option would be there for both. This is the type of thing a partnership is needed for.
 

ShapeGSX

Member
Nov 13, 2017
5,210
There will be support for multichannel surround systems. No way in hell there won't be.

It's just that those systems can't yet take advantage of 3D audio.

That's what I meant.

Cerny mentioned surround systems and 3D audio in his original talk. Now they aren't talking about the feature.

I am skeptical that they can make it work, there are just too many variables.

Atmos, on the other hand, supports surround systems today with 3D positional audio. Does the PS5 support Atmos?
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,860
There will be support for multichannel surround systems. No way in hell there won't be.

It's just that those systems can't yet take advantage of 3D audio.
Their implementation for living room space 3D Audio that they've implemented for headphones won't be at launch. But Surround, and all those other encoding types will be supported day 1 on compatible receivers/systems.
 

bitcloudrzr

Member
May 31, 2018
13,901
So is the dual sense going to have good quality? Can I just plug in my Sennheiser PC363D to the dual sense and get good quality audio?
You can but it should work better over usb connection, so you might as well use that if possible. I have the PC37X so I will need to use my Astro Mixamp through optical and wait for the Tempest 3D updated for HDMI speakers.
 

defaltoption

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
11,482
Austin
Just wondering why this needed to be mentioned as I thought 3D Audio would work with all games similar to other virtual surround solutions.
Has be supported by devs like how it was on ps4 with 3D audio headsets as far as I know, everything I've read about it comes across that way. Most launch games should support it but we'll see what happens.
 

canderous

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 12, 2020
8,678
I really hope PS5 allows for headphone surround output over HDMI like the xbox. It's the only way I can get the sound to my DAC/Amp (not plugging my HD650s into a controller). The blog only mentions USB or the controller jack. I guess we won't know til we get a preview of the UI and someone can go through all the settings.

edit: this option. It passes the headphone surround through HDMI, which gets passed through my TV's optical out into my DAC.
 
Nov 1, 2017
3,067
Ive heard great things about the Monolith. Monoprice also does some killer planars!

As for the AKG, the K712 are endgame material for gaming purposes. Low end is greatly improved over the K702(even the anniversary edition). Soundstage is best in class. Comfortable. Easy to drive. Also, very musical. Can't recommend them enough.

Glad to have run into another audiophile!
Same! I think there's a few of us around here. ;)

I wish more folk actually focused on audio quality in general. I find it often gets glanced over in reviews. I'm especially curious if there's any emulation involved, as poor emulation can add audio latency or even mixed incorrectly. For a very old example, the sound in the Prince of Persia PS3 trilogy was broken.

I wonder if folk will start to focus on audio again if we ever hit the point of diminishing returns in regards to visuals.
 

McFly

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,742
It's not an open standard, but it is a common accepted industry standard that manufacturers and content support. That's the key thing. I never said it was open; I said it was standard.
What atmos is doing is not all too different from PS5 Tempest. The game provides all the sound which is then passed to Dolby atmos algorithms which does the required processing. With atmos, you need licensed hardware and or software to take advantage of it. With PS5 you don't as a consumer. They are both proprietary but one does not need licensed hardware to use. Dolby atmos for games is not an industry accepted standard.
 

bboris77

Member
Sep 11, 2020
73
Same! I think there's a few of us around here. ;)

I wish more folk actually focused on audio quality in general. I find it often gets glanced over in reviews. I'm especially curious if there's any emulation involved, as poor emulation can add audio latency or even mixed incorrectly. For a very old example, the sound in the Prince of Persia PS3 trilogy was broken.

I wonder if folk will start to focus on audio again if we ever hit the point of diminishing returns in regards to visuals.
Yes, there are a few of us audio people here for sure. My endgame for gaming is the HD800S, but it really is an overkill for this purpose. The headphone that came closest to simulating speaker experience for me was the Audeze LCD2 Classic which I sold because it was too heavy, and I regret selling it.

The best all-round headphones of all time for the price are the Sennheiser HD600 - nothing comes even close. Get yourself either a JDS Atom DAC/Amp or a Schiit Modi 3/Magni 3+ and you are set for life. Schiit Hel is pretty good too but I have not tried one myself.
 

weremichael

Member
Oct 27, 2017
310
Rocky Mountains
You can but it should work better over usb connection, so you might as well use that if possible. I have the PC37X so I will need to use my Astro Mixamp through optical and wait for the Tempest 3D updated for HDMI speakers.
I emailed ASTRO and they replied that they will have a HDMI solution to allow us to use the most recent versions of the mixamp with the PS5. They gave me no timeline on that product though.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,793
What atmos is doing is not all too different from PS5 Tempest. The game provides all the sound which is then passed to Dolby atmos algorithms which does the required processing. With atmos, you need licensed hardware and or software to take advantage of it. With PS5 you don't as a consumer. They are both proprietary but one does not need licensed hardware to use. Dolby atmos for games is not an industry accepted standard.

Yes, but how will PS5's Tempest 3D audio work on a receiver though? That's the issue. How does it talk to the receiver to say send information to the height speakers? Dolby Atmos is much more of a standard for 3D audio in a home theater audio setup than anything else right now.
 

bitcloudrzr

Member
May 31, 2018
13,901
I emailed ASTRO and they replied that they will have a HDMI solution to allow us to use the most recent versions of the mixamp with the PS5. They gave me no timeline on that product though.
It will be an HDMI audio splitter, I am just waiting to see if it is HDMI 2.1 compatible. If it is not, might as well buy a cheaper 2.0 one from Amazon or wherever. If you have the newer mixamp, they will update them so you can get surround through USB and be able to take advantage of Tempest.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,734
It's not an open standard, but it is a common accepted industry standard that manufacturers and content support. That's the key thing. I never said it was open; I said it was standard.

Manufacturer support is fairly immaterial as there's no dependency here on specific hardware.

On content support, I'm sure the acquisition of Wwise will probably help in ensuring the common industry tools have easy output support for Tempest.

The console still supports normal audio stuff like Atmos, 7.1, or whatever, right?

I doubt it supports Atmos, for games anyway. More regular surround etc. quite probably/possibly, but for positional 3D audio it'll be Tempest, so starting out you'll need to use headphones for that.
 

McFly

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,742
Oh yes they works on DS4 but the audio quality isn't the best, I've ended using them into the synth.
At this point I will probably need to buy a small dac with 3.5 jack in and USB out, it should work in that way.

p.s. thanks to all the other responses.
Cheers.

Hmm you seem to have the right idea, I was considering just buying the Pulse headphone since it is pretty cheap. For majority of this gen i have mostly been using sound bars as I'm too lazy to do all the required wiring and setup for a surround system.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,793
Manufacturer support is fairly immaterial as there's no dependency here on specific hardware.

On content support, I'm sure the acquisition of Wwise will probably help in ensuring the common industry tools have easy output support for Tempest.

Without manufacturer support, how does the PS5 send a signal that the receiver will understand and be able to translate it to 2 or 4 height channels though?
 
Nov 1, 2017
3,067
Yes, there are a few of us audio people here for sure. My endgame for gaming is the HD800S, but it really is an overkill for this purpose. The headphone that came closest to simulating speaker experience for me was the Audeze LCD2 Classic which I sold because it was too heavy, and I regret selling it.

The best all-round headphones of all time for the price are the Sennheiser HD600 - nothing comes even close. Get yourself either a JDS Atom DAC/Amp or a Schiit Modi 3/Magni 3+ and you are set for life. Schiit Hel is pretty good too but I have not tried one myself.
Fantastic suggestions. I also have a pair of Sennheiser HD 6xx. It's supposed to be a rebranded HD600, but outta all of my headphones, this is probably the most disappointed I've been with a set... And everyone else that seems to have HD600s loves them, so maybe they actually changed something in the process.
 

ManOfWar

Member
Jan 6, 2020
2,465
Brazil
I wonder which one is "better"... I mean, the MSRP of the Platinums is still $50 or so more than the Pulse.

The way I understand it, the Platinuns have all the VSS hardware onboard, whereas the new Pulse 3D don't - since it offsets that processing to the PS5 itself. This is why it's cheaper.

So, in a way, the Platinuns are a better proposition, since they'll offer you VSS on the PS4 as well.
 

bitcloudrzr

Member
May 31, 2018
13,901
Hum, I might be going crazy, but I'm 100% sure that I've just heard a guy running behind me in COD MW using the VSS feature on the Sony Platinum headset. What a scam!
It was all in your head

Without manufacturer support, how does the PS5 send a signal that the receiver will understand and be able to translate it to 2 or 4 height channels though?
These questions are probably why surround speaker support is not available at launch as they need to translate Tempest data on output.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,734
Without manufacturer support, how does the PS5 send a signal that the receiver will understand and be able to translate it to 2 or 4 height channels though?

Fair, I went back to the presentation, and it handwaves over surround speaker systems as a post-virtual-surround/stereo concern, and just notes that all these different setups will need different approaches. So it may well be that for surround setups, the approach will need hardware support. However, based on the initial principle of 'great audio for all', I'd imagined they might layer Tempest on top of existing surround standards rather than requiring a new hardware standard (which could include an Atmos path I guess, but certainly also more conventional support, 5.1 etc). In the same way that in the headphone/stereo-speaker case they're working to simply piggyback on conventional hardware.

So we'll see with the surround sound speaker case, but I think layering it in as an enhancement that piggybacks on existing standards might yet be the approach.
 

bboris77

Member
Sep 11, 2020
73
Fantastic suggestions. I also have a pair of Sennheiser HD 6xx. It's supposed to be a rebranded HD600, but outta all of my headphones, this is probably the most disappointed I've been with a set... And everyone else that seems to have HD600s loves them, so maybe they actually changed something in the process.

What amplifier are you using to drive them with? They are fairly power hungry as they are high impedance. My understanding is that the HD6xx are closer to the HD650 which a bit warmer and less neutral than the HD600.
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
8,261
Has be supported by devs like how it was on ps4 with 3D audio headsets as far as I know, everything I've read about it comes across that way. Most launch games should support it but we'll see what happens.

But I believe those headsets still had virtual surround sound even if the game didn't have a profile in the app.
 

McFly

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,742
Yes, but how will PS5's Tempest 3D audio work on a receiver though? That's the issue. How does it talk to the receiver to say send information to the height speakers? Dolby Atmos is much more of a standard for 3D audio in a home theater audio setup than anything else right now.
Best of my understanding Tempest is just the hardware and algorithm that does HRTF processing, audio will be output as stereo for headphones or as regular surround LPCM.

All we know so far according to Mark Cerny

"Once we're satisfied with our solution for these two channel systems we will turn to the issue of 5.1 and 7.1 systems," adds Cerny. "For now, though the 5.1 and 7.1 channel systems get a solution that approximates what we have now on PS4, which is to say the locations of the sound objects determine to what degree their sounds come out of each speaker. Note that 5.1 and 7.1 channel support is going to have its own special issues, in my talk I mentioned that with two channel systems the left ear can hear the right speaker and vice versa - it's even more complex with six or eight channels! Also note that if a developer is interested in using the Tempest engine power to support six or eight channels, game code is aware of the speaker setup so bespoke support is quite possible."
 

weremichael

Member
Oct 27, 2017
310
Rocky Mountains
It will be an HDMI audio splitter, I am just waiting to see if it is HDMI 2.1 compatible. If it is not, might as well buy a cheaper 2.0 one from Amazon or wherever. If you have the newer mixamp, they will update them so you can get surround through USB and be able to take advantage of Tempest.
Thank you. You're much better than Astro at sharing information with me. :)

So the audio will be delivered through usb and voice chat will also use usb? That sounds very convenient.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,793
Best of my understanding Tempest is just the hardware and algorithm that does HRTF processing, audio will be output as stereo for headphones or as regular surround LPCM.

All we know so far according to Mark Cerny

The problem is we're talking about 7.1.4 not just 7.1 now. Cerny has only briefly mentioned 5.1 and 7.1, with a slight reference to higher channels. As far as I'm aware, you can't just do LPCM for the height channels though. The only way that receivers send information to the height channels is through either Dolby Atmos or DTS:X. So this seems problematic if Sony doesn't want to support one of those formats. If they decide to support the more open DTS:X format that could be a compatibility issue too. It's not just receivers either as a lot of soundbars only support Atmos if they offer height bounce channels so those may not work at all. There's a lot of potential problems if they're not going to support the industry standard formats here.
 
Mar 5, 2020
25
Poland
There's absolutely no new actual information here whatsoever. It's been know that PS5 3D Audio would be initially available only on the headphones.

Since it seems like another way of surround virtualization, it doesn't strike me as odd that you don't need some specific 3D Audio headphones.

Sony 360 Reality audio, their proprietary answer to Atmos for music doesn't require any special headphones. What's worrying is that their 3D Audio virtualization will only be for TV speakers, or at least it's worded this way.

It is a big bummer for people with Dolby Atmos soundbars or Atmos home theater setup.

On the other hand you'll get Dolby Atmos on Xbox Series X in Cyberpunk 2077 essentially at launch...
 
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EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,678
Without manufacturer support, how does the PS5 send a signal that the receiver will understand and be able to translate it to 2 or 4 height channels though?
There isn't any support for this, this is what the newer audio formats are designed to facilitate, but there has been no word if there is hardware support for DTS-X or Dolby Atmos on PS5.

Any kind of speaker setup is going for be inferior to an HRTF system when it comes to positioning , as you aren't prohibited by the number of speakers and the position of the speakers you have in your setup.

All of that goes away with these headphone based systems
 

bitcloudrzr

Member
May 31, 2018
13,901
Thank you. You're much better than Astro at sharing information with me. :)

So the audio will be delivered through usb and voice chat will also use usb? That sounds very convenient.

If you have one of these, then you need to firmware update and both will be delivered through USB:

Astro MixAmp Pro TR - Headset Amp | Logitech G

Shop MixAmp Pro TR. Features voice balance, pro quality audio, Dolby Audio, command center software, customized stream output, TOSlink optical, and more
www.astrogaming.com

ASTRO MixAmp Pro TR for PC & Mac (Gen 3) | ASTRO Gaming

Shop the MixAmp Pro TR from ASTRO Gaming. It is compatible with PC & Mac, and is currently on sale! Shop today to take advantage of the deal.

These two will require the HDMI audio splitter:
help.astrogaming.com

MixAmp Pro

WORKS WITH: PS4, PS3, PC, Mac Manuals Download Manual Register Your Product Submit Case MixAmp Pro Firmware Release date 2/14/13 Version 3374 Release Notes Fixed bug that caused some MixA...
help.astrogaming.com

MixAmp Pro

Register Your Product Submit Case MixAmp Pro Gen 1 (2011-2012) Release date 2/14/13 Version 3374 Release Notes Fixed bug that caused some MixAmps to lose audio after updating to version 335...

Did I miss the list of compatible headsets?
All headsets/mixamps through usb wired or wireless, or the 3.5mm stereo port in the controller will get Tempest 3D at launch. My headset is connected through a mixamp that uses optical so it is not compatible.
 
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GTVision

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,068
Since the PS5 lacks an optical port I sure hope it's now possible to use 5.1 sound via USB. I just want to use a surround headphone amp to connect a wired headphone to.
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
8,261
They did not, just stereo. The only one that has what you're mentioning is the higher end ps3 headset from Sony. The ps4 versions did not.

Actually I was thinking about the Golds not Platinums, and those do have virtual surround sound for everything. Anyway in this case, I would like for there to be a solution for games that don't officially support 3D audio. For example Dolby Atmos and DTS:X for headphones can still provide a surround effect for games that don't officially support 3D spatial audio.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,793
There isn't any support for this, this is what the newer audio formats are designed to facilitate, but there has been no word if there is hardware support for DTS-X or Dolby Atmos on PS5.

Any kind of speaker setup is going for be inferior to an HRTF system when it comes to positioning , as you aren't prohibited by the number of speakers and the position of the speakers you have in your setup.

All of that goes away with these headphone based systems

Right, but my point is if Sony doesn't support Dolby Atmos or DTS:X, their Tempest audio isn't going to mean as much in someone's home theater setup because they'll lose out on the height speaker support. And really, it probably has to be Atmos to have the most compatibility because I'm pretty sure some soundbars are Atmos only.

I get what Tempest 3D audio is doing and it sounds great for headphones but not everyone games on headphones and some people want to utilize their existing home theater setup. There seems to be a lot of hand waiving of it'll just work somehow in that environment without anyone offering any insight on how that could possibly be. Sony has been very vague about people with at Atmos setup and how the PS5 is going to work with it. I get the concern with how support might with these setups since there hasn't been any clarification at all.
 

Haint

Banned
Oct 14, 2018
1,361
Yes, but how will PS5's Tempest 3D audio work on a receiver though? That's the issue. How does it talk to the receiver to say send information to the height speakers? Dolby Atmos is much more of a standard for 3D audio in a home theater audio setup than anything else right now.

Filling in the gaps from Cerneys description, it will be passed as MPCM to AVRs. It will not make use of discrete/physical height channels as MPCM doesn't support them. It seems Sony are making their own version of faux-Atmos (Virtualized Atmos) which fakes the height effects with processing trickery in the ground plane speakers. That's assuming they ever get it working, Cerney cast some doubt on it even happening at all. Now that 2.0 systems are delayed indeterminately past launch, they're clearly having problems. Surround systems were always a far future back burner feature, now they may not happen at all based on this blog post not even making an off handed reference.
 
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Nostremitus

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,772
Alabama
All headsets/mixamps through USB wired or wireless, or the 3.5mm stereo port in the controller will get Tempest 3D at launch. My headset is connected through a mixamp that uses optical so it is not compatible.
They haven't said anything about UAC2, so it's not known if low latency/high bandwidth USB DACs are supported or even useable on the PS5 at all.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,678
Where can I send pictures of my ear to?
DM them to me
Right, but my point is if Sony doesn't support Dolby Atmos or DTS:X, their Tempest audio isn't going to mean as much in someone's home theater setup because they'll lose out on the height speaker support. And really, it probably has to be Atmos to have the most compatibility because I'm pretty sure some soundbars are Atmos only.

I get what Tempest 3D audio is doing and it sounds great for headphones but not everyone games on headphones and some people want to utilize their existing home theater setup. There seems to be a lot of hand waiving of it'll just work somehow in that environment without anyone offering any insight on how that could possibly be. Sony has been very vague about people with at Atmos setup and how the PS5 is going to work with it. I get the concern with how support might with these setups since there hasn't been any clarification at all.
I would writing off speakers/home theatre support at this point, although Sony paid soundbars a little lip service, the experience is going to be pretty poor compared to headphones. People can talk themselves around it, but not only do you need to account for the shape of your ear, but you also need to account for the acoustic properties of every single surface in your room.
 

McFly

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,742
The problem is we're talking about 7.1.4 not just 7.1 now. Cerny has only briefly mentioned 5.1 and 7.1, with a slight reference to higher channels. As far as I'm aware, you can't just do LPCM for the height channels though. The only way that receivers send information to the height channels is through either Dolby Atmos or DTS:X. So this seems problematic if Sony doesn't want to support one of those formats. If they decide to support the more open DTS:X format that could be a compatibility issue too. It's not just receivers either as a lot of soundbars only support Atmos if they offer height bounce channels so those may not work at all. There's a lot of potential problems if they're not going to support the industry standard formats here.
What I quoted is as far as they've been willing to share but they've been pretty clear from the start that this is an ongoing thing they will be improving on as time goes so you are putting the Cart in front of the horse on this one. Atmos for games is just as new if not much newer than Tempest which has roots from PSVR in terms game actually using it. Anything i say beyond that would just be speculation on my part.
 

RoboPlato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,805
Just get a USB DAC to use with the HD598s. None of the Sony headsets come close.
I also use HD598s and just connect to a cheap Sound Blaster G3 USB DAC on the PS4. Plenty of power for the headphones.
You can also get a cable with built in mic if you need it.
Are there any that are wireless? I don't sit near enough to my console to be able to use any DACs I've seen
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,793
What I quoted is as far as they've been willing to share but they've been pretty clear from the start that this is an ongoing thing they will be improving on as time goes so you are putting the Cart in front of the horse on this one. Atmos for games is just as new if not much newer than Tempest which has roots from PSVR in terms game actually using it. Anything i say beyond that would just be speculation on my part.

Sure it's a work in progress, but I think people who have these types of environments have a valid point to be asking how is my setup going to work that they've invested in and we're pretty much on the cusp of the launch of the system. You would think they would have these things reasonably worked out by the time the system launches or at least a better idea of what the road map is going to look like and to let people know. We know how the competition has addressed it and it's straight forward where as it could be a year or more before we see anything about height channel support on the PS5? So far I don't see how they get it to work without supporting one of the industry standard formats but I would love to be proven wrong. It would be nice to know simply if someone is trying to buy new audio equipment that they know what they should put their money in too.