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Ex Valve Employee: "Steam was killing PC gaming...Epic is fixing this for all gamers."
- Thread starter benzopil
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The EGS does jack shit for that situation. Bigger cuts go to publishers, not developers.
Yeah, he just sounds like he's raging and has very little to say that I haven't heard parroted by other Epic Advocates.
At the end of the day, I do not trust Epic because they do not have the customer's best interest in heart and seem to be trying to corner the market so they can become the new market leaders not by providing a better service but by abusing their Fornite revenue. So yeah, fuck Epic and any developer or game insider who shills for their services while completely failing to recognize any of PC gamer's concerns.
I'm really sad that Steam came along in my lifetime and RUINED pc gaming. /s
At the end of the day, I do not trust Epic because they do not have the customer's best interest in heart and seem to be trying to corner the market so they can become the new market leaders not by providing a better service but by abusing their Fornite revenue. So yeah, fuck Epic and any developer or game insider who shills for their services while completely failing to recognize any of PC gamer's concerns.
I'm really sad that Steam came along in my lifetime and RUINED pc gaming. /s
Not every single dev obviously, since Steam at present is still the far larger and more popular platform. Epic is setting up exclusives because they need gamers and consumers to slowly migrate to Epic as their defacto store. Once user numbers between these platforms get closer to balancing out, then yes, I do expect more studios to prioritise Epic's store over Steam's, because ultimately they'll be making more money from every game they sell on Epic's store vs Steam.
Odd way to look at it since that means Gabe's 30% is only 70% for the people who actually made the game.
Why celebrate that of all things?
"Steam will be for indy/2nd tier/shovelware/porn, Epic and other launchers for AAA"
A sphincter says what?
A sphincter says what?
Ah yes it's stupid. Poor Sony and Microsoft they deserve their cut because they SELL hardware at a PROFIT.
So in that case, 30% is okay because magically, it represents more money.
I think that if you're a dev or publisher, you give zero fuck about that. 30% is 30%.
And considering how far less justified that 30% is on consoles... yeah, good luck with that.
Epic got lucky with a boat load of cash and they're strong arming their way into a market.
Companies will push for high profit. If steam which has more features then all other competitors is charging too much then console manufactures are too. If it was unsustainable as you seem to think then every dev would release only on steam and abused the cd-key system where they can get 100% of the cut.
Most of the points are half truths at best,yet we are supposed to discuss the good points?
It's also a bit silly to point towards consoles when that platform is created and supported and maintained by the console holders. PC Gaming is a different beast entirely because anyone can walk in and reap the benefits, Steam was never going to rule the roost in perpetuity.
You can't compare consoles and PCs. Who built the PCs and invested in R&D and the hardware? Valve? Who is selling PC hardware at a loss? Valve? Who is advertising PCs? Valve? Who is making the development of PC games easier? Valve?
According to one of the devs from Campo Santo, Valve time allows people to have a healthy balance between work and social life.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/'valve-time'-allow-valve-employees-to-have-healthy-work-life-balance.96347/
Imagine if a bitter ex-developer decided to negatively comment about a topic that he never worked with during his time in the company. This is what he would be saying given what is happening in PC Gaming.
Steam made PC Gaming viable for a bunch of people, and expanded from a launcher to a platform in the meantime. Still, Rich is somewhat right. Valve is killing the old PC Gaming, where piracy was abundant, distribution was horrible and devs either abandoned PC or just treated it as a third-class platform, while Epic wants to bring all that back.
Steam made PC Gaming viable for a bunch of people, and expanded from a launcher to a platform in the meantime. Still, Rich is somewhat right. Valve is killing the old PC Gaming, where piracy was abundant, distribution was horrible and devs either abandoned PC or just treated it as a third-class platform, while Epic wants to bring all that back.
Steam was never a monopoly as a storefront, most of the games I own on Steam I purchased from other stores like GMG. They sort of had a monopoly when it came to launchers but either way it wasn't a monopoly in the way that Epic will be. From what I can tell, as a consumer, the prices of games are going to go up for me if Epic becomes a standard store.
Consoles arent sold at a cost. You also get to pay to play online.
Edit : Also Valve does a lot of investment into open source programs that help developers in PC and in VR.
Doesn't change a thing: What difference is there between paying 30% to MS/Sony/Nintendo and Valve ?
And we have many other current and past developers from Valve who praise their workspace. Go and read some of the Campo Sanot's Jane posts on twitter about working conditions there.
Yeah I'm sure exclusives will solve everything. Just look at how unified the console space is! And none of the console companies are taking 30%!
Narrator: all of them were taking 30%.
Narrator: all of them were taking 30%.
That's exactly what is supposed to happen if you go by epics sales pitch. But it hasn't yet and you probably won't see it because their messages cancel each other out.
Publishers making more off a sales doesn't mean drastic price cuts on thier games. Either you make the same an cut the retail cost or you keep the cost the same and make more. Trying to do both isn't going to make any noticeable difference either way.
When Epic allows me to purchase EGS keys on third-party storefronts (GMG/Game Billet/Fanatical/etc.) at similar discounts to those that I receive for purchasing Steam keys from those retailers, then I will know that they are "fixing" something for me.
i feel like you really need to think about what you just wrote really hard
Then how do you expect other storefronts to compete? Because they can't afford a bidding war against Epic. Unless you just want them all to die until "the numbers balance out"?
It's nice to see this as a Epic vs Steam war but that ignores the various storefronts that in no way can compete against either Epic or Steam. What Epic is doing will destroy all of them. That's what they want after all
I forgot your console was given away for free. And not sold at a profits XD
You're absolutely right in fact. I shouldn't compare Valve's cut to Console's cuts who:
-Sell hardware AT A PROFIT
-Takes over 10% of royalty fees for EVERY PHYSICAL GAMES despite them not carrying them
-Make people PAY an online paywall 60 bucks a year for P2P servers
-Takes a 30% cut for their ONLINE STOREFRONT that is far less feature rich
I'm sure Activision is relevant here. Counter example: Ubisoft is a big publisher, that has good working conditions with happy employees, and outstanding post launch support that's either cheap or free. And I can guarantee that they went with EGS for Div 2 due to 0% cut on mtx and will go to EGS in the future for their other GaaS titles.
The guy is responsible for Steam's beloved Linux push that's brought up as one of the features when talking about steam Vs EGS, I'd give him more credit about what he's saying and would expect him to know his stuff than to dismiss him.
Yeah...no.
All they've done is shit the bed and told everyone "this is good for you".
So basically...
All they've done is shit the bed and told everyone "this is good for you".
So basically...
yeah, Ive heard things both ways. It's worth noting:
1- jane started working there years after rich left
2- janes team came in with an acquisition deal that presumably offered them some autonomy, seniority, and guaranteed stability in the contract vs a regular hire, so campo santos experience isn't necessarily even at odds with richs account.
3- even if rich was wrong, or had a totally unique experience, complaints about a workplace are a valid thing that should be taken seriously instead of trying to discredit them.
And this is precisely what is not wanted. Console tactics and marketing shenanigans (aka, exclusives), can stay the hell away from PC.
Well, thing is you sell way more on consoles compared to PCs
Okay, so a few reactionary thoughts I have reading this:
01. PC Gaming was fucking saved by Valve, like the funny thing here is that Epic left PC Gaming in the early 2000s, calling all PC Gamers "a bunch of pirates", more than once even over the years. Valve talked about PC Gaming dying due to a lack of convenience for the end user, and made Steam as a storefront for ease of use and a collective place for gaming as they also had a position making games within the industry. Literally Valve single-handily changed and saved the PC Gaming space, this isn't anything anyone can deny, it's historically what happened.
02. 30% rev cut I know is debatable, but on two fronts Valve has changed it at least for bigger selling developers already (which a lot of people seem to forget, though I do have a few mixed thoughts on it), but moreso literally Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Origin, Games for Windows Live, UPlay, etc., all take a 30% cut as well, so I've never understood what the fuck Valve has done to get so much slack for this particular decision when it's literally a mostly industry-wide standard. That doesn't mean Valve can't do better, and I can agree there, but I also don't understand why this is SUCH a big point in this argument, especially when frankly against other PC storefronts Valve does actually offer by far the most for their cut.
03. PC Gaming hasn't been dying on Steam at all, it's been growing more and more each year. So that's a factually incorrect statement even just going by numbers.
04. The argument for the "little guy" comes up a lot, and as a little indie developer who's made several well received but mostly unnoticed games and loves the underground indie scene, this argument is fucking bollocks. Epic's method only attributes to "proven" devs who've already had success stories, they haven't presented supporting any new developers or people who are struggling, their system literally only works by developers that find success on other platforms so they can offer more money to those people who've already found success to get more money for their next title. There is nothing about the Epic Store thinking of the "little guy", not really. It's great for some independent devs I'm sure, but only those who've already had some success.
05. Steam's "problem" that everyone talks about is just what's going to fucking happen in the future, and everyone likes to shove the blame on Valve, but show ignorance to what the actual "problem" is. There's just too many games, and this is a natural outcome. For PC Gaming one of it's greatest strengths is that is has a library that grows and grows over time, it amasses a library of games both currently coming out and that have come out in the past, it's a collective. Because it's a collective, the number of games will steadily increase. Valve opening the floodgates, "destroying visibility", is not a problem, it's an eventuality. The problem isn't even fucking "this trash game gets onto a gaming market", the actual problem is there's too many good games for a broad range of taste. The same thing will happen eventually to any store front that amasses games over time, eventually there will be just too many to pick from. The same thing has happened with films, with novels, with art, any fucking form of media, video games aren't special here. This isn't a problem so much about more games getting onto Steam and devs getting less visibility has a lot more to do with the fucking fact they don't know how to advertise and get their own visibility, and haven't adapted with the changing market, because while Valve opened the floodgates, that's honestly fine. It maybe sped up some things, but it was already happening and we were always going to end up in this position. And it's going to eventually happen to any storefront that tries to compete here including Epic, because it's not actually a problem, it's an eventuality due to the market as a whole growing and PC Gaming amassing it's game's library over time.
I won't even touch into what I think of Epic's strategies right now, but I wanted to talk these points since I think honestly a lot of people are being willfully ignorant on so many factors here.
01. PC Gaming was fucking saved by Valve, like the funny thing here is that Epic left PC Gaming in the early 2000s, calling all PC Gamers "a bunch of pirates", more than once even over the years. Valve talked about PC Gaming dying due to a lack of convenience for the end user, and made Steam as a storefront for ease of use and a collective place for gaming as they also had a position making games within the industry. Literally Valve single-handily changed and saved the PC Gaming space, this isn't anything anyone can deny, it's historically what happened.
02. 30% rev cut I know is debatable, but on two fronts Valve has changed it at least for bigger selling developers already (which a lot of people seem to forget, though I do have a few mixed thoughts on it), but moreso literally Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Origin, Games for Windows Live, UPlay, etc., all take a 30% cut as well, so I've never understood what the fuck Valve has done to get so much slack for this particular decision when it's literally a mostly industry-wide standard. That doesn't mean Valve can't do better, and I can agree there, but I also don't understand why this is SUCH a big point in this argument, especially when frankly against other PC storefronts Valve does actually offer by far the most for their cut.
03. PC Gaming hasn't been dying on Steam at all, it's been growing more and more each year. So that's a factually incorrect statement even just going by numbers.
04. The argument for the "little guy" comes up a lot, and as a little indie developer who's made several well received but mostly unnoticed games and loves the underground indie scene, this argument is fucking bollocks. Epic's method only attributes to "proven" devs who've already had success stories, they haven't presented supporting any new developers or people who are struggling, their system literally only works by developers that find success on other platforms so they can offer more money to those people who've already found success to get more money for their next title. There is nothing about the Epic Store thinking of the "little guy", not really. It's great for some independent devs I'm sure, but only those who've already had some success.
05. Steam's "problem" that everyone talks about is just what's going to fucking happen in the future, and everyone likes to shove the blame on Valve, but show ignorance to what the actual "problem" is. There's just too many games, and this is a natural outcome. For PC Gaming one of it's greatest strengths is that is has a library that grows and grows over time, it amasses a library of games both currently coming out and that have come out in the past, it's a collective. Because it's a collective, the number of games will steadily increase. Valve opening the floodgates, "destroying visibility", is not a problem, it's an eventuality. The problem isn't even fucking "this trash game gets onto a gaming market", the actual problem is there's too many good games for a broad range of taste. The same thing will happen eventually to any store front that amasses games over time, eventually there will be just too many to pick from. The same thing has happened with films, with novels, with art, any fucking form of media, video games aren't special here. This isn't a problem so much about more games getting onto Steam and devs getting less visibility has a lot more to do with the fucking fact they don't know how to advertise and get their own visibility, and haven't adapted with the changing market, because while Valve opened the floodgates, that's honestly fine. It maybe sped up some things, but it was already happening and we were always going to end up in this position. And it's going to eventually happen to any storefront that tries to compete here including Epic, because it's not actually a problem, it's an eventuality due to the market as a whole growing and PC Gaming amassing it's game's library over time.
I won't even touch into what I think of Epic's strategies right now, but I wanted to talk these points since I think honestly a lot of people are being willfully ignorant on so many factors here.
Activision is relevant here yes. Because it's a big publisher. And big publishers are more likely to force crunching to meet schedules for investors.
So you're losing even more money on consoles then, according to your logic (+ totally depends of the game and especially for indies since Xbox and PlayStation are often the worse seller for indies).
Nothing as far as I have seen. I guess they have things like Google Analytics in webpages, if you count that as spyware lol.
There's even better tools to analyze Steam traffic than EGS. I haven't ever seen access files outside it's directories (sans, save files for games using Steam Cloud stored elsewhere.
(Nethook2 for dumping decrypted packets, NetHook2Analyzer for actual analysis)
Fairly sure retail copies are only 20% for console manufacturer + 25% shop + whatever it costs to print and distribute copies. So much less than Steam wants (which is 0% for retail copies).
Digital is 30% there too. Just like Steam.
I get that this 1% devs are getting a good deal with Epic and they're right in trying better stuff.
The thing is that Epic is not helping the industry by boosting devs already in a good situation. A good situation provided by the fame they got mostly on Steam.
I'm not against the notion of devs teaming up with Epic tbh, but the notion that this is helping the industry instead of fucking the devs that really need the help and will not get invited to the party is completely nuts.
Curation will never not be bullshit. It harms both devs and players.
I'm not saying Epic is good nor am I saying Steam is evil. Multiple people in this thread have dismissed everything said here by saying "PC gaming is fine right now, and not in trouble." And when I look at how the industry is going right now, I feel like I really disagree!
It is happening.
EA/Blizzard already have their own store. They dont sell on Steam anymore. It looks like Ubisoft is pretty happy to take Epic's deal and if they dont see it hurting their games sales significantly then you should fully expect them to move to EGS exclusively. Same for 2K. And THQ.
That leaves Bethesda. Who have their own store coming up and will either push that exclusively or happily take whatever deal they get on EGS.
What else is left on PC that is considered AAA?
Other platform holders actually hold the platforms. They are making the hardware the game is being played on.
Meanwhile Steam got a bunch of extremely profitable regions to not pirate and buy games instead.
I mean, I agree with the industry being fucked but I don't see how crunch culture in AAA gaming has anynthing to do with the topic at hand?
One you are forced to go through MS Sony Nin, the other you dont have to unless things are such that it *feels* like a monopoly and you have users crying out in pain that the game isnt coming to their client on PC when an actual competitor comes in.
What in the living hell are you talking about? What does that have to do with the topic?
I can make a game for 100 millions of dollars give it away for free and get awards if the game is great. What does that have to do with anything?
What is going on in this thread?
Once there is an accepted narrative on era and if anything comes out that contradicts that people go out of thier way to prove it wrong. Did anyone actually read what the guy wrote?
People are like he is a disgruntled employee so what he says has no merit.
Oh, so because they make consoles they sell at a PROFIT, it's okay, it's suddenly good.
The console warring here is strong.
You replied to someone saying that, according to this guy, that "The 30% cut is killing devs"
You said "Uh, it's not the same, you have to get through MS/Nintendo/Sony". So I ask again: Does it means suddenly, because they're forced, the 30% cut isn't "too much" ?
So the 30% cut is too much when a service provide a shiton of stuff but it's "fine" when a manufacturer makes a console they sell at a profit ?
According to Wikipedia Valve has 360 employees as of 2016, and Gabe has a personal fortune of $4 billion dollars
I mean, would they really go under if they budged on the 30% cut?
I get that it's industry standard, so why should they, but I mean, it's not illegal to money hat exclusives either
I think the 30% cut thing is probably being used to divert attention from the money hatting shenanigans, but in general I'm pro developers getting more of a cut, but preferably not at the expense of the customer (which is how Epic are currently operating)
I mean, would they really go under if they budged on the 30% cut?
I get that it's industry standard, so why should they, but I mean, it's not illegal to money hat exclusives either
I think the 30% cut thing is probably being used to divert attention from the money hatting shenanigans, but in general I'm pro developers getting more of a cut, but preferably not at the expense of the customer (which is how Epic are currently operating)
If you equate saving pc gaming to bringing it back to the dark ages then yeah Valve was killing it and Epic is saving it. This guy doesn't have the consumer at heart when he rants and I am glad he doesn't work at Valve anymore.
He's totally correct. Happy to continue watching more and more options for buying PC games appear every year. This will continue despite the whining, and that's a very good thing.
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