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echasketchers

Member
Jul 15, 2021
423
United States
Cal is at least sensitive and has some kind of development arc. He's not exactly Marcus Fenix or something. I think they could still make him interesting and surround him with cool supporting characters, maybe have a second protagonist you switch off with in the sequel and they have different fighting styles. Make it like a devil may cry game in that regard. There's no need to ditch Cal entirely.
 

Patitoloco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,614
User Banned (1 Month): Concern trolling in a thread regarding Black representation across a series of posts
Oh, you just think people are making it all up about how they feel. Got it.

Since everyone's lying, how do they actually feel? What do I actually think of Cal?
I never said anyone was making anything up. I said the "Cal being bad" discourse is hugely exagerated when there are a million worse protagonists, and now it's worse, because it's being used as the spear tip to argue about a potential non-white protagonist that doesn't exist.

You really should relax, lower the shield a little. Representation should come by its own virtues, not the failures of the alternative. It even diminishes the message.
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,468
User Banned (2 Weeks): Inflammatory False Equivalence Regarding Representation
White people in this thread. "B but but he's ginger!!!"

I feel like we can agree greater diversity is always welcome without taking a shit on a very under represented group that has also faced discrimination based on a very rare hair color.

Edit: I want to edit this to clarify that the level of discrimination is not in any way equivalent. I just saw where this thread was going and I don't want my comment to come across like that!
 
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Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
No one expressed confusion about why people were disappointed about Cal, the post was about why he specifically is such a lightning rod for discourse when there are a lot of other white male protags who do get criticized but not to the extent where every thread about their game is absolutely full of it. I even remember a lot of people being pretty rude about his actual features when he was revealed, not just his skin color, basically acting as if the devs had designed him to be as bland looking as possible and not, you know, modeled him after an actual human being.

Consider calling out the specific posts saying Monaghan is ugly then, rather than dredging up that issue in an unrelated thread and lamenting the game character being unfairly judged. Complaining about people voicing distaste for the character comes across as dismissive in a thread specifically about how the devs ended up defaulting to making the character a white guy for dubious "balance" reasons.

I never said anyone was making anything up. I said the "Cal being bad" discourse is hugely exagerated when there are a million worse protagonists, and now it's worse, because it's being used as the spear tip to argue about a potential non-white protagonist that doesn't exist.

You really should relax, lower the shield a little. Representation should come by its own virtues, not the failures of the alternative. It even diminishes the message.

You're saying people are exaggerating how they feel which means you think they're not being genuine, and you're saying there are worse examples in other games ...

And you're saying all this in a thread that's not about those other games. A thread where people are voicing their feelings about the charcter and the context in which they were created, which can only be construed as policing what other feel and how they rally for representation.

And then there's the tried-and-true "I support your goals, but maybe tone it down a bit" condescension—well done.
 
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PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,549
Hear me out, folks: reboot Kyle Katarn and let him be played by this guy:

Sheriff-Hassan-speaks-at-his-desk-in-his-office-in-Midnight-Mass.jpg
 

PanzerKraken

Member
Nov 1, 2017
14,985
White people in this thread. "B but but he's ginger!!!"

It was a breath of fresh air compared to the typical 30-40's gruff male with short dark hair we get in every video game. We got a younger softer looking protag, with hair rarely seen. Surprising it was considered bland when every other game has the same style of white male character and no one bats an eyelash.
 

Deleted member 14089

Oct 27, 2017
6,264
The what could've been is unfortunate in hindsight. It's a reaffirmation of the systematic biases and mentality.
 

spyroflame0487

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,079
I really like Cal. Its nice to see a ginger sometimes lmfao so let me have this one.
I thought his character arc was good, and he's not going anywhere (we just recently saw that they added his saber mold to the Batuu stuff at WDW

What I WOULD like to see is the series become an anthology, allowing Cal to become a mentor since that would be a nice little continuation of his story.
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
9,277
White people in this thread. "B but but he's ginger!!!"

yeah they pulled that one out record time lol smh

White Game Devs (and the white gaming community) are so full of shit

First, its ironic that the game got criticized for this decision pre launch with this now being news.

Second, the "balance out" excuse is high tier bullshit. A series that has starred and hosted virtually nothing but white men as leads for decades has one female lead and now its time to "balance out", lol bullshit

Third, It doesnt help when people try to obfuscate the point when we are reffering to race and gender and yall are talking about hair color all of a sudden.... its corny
 

gothmog

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,434
NY
Star Wars like to make pretty on point references (like Cal showing up elsewhere seems like a no brainer). Regardless of who, character creation seems so unlikely in the SW fiction.
I guess. Then again we are talking about a universe that has multiple masked characters, so it seems like they could have made it work.
 

Mass Effect

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
16,763
Make Cere playable in the next game to make up for it. No excuse not to.

Really, it would have made more sense for Cere to be the playable character in the first place. Her history with the inquisitors, Jaro Tapal, and wanting restoring the Jedi Order ties in much better with the story of JFO.

trilla the padawan turned inquisitor, saw gerrera, Darth Vader is voiced by a black dude (not James Earl Jones in the game). We all know Darth Vader is black tho

I thought Trilla was Indian?

No, my point was that exagerating it in an echo chamber and weaponize it to fight for representation is not the way to go.

What a garbage post. Just because people are expressing their frustration doesn't mean they're exaggerating.
 

Deleted member 2172

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,577
User Banned (Permanent): White fragility and concern trolling in a thread regarding Black representation across a series of posts, previous severe bans for concern trolling in sensitive threads and excusing bigotry
My best friend who is ginger and was incessantly bullied for being so growing up is a huge fan of Cal. I'm glad they landed on ‎Cameron Monaghan for Jedi Fallen Order and look forward to seeing where his story goes in the sequel.
 

Lausebub

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,151
I thought we heard this before. But maybe I am confusing him with anther guy protagonist.

To all the "but he is ginger" people in here, you know women and non white people can also have red hair.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,549
South Asians in video games isn't going to happen.

Trilla was South Asian. And the protagonist of Battlefront II was played by Janina Gavankar.

Or, he can get a brand new character, who isn't completely bland and uninteresting and without the baggage.

I'd love him in a Star Wars thing, though.

I love Kyle. Stupid lightsaber beard dad. You're not wrong that he isn't an extremely deep character, but that just means Rahul would have a lot of freedom to do a ton of great stuff with the character and really make it his own.
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
yeah they pulled that one out record time lol smh

White Game Devs (and the white gaming community) are so full of shit

First, its ironic that the game got criticized for this decision pre launch with this now being news.

Second, the "balance out" excuse is high tier bullshit. A series that has starred and hosted virtually nothing but white men as leads for decades has one female lead and now its time to "balance out", lol bullshit

Third, It doesnt help when people try to obfuscate the point when we are reffering to race and gender and yall are talking about hair color all of a sudden.... its corny

Hair colour, painting criticism of the character+the decisions behind their design as being an attack on the actor ... yeah, it's always some kind of goofiness when this subject comes up.
 

The Gold Hawk

Member
Jan 30, 2019
4,515
Yorkshire
"Back then, there were ten thousand Jedi protecting the galaxy. Now it's just a bunch of white boys"

I didn't dislike Cal that much, but every other character in that game is more interesting than him.

I love Kyle. Stupid lightsaber beard dad. You're not wrong that he isn't an extremely deep character, but that just means Rahul would have a lot of freedom to do a ton of great stuff with the character and really make it his own.
I would like to second this
ElSXq3LWkAUVeET.jpg

(or maybe Ezra...if he ever comes back)
 

Richietto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,964
North Carolina
I think Im losing my mind here. Are people serious about this ginger thing??? The character is still fuckin white who gives a shit about the hair color??? What???? Can black people not have red hair? If not I gotta talk to my brother about him dying his hair without telling anyone all these years.
 

Ascenion

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,081
Mecklenburg-Strelitz
How y'all gonna blame Rey? Mind you I hate Rey but her being a woman has nothing to do with that. Iden Versio was fine, Ahsoka is my fav jedi. More women leads in Star Wars is fine and needed, just don't write them how JJ Abrams or Rian Johnson would (read terribly).
 

Suede

Gotham's Finest
Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,498
Scotland
Tbf, and I know we all want to forget about Battlefront II, but the main protagonist of that games single player was...

iden-versio_945333fa.jpeg


So clearly EA can do it.
I really liked her too.

And for Fallen Order I would have loved to have played as Trilla. Respawn have been so good with Apex Legends and its diversity that it's a shame their Star Wars game ended up the way it did.
 

Micerider

Member
Nov 11, 2017
1,180
Make Cere reconnect with the Force in the sequel and make her share the spotlight with Cal as a playable character you cowards!
 

Gpsych

Member
May 20, 2019
2,890
This is actually the main reason why I didn't end up playing the game despite being a huge Star Wars fan. The MC just looked soooooo boring. Also, white Jedi...I've played that game before it feels like.
 

DoubleTake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,529
I feel like we can agree greater diversity is always welcome without taking a shit on a very under represented group that has also faced discrimination based on a very rare hair color.

It was a breath of fresh air compared to the typical 30-40's gruff male with short dark hair we get in every video game. We got a younger softer looking protag, with hair rarely seen. Surprising it was considered bland when every other game has the same style of white male character and no one bats an eyelash.

Yeah sure. He's still white.

yeah they pulled that one out record time lol smh

White Game Devs (and the white gaming community) are so full of shit

First, its ironic that the game got criticized for this decision pre launch with this now being news.

Second, the "balance out" excuse is high tier bullshit. A series that has starred and hosted virtually nothing but white men as leads for decades has one female lead and now its time to "balance out", lol bullshit

Third, It doesnt help when people try to obfuscate the point when we are reffering to race and gender and yall are talking about hair color all of a sudden.... its corny

Read through dozens of those posts before realizing it wasn't a bit.

Right? Shit is farcical. Fragile asses. Not apologizing either.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,549
I agree honestly. That plus I've got less than zero faith in Aspyr to make a good game here even with Sony money.

Oh, 100%. Turning KOTOR into some generic-ass hack and slash action RPG with extremely mashy, uncreative combat and badly designed AI companions (y'all know it's gonna happen) is gonna break my heart.

At least with a Jedi Knight reboot the combat would be easier to do well.
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
Make Cere reconnect with the Force in the sequel and make her share the spotlight with Cal as a playable character you cowards!

She already starts to do that by the end—she could've been the protagonist from the start, and the gaining of new abilities could've been framed as her reconnecting to the force bit-by-bit.

but of course they needed to balance that against Rey, so there was no other way
 

LastNac

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,193
She already starts to do that by the end—she could've been the protagonist from the start, and the gaining of new abilities could've been framed as her reconnecting to the force bit-by-bit.

but of course they needed to balance that against Rey, so there was no other way
Speaking of, the actress who plays Cere is everywhere 😅

I was playing Infinite last night and heard the Harbinger speak and I was like "wait a sec..."
 

PeskyToaster

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,312
Merrin would've been a different game. She's not a Jedi and she doesn't really do melee fighting. Like that's not a Jedi game, that's just a Nightsister game.
I'm sure if she was the main character then she would do some lightsaber fighting and go on a journey where she finds the light side and all that.

I thought Trilla was Indian?

She's played by Elizabeth Grullon, a first generation American born to Dominican parents, according to IMDB.
 

ParzivalJoker

Member
Jan 15, 2022
16
She already starts to do that by the end—she could've been the protagonist from the start, and the gaining of new abilities could've been framed as her reconnecting to the force bit-by-bit.

but of course they needed to balance that against Rey, so there was no other way



But that's exactly Cal's story arc in the game, yet you're all here calling him boring.
 

dskzero

Member
Oct 30, 2019
3,355
I haven't finished the game, but I'm honestly more concerned about him written in such a boring way.

Playing as another kind of character than Yet Another White Guy (tm) would be more interesting per se, but if said character is just as silly I would have the same exact concern. I don't know why they thought it was a good idea to have him comment on BD1 entering every chest, as well.

Also I figured he was ginger due to having that actor from Gotham, but I am not sure if that's the case.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
If nothing else I'm constantly amused by the protagonist being apparently "weird looking" to many while also being "generic and boring looking" to others.
The "he's generic" thing always confuse me because the most common mod for the game is people straight up going out of their way to make him look more like a default video game protag that can super easily fit in that one meme:
49zdcuezrif41.png

right down to voice pitching.
 

GenTask

Member
Nov 15, 2017
2,663
With the huge diversity of species in Star Wars, and even sentient Robots, I'm surprised that none of the new Star Wars game announcements have said anything about having a different kind of protag. Many of those are too early in development though, so time will tell.

Respawn
Jedi Order - Cal Kestis and Friends
FPS Game - ? Peter Hirschmann said he was inspired by "Dark Forces 1 and 2" and the team has many "defining SW game experiences" from when they were younger (Dark Forces 2 famously let you play as Mara Jade in an expansion, but the rest of the series is Kyle Katarn, this game of course could be anything from Republic Commando 2, some sort of Katarn revival, or some other setting/character entirely)
Strategy Game - ? Slim details, Bit Reactor contains former XCOM devs, the 'commander' is usually in affect the Player

Aspyr
KOTOR Remake - assuming it retains Character Creator (male or female), this is probably a given

Ubi-Soft
Open World Game - ? Guessing choose-able protags Male/Female like Assassin's Creed

Amy Hennig/Sky-Dance
Action-Adventure - ? There was some leak of some other prototype that sounded like Star Wars: Uncharted with Nathan Drake in Space

Quantic Dream
Action-Adventure-Narrative (Eclipse) - ? Unknown protag, unless one of the many characters shown in the cgi-cinematic is the main
 

The Gold Hawk

Member
Jan 30, 2019
4,515
Yorkshire
He's one of my favorite people on TV right now. I would kill to see him play Kyle. I would trade the KOTOR remake for a Jedi Knight reboot with Rahul in a fucking nanosecond.
Apart from Gears 5 I'd never really been aware of his stuff until I saw Midnight Mass and I immediately thought that he should be a huge thing.

Definitely. Whilst I don't mind something to do with KOTOR, I have way more faith in the concept of a Jedi Knight Reboot than a KOTOR remake. Perhaps it's a little unfair, but still.
 

Micerider

Member
Nov 11, 2017
1,180
She already starts to do that by the end—she could've been the protagonist from the start, and the gaining of new abilities could've been framed as her reconnecting to the force bit-by-bit.

but of course they needed to balance that against Rey, so there was no other way

Indeed, and I do think that having again a character that needs to gain her skills back would be a good pick for the second game like, start with Cere progressing through her reconnection with her powers and then, later in the game, alternate with Cal.