Well, not really, no.
More time can probably mean that the game is in development hell, or it's being developed by a skeleton crew and they just need to release something playable.
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Ex-Naughty Dog animator: "ND's games success is due in large part to Sony's deep pocket funding delays rather than skill alone"
- Thread starter Lant_War
- Start date
Well, not really, no.
More time can probably mean that the game is in development hell, or it's being developed by a skeleton crew and they just need to release something playable.
Nothing is going to change unfortunately.
Games will sell a lot, nexts ones too, people making the money over employees will be happy and nobody will care beside a minority which, as always won't have any impact on it.
But maybe am I pessimistic. I'd say realistic for now. We'll see.
Games will sell a lot, nexts ones too, people making the money over employees will be happy and nobody will care beside a minority which, as always won't have any impact on it.
But maybe am I pessimistic. I'd say realistic for now. We'll see.
The whataboutism and equating crunch to quality needs to stop. HL2 and onward had great working culture for everyone on it, and all of those titles pushed the FPS genre pretty hard and redefine the space. Now we got Half Life Alyx doing something similar.
DREAMs rewrote the rules entirely for its genre and had no crunch.
Some people want to put overtime, or some game studios do and crunch and that's fine. But the unhealthy levels people are put through is not ok, and the sustain levels at these studios. Increase your producer team size and pipeline along with your engine tools to serve your team and employees. Invest in them again first, because time and crunch may add some quality, but it's not the be all end all of product quality.
DREAMs rewrote the rules entirely for its genre and had no crunch.
Some people want to put overtime, or some game studios do and crunch and that's fine. But the unhealthy levels people are put through is not ok, and the sustain levels at these studios. Increase your producer team size and pipeline along with your engine tools to serve your team and employees. Invest in them again first, because time and crunch may add some quality, but it's not the be all end all of product quality.
Do you really expect ND to address this or they will just be like "there is the door" and leverage a threat of "we know what it means to have our name on the resume" just hire more juniors, have them have to be trained by people already burnt out forcing everyone else to pick up the pace.
I thought the story made this clear, but it's possible to have multiple conflicting feelings about your workplace. It's possible to love your coworkers and the game while simultaneously hating the crunch culture and wanting it to change before it drives everyone out. It's possible to be drinking champagne with the design team, stoked about what you've accomplished, while completely burnt out because of what you've gone through. We're talking about human emotions here, not a Mass Effect romance slider. The bootlicking here from users like James Sawyer Ford is inexplicable.
Jason, you actually think some posters argue in good faith when they bring up points already addressed in the article, and are constantly dismissive.
lol
Well, since Rockstar actually started to do something about their crunch culture after a Jason Schreir article, then it's also likely that ND will take steps to address their own as well. Again, this isn't conclusive; we may need a follow-up article some months or a year down the line to ensure that ND has actually done something about it.
A lot of people seem to like working there despite getting burnt out. Glassdoor shows that many former employees bring up crunch culture as a con but would still recommend ND to anyone else in the same field looking for a job. It's not all black and white. But we can only hope this article does to ND what Jason's previous crunch article did to Rockstar: have the studio management take steps to improve their work culture.
A member of the design team surprised his coworkers with a toast.
Not that it should matter who provided it, a toast to accomplishments nearing the completion of a game is not some taboo practice with a hidden agenda.
A little break with some cheap champagne has no real bearing on the crunch discussion.
Or developed by a big competent team with sloppy management that keep going back and forth on the game's vision.
This isn't the first article about there crunch. Here is a similiar thread from last year
Naughty Dog crunch culture examined
Someone in the Sony gaming OT suggested I make a thread about this recent article that delved into crunch culture at Naughty Dog: https://cogconnected.com/feature/naughty-dog-crunch-game-development-sony-playstation-ps4/ Here's some quotes:
www.resetera.com
Jonathan is a big reason why I pursued animation seriously, the guy is one of the most experienced and knowledgeable animators in the industry -- this notion that nobody will work with him now is absolutely hilarious.
Crunch will always be an interesting conversation in the games industry. I've worked retail and other crap jobs I hated for years, and working longer than 8 hours drove me mad, I fucking hated it.
However, with animation for example, sometimes, I gladly work longer than 8 hours. I play a role in the toxicity of crunch culture, unfortunately. It comes from a good place, though? I freaking love my job, sometimes it blows my mind that people give me money to do this. I mean, I did this shit for free/fun before I got a job in the industry, the fact that someone gives me money to essentially be a technical puppeteer? Awesome!
With that said, I actually had to have a conversation with my manager about how she needed to stop publicly praising people for staying late, and what she considered "a true display of passion and dedication" -- and while she most definitely was coming from a good place, that kind of acknowledgement creates a culture of guilt. We all want to be appreciated, so when you feel like you aren't doing as much as the next person, you start to feel really shitty. You feel like you NEED to stay and prove to your colleagues that you are passionate and work hard.
I wonder if at one point, when they were a much smaller studio, that crunch culture at Naughty Dog came from a place of camaraderie. I remember really building that trust and love for my co-workers on those really awful days back in retail -- the black fridays, cyber mondays, etc. We only had ourselves to rely on, and you got through those shitty days holding each other accountable. We'd laugh and high-five at the end of the day, in awe that we made it through such a fucking shit storm of shitty rude people.
Maybe that started right after Jason Rubin and Andy Gavin left the studio, and suddenly they became a studio that had to prove they could still make great games without the founders steering the wheel. I'm just spit-balling at this point. Whatever the case, its clearly out of control now.
Crunch will always be an interesting conversation in the games industry. I've worked retail and other crap jobs I hated for years, and working longer than 8 hours drove me mad, I fucking hated it.
However, with animation for example, sometimes, I gladly work longer than 8 hours. I play a role in the toxicity of crunch culture, unfortunately. It comes from a good place, though? I freaking love my job, sometimes it blows my mind that people give me money to do this. I mean, I did this shit for free/fun before I got a job in the industry, the fact that someone gives me money to essentially be a technical puppeteer? Awesome!
With that said, I actually had to have a conversation with my manager about how she needed to stop publicly praising people for staying late, and what she considered "a true display of passion and dedication" -- and while she most definitely was coming from a good place, that kind of acknowledgement creates a culture of guilt. We all want to be appreciated, so when you feel like you aren't doing as much as the next person, you start to feel really shitty. You feel like you NEED to stay and prove to your colleagues that you are passionate and work hard.
I wonder if at one point, when they were a much smaller studio, that crunch culture at Naughty Dog came from a place of camaraderie. I remember really building that trust and love for my co-workers on those really awful days back in retail -- the black fridays, cyber mondays, etc. We only had ourselves to rely on, and you got through those shitty days holding each other accountable. We'd laugh and high-five at the end of the day, in awe that we made it through such a fucking shit storm of shitty rude people.
Maybe that started right after Jason Rubin and Andy Gavin left the studio, and suddenly they became a studio that had to prove they could still make great games without the founders steering the wheel. I'm just spit-balling at this point. Whatever the case, its clearly out of control now.
lmao holy shit
Not to diminish ND's crunch issues, but this is relatively normal for the team. You would know this if you've been following any of the ND employees even before the crunch article + Cooper's tweets. These little celebrations aren't exclusive to attempting to make studios look good after an expose into their periods of unhealthy work culture.
I personally don't see this as creepy or abusive at all, but I can certainly understand how others may see it in a bad light or as some sort of a PR move after everything that's been revealed.
I see. But it doesn't seem like it blew up and got as much attention Jason's article, which was subsequently propped by up Cooper's tweets that continued the conversation and provided further insight into ND's sloppy management. 🤷♀️This isn't the first article about there crunch. Here is a similiar thread from last year
Naughty Dog crunch culture examined
Someone in the Sony gaming OT suggested I make a thread about this recent article that delved into crunch culture at Naughty Dog: https://cogconnected.com/feature/naughty-dog-crunch-game-development-sony-playstation-ps4/ Here's some quotes:
So, again, nothing is conclusive at this point. We can't possibly know how this news will end up affecting their work culture. It's not all black and white, no matter how many people from both sides seem to argue or insinuate otherwise.
This has to be the most pathetic post I've ever seen on this thread, and perhaps the site as a whole. Way to aggrandize an awful practice.
Game development has apparently turned into war. Die fighting for your country/company or leave.
Ouch.
Yes it is clear some will defend ND no matter what. You would not see this for most other developers.
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It didn't get attention because people are willing to forgive naughty dog for the way they treat their employees because .....video games? IDK.
We got people that think Gamescom should still go on in another thread so I'm not that surprised that people put games over human lives.
I love that you actually called out the dude by name lol. You should know that this place is filled with Sony and Naughty Dog bootlickers. As had been mentioned before had you written this article about say Ubisoft or EA or someone not naughty dog, there would have been less bootlicking and the thread would be different. As long as some people here get their games, fuck everything else.
You did a fantastic job with the article.
A day before: somewhere in the closed higher up offices of ND.
Evan Wells: "Hey, uh... Neil, that new article appeared. I think you'd better go and say something."
Neil: "Me? I'm just a VP, you're in charge!"
Evan: "Yeah but you are responsible for what happens with the team. I'm just cooking in my office, and ugh, I have all these numbers to look at, and phonecalls to make, man it's a pain."
Neil: "Okay... well, maybe, yeah.. I can write something I guess."
He even called them "Unsung heroes". I wonder who they are.
Yeah, those Gamescom people... wtf.
But I'm assuming that previous crunch article didn't get a lot of attention because it didn't have as much damning context/information as Jason's article and Cooper's further insight. People were much more willing to bat an eye regardless of the full blown evidence of overwork and toxic work culture that the management seems to encourage.
Now with Jason out here doing the lord's work (as always lol) + Cooper's words, we'll just have to see... 🤞
(Jason, pls write a follow up article after TLOU2 releases.)
I'm not sure, on Twitter you see ultra-capitalist sociopaths who are real.
Was it the same party where you heard that the new God of War game/demo was 'all smoke and mirrors'?
That was years prior to this, and wasn't from a group convo like the party. For context, the drunk exec story incident being discussed was when GoW was months from shipping, during holiday party as i understand it.
Crunch sucks yes but this isnt the only industry that has to work many hours coming from personal experience.
The article was fine and professional but the animator came off very childish.
The game is still day 1 for me as I have it preordered and if anything reward the people that busted their ass on the game.
The article was fine and professional but the animator came off very childish.
The game is still day 1 for me as I have it preordered and if anything reward the people that busted their ass on the game.
You know it takes a lot of effort to spew the biggest amount of shit in a thread like this but by god you are trying your damnedest aren't you?
GameSpot on Twitter
“Doom Eternal dev talks about crunch: "It's like a lifestyle. I live and breathe this." https://t.co/Rflq7SwYP5”
twitter.com
GameSpot on Twitter
“Doom Eternal dev talks about crunch: "It's like a lifestyle. I live and breathe this." https://t.co/Rflq7SwYP5”
These people always sound so god damn self-important when they talk about this shit and they clearly have no empathy for others.
Shouldn't they all be WFH by now anyway?
I think it's also important to note that a side effect of hours like this is that you wind up excluding or pushing out diverse employees - parents, people with disabilities, pregnant people, or people who do lots of unpaid labor to keep their households going. I'd imagine that has some effects on the game you make, and could contribute to a homogenous culture - which we all know is detrimental to products.
I think it's also important to note that a side effect of hours like this is that you wind up excluding or pushing out diverse employees - parents, people with disabilities, pregnant people, or people who do lots of unpaid labor to keep their households going. I'd imagine that has some effects on the game you make, and could contribute to a homogenous culture - which we all know is detrimental to products.
Reading the article, it's not completely what the headline implies.GameSpot on Twitter
“Doom Eternal dev talks about crunch: "It's like a lifestyle. I live and breathe this." https://t.co/Rflq7SwYP5”
It's about the creative director going from crunch to saying he spends a lot of time "researching" by playing games and reading comic books.
Hard to say it's exactly crunch, especially when it's not from a regular dev working his ass off.
So looking at some of the TLOUS PART 2 leaks brought meto this thread. Sorry for the bump.
But as somebody who sometimes has long stretches of working from home, that does not alleviate the pressure at all in regards to large workloads and responsibilities in an unreasonable amount of time (aka Crunch). In fact I'd argue it could potentially make things worse since it mind fucks you double fold. You're now a corporate slave in the comfort of your own home infront of your spouse and children wondering why the fuck you're doing this to yourself.