Glad someone exposed/called out ND for this. They're not as perfect as some seem to want to pretend.
I am here saying that him stating the truth, albeit like an asshole, obviously would make them pissed. At the same time people are so busy trying to use his use of words to poof away the idea that the management in ND is trash.
Him being an idiot about how he conveis the message doesnt simply remove any thruth from his statements.
And unsurprisingly this thread has gotten so hung up with trying to discredit him that we are back to my original statement in this thread: If this was Blizzard, Bethesda or EA none of these people would be fishing for ways to make his evil words go away.
I love how fast people trying to discredit the guy. ND ain't a God gifts to people like some might think. It's an acclaimed AAA studio that produces fantastic games at the cost of people's well being. Same as Rockstar, same as Sony Santa Monica, same as cdpr. ND ain't above them, especially in crunch. They are a studio as any other studio, it's about time to accept it
At the same time people are so busy trying to use his use of words to poof away the idea that the management in ND is trash.
I think you missed quite a few threads of people saying they weren't boycotting Blizzard, CDPR, THQ...
It's not just his use of words, dude has literally taken two pictures out of context on purpose in bad faith. Then there also other employees openly coming out about being happy working there.
Yet, you're "poofing" all that away because you've already made up your mind.
It's not just his use of words, dude has literally taken two pictures out of context on purpose in bad faith. Then there also other employees openly coming out about being happy working there.
Yet, you're "poofing" all that away because you've already made up your mind.
so does CDPR and R*ND is bit above others in crunch culture, ND openly prides itself in it.
It's because they are the trophy first party studio. You bad mouth then you bad mouth PlayStation and that's just too far for someBecause everyone knows boycotts dont work. I am not talking about boycotts. And you know it. People will shit hard on EA yet play the newest FIfa /COD etc. But ND is some kind of sacred fucking cow, where even the slightest mention of their management being bad leads to a swath of people running to their defense.
But this thread is about ex ND animator, isn't it? There's another one about that article. That btw, includes the hospitalization bit, and if that but it's based on this guy's witness, well.....
Because everyone knows boycotts dont work. I am not talking about boycotts. And you know it. People will shit hard on EA yet play the newest FIfa /COD etc. But ND is some kind of sacred fucking cow, where even the slightest mention of their management being bad leads to a swath of people running to their defense.
It's because they are the trophy first party studio. You bad mouth then you bad mouth PlayStation and that's just too far for some
So do the high ups at CDPR and Rockstar (before they got blasted anyway, I doubt they'll brag about it again). CDPR talked about it not even that long ago.ND is bit above others in crunch culture, ND openly prides itself in it.
this is the way most media circuses run - or political campaigns. God it is embarassing to see people attempt it.It's telling the people trying to defend ND are doing it in this thread rather than the thread about the article about it from Kotaku which has barely any activity by now. Easier to discredit the messenger here.
People aren't talking about ND management, yeah it's obviously bad. The problem is when he talked about his ex coworkers.
You seem more upset about people's perception of Naughty Dog being an elite studio than the actual discussion in this thread. Who said studio management matched the perception? There are good and bad stories here. Try not to focus on one side.But ND is some kind of sacred fucking cow, where even the slightest mention of their management being bad leads to a swath of people running to their defense.
I mean hold up, when did anyone of the ex employees say or indicate they are angry about his crunch comments? I haven't seen one yet at least.
I swear some of you guys want everything to be black and white. Yes crunch exists at ND and it's an important issue and needs addressing. He is also comes off like an asshole and throws his ex-colleagues under the bus by questioning their talent and by using even shit like unrelated health issues to fuel his twitter rants. Is that alone justifiable enough to make ex-colleagues upset? You better believe it is.
I repeat, TWO THINGS CAN BE RIGHT.
Yep and sadly people here can't read it seems. They seem to turn a blind eye to the comments from other ND devs and paint those who highlight the mas ND defenders/corporate apologists/fanboys etc. I mean seriously, wish people can identify both issues. Crunch culture is terrible and ND management needs to get their shit together. Throwing shade and misusing misfortune of ex-colleagues is a terrible look. Both things are correct.
Exactly, but if you point that out, then you are defending ND crunch culture by default. Tells quite a bit about the real issue about certain users, and it is not exactly crunch i'm afraid.Yeah, it's crazy seeing people getting called shills for taking issue with those tweets. They're not even defending ND's crunch. Even the ND employees acknowledge it.
Like, do people not see how gross it is to misrepresent a woman's illness and use it to fuel for your tirade? Not to mention stealing someone's private Facebook photo and editing it to fit your narrative. This shit wouldn't fly in any other thread. Maybe take the time to read this thread instead of doing drive by posts and calling people fanboys.
Seriously, Cooper didn't need to do all of that. His original tweets + Schreier's article were good enough to get the conversation rolling.
He's saying that while the team are talented, there's an unhealthy working culture but thanks to Sony's money, they could afford to let the unhealthy working culture unchecked and without a ultimatum that will force the studio to change anything.
No. He says the team is skilled but to many lack experience. Projects can't be finished within budget because of this and that's why their success isn't solely based on skill, but also on Sonys willingness to let ND constantly go over budget.
You seem more upset about people's perception of Naughty Dog being an elite studio than the actual discussion in this thread. Who said studio management matched the perception? There are good and bad stories here. Try not to focus on one side.
Can you point out in this thread where people are genuinely defending this?But that doesnt change the fact that the way they go about it in regards to how they use their workers is wrong and bad.
Can you point out in this thread where people are genuinely defending this?
There's also plenty of corroboration from journalists that the work culture at ND is terrible.
His recent tweets shows that he's a disgruntled ex employee that clearly has an agenda to knock naughty dog down a few pegs. His intentions seems to be more into destroying ND than standing up for his ex coworkers. However that doesn't negate his overall point that ND seems to be a fucked up place to work at with regards to crunching.
Hopefully this will shine a light on it and ND internally work towards doing better.
I said genuinely. Not one liner drivebys. Read my comment.Several posts on the first few pages. A mixture of "well crunch is needed to achieve this", and "well its much worse in other industries".
There are enough. I dont need to find them for you. Read the thread.
Imagine you are a senior gameplay animator at Naughty Dog that has just successfully lead a team of former VFX animators to produce top calibur game animation with the added challenge of navigating the new motion matching tech.Again, "the best". It's not an insult to think one studio out of literally thousands isn't the best.
He then goes on to explain why that was the case for him, which includes Naughty Dog's issue with talent retention, and how the new animators, while very talented, demanded a ton of training time, which detracted from the game's development, and overall makes it so he no longer considers Naughty Dog to be the best team of animators in the industry.
Sure.Imagine you are a senior gameplay animator at Naughty Dog that has just successfully lead a team of former VFX animators to produce top calibur game animation with the added challenge of navigating the new motion matching tech.
Then you get on Twitter today and come across a former coworker from the cinematics team saying all that future-facing animation work you and your team accomplished could have been wrapped up last year if it wasn't for all those "kids" you had to hire.
Doesn't end there. Why did he leave? It wasn't because he was working crazy hours. It wasn't because his department was mismanaged. No, he quit because apparently you and your team no longer consistute as the best in his eyes anymore. And apparently he feels strongly enough about it to say things on the internet that could damage your animation team's reputation.
Being the best or not is not the issue here. It's the way Cooper is publicly throwing his former peers under the bus. His commentary on the working conditions could have been stated in a much more respectful way.
I don't want to self promote, but I think this tweet is really good and deserves to be seen by more than no people.
Sure.
He's still not saying top talent doesn't exist at the studio. Quite the opposite, he's in fact saying the game will have industry leading animation, and that every studio should rush to hire these animators when their contracts expire.
You can take issue with the way he words things as much as you want, but he did not, in fact, say there was no top talent there anymore. He objectively said the opposite.
How I would feel reading his posts if I was a senior gameplay animator at Naughty Dog is completely irrelevant to what he factually did or didn't say.
It's very obvious that he takes issue with the time wasted training these animators to be up to their standards at Naughty Dog, but it's also very obvious that he does consider the end result to live up to these standards. Any other interpretation is fanfiction.
Again, there's nothing wrong with having an issue with how he's saying it, or to think it's offensive or whatever. But he did not, in fact, say there was no top talent at the team.
It's funny. CDPR crunched harder than any other developer for The Witcher 3 and that game has a legion of fans on this forum that never talk about crunching. Rockstar as well is notoriously known for it. The whole industry does it, and it's not just in gaming.
Like why did this guy have to go and throw a tantrum like this? He had good points and now he is completely discredited.
Pick up the pieces? He didn't shatter their livesHe is entitled to his opinion, but a few positive sentiments do not change the negative picture he is publicly painting of being an animator at Naught Dog. Think of his former peers that now have to pick up the pieces.