Glad someone exposed/called out ND for this. They're not as perfect as some seem to want to pretend.
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Ex-Naughty Dog animator: "ND's games success is due in large part to Sony's deep pocket funding delays rather than skill alone"
- Thread starter Lant_War
- Start date
I mean hold up, when did anyone of the ex employees say or indicate they are angry about his crunch comments? I haven't seen one yet at least.
I swear some of you guys want everything to be black and white. Yes crunch exists at ND and it's an important issue and needs addressing. He is also comes off like an asshole and throws his ex-colleagues under the bus by questioning their talent and by using even shit like unrelated health issues to fuel his twitter rants. Is that alone justifiable enough to make ex-colleagues upset? You better believe it is.
I repeat, TWO THINGS CAN BE RIGHT.
What do you mean 'fishing' for things? This is happening right now. His past comments I have seen were used mainly to indicate how he felt at the point of his departure. Also comments from him about how he talked about crunch while employed. I don't see how that is a witch hunt.
Calling these things doesn't make anyone a fanboy. I would agree with you that if anyone will use this to discredit everything about crunch issues, then that's wrong. But otherwise, people should be understand multiple aspects of the issue at hand without feeling so tribal.
ND is bit above others in crunch culture, ND openly prides itself in it.
It's not just his use of words, dude has literally taken two pictures out of context on purpose in bad faith. Then there also other employees openly coming out about being happy working there.
Yet, you're "poofing" all that away because you've already made up your mind.
Because everyone knows boycotts dont work. I am not talking about boycotts. And you know it. People will shit hard on EA yet play the newest FIfa /COD etc. But ND is some kind of sacred fucking cow, where even the slightest mention of their management being bad leads to a swath of people running to their defense. (And yes The Last of Us is one of the best games I have ever played)
There's also plenty of corroboration from journalists that the work culture at ND is terrible.
It's because they are the trophy first party studio. You bad mouth then you bad mouth PlayStation and that's just too far for some
But this thread is about ex ND animator, isn't it? There's another one about that article. That btw, includes the hospitalization bit, and if that but it's based on this guy's witness, well.....
What kind of fucked up social structure did we build that lead to people defending crunch culture? Defending huge businesses? Not giving a fuck about the poor souls that have to break their necks and backs to push out products. People falling over themselves to discredit anyone that shit talks ND. Is the guy a saint and an angel? No. Is his point about crunch still completely valid? Yes. Is it going to matter for the fools in this thread that want to hop up to defend a company's honor? No. Sad fucking world we live in.
CDPR hardly prirdes itself in it.
They own up to it. There is difference.
And R* seems like they want to act issue doesn't exist.
People aren't talking about ND management, yeah it's obviously bad. The problem is when he talked about his ex coworkers.
In a world with Media Molecule existing? nah
I'm not surprised by the people here defending the shit out of ND because they are always the ones pushing console warrior narratives in other threads.
It's super transparent.
No game is worth people being over worked and hospitalized over. It's just not. There is no justifying that.
It's ok to demand better work practices from ND
It's super transparent.
No game is worth people being over worked and hospitalized over. It's just not. There is no justifying that.
It's ok to demand better work practices from ND
So do the high ups at CDPR and Rockstar (before they got blasted anyway, I doubt they'll brag about it again). CDPR talked about it not even that long ago.
this is the way most media circuses run - or political campaigns. God it is embarassing to see people attempt it.
Yep and sadly people here can't read it seems. They seem to turn a blind eye to the comments from other ND devs and paint those who highlight the mas ND defenders/corporate apologists/fanboys etc. I mean seriously, wish people can identify both issues. Crunch culture is terrible and ND management needs to get their shit together. Throwing shade and misusing misfortune of ex-colleagues is a terrible look. Both things are correct.
Cooper's more recent tweets are pretty bad, not only in trying to drag other people's stuff into his own tangents but then being completely off-base on them, but in no way does that diminish or discredit his initial thread and his overall insights as an industry legend.
Also a lot of people continue to get swept up by the use of "kid" and "junior" and as asshole-y as those words come across I can't help but be sympathetic since it's something I've seen first-hand. If they can get away with it companies will gladly sweep up college grads, train them up as all-purpose full-stack developers, and throw them as bodies at whatever problem needs tackling. Anything to save money over hiring or contracting more seasoned and experienced people. And as skilled and as talented as you may be there's certain things that you'll only ever pick up from pure experience in the field.
Also a lot of people continue to get swept up by the use of "kid" and "junior" and as asshole-y as those words come across I can't help but be sympathetic since it's something I've seen first-hand. If they can get away with it companies will gladly sweep up college grads, train them up as all-purpose full-stack developers, and throw them as bodies at whatever problem needs tackling. Anything to save money over hiring or contracting more seasoned and experienced people. And as skilled and as talented as you may be there's certain things that you'll only ever pick up from pure experience in the field.
You seem more upset about people's perception of Naughty Dog being an elite studio than the actual discussion in this thread. Who said studio management matched the perception? There are good and bad stories here. Try not to focus on one side.
Either people dont know how to read, or are blindly ignoring what most here are posting. I've yet to see anyone defend ND here, yet thats all I keep reading in the comments, that people are defending ND. This thread is about the comments Jonathan Cooper made, he makes very valid points, which is there for everyone to read, but at the same time he comes off as an ass whole. If you want a specific topic about just crush, then go make that topic, but please dont turn a blind eye on this one, and pretend people are defending ND.
Yeah, it's crazy seeing people getting called shills for taking issue with those tweets. They're not even defending ND's crunch. Even the ND employees acknowledge it.
Like, do people not see how gross it is to misrepresent a woman's illness and use it to fuel for your tirade? Not to mention stealing someone's private Facebook photo and editing it to fit your narrative. This shit wouldn't fly in any other thread. Maybe take the time to read this thread instead of doing drive by posts and calling people fanboys.
Seriously, Cooper didn't need to do all of that. His original tweets + Schreier's article were good enough to get the conversation rolling.
Yep for some people objectivity goes out the window.
Yes he has a point about crunch and it need to change at ND even if the higher ups at SCEI need to step in .
He should have also not done what he did to his former coworkers and use wrong info with that .
Exactly, but if you point that out, then you are defending ND crunch culture by default. Tells quite a bit about the real issue about certain users, and it is not exactly crunch i'm afraid.
hehe no. Like I said Last of Us is one of the best games I have ever played. ND produces state of the art games. But that doesnt change the fact that the way they go about it in regards to how they use their workers is wrong and bad.
I miss when Straley mentioned how crazy they were tackling water in Uncharted 1. Back then, they were trying to make something new and big and bold and blow minds.
Then they kept pushing that envelope, probably attracting like minded devs who wanted to make those same leaps.
Crunching sucks. If it's too big, maybe scale back. We forum posters suck for going gaga over the attention of detail and then smearing the fuck out of developers for downgrades months after development. There's no doubt in my mind that crunch isn't just suit driven. The devs themselves are trying so hard to please the fanbase and influencers who could potentially tear them apart on social media and kill sales and cost jobs.
Again crunching sucks and things need to change. But let's fucking slow down on the name calling back and forth between "defenders" and "agenda-ers" and think of how the industry can improve as a whole from all sides, not just up top. Fuck, I just painted myself as an "all-sider" and that'll be the only thing noticed rather than my sentiment.
Then they kept pushing that envelope, probably attracting like minded devs who wanted to make those same leaps.
Crunching sucks. If it's too big, maybe scale back. We forum posters suck for going gaga over the attention of detail and then smearing the fuck out of developers for downgrades months after development. There's no doubt in my mind that crunch isn't just suit driven. The devs themselves are trying so hard to please the fanbase and influencers who could potentially tear them apart on social media and kill sales and cost jobs.
Again crunching sucks and things need to change. But let's fucking slow down on the name calling back and forth between "defenders" and "agenda-ers" and think of how the industry can improve as a whole from all sides, not just up top. Fuck, I just painted myself as an "all-sider" and that'll be the only thing noticed rather than my sentiment.
Can you point out in this thread where people are genuinely defending this?
As someone who has worked on highly regarded exclusives at one of Sony's studios, I can tell you that having more senior people do not necessary mean less crunch. I've been there. The reason is because we just push ourselves to even higher standard. This is the culture at SSM and ND. We kept pushing until the gold disc is burned. I am glad that I made some great games and learnt a lot. I am over with crunching now and I am at a studio where crunch culture is not expected and the norm.
His recent tweets shows that he's a disgruntled ex employee that clearly has an agenda to knock naughty dog down a few pegs. His intentions seems to be more into destroying ND than standing up for his ex coworkers. However that doesn't negate his overall point that ND seems to be a fucked up place to work at with regards to crunching.
Hopefully this will shine a light on it and ND internally work towards doing better.
Hopefully this will shine a light on it and ND internally work towards doing better.
Several posts on the first few pages. A mixture of "well crunch is needed to achieve this", and "well its much worse in other industries".
There are enough. I dont need to find them for you. Read the thread.
No? But, hopefully Cooper wasn't one of his sources.
Yeah. So, as we can see, some people are happy there and some aren't. Management should do their best to have more happy employees, clearly, but, I don't see that as "terrible" or "trash."
Yeah the whole stealing of facebook pictures and lying about a womens hospitilization is quite frankly terrible. And that would probably be enough to believe none of his words if not for Jasons article backing up the underlying issue. It seems Rockstar have changed after Jasons focus on them, and we can only hope ND does the same.
Imagine you are a senior gameplay animator at Naughty Dog that has just successfully lead a team of former VFX animators to produce top calibur game animation with the added challenge of navigating the new motion matching tech.
Then you get on Twitter today and come across a former coworker from the cinematics team saying all that future-facing animation work you and your team accomplished could have been wrapped up last year if it wasn't for all those "kids" you had to hire.
Doesn't end there. Why did he leave? It wasn't because he was working crazy hours. It wasn't because his department was mismanaged. No, he quit because apparently you and your team no longer consistute as the best in his eyes anymore. And apparently he feels strongly enough about it to say things on the internet that could damage your animation team's reputation.
Being the best or not is not the issue here. It's the way Cooper is publicly throwing his former peers under the bus. His commentary on the working conditions could have been stated in a much more respectful way.
Sure.
He's still not saying top talent doesn't exist at the studio. Quite the opposite, he's in fact saying the game will have industry leading animation, and that every studio should rush to hire these animators when their contracts expire.
You can take issue with the way he words things as much as you want, but he did not, in fact, say there was no top talent there anymore. He objectively said the opposite.
How I would feel reading his posts if I was a senior gameplay animator at Naughty Dog is completely irrelevant to what he factually did or didn't say.
It's very obvious that he takes issue with the time wasted training these animators to be up to their standards at Naughty Dog, but it's also very obvious that he does consider the end result to live up to these standards. Any other interpretation is fanfiction.
Again, there's nothing wrong with having an issue with how he's saying it, or to think it's offensive or whatever. But he did not, in fact, say there was no top talent at the team.
At the end of the day, people want what they want, and they will get what they can get. The average person couldn't care less "how the sausage is made." Naughty Dog makes extremely popular games so their workplace transgressions will be overlooked. Trying to guilt people into boycotting them is a waste of time. The Western World, especially America, has always run on hypocrisy.
I don't want to self promote, but I think this tweet is really good and deserves to be seen by more than no people.
I feel this thread has become so derailed and people are arguing against an idea of a person instead of people in this thread.
Whenever someone raises issues with Johnatan's tweets they are instantly dismissed as a "ND shill or apologist"
Perhaps earlier in the thread that might be more apt, but the people bringing up issues with Johnatan's tweets now are not "making excuses for ND or crunch"
I have issues with the crunch at ND. This is the second time they've been called out on it and it seems nothing has really changed internally. Johnatan acting like a secondary source in regards to these issues is not a problem, and people having issues with the idea of him speaking out should be met with scrutiny.
The problem I and other people have is how Johnatan is going about this.
People in the thread brought up the point that Johnatan being an asshole shouldn't diminish his points. Which is true to some extent.
The problem I and other people have is that Johnatan is being an asshole.
He has been punching down at new animators, diminishing their abilities, he has misconstrued peoples personal posts lying about the context of them. He didn't need to do these things to highlight the issues at Naughty Dog. But he did. And that's where the issue is. His language and posts are targeting the people who are being affected by this crunch. To air his grievances against ND, he started to punch down instead of up.
It doesn't change the fact there are crunch problems that seem culturally ingrained into ND, but the way he chose to air these things out seemed more motivated by personal issues than making things better for the people affected.
Whenever someone raises issues with Johnatan's tweets they are instantly dismissed as a "ND shill or apologist"
Perhaps earlier in the thread that might be more apt, but the people bringing up issues with Johnatan's tweets now are not "making excuses for ND or crunch"
I have issues with the crunch at ND. This is the second time they've been called out on it and it seems nothing has really changed internally. Johnatan acting like a secondary source in regards to these issues is not a problem, and people having issues with the idea of him speaking out should be met with scrutiny.
The problem I and other people have is how Johnatan is going about this.
People in the thread brought up the point that Johnatan being an asshole shouldn't diminish his points. Which is true to some extent.
The problem I and other people have is that Johnatan is being an asshole.
He has been punching down at new animators, diminishing their abilities, he has misconstrued peoples personal posts lying about the context of them. He didn't need to do these things to highlight the issues at Naughty Dog. But he did. And that's where the issue is. His language and posts are targeting the people who are being affected by this crunch. To air his grievances against ND, he started to punch down instead of up.
It doesn't change the fact there are crunch problems that seem culturally ingrained into ND, but the way he chose to air these things out seemed more motivated by personal issues than making things better for the people affected.
He is entitled to his opinion, but a few positive sentiments do not change the negative picture he is publicly painting of being an animator at Naught Dog. Think of his former peers that now have to pick up the pieces.
It's funny. CDPR crunched harder than any other developer for The Witcher 3 and that game has a legion of fans on this forum that never talk about crunching. Rockstar as well is notoriously known for it. The whole industry does it, and it's not just in gaming.
Wow, Cooper is coming off as a giant asshole now. Christ.
What an idiot.
He should stick to his own situation (like his paycheck getting whitholded which his absolutely disgusting) and not involve his past coworkers, especially when that involves lying. His comments about the animation team weren't great either. Regarding Neil tweets, they were pretty clearly made to go against this dude statements (first animators, then production).
Hopefully ND makes some kind of statement regarding Jason article though. Long stretches of crunching can't be the solution for anything.