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CaptainKashup

Banned
May 10, 2018
8,313
You guys are so hung up on defending ND that you aren't even reading this stuff.

Except I do ? I know that sales pay for employee, that's why I'm buying the game and not boycotting. The problem is, a lot of people here are going to boycott with the false beliefs that employee don't get bonuses. So in the end, they're just going to make it worse for the little guys.
 

scrambledeggs

Member
Apr 25, 2018
486
Like why did this guy have to go and throw a tantrum like this? He had good points and now he is completely discredited.


Cooper, stoppppppppp.

He really should've just sat back and let the article and his initial tweets do the talking.

And I remember seeing this in another thread earlier and thinking the picture looks suspect in relation to his tweet lol.
 

Muffin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,339
So there was some more conversation in the tweets.

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Since when is calling somebody a junior condescending? I understand being slightly annoyed at the use of "kids", but Junior Developer etc. is just a common job description.
 

babycakin

Member
Nov 2, 2019
280
This is so damn sad. Naughty Dog is my fav studio of all time so to hear all this SUCKS!!!

I will still buy their games only to help pay for all the hard work these developers, animators etc etc have put into these projects.
 

JamRock7

Banned
Aug 19, 2019
2,125
FL
He's the one trying?

Jonathan took a tweet about another health problem and said "ND Crunch!!". Sounds like he's really concerned.
Yes he is. He's been desperately looking for call outs for this guy on twitter and posting them here in attempt to turn the narrative against Jonathan. All for a game's company
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
yeah it so sad just coz they make your best games that doesn't mean you defends their bad practice...

and now both really doing damage control and attack each other (Copper, and ND devs)

I mostly play on the PS4 Pro (currently switching to PC) but holy shit am I disgusted by the community, hell I am actually shame of it now.

They are trying their absolute best to either hide or defend ND's behavior, and most of them try to ignore all the issues going on within the studio and only focus on the crunch part while saying ''yeah too bad but that's AAA for you''

They are basically trying to downplay & simplify all of the issues to damage control their beloved studio. Metaphorically they are literally drones.
Don't warn or ban me for this you know damn well it's true. These people are NOT fighting in good faith.

At least Johnathan had good reasons to be pissed off. Dude worked at ND for years, suddenly the fans are acting like this person is their enemy.
Might as well delete Uncharted 4 forever cause they probably don't want to see his work ever again.

As I said before: all of these former employees are fighting with current employees and Neil & the heads are all laughing at the plebs fighting each other as they get away with shitty practices.

Don't worry, Karma is waiting.

Sooner or later it's all gonna crumble for Neil.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,494
Yes he is. He's been desperately looking for call outs for this guy on twitter and posting them here in attempt to turn the narrative against Jonathan. All for a game's company

But Jonathan is giving the "material" himself, as you can see many devs replying him about what he said.
 

Tovarisc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,402
FIN
You can be an asshole and still be right. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

His follow up tweets and fucks up don't mean his OG thread is any less truthful so don't trip over yourself to call him total liar just to feel better about TLOU2 pre-order.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
He just acknowledged it was condescending of him. At least he owned up to it.

Because its fair. He should word it better, but in all this she is calling out his specific use of words, at the same time never engaging the deeper issue. If what he said is not true why not dispute that? Why get hung up on what word is used?
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
You can be an asshole and still be right. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

His follow up tweets and fucks up don't mean his OG thread is any less truthful so don't trip over yourself to call him total liar just to feel better about TLOU2 pre-order.

Bingo
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Except I do ? I know that sales pay for employee, that's why I'm buying the game and not boycotting. The problem is, a lot of people here are going to boycott with the false beliefs that employee don't get bonuses. So in the end, they're just going to make it worse for the little guys.
I have no plans to boycott the game at all, but this reasoning is nonsense. I guarantee I make less money than any Naughty Dog employee. I'm the little guy. It's not my job to guarantee their financial security. Boycotting or not has to do with how comfortable I personally feel with supporting the company after the things I've learned about their practices.

Which involve not paying someone their money until they signed a brand new NDA. Or, to be more accurate, to threaten not to pay them until they bring up this is likely illegal, and then backing off.
 

BlacJack22

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 25, 2020
30
You guys are so hung up on defending ND that you aren't even reading this stuff.

It's telling that this is how you view a conversation like this. Blasting this guy is not a defense of ND.
i don't see how that's relevant to the point the person you quoted made. is this a "but he was trying harder" thing? lol

The dude he quoted edited a picture in a false attempt to back his position. The other person simply posted his tweet. One of those comes off as "trying," the other comes off as passing along information.

Is the OP then "trying too hard" in your opinion, or were they simply passing information along? In my opinion, he was just passing along information, much like the OP.
 

RedHeat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,684
You can be an asshole and still be right. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

His follow up tweets and fucks up don't mean his OG thread is any less truthful so don't trip over yourself to call him total liar just to feel better about TLOU2 pre-order.
It calls his entire character into question and his exact motives beyond shining a spotlight on crunch culture; he obviously isn't doing it outta the kindness of his heart.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
I mostly play on the PS4 Pro (currently switching to PC) but holy shit am I disgusted by the community, hell I am actually shame of it now.

They are trying their absolute best to either hide or defend ND's behavior, and most of them try to ignore all the issues going on within the studio and only focus on the crunch part while saying ''yeah too bad but that's AAA for you''

They are basically trying to downplay & simplify all of the issues to damage control their beloved studio. Metaphorically they are literally drones.
Don't warn or ban me for this you know damn well it's true. These people are NOT fighting in good faith.

At least Johnathan had good reasons to be pissed off. Dude worked at ND for years, suddenly the fans are acting like this person is their enemy.
Might as well delete Uncharted 4 forever cause they probably don't want to see his work ever again.
It's funny because this is the same guy who called out that Tomb Raider developer who said the animations in The Last of Us Part II were fake. Fanboys were happy to treat his word as the voice of god when it alligned with their preconceived truths.

 

Ebtesam

Self-Requested Ban
Member
Apr 1, 2018
4,638
I mostly play on the PS4 Pro (currently switching to PC) but holy shit am I disgusted by the community, hell I am actually shame of it now.

They are trying their absolute best to either hide or defend ND's behavior, and most of them try to ignore all the issues going on within the studio and only focus on the crunch part while saying ''yeah that's too bad but that's AAA for you''

They are basically trying to downplay & simplify all of the issues to damage control their beloved studio. Metaphorically they are literally drones.
Don't warn or ban me for this you know damn well it's true. These people are NOT fighting in good faith.

At least Johnathan had good reasons to be pissed off. Dude worked at ND for years, suddenly the ''Naughty Gods'' fans are acting like this person is their enemy.
Might as well delete Uncharted 4 forever cause they probably don't want to see his work ever again.



Don't worry, Karma is waiting.

Sooner or later it's all gonna crumble for Neil.
yeah both here and in twitter they are really blind and for them this isn't issue at all


Johnathan need to stop drag the workers to this mess it's unfair
 

lynux3

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
569
Yes he is. He's been desperately looking for call outs for this guy on twitter and posting them here in attempt to turn the narrative against Jonathan. All for a game's company
Don't you think it's hard to take it seriously when he's posting pictures out of context to support his narrative? No one is saying Cooper is full of shit in his observations working at Naughty Dog. You spin shit, you get called out. It's that simple.
 

B.O.O.M.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,756
Because its fair. He should word it better, but in all this she is calling out his specific use of words, at the same time never engaging the deeper issue. If what he said is not true why not dispute that? Why get hung up on what word is used?

Because it's offensive to them. They feel like he was belittling them. Are you here actually trying to argue they should not feel the way they do? He even used someones health issues to make a point and it backfired. Like what kind of a colleague (ex or otherwise) to do that.

Like this thread is toxic as shit. Two things can be right. Crunch culture is terrible and it should be addressed and discussed. Cooper comes off as an ex employee with an axe to grind who is throwing a lot of his ex-colleagues under the bus. You and others here might want to say that is not important but clearly his ex-colleagues feel differently.

Also this bullshit coments about anyone who even remotely tries to talk on behalf of ND devs or employees being some type of a shill is beneath this forum..or hell at least it should be. Nothing is every black and white and people just need to grow up. all this within quoted 'bu bu naughty dogs' comments make ppl come off as absolute morons.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,494
It's funny because this is the same guy who called out that Tomb Raider developer who said the animations in The Last of Us Part II were fake. Fanboys were happy to treat his word as the voice of god when it alligned with their preconceived truths.



The Tomb Raider dev disrespected his work, as he is doing now with other animators.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
Because its fair. He should word it better, but in all this she is calling out his specific use of words, at the same time never engaging the deeper issue. If what he said is not true why not dispute that? Why get hung up on what word is used?

Because the goal here is not seeking the truth.

The goal here is not seeking justice or solution.

The goal here is not even about concerning the employees at Naughty Dog.

No, the goal is too discredit Johnathan Cooper, for he is a threat to Naughty Dog's reputation.
 

Tovarisc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,402
FIN
It calls his entire character into question and his exact motives beyond shining a spotlight on crunch culture; he obviously isn't doing it outta the kindness of his heart.

He has agenda. You have agenda. I have agenda.

No shit we are driven by our own agendas?

Do you also question accuracy and authenticity of Jason's reporting now as ex-ND devs tweets are in line with that?
 

Duderino

Member
Nov 2, 2017
305
I agree with Alexandria here.

Johnathan should have avoided calling ND animators "kids".

It's also insulting to the team to suggest the best of the best no longer work at ND. Yes, lots of skilled people have left over the years, but that does not necessarily mean top talent no longer exists at the studio. Especially considering how the new staff has no doubt grown over the course of TLOU2's development.

There's a degree of huberious here that is unfortunately muddying up the point about working conditions.
 

Igniz12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,432
People have found the most flimsiest of outs and are now clinging onto it for dear life while acting like smug bastards.

Idk what that Cooper guy's MO is but at least JS is indirectly corroborating Cooper's posts with his piece. I imagine having worked there and seen his friends suffer through that he might be a bit overzealous in his methods....or he may just be an asshole but the point still stands on ND and their work culture.
 

JamRock7

Banned
Aug 19, 2019
2,125
FL
Don't you think it's hard to take it seriously when he's posting pictures out of context to support his narrative? No one is saying Cooper is full of shit in his observations working at Naughty Dog. You spin shit, you get called out. It's that simple.
That's true I'm just drawing attention towards that certain poster and how hard they've been trying to find anything against him lately that's all
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
I agree with Alexandria here.

Johnathan should have avoided calling ND animators "kids".

It's also insulting to the team to suggest the best of the best no longer work at ND. Yes, lots of skilled people have left over the years, but that does not necessarily mean top talent no longer exists at the studio. Especially considering how the new staff has no doubt grown over the course of TLOU2's development.

There's a degree of huberious here that is unfortunately muddying up the point about working conditions.
He never said top talent no longer exists at the studio, quite the opposite, he says the game will have industry leading animations.

Not being the best of the best isn't an insult. There are thousands of studios out there, only one can be considered the very best by each person. He no longer considers Naughty Dog to be that studio, I personally never did. They're still amazing.

You don't call average animations "industry leading", or recommend that other studios grab all these animators as soon as their contracts expire. He clearly, CLEARLY considers them to be top tier in that department.
 

Conal

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,868
Since when is calling somebody a junior condescending? I understand being slightly annoyed at the use of "kids", but Junior Developer etc. is just a common job description.

You've just fallen for a pretty common argumentative technique, he conflates 'kids' and 'juniors' not her.
 

Duderino

Member
Nov 2, 2017
305
He never said top talent no longer exists at the studio, quite the opposite, he says the game will have industry leading animations.

Not being the best of the best isn't an insult. There are thousands of studios out there, only one can be considered the very best by each person. He no longer considers Naughty Dog to be that studio, I personally never did. They're still amazing.

You don't call average animations "industry leading", or recommend that other studios grab all these animators as soon as their contracts expire. He clearly, CLEARLY considers them to be top tier in that department.

 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Again, "the best". It's not an insult to think one studio out of literally thousands isn't the best.

He then goes on to explain why that was the case for him, which includes Naughty Dog's issue with talent retention, and how the new animators, while very talented, demanded a ton of training time, which detracted from the game's development, and overall makes it so he no longer considers Naughty Dog to be the best team of animators in the industry.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
Because it's offensive to them. They feel like he was belittling them. Are you here actually trying to argue they should not feel the way they do? He even used someones health issues to make a point and it backfired. Like what kind of a colleague (ex or otherwise) to do that.

Like this thread is toxic as shit. Two things can be right. Crunch culture is terrible and it should be addressed and discussed. Cooper comes off as an ex employee with an axe to grind who is throwing a lot of his ex-colleagues under the bus. You and others here might want to say that is not important but clearly his ex-colleagues feel differently.

Also this bullshit coments about anyone who even remotely tries to talk on behalf of ND devs or employees being some type of a shill is beneath this forum..or hell at least it should be. Nothing is every black and white and people just need to grow up. all this within quoted 'bu bu naughty dogs' comments make ppl come off as absolute morons.

I am here saying that him stating the truth, albeit like an asshole, obviously would make them pissed. At the same time people are so busy trying to use his use of words to poof away the idea that the management in ND is trash.
Him being an idiot about how he conveis the message doesnt simply remove any thruth from his statements.
And unsurprisingly this thread has gotten so hung up with trying to discredit him that we are back to my original statement in this thread: If this was Blizzard, Bethesda or EA none of these people would be fishing for ways to make his evil words go away.
 

Muffin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,339
You've just fallen for a pretty common argumentative technique, he conflates 'kids' and 'juniors' not her.
I didn't fall for anything, I know what he wrote. She didnt criticize the use of the word 'junior' but he apologized for it along with his other words, which just made me wonder why he'd apologize for that too.
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
Cooper, stoppppppppp.

He really should've just sat back and let the article and his initial tweets do the talking.

And I remember seeing this in another thread earlier and thinking the picture looks suspect in relation to his tweet lol.
The source of the picture doesn't take away from his point. The contractors who are whipped and bled to make this game receive zero bonuses and were let go this week. They are no longer employed by Naughty Dog and should be rewarded. But they won't be.

Druckmann and co however, do.
 

lynux3

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
569
That's true I'm just drawing attention towards that certain poster and how hard they've been trying to find anything against him lately that's all
I find it all revealing to say the least. Cooper seemed to enjoy his job at some point not too long ago, and he appears to be a highly decorated animator. Naughty Dog is a highly respected studio. I think it's fair to draw attention to him, for or against him, considering he's generating the attention... For better or worse.

Hopefully the Naughty Dogs are healthy and the company looks at this and makes the proper adjustments for the best. I have absolutely zero reason not to believe him. I've been there minus the crunch factor and more on the talent attrition factor. It can be frustrating.
 

Edgar

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,180
I love how fast people trying to discredit the guy. ND ain't a God gifts to people like some might think. It's an acclaimed AAA studio that produces fantastic games at the cost of people's well being. Same as Rockstar, same as Sony Santa Monica, same as cdpr. ND ain't above them, especially in crunch. They are a studio as any other studio, it's about time to accept it
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,494
And unsurprisingly this thread has gotten so hung up with trying to discredit him that we are back to my original statement in this thread: If this was Blizzard, Bethesda or EA none of these people would be fishing for ways to make his evil words go away.

I think you missed quite a few threads of people saying they weren't boycotting Blizzard, CDPR, THQ...