Ex-Naughty Dog animator: "ND's games success is due in large part to Sony's deep pocket funding delays rather than skill alone"

Lyng · Mar 14, 2020

TheChungusAmongUs said:
It doesn't, but it shows he isn't doing this out of the best interest of the people who are being affected by this.

A lot of this feels like disgruntled ex-employee stuff especially with the fact he diminishes the ability of the new hires ND gets.

No it doesnt. Anyone who has even the slightest experience with larger corporations knows that the approach of signing a ton of inexperienced contractors leads to extra work, crunch and mistakes.
Obviously one of said inexperienced devs is going to get pissed being called kids, but having inexperienced devs feels like working with kids.
Before this job I worked in a rather high position in car development for one of the biggest aluminum production companies in the world and we created and developed designs for BMW, Porshe, Lamborghini etc. At some point management decided to, instead of treating the experienced workers and devs properly to simply replace them with new hungry talent. These new workers and devs where talented and wanted to prove to the world that they rocked. But experience matters a great deal more than people here seem to think. I was in charge of logistics for our biggest customer BMW, and working with these new developers was like working with kids just coming from school because they had no fucking clue how the business works, and obviously that added mistakes, and work time and crunch for everyone fixing their mistakes.
Thats what I get out of his tweets.

Oregano · Mar 14, 2020

I like how the fanboys and defenders are focusing on the one weakness of his point to distract from his very valid overall point. Dude fucked up but even the person snapping back at him clearly isn't denying the underlying issues.

Shairi · Mar 14, 2020

Naga said:
Unless his team works via twitter, I doubt he's doing damage control to keep morale up in the team.
Damage control is done internally (cf the internal mail at Rockstar after Schreier's article on those conditions last time), and if this is supposed to be damage control, he's failing miserably at doing it.

edit: that said, looking at the number of likes on those tweets, and how fanboys are behaving online, this certainly works to attack other developers instead.

Leads to tons of people missing the point.

Yeah, these are some stupid tweets, especially since nintendo teams are known for their crunch.

The visuals of a game does not tell you whether there has been crunch or not. Indie devs crunch even more than AAA studios.

Anyway, putting blame on Neil for how fanboys behave is quite a stretch.

Deleted member 17184 · Mar 14, 2020

Sense said:
Guess someone at naughty dog has had enough of this. Dude is coming across as a disgruntled former employee even though he is pointing out some things that need attention

https://twitter.com/beavs/status/1238875943470415872?s=21

I agree with him calling out bad practices, but she's also absolutely right in calling him out for doing that about his former coworkers. He should definitely apologize for that, not just delete a tweet.

Anya7890 · Mar 14, 2020

RedHeat said:
Whoops.

So it's a shit slinging contest now? Awesome, meanwhile, Neil & his heads laugh at the plebs fighting on the ground.

Blade Wolf · Mar 14, 2020

Seriously the first party defenders are f*cking pathetic, I bet they are jumping up & down right now screaming ''GOT HIM!''

I've yet to see a more toxic & disgusting fanbase that's willing to overlook all controversies just to support their gods

Carbine789 said:
meanwhile, Neil & his heads laugh at the plebs fighting on the ground.

Yep Neil is totally laughing cause that's exactly the kind of sad person he is.

Otnopolit · Mar 14, 2020

Oregano said:
I like how the fanboys and defenders are focusing on the one weakness of his point to distract from his very valid overall point. Dude fucked up but even the person snapping back at him clearly isn't denying the underlying issues.

People really think these corporations are their friends and stand for "good". We COULD have had corporations like that in the states if we had the laws set up, but greed is the main export, and money is the import.

I love ND's games, but obviously them and some of my other favorite devs are taking advantage of workers.

Sense · Mar 14, 2020

Phamit said:
He made a shout out to hire them, if their contracts expire.

No? How did you came to the conclusion that I think it's all good because he deleted it. It's a bullshit tweet, that's why I said beside that particular tweet.

Just asking questions to clarify. havent come to any conclusion

Equanimity · Mar 14, 2020

RedHeat said:
Whoops.

Oh wow

Splader · Mar 14, 2020

I've always thought the term "kid" is pretty insulting when said by someone with similar age and experience.

Barring that though, if someone much older than me called me a kid, I wouldn't take it in an offensive way.

But that's just me, and I can see why others would react differently.

tzare · Mar 14, 2020

MistahS said:
I think Schreier's article and even linking to his original tweet thread verify it enough.

It is never a bad thing to verify further. Especially when he has even deleted tweets. It doesn't mean ND and crunch is false either. It just means this particular source has lost some of its reliability

BlacJack22 · Mar 14, 2020

kiaaa said:
A company actually did get shit on and the union hall almost took away their apprentices from my entering class because they laid off 20-30 guys when they got 30 apprentices. Replacing senior employees with junior ones is both shitty and short-sighted.

It's not insulting to say that less experienced employees are going to require training to be as effective as the senior employees. It's a fact.

Of course it's fact, that's why him putting people on blast like that comes off as rude. There is no point in saying it as wrecklessly as he did and it will make him no friends in future workplaces. Like, no shit things would be better if everyone was an expert. He has no reason to publically blast co-workers because he is mad at mismanagement. Employee turnover is a thing EVERYWHERE.

Oregano · Mar 14, 2020

Shairi said:
Yeah, these are some stupid tweets, especially since nintendo teams are known for their crunch.

The visuals of a game does not tell you whether there has been crunch or not. Indie devs crunch even more than AAA studios.

Anyway, putting blame on Neil for how fanboys behave is quite a stretch.

I don't think that's true. I remember Tetsuya Takahashi said that it's much easier for them to avoid crunch now that they're part of Nintendo. I'm sure it absolutely still happens though.

Otnopolit said:
People really think these corporations are their friends and stand for "good". We COULD have had corporations like that in the states if we had the laws set up, but greed is the main export, and money is the import.

I love ND's games, but obviously them and some of my other favorite devs are taking advantage of workers.

It's not just the US though, it happens worldwide and whilst it's unrelated you can bet corporations are going to use the ramifications of COVID-19 to their advantage. It's actually quite a worry that my department's lifespan might shorten because if the contingency plan we have becomes the accepted norm it might be better for the company to cut us completely. I would probably be re-assigned but I don't think my colleagues would be so lucky.

IOTS · Mar 14, 2020

Splader said:
I've always thought the term "kid" is pretty insulting when said by someone with similar age and experience.

Barring that though, if someone much older than me called me a kid, I wouldn't take it in an offensive way.

But that's just me, and I can see why others would react differently.

How old are you? And how old does the person have to be to be able to call you a kid?

scrambledeggs · Mar 14, 2020

Druckmann's tweets in context with Alexandria's make a little more sense now. It doesn't excuse the lack of acknowledgement of the studio's crunch culture, but I think it's better communicated outside of twitter anyway.

Splader · Mar 14, 2020

BlacJack22 said:
Of course it's fact, that's why him putting people on blast like that comes off as rude. There is no point in saying it as wrecklessly as he did and it will make him no friends in future workplaces. Like, no shit things would be better if everyone was an expert. He has no reason to publically blast co-workers because he is mad at mismanagement. Employee turnover is a thing EVERYWHERE.

Are we talking about his original string of posts here? Where he wasn't insulting anyone but the management?

IOTS said:
How old are you? And how old does the person have to be to be able to call you a kid?

I'm 26. If someone in their 40s or up referred to me as a kid I wouldn't get up in arms (depending on context too, of course).
Subjective, I know.

kiaaa · Mar 14, 2020

IOTS said:
How old are you? And how old does the person have to be to be able to call you a kid?

I'm 30 (to be fair, I look young) and I get called a kid all the time by older guys. It's not meant as an insult.

BlacJack22 said:
The way those original tweets read (without his later context) and his following tweets clearly made the case for him. There are much better ways to word this than the way he did. Communication isn't his strong suit, and this is the result.

More concern about this guy burning bridges than the situation at ND makes your posts kinda disingenuous.

BlacJack22 · Mar 14, 2020

Splader said:
Are we talking about his original string of posts here? Where he wasn't insulting anyone but the management?

The way those original tweets read (without his later context) and his following tweets clearly made the case for him. There are much better ways to word this than the way he did. Communication isn't his strong suit, and this is the result.

Deleted member 135 · Mar 14, 2020

Like why did this guy have to go and throw a tantrum like this? He had good points and now he is completely discredited.

Toumari · Mar 14, 2020

Edit: Already posted.

Blade Wolf · Mar 14, 2020

BlacJack22 said:
The way those original tweets read (without his later context) and his following tweets clearly made the case for him. There are much better ways to word this than the way he did. Communication isn't his strong suit, and this is the result.

His communication ain't half as bad as Naughty Dog's management & morality though.

We have more than enough evidence to say that Naughty Dog is terrible place to work at.
Amy & Bruce didn't left just for giggles, and Johnathan didn't get pissed off for no reason.

The fact is, Naughty Dog has become something horrible.

TheChungusAmongUs · Mar 14, 2020

Lyng said:
No it doesnt. Anyone who has even the slightest experience with larger corporations knows that the approach of signing a ton of inexperienced contractors leads to extra work, crunch and mistakes.
Obviously one of said inexperienced devs is going to get pissed being called kids, but having inexperienced devs feels like working with kids.
Before this job I worked in a rather high position in car development for one of the biggest aluminum production companies in the world and we created and developed designs for BMW, Porshe, Lamborghini etc. At some point management decided to, instead of treating the experienced workers and devs properly to simply replace them with new hungry talent. These new workers and devs where talented and wanted to prove to the world that they rocked. But experience matters a great deal more than people here seem to think. I was in charge of logistics for our biggest customer BMW, and working with these new developers was like working with kids just coming from school because they had no fucking clue how the business works, and obviously that added mistakes, and work time and crunch for everyone fixing their mistakes.
Thats what I get out of his tweets.

And that's based on your perspective based on your experience. I am well aware of companies throwing talent at a rapid pace into a meat grinder and replacing them constantly.

However, he is still diminishing those new hires abilities. I have no issues with anything else he said, but the way he is dragging those new hires rubbed me the wrong way. And that ND employee calling him out on that echoes my sentiment.

He's dragging individuals instead of the company.

Just like how some people in this thread are trying to place all the blame onto Neil Druckmann

Splader · Mar 14, 2020

SG-17 said:
Like why did this guy have to go and throw a tantrum like this? He had good points and now he is completely discredited.

Sigh... Not a good look for him.

He should have stuck with his original thread and just kept the focus on battling crunch culture.

kiaaa · Mar 14, 2020

SG-17 said:
Like why did this guy have to go and throw a tantrum like this? He had good points and now he is completely discredited.

How is he discredited and why have you been trying to find gotchas on this guy to defend ND this entire thread?

IOTS · Mar 14, 2020

Splader said:
I'm 26. If someone in their 40s or up referred to me as a kid I wouldn't get up in arms (depending on context too, of course).
Subjective, I know.

You are pretty lenient. I definitly would not allow people to call me a kid with just a 10 or something year age gap.

RedHeat · Mar 14, 2020

SG-17 said:
Like why did this guy have to go and throw a tantrum like this? He had good points and now he is completely discredited.

DailyCalmSpirit · Mar 14, 2020

Lyng said:
Obviously one of said inexperienced devs is going to get pissed being called kids, but having inexperienced devs feels like working with kids

Are you saying she's inexperienced? She worked there longer than he did, and she's still there.

BlacJack22 · Mar 14, 2020

kiaaa said:
I'm 30 (to be fair, I look young) and I get called a kid all the time by older guys. It's not meant as an insult.

More concern about this guy burning bridges than the situation at ND makes your posts kinda disingenuous.

Not at all, and him burning bridges isn't my concern either, him being an asshole to coworkers in public is. I feel that was pretty clear...

I've addressed the crunch earlier, and I already directly commented that I see his "intent" on his tweets. I'm literally saying he is helping no one in his approach.

lynux3 · Mar 14, 2020

kiaaa said:
How is he discredited and why have you been trying to find gotchas on this guy to defend ND this entire thread?

It's almost like you didn't read the tweets...

Ebtesam · Mar 14, 2020

this thread is one of the worst on here

M4xim1l1ano · Mar 14, 2020

TheChungusAmongUs said:
And that's based on your perspective based on your experience. I am well aware of companies throwing talent at a rapid pace into a meat grinder and replacing them constantly.

However, he is still diminishing those new hires abilities. I have no issues with anything else he said, but the way he is dragging those new hires rubbed me the wrong way. And that ND employee calling him out on that echoes my sentiment.

He's dragging individuals instead of the company.

Just like how some people in this thread are trying to place all the blame onto Neil Druckmann

Sorry, I don't know ND hierarchy but who is part of leadership/management of ND? Those persons have the responsibility for this and well, parent company as well.

MJKadhim · Mar 14, 2020

the dude is butthurted...

JamRock7 · Mar 14, 2020

SG-17 said:
Like why did this guy have to go and throw a tantrum like this? He had good points and now he is completely discredited.

This is actually kinda sad how hard you're trying

Blade Wolf · Mar 14, 2020

SG-17 said:
He had good points and now he is completely discredited.

In what way is he discredited? Are you playing that ''gotcha'' game again?

Come on, just say it.

''We forgive you, Naughty Gods''

MJKadhim said:
the dude is butthurted...

Over a shitty studio that treat people like shit.

Splader · Mar 14, 2020

IOTS said:
You are pretty lenient. I definitly would not allow people to call me a kid with just a 10 or something year age gap.

Truthfully, this is largely because of where I'm at in my life right now. If I was fully comfortable in a respectable profession, then I don't think I'd be as lenient. But as I'm still trying to make something of anything, when people call me out I don't take it as personally. Maybe because I agree with them a little bit? I don't know, though I do know I need to work on my self confidence.

exstuhsey · Mar 14, 2020

Stoopkid said:
And of course this thread starts to slowdown when somebody calls him out. Classic era.

This lmao

sirap · Mar 14, 2020

SG-17 said:
Like why did this guy have to go and throw a tantrum like this? He had good points and now he is completely discredited.

Man that's just scummy. He should know better than to use someone else's photo like that.

Splader · Mar 14, 2020

So there was some more conversation in the tweets.

Blade Wolf · Mar 14, 2020

Ebtesam said:
this thread is one of the worst on here

it exposes a lot of ''fans''

RedHeat · Mar 14, 2020

exstuhsey · Mar 14, 2020

SG-17 said:
Like why did this guy have to go and throw a tantrum like this? He had good points and now he is completely discredited.

LMFAO love how he is digging a joke for himself absolutely marvelous.

CaptainKashup · Mar 14, 2020

He's coming more and more like an elitist douche.
Crunch is terrible but boycotting the game ? Making these years of hardwork amount to nothing ? No thanks.

Lyng · Mar 14, 2020

TheChungusAmongUs said:
And that's based on your perspective based on your experience. I am well aware of companies throwing talent at a rapid pace into a meat grinder and replacing them constantly.

However, he is still diminishing those new hires abilities. I have no issues with anything else he said, but the way he is dragging those new hires rubbed me the wrong way. And that ND employee calling him out on that echoes my sentiment.

He's dragging individuals instead of the company.

Just like how some people in this thread are trying to place all the blame onto Neil Druckmann

The only thing I read he called them very talented? Obviously they are not going to be as effective as seasoned devs. It's not a dig it's simple facts.

kiaaa · Mar 14, 2020

CaptainKashup said:
He's coming more and more like an elitist douche.
Crunch is terrible but boycotting the game ? Making these years of hardwork amount to nothing ? No thanks.

If you're concerned about supporting these work practices towards the people making your favourite games, please continue to call studios out but don't feel obliged to boycott the games. Sales pay for employee bonuses. Just not for contractors, most of which were let go this week

You guys are so hung up on defending ND that you aren't even reading this stuff.

Ebtesam · Mar 14, 2020

Blade Wolf said:
it exposes a lot of ''fans''

yeah it so sad just coz they make your best games that doesn't mean you defends their bad practice...

and now both really doing damage control and attack each other (Copper, and ND devs)

Rosebud · Mar 14, 2020

JamRock7 said:
This is actually kinda sad how hard you're trying

He's the one trying?

Jonathan took a tweet about another health problem and said "ND Crunch!!". Sounds like he's really concerned.

TheChungusAmongUs · Mar 14, 2020

Lephotographeur said:
Sorry, I don't know ND hierarchy but who is part of leadership/management of ND? Those persons have the responsibility for this and well, parent company as well.

Yes. Multiple people are accountable for this issue, but based on how long it's been going on it unfortunately seems ingrained into their process.

Dio · Mar 14, 2020

kiaaa said:
You guys are so hung up on defending ND that you aren't even reading this stuff.

it's very transparent

Rosebud said:
He's the one trying?

Jonathan took a tweet about another health problem and said "ND Crunch!!". Sounds like he's really concerned.

both him and the poster could be, at the same time.

IOTS · Mar 14, 2020

Splader said:
Truthfully, this is largely because of where I'm at in my life right now. If I was fully comfortable in a respectable profession, then I don't think I'd be as lenient. But as I'm still trying to make something of anything, when people call me out I don't take it as personally. Maybe because I agree with them a little bit? I don't know, though I do know I need to work on my self confidence.

Not my place to give advice and its true thats its easier to garner respect with more experience and a stable professional carrier.

Anya7890 · Mar 14, 2020

Naughty dog not gonna pay y'all for defending them.

Ex-Naughty Dog animator: "ND's games success is due in large part to Sony's deep pocket funding delays rather than skill alone"

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