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Crushed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,720
This is missing my favorite change, because it's something that at the time I felt like only I noticed, and it got fixed: in the original when the Normandy is trying to outrace the shockwave, Joker is in the helmsman's seat, frantically hitting controls, and he turns around as if he's looking at the blast to see how close it is to catching up. Except the Normandy isn't a sedan with a rear window, it's a like 500 foot long spaceship and the only thing Joker could be looking at is the rest of the bridge behind the helm. What the fuck is he looking at?

So I was tickled pink when I saw the EC version of that scene and he does not do that anymore.
 

ShiftyCow

Member
Nov 4, 2017
470
ME2 has one of the most interesting and mentally exciting moments of any game for me with Legion, which is the answer for why it used your armor to patch itself up.

tumblr_mumgp91CTT1qd5lw2o6_250.gifv
Interestingly enough, Legion's writer actually hated that.
Chris L'Etoile said:
The truth is that the armor was a decision imposed on me. The concept artists decided to put a hole in the geth. Then, in a moment of whimsy, they spackled a bit Shep's armor over it. Someone who got paid a lot more money than me decided that was really cool and insisted on the hole and the N7 armor. So I said, okay, Legion gets taken down when you meet it, so it can get the hole then, and weld on a piece of Shep's armor when it reactivates to represent its integration with Normandy's crew (when integrating aboard a new geth ship, it would swap memories and runtimes, not physical hardware).

But Higher Paid decided that it would be cooler if Legion were obsessed with Shepard, and stalking him. That didn't make any sense to me -- to be obsessed, you have to have emotions. The geth's whole schtick is -- to paraphrase Legion -- "We do not experience (emotions), but we understand how (they) affect you." All I could do was downplay the required "obsession" as much as I could.
source
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
You gotta wonder how many stories have been lead astray by the guy who gets paid a lot more money than you.
 

Crushed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,720
TBH I've always agreed with L'Etoile there. As much as Legion is my highlight of ME2, the "obsessed with Shepard and mere data can't convey the power of feelings" part was easily the weakest angle.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
TBH I've always agreed with L'Etoile there. As much as Legion is my highlight of ME2, the "obsessed with Shepard and mere data can't convey the power of feelings" part was easily the weakest angle.

And it doesn't even go anywhere! It's a funny little quirk that humanizes Legion, only humanizing Legion is absolutely not what the character was about.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
You gotta wonder how many stories have been lead astray by the guy who gets paid a lot more money than you.
Casey Hudson is, I'm sure, a talented person, but man. If things as reported are true, he:

1. Almost single-handedly hijacked the ending to Mass Effect 3 for J.J. Abrams-level "LOTS OF QUESTIONS"
2. Dipped out of Bioware just as Anthem development was revving up, only to come back at the last minute to play superhero (it didn't work).
3. Dropped Anthem on Bioware Austin while he moved on to playing with new toys.
4. Left Bioware again while multiple projects are in indeterminate states of development.

Like...what?
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
Interestingly enough, Legion's writer actually hated that.

source
How they handled it though is something I DO enjoy.

I know some would call it "obsession" like Legion is a fanboy or something, but I've always enjoyed the concept of something logical trying to reconcile something illogical. Call it "interest" or anything else, or even taking Legion at its word. "No data available". It can't convey something foreign to it anymore than it can something like the Geth consciousness to you adequately. It's not the same as what we know and feel, but it's something it can't rationalize, something it has no program to deal with.

More importantly, at least for that time, there wasn't a straight answer. I enjoy some GOOD speculation and ambiguity from time to time.

Casey Hudson is, I'm sure, a talented person, but man. If things as reported are true, he:

1. Almost single-handedly hijacked the ending to Mass Effect 3 for J.J. Abrams-level "LOTS OF QUESTIONS"
2. Dipped out of Bioware just as Anthem development was revving up, only to come back at the last minute to play superhero (it didn't work).
3. Dropped Anthem on Bioware Austin while he moved on to playing with new toys.
4. Left Bioware again while multiple projects are in indeterminate states of development.

Like...what?
Considering the team making the Legendary Edition credit him for really getting the ball rolling, I'll be thankful for that at least. Apparently they were pushing for it for a long time and he got it over the hump.

So fair travels, Mr. Hudson, and thanks for all the fish.
 

Smoolio

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,843
Casey Hudson is, I'm sure, a talented person, but man. If things as reported are true, he:

1. Almost single-handedly hijacked the ending to Mass Effect 3 for J.J. Abrams-level "LOTS OF QUESTIONS"
2. Dipped out of Bioware just as Anthem development was revving up, only to come back at the last minute to play superhero (it didn't work).
3. Dropped Anthem on Bioware Austin while he moved on to playing with new toys.
4. Left Bioware again while multiple projects are in indeterminate states of development.

Like...what?
Screenshot_20210209-100528_Chrome.jpg
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,838
Australia
I could very easily see the whole "Mac and Casey locked themselves in a room and wrote the ending without any outside input" as something that came about because the project was so strapped for time and resources and the rest of the team was already struggling to handle everything else as is. So they took it upon themselves to just go bang out an ending and be done with it so the team could just focus on execution. There's always a bit of arrogance to that however you slice it, but I think when presented outside of the context of how short on time ME3's development was and how down to the wire they were with so many things it makes the whole thing sound a lot more nefarious and dickish than it likely was. The idea that the head writer and EP thought they were taking a burden off the team isn't too far fetched in my mind. It was obviously a bad move for a variety of reasons, but likely coming from a place of good intentions.

It's a shame they only had those 2 years to make a game that was this important to so many people. Imagine if ME3 had been built for next-gen exclusivity for something like holiday 2014, with a remaster of the first 2 games hitting next-gen at launch a year earlier. People would have been big mad - including me - but a Mass Effect 3 with more than double the dev time built on far more powerful hardware would have been amazing.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,492
New York
It's a shame they only had those 2 years to make a game that was this important to so many people. Imagine if ME3 had been built for next-gen exclusivity for something like holiday 2014, with a remaster of the first 2 games hitting next-gen at launch a year earlier. People would have been big mad - including me - but a Mass Effect 3 with more than double the dev time built on far more powerful hardware would have been amazing.
Holiday 2012 or spring 2013 would have been enough time. Next gen would have been a big issue I think that could have hurt sales in the long run. It was important everyone had their same systems and saves with as few hinderances and issues as possible. Plus EA at that time already fucked around and pushed for DAI to be cross gen which significantly harmed that game' scope, ME would have been no different.

And really 6-12 additional months would have been an immense amount of breathing room for them vs the initial 18 months EA had budgeted them for and then ~24 months they actually got after a delay. It's crazy that they really expected them to do so much in such a short amount of time and that they were able to make as good a game that wrapped up the whole trilogy as they did. Sure there were a lot of complaint about the game besides the ending from some people, but if it wasn't for those last 20 minutes 99% of people would have come away loving the game and thinking it a masterpiece.
 

Teeth

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,940
It is a very common premise in science-fiction in general (you'd probably die of kidney failure doing a drinking game for every Space Opera series that has it) going back to Frankenstein (or if you want to go full Joe Campbell, back to ancient mythology which has recurring themes especially in Greek myths of older gods/creators growing fearful/jealous of their offspring/creations rebelling against them and usurping their authority/power over the world).

I'm not talking about the "kill your creator" similarities, cuz yeah, that's in everything. I'm more talking about the "creating an infinite number of cycles until we achieve harmony/peace/balance/whatever" with the robots/AI being the extermination force doing the killing and redoing in the end.

And our plucky protagonist is the one hero who breaks the cycle against the wishes of the AI....perfection through imperfection! Or is it even imperfection? Maybe they actually ARE the goal the AI sought, but they are too blind to see!

Now that i think some more on it...that's the overarching plot of the Matrix as well.
 

OneTrueJack

Member
Aug 30, 2020
4,647
And it doesn't even go anywhere! It's a funny little quirk that humanizes Legion, only humanizing Legion is absolutely not what the character was about.
???

The question of whether or not Legion has a soul and can be considered a real person is literally the core of the entire character. It's the only reason he's remembered.
 

OneTrueJack

Member
Aug 30, 2020
4,647
Interestingly enough, Legion's writer actually hated that.

source
This, in my opinion, is an example of the higher up being right. Legion is a far more interesting character because of the pre-existing, inexplicable focus on Shepard. It's a shame the writer apparently couldn't see that, but luckily ME3 picked up the slack and then some.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
???

The question of whether or not Legion has a soul and can be considered a real person is literally the core of the entire character. It's the only reason he's remembered.

Legion isn't a real person because "Legion" as we know it doesn't exist. It's a bunch of programs logged into a single unit and saying Legion the Geth Unit is alive because it's in front of is like trying to apply life to a favourite sweater.

Whether or not you approve of the change in direction the Geth plot went in Mass Effect 3 it is all but incompatible with what came before it.
 

OneTrueJack

Member
Aug 30, 2020
4,647
Legion isn't a real person because "Legion" as we know it doesn't exist. It's a bunch of programs logged into a single unit and saying Legion the Geth Unit is alive because it's in front of is like trying to apply life to a favourite sweater.

Whether or not you approve of the change in direction the Geth plot went in Mass Effect 3 it is all but incompatible with what came before it.
Well, the point is that the Geth which comprise Legion had evolved. They had grown beyond their programming, combining together to create something new. Something which they themselves couldn't seem to reckon with.
 

Sparks

Senior Games Artist
Verified
Dec 10, 2018
2,880
Los Angeles
I feel like the ending would have been received a lot less harshly if it was integrated into a dialogue choice of some kind. Just walking towards 3 different colors just sold it so much shorter... really empathized that you only have 3 options.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Well, the point is that the Geth which comprise Legion had evolved. They had grown beyond their programming, combining together to create something new. Something which they themselves couldn't seem to reckon with.

Yeah that's the problem. Everything that made the Geth a unique race not bound by conventional morality with their own ideas on what constituted the advancement of their species gave way to robot friends who want to be a real boy.

It's fine if you like it but it's not what Mass Effect 2 was prepping with Legion's character.
 

OneTrueJack

Member
Aug 30, 2020
4,647
Yeah that's the problem. Everything that made the Geth a unique race not bound by conventional morality with their own ideas on what constituted the advancement of their species gave way to robot friends who want to be a real boy.

It's fine if you like it but it's not what Mass Effect 2 was prepping with Legion's character.
Well, it's the case of the Geth as cannon fodder enemies VS. the Geth as allies and characters we're supposed to care about.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Well, it's the case of the Geth as cannon fodder enemies VS. the Geth as allies and characters we're supposed to care about.

We did care about Legion in Mass Effect 2. That's why it went from a party member you could sell for cash or even just throw out the airlock if you felt like it to the most important character on Rannoch.

Bioware did the same thing for Garrus. He was some dweeby cop you didn't have to bring along and you didn't even need a reason not to, then each sequel successively increases his importance.
 

OneTrueJack

Member
Aug 30, 2020
4,647
We did care about Legion in Mass Effect 2. That's why it went from a party member you could sell for cash or even just throw out the airlock if you felt like it to the most important character on Rannoch.

Bioware did the same thing for Garrus. He was some dweeby cop you didn't have to bring along and you didn't even need a reason not to, then each sequel successively increases his importance.
Yes, but even in Mass Effect 2 it was clear Legion was different. They may not have known why yet (and apparently his writer didn't really care which is disappointing), but Legion was never just a normal Geth. If he was I doubt he would have become as popular.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Yes, but even in Mass Effect 2 it was clear Legion was different. They may not have known why yet (and apparently his writer didn't really care which is disappointing), but Legion was never just a normal Geth. If he was I doubt he would have become as popular.

Legion is not "a Geth" though. Legion is not "a" anything. It's a series of runtimes in a vaguely anthropomorphic shape that swung on by because the Geth Consensus decreed it would be beneficial to team up with the guy who kills Reapers, and it was only special in the sense that it was a Geth enemy you didn't shoot at. Knowing now that the thing about finding Shepard's armour because it has a crush was implemented by someone with too much time and money on their hands explains so much of why that moment sticks out in comparison to the rest of Legion's screentime.

The Geth questioning about souls isn't meant to show they're actually alive in the same way as us, it's there because the fact that they can even ask that question in the first place is an indicator they've developed sentience, and consequently the Geth strive to find meaning in an existence that can answer "how was I made?" down to what office their code was programmed in. They aren't like us and they don't have to be, their goal was to find their answer.

Mass Effect 3 decided that answer was feeling emotion and referring to themselves as 'I' instead of 'we' or whatever, and that's fine, that's crowd pleasing, it's just not what what was intended for Legion in Mass Effect 2.
 

OneTrueJack

Member
Aug 30, 2020
4,647
Legion is not "a Geth" though. Legion is not "a" anything. It's a series of runtimes in a vaguely anthropomorphic shape that swung on by because the Geth Consensus decreed it would be beneficial to team up with the guy who kills Reapers, and it was only special in the sense that it was a Geth enemy you didn't shoot at. Knowing now that the thing about finding Shepard's armour because it has a crush was implemented by someone with too much time and money on their hands explains so much of why that moment sticks out in comparison to the rest of Legion's screentime.

The Geth questioning about souls isn't meant to show they're actually alive in the same way as us, it's there because the fact that they can even ask that question in the first place is an indicator they've developed sentience, and consequently the Geth strive to find meaning in an existence that can answer "how was I made?" down to what office their code was programmed in. They aren't like us and they don't have to be, their goal was to find their answer.

Mass Effect 3 decided that answer was feeling emotion and referring to themselves as 'I' instead of 'we' or whatever, and that's fine, that's crowd pleasing, it's just not what what was intended for Legion in Mass Effect 2.
I think you're putting a lot of stock into authorial intent, which is fine but not really my thing. I prefer to focus on what ends up on the screen/page regardless of intent, and as far as I'm concerned even in ME2 Legion was displaying subtle hints of emotional awareness and individuality.
 
OP
OP
Samiya

Samiya

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 30, 2019
4,811
I was reminded of Anthem just now and I cannot for the life of me understand how EA only gave 2 years for Bioware to develop ME3 and then subsequently, allowed them to do Anthem for at least 6 whole years. I don't get it.
 

Tovarisc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,440
FIN
Casey Hudson is, I'm sure, a talented person, but man. If things as reported are true, he:

1. Almost single-handedly hijacked the ending to Mass Effect 3 for J.J. Abrams-level "LOTS OF QUESTIONS"
2. Dipped out of Bioware just as Anthem development was revving up, only to come back at the last minute to play superhero (it didn't work).
3. Dropped Anthem on Bioware Austin while he moved on to playing with new toys.
4. Left Bioware again while multiple projects are in indeterminate states of development.

Like...what?

Watch him swoop back in during last stretches of next Mass Effect to "save the day / give that magical touch".
 

rafox

Member
Apr 28, 2020
501
Organics vs. Synthetics as a major overarching theme across the trilogy is very clearly a lie and only started mattering when that one Reaper on Rannoch said "you'll always kill each other" and Shepard goes "nuh uh." It's there for the Geth and Quarians because it's a future sci-fi game and by now somebody would have made some dang robots, and consequently you get to build them up an entire game as mooks before introducing Legion, a character entirely built out of worldbuilding, but there's a reason everyone really likes Legion but had a really hard time accepting the rationality of a cause driven by synthetic life killing organics because eventually they build synthetics that kill them.

Like you think when Sovereign woke up and saw that the entire galaxy enacted strict laws to make sure no one made AIs ever again he'd nod off content at a job well done.



There's a fine line between an ending open to interpretation and an ending that accidentally infers to the audience that all galactic civilization is fucked and every single person who came to Earth to fight with you is now going to starve to death.
So what if everybody is fucked? The cycle ended, future civilizations will rise without interference, it wasn't about the current civilization, the goal was much bigger.
I don't see why the creators choosing a hard life for their characters is a bad thing, are you mad at Vince Gilligan for what they did to Jesse Pinkman?
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,669
So what if everybody is fucked? The cycle ended, future civilizations will rise without interference, it wasn't about the current civilization, the goal was much bigger.
I don't see why the creators choosing a hard life for their characters is a bad thing, are you mad at Vince Gilligan for what they did to Jesse Pinkman?
It renders the massive deflection of 'the entire game is the ending!' a moot argument. When the game ends with a galaxy-ending event which dooms galactic exploration, it renders all of the decisions you've made irrelevant because no matter what you chose the outcome is identical. In its original form, regardless of what you chose or what level of galactic readiness you had, the net result is identical because of the destruction of the relays and the consequential galactic genocide to occur in a galaxy solely dependant on the relays which poorly understand them (particularly when isolated pockets of the galaxy would need to independently discover how they function, and set them up in a way to connect) something which would take literal millennia given the constraints (e.g. resource suffocation, the end of communication between solar systems) imposed without them. What difference does it make if the Genophage is cured or the Geth/Quarians are united when all are doomed immediately after anyway?

While yes, it's totally fine for a story to end in a bleak manner, In a franchise which heavily marketed itself on the impact of choice (still highlighted by the devs in the interviews in the OP) an ending which not only invalidates all previous choices but which you're forced into that thematically betrays the series to date (e.g. making 'synthetics vs organics' a central conflict when the only presence of that was the Reapers' themselves given that the Geth situation can be resolved) and contains an incredibly lazy deus ex machina (not even just the existence of the crucible, but the space magic it operates under) that dooms the galaxy, it's pretty natural to think there's a big difference between having just a grim ending, and the shoddily constructed ending that was delivered (which they quickly walked back on as they clearly hadn't actually thought through the consequential genocide and millennia required for civilization not to have ended).
 
Last edited:

BiohunterX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
761
i remember when i first beat the game. I was like "ok that was bad but the game was still fun" and went in for another playthrough. I rememeber just getting madder and madder very quickly seeing just how much was rushed, how much was hand waved, how unsatisfied i was with the story as a whole. the ending was just the icing on the RGB cupcake
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
So what if everybody is fucked? The cycle ended, future civilizations will rise without interference, it wasn't about the current civilization, the goal was much bigger.
I don't see why the creators choosing a hard life for their characters is a bad thing, are you mad at Vince Gilligan for what they did to Jesse Pinkman?

Whether or not you liked the ending it's a tall order to ask an audience of millions of players to automatically accept an abrupt CG cutscene, following a rewrite of everything we know about the Reapers that has nothing to do with the rest of the game's themes, wherein everyone probably dies because of what you just did and you didn't just kill everyone but destroyed the means by which the galaxy operates, but it's okay because in another 50,000 years Buzz Aldrin can be a bad voice actor.

I get what you're saying, that broadly speaking the characters died but their goals were achieved. This is a fine way to conclude a war story against an apocalyptic threat, but Mass Effect has always been a character focus story and then the ending removes the focus on them. The Extended Cut (keeping the broad strokes canon while also elaborating on the choices you've made) was a response to this and satisfied most people because, hey, turns out Mass Effect is driven by its characters, but you'd never get something like the Happy Ending Mod for a game that didn't totally drop the ball right at the end.
 

rafox

Member
Apr 28, 2020
501
It renders the massive deflection of 'the entire game is the ending!' a moot argument. When the game ends with a galaxy-ending event which dooms galactic exploration, it renders all of the decisions you've made irrelevant because no matter what you chose the outcome is identical. In its original form, regardless of what you chose or what level of galactic readiness you had, the net result is identical because of the destruction of the relays and the consequential galactic genocide to occur in a galaxy solely dependant on the relays which poorly understand them (particularly when isolated pockets of the galaxy would need to independently discover how they function, and set them up in a way to connect) something which would take literal millennia given the constraints (e.g. resource suffocation, the end of communication between solar systems) imposed without them. What difference does it make if the Genophage is cured or the Geth/Quarians are united when all are doomed immediately after anyway?

While yes, it's totally fine for a story to end in a bleak manner, In a franchise which heavily marketed itself on the impact of choice (still highlighted by the devs in the interviews in the OP) an ending which not only invalidates all previous choices but which you're forced into that thematically betrays the series to date (e.g. making 'synthetics vs organics' a central conflict when the only presence of that was the Reapers' themselves given that the Geth situation can be resolved) and contains an incredibly lazy deus ex machina (not even just the existence of the crucible, but the space magic it operates under) that dooms the galaxy, it's pretty natural to think there's a big difference between having just a grim ending, and the shoddily constructed ending that was delivered (which they quickly walked back on as they clearly hadn't actually thought through the consequential genocide and millennia required for civilization not to have ended).

It's bitter sweet but it's not out of the blue.
The whole game builds up to that, you even get the chance to say goodbye to your friends before the final mission, the game wants us to know that death is the end. Everyone currently is fucked, yes, I believe it was deliberate, it was about ending the cycle for the future generations, even if this one is fucked, the stargazer post credit scene reinforces that.
And the crucible is not a Deus Ex Machina, it's activation is the premise of the game, it doens't appear out of nowhere to save the day in the end. In fact, it doens't even work. The Reaper inteligence alows the crucible to work because you united the galaxy and proved the Reaper solution is wrong, basically.
The Crucible funcionality not being explained was also deliberate and it was brought up by multiple characters throughout the game, it was done that way to highlight how much of a gamble it was! No one actually knew if this thing was going to work.
Being bittersweet or bleak, however you'd like to call it doens't invalidate every action you took is those games, specially in the third one, where uniting the galaxy, quarians and geth, the krogans etc is actually what led to the crucible being built and the final assault being possible and the cycle ending!
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,811
Yes, but even in Mass Effect 2 it was clear Legion was different. They may not have known why yet (and apparently his writer didn't really care which is disappointing), but Legion was never just a normal Geth. If he was I doubt he would have become as popular.
Yeah, the whole point of introducing Legion was to show a side of the Geth we did not know. Mass Effect 2 explains a part of their collective splintered off to follow the Reapers. That is a clear indication of an "emotional decision" so to speak, and Mass Effect 1 even shows them revering the Reapers in religious fashion. The blurred lines were present from the beginning of the trilogy.

I was reminded of Anthem just now and I cannot for the life of me understand how EA only gave 2 years for Bioware to develop ME3 and then subsequently, allowed them to do Anthem for at least 6 whole years. I don't get it.
It's likely EA wanted to strike the iron while it was hot. It was much like their decision to have Dragon Age 2 developed in around 14-16 months. EA has clearly changed their attitude in regards to this since, Dragon Age: Inquisition spent 4 years in development, and Mass Effect: Andromeda took five years.
 

rafox

Member
Apr 28, 2020
501
Whether or not you liked the ending it's a tall order to ask an audience of millions of players to automatically accept an abrupt CG cutscene, following a rewrite of everything we know about the Reapers that has nothing to do with the rest of the game's themes, wherein everyone probably dies because of what you just did and you didn't just kill everyone but destroyed the means by which the galaxy operates, but it's okay because in another 50,000 years Buzz Aldrin can be a bad voice actor.

I get what you're saying, that broadly speaking the characters died but their goals were achieved. This is a fine way to conclude a war story against an apocalyptic threat, but Mass Effect has always been a character focus story and then the ending removes the focus on them. The Extended Cut (keeping the broad strokes canon while also elaborating on the choices you've made) was a response to this and satisfied most people because, hey, turns out Mass Effect is driven by its characters, but you'd never get something like the Happy Ending Mod for a game that didn't totally drop the ball right at the end.

About the "abrupt" ending, I get it's a lot of information for the player to take in and an epilogue certainly helps with that. I actually prefer the original ending without the epilogue for stylistic reasons and because the information on the epilogues are irrelevant, I was fine without those infos. But it does add more meaninful dialogue and the overall presentation of facts is more palatable.
Thematically speaking, I don't see how it betrays ME themes, in fact, the entirety of 3 was build towards that ending, that whole thing I alredy said in a previous response about unity and how that ultimately saves the day and breaks the cycle, even if it means that people on the current cycle are screwed.
The game is still about character. I guess people wanted suicide mission part 2? 3 takes a different approach where you actually say goodbye to your friends before the battle because you were probably going to fail, and you almost do - so does your crewmates, they either die or Normandy rescues them before Sheppard goes to the Citadel.
But they were essential in your journey throughout the game and had meaningul character arcs and when you say goodbye to them is heartbreaking.
I guess for you they had to be involved in the final conversation with the Reaper for it to matter? What about everything they did in the game?
Anyway, you're right about Buzz Aldrin (but I liked it)
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,669
It's bitter sweet but it's not out of the blue.
The whole game builds up to that, you even get the chance to say goodbye to your friends before the final mission, the game wants us to know that death is the end. Everyone currently is fucked, yes, I believe it was deliberate, it was about ending the cycle for the future generations, even if this one is fucked, the stargazer post credit scene reinforces that.

And the crucible is not a Deus Ex Machina, it's activation is the premise of the game, it doens't appear out of nowhere to save the day in the end. In fact, it doens't even work. The Reaper inteligence alows the crucible to work because you united the galaxy and proved the Reaper solution is wrong, basically.

The Crucible funcionality not being explained was also deliberate and it was brought up by multiple characters throughout the game, it was done that way to highlight how much of a gamble it was! No one actually knew if this thing was going to work.
Being bittersweet or bleak, however you'd like to call it doens't invalidate every action you took is those games, specially in the third one, where uniting the galaxy, quarians and geth, the krogans etc is actually what led to the crucible being built and the final assault being possible and the cycle ending!
I very much disagree; the fact that the Extended Cut largely walked back on the consequences of what the original ending portrayed makes it very clear that the galactic ruin of using the crucible was absolutely not an intended consequence, and that it was never intended for the activation of the crucible to doom the current galactic civilisations. The post-credit stargazer scene also makes it clear that there was not the intention to disable galactic travel and doom the current civilization (the Tsoni archive being passed down in the extended cut resulting in the cycle surviving reaffirms that it was not intended to doom the current cycle).

The underlined falls apart when the consequence is the same regardless of what actions are taken. Each ending, regardless of whether you've united the galaxy or consistently made the 'worst' choices, results in exactly the same galactic doom. Nothing you've done throughout the series has any influence on the fact that in the series' final moments Shepard makes the isolated decision to end galactic civilization and doom the currently cycle without so much as a thought against or oppositional argument for doing so.

On the bolded, it absolutely is a deus ex machina when the Crucible introduces space magic in the final act, abruptly shoehorns an explanation of the reapers which runs in direct opposition to the themes of the trilogy (which Shepard just accepts), and offers three totally different pieces of functionality (which, again are nonsensical options; there's nothing 'built up' in the series for a weapon that can merge organic and synthetic DNA or why this would suddenly create galactic unity) for no logical reason accept to have three colour-coded endings.

EDIT: And, I don't know how you can disagree with that honestly, taken tliterally from the creative team:
"The ending relies on space magic, and the lead writer, lead gameplay designer, and executive producer all just embraced that and owned it from the get-go,"
 
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Jegriva

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Sep 23, 2019
5,519
Yeah, "We can work together despite our differences" is for me the most important theme of ME. And none of the endings represent that.

Choosing between different endings that represent different values could have been cool. But they don't. The endings we get are all authoritarian.

You either sacrifice the geth (and all synthetics) for the greater good
or you become a god-dictator over the galaxy
Or synthesis, which is painted as positive, but is actually the antithesis of ME's celebration of diversity. We can overcome our differences? Forget that, everybody has to become the same to achieve peace
But Joker can finally bone Sexbot! /S

I would like to know if that weird angle was Walters' or Hudson's idea.
 

Weiss

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Oct 25, 2017
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About the "abrupt" ending, I get it's a lot of information for the player to take in and an epilogue certainly helps with that. I actually prefer the original ending without the epilogue for stylistic reasons and because the information on the epilogues are irrelevant, I was fine without those infos. But it does add more meaninful dialogue and the overall presentation of facts is more palatable.
Thematically speaking, I don't see how it betrays ME themes, in fact, the entirety of 3 was build towards that ending, that whole thing I alredy said in a previous response about unity and how that ultimately saves the day and breaks the cycle, even if it means that people on the current cycle are screwed.
The game is still about character. I guess people wanted suicide mission part 2? 3 takes a different approach where you actually say goodbye to your friends before the battle because you were probably going to fail, and you almost do - so does your crewmates, they either die or Normandy rescues them before Sheppard goes to the Citadel.
But they were essential in your journey throughout the game and had meaningul character arcs and when you say goodbye to them is heartbreaking.
I guess for you they had to be involved in the final conversation with the Reaper for it to matter? What about everything they did in the game?
Anyway, you're right about Buzz Aldrin (but I liked it)

Here is how I see writing a Bad End, which I define not as a badly written ending, but as an ending where things end badly on at least some major level.

We think of Bad Ends as the thing the heroes are trying to prevent and what would happen if they sat around doing nothing. The Bad End isn't something that can happen, it's that it will happen if not for the heroes. If Shepard doesn't use the Kill All Reapers button then they'll get a Bad End where the Reapers win.

I think this sounds true, and then I came up with a meaninglessly fluffed up esoteric take to make myself seem smarter: The Bad End only happens when the writer allows it, because every action in their universe is controlled by them and if they felt like it they could have the villain slip on a banana peel and die. Writing an ending where good triumphs over evil is magnitudes harder because you need to carefully detail why the upstart rebellion lead by the long lost prince can now take on the rampaging hordes of Emperor Deathmeciatus even though he controls the world, and when he's defeated through the power of friendship you need to explain why and how it worked this time and failed all others. There's no reason the writer can't just draw a straight line for the forces of good to the villain's doom fortress then load them up into a sedan and send them off, maybe stopping for a snack on the way, except the big one: that makes for a boring story. We're not here for the destination, we're here to go on a journey.

Bad Ends are not something that work because they're gutsy and lead to lots of speculation from everyone, Bad Ends are the culmination of the message the writer is trying to convey in creating a story that leads to an ending at the expense of the heroes. They have to matter, to be thematically consistent, to be a natural conclusion to the preceding events, and they have to do all of these so well to overcome the vitriol of a fanbase who get attached to characters and their struggles more than what the writer is trying to say through them. You brought up Breaking Bad, a series wherein a man is dying from cancer in front of an uncaring health care system, turns to cooking meth to care for his family after he's gone, and then gradually realizes he's an asshole addicted to his newfound power and wealth. How else did you think it was going to end? Walter's fall from grace was not just the result of actions, it was what the show was about to begin with.

Mass Effect as a story, boiling it down as simplistically as possible, is about different cultures banding together and overcoming past grievances in the face of an impossible adversary who wants to convert all life into one of them, and the ending to this story involves a single person having a five minute conversation with the singular ruling authority of their enemy, and then deciding what the future of the galaxy should be with no input from anyone else, and this action as originally depicted should have wiped out all life in the galaxy since ME2 tells us blowing up a Mass Relay causes a massive explosion that wipes out the surrounding star system and Shepard just blew up all them, so what Shepard just decided is pointless either way.

The original ending to Mass Effect 3 only lands if the only thing one cares about is if it "makes sense." Sure, it "makes sense" that fighting eldritch death robots is probably impossible and that it would require massive amounts of sacrifice (sacrifices that Shepard is unwilling to make even in ME3 itself since their quest involves rallying support for Earth instead of letting it burn so the rest of the galaxy can figure out a plan), but the problem is that everything the ending is trying to convey wasn't what Mass Effect was ever about.
 
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Weiss

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Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Actually now that I think about it what the fuck was Shepard going to do if the Citadel wasn't moved directly over Earth as the Crucible was finished? The whole game is about Shepard's fight to "take back Earth" and building a galactic alliance where every major leader says something like "you've solved our history's longest standing conflict, we'll send you support for Earth."

If they repelled the Reapers from Earth does Shepard retire satisfied at a job well done? Can a planet even successfully be retaken in a war against an enemy only motivated by killing every single one of you? If the Reapers moved the Citadel above Palaven would everyone be gearing up for the final battle while Shepard stands off to the side complaining that, come on, guys, you said you'd all chip in for Earth?

No one brought up how earth was a shitty mission where they had the dumb turret section.

That was so weird.

Who thought the sequence where you say goodbye to your party members as you prepare for your final mission needed to be broken up with shooting zombies for 30 seconds?
 
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Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,811
This is missing my favorite change, because it's something that at the time I felt like only I noticed, and it got fixed: in the original when the Normandy is trying to outrace the shockwave, Joker is in the helmsman's seat, frantically hitting controls, and he turns around as if he's looking at the blast to see how close it is to catching up. Except the Normandy isn't a sedan with a rear window, it's a like 500 foot long spaceship and the only thing Joker could be looking at is the rest of the bridge behind the helm. What the fuck is he looking at?

So I was tickled pink when I saw the EC version of that scene and he does not do that anymore.
Bolded part gave me a good laugh. Joker still does that in the bad Destroy ending, so I suppose he's not really looking at the shockwave, but rather looking at the rest of the ship, indeed, since it's going up in flames. The Normandy was damaged in all original endings, with sparks coming out of the the consoles, fire, etc. In the Extended Cut, that only happens during bad Destroy, so I think he really is just checking the ship.
 

Weiss

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I mean I remember how wrong it is, sure

I mean.

The Catalyst probably thinks melting down entire species into goo and pumping them into a big robot isn't really killing anybody, but one I'd like a second opinion on that and two the Reapers kill a whole lot of people along the way in their quest to prevent us from building synthetics that will kill us.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,028
Casey Hudson is, I'm sure, a talented person, but man. If things as reported are true, he:

1. Almost single-handedly hijacked the ending to Mass Effect 3 for J.J. Abrams-level "LOTS OF QUESTIONS"
2. Dipped out of Bioware just as Anthem development was revving up, only to come back at the last minute to play superhero (it didn't work).
3. Dropped Anthem on Bioware Austin while he moved on to playing with new toys.
4. Left Bioware again while multiple projects are in indeterminate states of development.

Like...what?

Besides #1, I don't see how the rest are his fault.

2 & 3. Reports indicated that Anthem was chosen collectively from several pitches made internally within the studio. And the best time to leave a project is right at the start since it would cause minimal disruption. Mike Laidlaw did the same thing with the DA4, he basically left after the first reboot as it would cause minimal disruption. When he returned Anthem was already about to be shipped, its not like he can scrap everything they had been doing for years and reboot it from the ground up. He could only make sure it shipped competently enough.
4. Again, not sure why this is something bad. We don't really know why he left, but all the projects BioWare are working on are in early stages of development. So, again, him leaving now would cause less disruption than leaving mid-way into full production. Further, Casey was the General Manager for BioWare when he left. He wasn't a developer. He wasn't personally developing these projects. So, its not like his absence would affect development that much. Hell, for all we know he left because he wanted to get back to actual development.

I mean I remember how wrong it is, sure

I mean, its 100% factual.
 

Ralemont

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Jan 3, 2018
4,508
I mean.

The Catalyst probably thinks melting down entire species into goo and pumping them into a big robot isn't really killing anybody, but one I'd like a second opinion on that and two the Reapers kill a whole lot of people along the way in their quest to prevent us from building synthetics that will kill us.

Yep and we were that second opinion. The EC actually bothers to add Shepard arguing this exact point ("we'd prefer to keep our own forms!"). Clearly at this point the Catalyst's methods aren't supposed to be justified, however muddied that was in the vanilla endings.

As for two, obviously this is immaterial to the Catalyst's reasoning when it's concerned about species preservation, not individual preservation.

Anyway when I say the meme is wrong, it's like...it might be good for a chuckle but it's obviously misrepresenting the Catalyst's logic. We don't think think being Reaper-ified counts as living, it does. Hence the disagreement about the cycles. And hence one of the principle failings of the original ending being the (intentional or not) suggestion by the writing that the Catalyst is the word of god and we should agree with it.

I mean, its 100% factual.

It's supposed to suggest the Catalyst's logic is invalid, but it misrepresents what the actual logic is. It's a dumb meme that's supposed to elicit a chuckle yet some wield it like a logical counterproof. Like there are lots of way smarter things to say against the ending.
 

BossAttack

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Oct 27, 2017
43,028
It's supposed to suggest the Catalyst's logic is invalid, but it misrepresents what the actual logic is. It's a dumb meme that's supposed to elicit a chuckle yet some wield it like a logical counterproof. Like there are lots of way smarter things to say against the ending.

Its a reductive take on the Catalyst's Logic that is entirely accurate, yet misses certain context. Its funny because even with the added context the logic of the Catalyst still makes no sense. Any way you slice it, the Catalyst is killing organics to prevent them from being killed by synthetics.
 
Feb 5, 2018
2,945
With ME4 on the horizon and from the little tidbits we have from that teaser, the Destroy Ending has to be the canon one right? None of the others make sense.

At this point in "fine" with that decision, so as long as they smartly write a means to continue and create a new and interesting story. If ME4 is going to make ME3 not feel like the end, it might turn out the ending could be better retroactively.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
Its a reductive take on the Catalyst's Logic that is entirely accurate, yet misses certain context. Its funny because even with the added context the logic of the Catalyst still makes no sense. Any way you slice it, the Catalyst is killing organics to prevent them from being killed by synthetics.

It is not accurate from the Catalyst's perspective. I was disappointed back in 2012 when this meme became one of the central points of focus because you aren't SUPPOSED to agree with the antagonist.

Like yes congratulations meme you have discovered why the Milky Way races and the Catalyst don't see eye to eye.

With ME4 on the horizon and from the little tidbits we have from that teaser, the Destroy Ending has to be the canon one right? None of the others make sense.

Has to be with the dead Reapers being shown on that snow planet. Both practically (Synthesis and Control wouldn't have dead Reapers laying around) and thematically (there's a reason to put that imagery in your trailer).

Which is why I'm a bit confused if they really aren't touching the endings, but I guess they could always go with "your ending in the trilogy is canon no matter what, but here's ME4 IF you chose Destroy." Kinda like Nier coming from one Drakengard ending.