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Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,356
The thing that legitimately bothered me (enough to consider it a shortcoming of imagination, writing, and yes, even talent) was that the original ending didn't allow the player to stand back and say, "I'm confident in the choices and preparation we've done, let's let this play out." They added something closer to that in the later patch, but at that point, the "damage" was done for me in terms of losing faith in the storyteller, and there was no substance to how it then played out. Anyone claiming "there was no way to end this well" isn't thinking like a writer, and isn't using the tiniest bit of thought in terms of how they could have made a number of totally different endings. There were certainly better alternatives than making what amounts to one ending with three skins, with barely any thematic or narrative connections to the series.

The mistakes in the novel (Deception) released before ME3 contributed to that, too. It's hard for me to think of a series that made more basic mistakes stemming from being unfamiliar with the subject matter than Mass Effect.
 
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Jan 29, 2018
9,388
They should've abandoned the trilogy plan and just made sequels to Mass Effect 2 for ten years. Each one a new set of episodic quests bookended by a loose narrative. The loyalty missions in 2 were the best part of the trilogy.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
They built Harbinger up, mention him several times throughout ME3 and then he shows up for 30 seconds.

Absolute travesty.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,138
Still the thing that killed my entire investment in the franchise. In retrospect it made me dodge the bullet that was Andromeda though.

I still think the new Mass Effect is probably going to blow if it has to respect that mess of an ending or it as to choose a canon. If it doesn't and owns it would be a God of War level of reversing my feelings. Best of luck to them but I'm not going to hold my breath.
 
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braisbr1

Member
Oct 4, 2019
148
I know at this point the dead horse is a fine horse paste, but the ending of ME3 is the most disappointed I have ever felt upon completion of a video game. I really thought I had gotten the bad ending somehow, until I saw the online backlash and realized it didn't even really matter. Mass Effect is one of my all time favorite series, and the ending didn't just make it really hard for me to revisit (I have never replayed ME3 despite playing ME1 and 2 multiple times), it's made me not even really think much about the series I was once obsessed with since it came out.
I feel exactly the same way, thanks for putting this out there.
 

Hogger

Member
Nov 18, 2017
1,292
Devs aren't perfect. Teams creating a project aren't perfect. Sometimes, they just fail. The Mass Effect ending is a perfect example. Unfortunately, it soiled the series. It seemed like the fans loved Mass Effect more than the Bioware brass at that point. If this wasn't the case, that ending isn't released.
 

Yabberwocky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,256
I can never, ever get over Hudson and Walters writing the ending in isolation from the rest of the team, I can't get over how egotistical that is. At the end of the day, whilst you absolutely need a lead writer to make the final choice/push the story direction of a game, but working in isolation without deferring or getting input from anyone else is a recipe for disaster in a case like this, not even taking to account that ME3's ending was the finale of a behemoth beloved trilogy.

(It also brings me joy that if Mass Effect was run like the Navy, Dragon Age was run like a pirate ship, lol. Amazing.)

Whilst ME3 is my least favorite of the trilogy, the gameplay is great, and there are so many memorable missions that I still really enjoy replaying, along with the Leviathan and Citadel DLCs. For the base game, I loved: Mars with Liara/Virmire Survivor, Citadel with Thane, Grissom Academy with Jack, everything with Tuchanka, the trippy mission to disable the Geth Fighter Squadrons, everything with Rannoch, storming Cerberus Headquarters, plus the final assault on Earth. Whilst going through a destroyed Citadel was memorably creepy, the game completely came apart at the seams with the last minute Catalyst twist that upends the entire trilogy and is actively contradictory. Also, 'hey, it turns out our main thematic exploration all along was organics vs. synthetics, didn't you realize? Duh!' annoyed the hell out of me. Uh, since when? It was a part of the Geth/Quarian story thread, but the xenophobia between different races and learning to work together for the greater good was the primary focus of all three games. I don't want to romanticize an ending that doesn't exist, but I would have taken the hypothetical Dark Energy plot for the ending, because there had at least been some set up in previous games and there was some logic for it, instead of a twist from nowhere in the last few minutes of the damn game.

I also have no problem with my both my Shepards being canonically dead (I love a bittersweet ending), but everything to do with the Catalyst... blargh. The only way I can make some sense of the Catalyst is to go with the Indoctrination Theory, which absolutely isn't canon, but ironically gives the ending some logic, lol.

End of the day I would say it was a case where keeping it simple and straightforward was the best option. That holds true for how the Reapers were defeated, their origins and their motivations. Trying to be clever and shocking is not the way to go in the final minutes of your giant 3 part space epic. Doesn't mean you need a feel good ending, but they could have had one single ending that had minor variances depending on our choices up to that point. Nothing fancy, no big reveal, just this is how it ends and some people appear or don't appear based on what you did leading up. Thanks for saving the galaxy.

Original ending was like swallowing broken glass, EC was just a nice sugar coating that made it far less painful but all the prickly bits and cutting edges were still there.

Excellently put, especially the bolded.

The thing about the ending that always gets me is that they thought the fans needed a big decision right at the very end. I don't think anyone would be upset if the game could end only two ways: you either destroy the Reapers or they destroy you. It was far more important to people that their decisions played out like the Suicide Mission during Priority: Earth.

They tried to pull off a last-minute twist with some philosophical questioning and made that such a big deal, and most people were not here for it.

Also very true.

Control and Synthesis are dumb. They're the Illusive Man's and Saren's goals and both admit to you that they're really indoctrinated before shooting themselves in the head. Pure idiocy.

This!

Say what people will about, "Endings are hard" or, "It was an impossible task to wrap everything up", etc; the greatest sin of ME3 is that the writing doesn't respect its own fiction.

Control, the theoretical "paragon" ending is represented by a character the writers wanted you to hate. A monster in a literal and figurative sense. ME 1 and 2 spent countless hours telling you that no one can control the Reapers and everyone stupid enough to think they're different ends up under their control. BUT THIS TIME WILL BE DIFFERENT BECAUSE SPACE MAGIC. Yeah, ok. Blue good, so I guess that's the heroic thing to do? Makes no sense at all. Ignores the well-laid fiction.

Destroy, the renegade choice is represented my a character who has proven trustworthy the whole game. A friend and confidant who would gladly die for you. Certainly seems like the more trustworthy person to follow. Your choice will destroy the whole system of galactic civilization, but let's remember, that was a system set in place to support the Reapers. And it really should be the only option, right? The Reapers are so advanced that we can barely scratch them with our strongest weapons! Well, that's what ME1 and 2 led you to believe anyway. Apparently we're fight a war, and even winning sometimes, against these unkillable enemies now. Even giant terrestrial space worms can kill them. So apparently it isn't really our only option. There's a Galactic Readiness bar that suggests it isn't in fact futile? But you know, fuck it. The Reapers have got to go as they will literally kill everyone. Honestly, this is a "hard decision" but at least in the context of ME1 and 2, it seems like a logical decision.

Mergers and acquisitions, whatever the hell, green is second dumbest of the options. Organic and Synthetic life cannot coexist! It's been proven! *Side eyes the whole Quarian-Geth conflict you've finally resolved after a 3 game arc.* Finally! Peace forever! Apparently the Reapers are going to be totally fine with this arrangement, or maybe they have organic empathetic hearts now. Or maybe they die? Who knows! We've got glowy circuits on our skin now! Why would we ever have conflicts ever again? It's not like history, or culture, or anything could ever create enormous rifts that will lead to war again between formerly organic and synthetic lifeforms again. Also, hope you're cool with the change because I didn't ask! There is no scaffolding anywhere in the universe to support a decision like this, "But it's something different!" you cry, and yet, that does not make it better or more logical.

Walk away, a highly respective choice in my opinion, at least gives the player autonomy over their decisions. It's a nice way of saying, "None of this makes sense and I hope someday some better writers will play the first two games and sort it out."

The only thing I can imagine to this day about the ending of ME3 is that it was largely written in a vacuum by people who had not played the first two games extensively. They just exist in totally different worlds of logic. I could have been fine with an ending that I didn't like, but what we got were endings that mostly didn't make any sense, and that's unforgivable for the series.

So true. I go with Destroy, even though you pointed out the very valid contradictory plot holes with it.

Its not uncommon for writers to not exactly know where things will end when they start. Thats perfectly fine tbh. This is especially common in television -- Twin Peaks and Breaking Bad come to mind in particular for shows I love.

Breaking Bad writers rather famously set up some flash forwards of the final episode without having a clue what the ending would be and how they would get there. They were very upfront about going with the flow, with the exception of Season 2 which was more planned beat by beat (and IMO, the weakest and most contrived due to this). Lynch never even intended to solve the central mystery of Twin Peaks, there was not even an idea of an ending, this was irrelevant at conception. Network execs forced them to solve it, Lynch got bored and left, and the last half of season 2 was mess. Season 3 was an triumph, but thats another story.

This style of writing typically follows the characters and tries to give them natural beats flowing from one thing to next. When you don't know where you are going, and you don't understand your characters, then you run into trouble

Also an great point -- you don't always know the ending when you start writing something. I always think it isn't ideal (hi, Star Wars sequels), but it can work very well in the right hands, like with Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. Following on from what you said, this kind of writing works brilliantly when it supported by a writer or a team that know the characters very well, and are letting the characters drive the plot, as opposed to the reverse (hi, ending of Game of Thrones!).
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,099
There was absolutely no way to end this trilogy in a truly satisfying way though there were probably/definitely better ways to do so than what we actually got.

The fact of the matter is that the only realistic way to end the series without resorting to deus ex machina-like contrivances would have been for the Reapers to win.

I don't actually agree here. I think that they had already laid out an explanation for how there could have been some form of victory over the Reapers, or at least had a path to a place where introducing something new that could result in victory would not have seemed so out of place.

Things that the current cycle have, that previous cycles didn't:

  • Advance warning. The species of the galaxy know they're coming (Could have retconned the council in ME2 has actually secretly believing it, but refusing to cooperate with Shepard publicly because he was working with Cerberus. This isn't crazy when you consider they did something similar with the Andromeda Initiative in ME:A)
  • The Citadel. Normally the Citadel / center of galactic civilization was struck first with no warning and immedialy paralysed them.
  • A functional Mass Relay network. Liara disabled the "off-switch" that Reapers normally use to paralyze interstellar travel via the relays during their invasion.
  • Scans of, or possibly an intact Collector Base. This base used Prothean and Reaper technology. We get scans at minimum, and possibly an intact base for Cerberus if you chose that option.
  • Reverse engineered Reaper main guns. This is the "Thanix Gun" upgrade from ME2, which the Turians developed. It gave cruiser tier firepower to a frigate, and had begun mass producion as of ME2 in the Turian fleets. That means if you scaled it up to Dreadnought size, you'd have a gun that was far more powerful than anything the Citadel races previously had.

Now, I'm not saying a direct standup fight with giant fleets should have resulted in a Citadel victory. But I do think that these are very big advantages compared to previous cycles. The concentrated Citadel fleet in ME1 managed to kill a Reaper. What if those fleets were several times more powerful? They could take on some reapers right, especially if not every Reaper was as big and powerful as Sovereign! ME3 already showed that actually Sovereign and Harbinger were among the biggest Reapers and there were many smaller ones.

On the old bioware social forums, I theorized (long before ME3 or even Arrival DLC had come out) that there could have been a very very good reason why the Reapers didn't just fly back. We know that darkspace is the galactic void, and that conventional FTL drives build up drive charge they can't get rid of, so it wouldn't be implausible if the distances were so vast that they couldn't meaningfully get back without some kind of rejiggering. After all, they never planned on not having the Citadel as a back door. So what if a bunch of Reapers had to pool their drive cores into half or 1/3 of the fleet, and then those Reapers could fly back, and their goal would be to reopen the Citadel so they could bring the rest of the fleet back in? It would be an explanation here for why they chose to wait 1000 years after the Rachni wars, and then another few years after Sovereign died before they said "lol fuck it" and flew back, because without that, they were actually quite vulnerable.

If the Reapers were not at full strength because half or 2/3 of them had to stay behind in Darkspace, and the milky way species already has all these big new advantages, is victory implausible? It wouldn't feel like an asspull, at least. You would still be facing a very very powerful force, and you would still need to unite the Galaxy against it, while opportunistic civilizations take advantage of the chaos just as they did in the real ME3.
 

BionicDreamer

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,510
I didn't have any big problems with the ending, more that I wanted it to be based on the choices I had made prior to getting there.
 

TC McQueen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,592
I would have taken the hypothetical Dark Energy plot for the ending, because there had at least been some set up in previous games and there was some logic for it, instead of a twist from nowhere in the last few minutes of the damn game.
Honestly, Chris Helper (IIRC) had a way better ending, where the Crucible only affected the Reapers due to targeting the atomic bonds of a certain element in the Reapers. It was inspired by some book, which is why Helper wasn't able to get it proposed before Casey and Mac Walters could do what they did.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
Destroy has it's issues- I'll be the first to say it. It kills the AIs you could have fought to save. Those AIs though could be handwaved away in the future with server backups or something whereas Control/Synthesis are things that are the driving force of two key villains and impossible to follow up on.
 

adj_noun

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
17,182
Destroy has it's issues- I'll be the first to say it. It kills the AIs you could have fought to save. Those AIs though could be handwaved away in the future with server backups or something whereas Control/Synthesis are things that are the driving force of two key villains and impossible to follow up on.

The AI thing is such an authorial poison pill to keep everyone from automatically picking Destroy that I find myself disregarding it as Reaper bullshit.

It doesn't help that IIRC the ending doesn't address it very much aside from having characters missing from a scene or two.
 
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BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,830
Australia
I just couldn't get behind the catalyst shenanigans. It was clear they didn't know how to conclude the trilogy.

Yeah - while I do hate the ending for how emotionally unsatisfying it is and how little it takes your choices into account (ME2's ending has more meaningful variation IIRC), emotional satisfaction is pretty subjective. A far more objective and hard-line flaw is that the Catalyst itself makes no sense. It's the leader of the Reapers living on the Citadel when one of the most fundamental and important plot points of the entire series is that the Reapers have been cut off from the Citadel by the Prothean scientists.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,865
no it wasnt,great gameplay but the game carried the sins of this generation of consoles to the fullest extent,from humanity is the center of the universe to the call of duty squadmate to locking a major character behind dlc since day one to having a season fucking pass for multiplayer,game was a huge misfire in many aspects

p.s. and i didnt even mention the cool cyber ninja baddie,oh wait
Great doesn't mean perfect. All things considered it was a pretty impressive third chapter that absolutely didn't stick the landing.
 

Jestek

Member
Sep 10, 2018
23
Us in the Indoctrination Theory Fans Club will never give up.
I'm right there with you. The Indoctrination Theory made me love the ending, and there is so much to support it. It solves almost all of my gripes, and it totally makes sense.

Even though Bioware came out and said it wasn't correct (which is the straight up dumbest thing they could have done. Why not, while the hate for your ending is burning on the internet, let your fan base believe something that makes it better? Still blows my mind.), I still believe the writers intended it. Why was Destroy the only ending that had that last scene of Shepherd? I'm deep in the Indoctrination Theory camp.

Drew Karpyshyn leaving before 3 was the worst thing for them, I think. He was largely responsible for the story and the world built so far. I loved his novels too. Overall still one of my favorite video game series. I loved all 3 and can't wait to play them again.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,830
Australia
I don't actually agree here. I think that they had already laid out an explanation for how there could have been some form of victory over the Reapers, or at least had a path to a place where introducing something new that could result in victory would not have seemed so out of place.

Things that the current cycle have, that previous cycles didn't:

  • Advance warning. The species of the galaxy know they're coming (Could have retconned the council in ME2 has actually secretly believing it, but refusing to cooperate with Shepard publicly because he was working with Cerberus. This isn't crazy when you consider they did something similar with the Andromeda Initiative in ME:A)
  • The Citadel. Normally the Citadel / center of galactic civilization was struck first with no warning and immedialy paralysed them.
  • A functional Mass Relay network. Liara disabled the "off-switch" that Reapers normally use to paralyze interstellar travel via the relays during their invasion.
  • Scans of, or possibly an intact Collector Base. This base used Prothean and Reaper technology. We get scans at minimum, and possibly an intact base for Cerberus if you chose that option.
  • Reverse engineered Reaper main guns. This is the "Thanix Gun" upgrade from ME2, which the Turians developed. It gave cruiser tier firepower to a frigate, and had begun mass producion as of ME2 in the Turian fleets. That means if you scaled it up to Dreadnought size, you'd have a gun that was far more powerful than anything the Citadel races previously had.

Now, I'm not saying a direct standup fight with giant fleets should have resulted in a Citadel victory. But I do think that these are very big advantages compared to previous cycles. The concentrated Citadel fleet in ME1 managed to kill a Reaper. What if those fleets were several times more powerful? They could take on some reapers right, especially if not every Reaper was as big and powerful as Sovereign! ME3 already showed that actually Sovereign and Harbinger were among the biggest Reapers and there were many smaller ones.

On the old bioware social forums, I theorized (long before ME3 or even Arrival DLC had come out) that there could have been a very very good reason why the Reapers didn't just fly back. We know that darkspace is the galactic void, and that conventional FTL drives build up drive charge they can't get rid of, so it wouldn't be implausible if the distances were so vast that they couldn't meaningfully get back without some kind of rejiggering. After all, they never planned on not having the Citadel as a back door. So what if a bunch of Reapers had to pool their drive cores into half or 1/3 of the fleet, and then those Reapers could fly back, and their goal would be to reopen the Citadel so they could bring the rest of the fleet back in? It would be an explanation here for why they chose to wait 1000 years after the Rachni wars, and then another few years after Sovereign died before they said "lol fuck it" and flew back, because without that, they were actually quite vulnerable.

If the Reapers were not at full strength because half or 2/3 of them had to stay behind in Darkspace, and the milky way species already has all these big new advantages, is victory implausible? It wouldn't feel like an asspull, at least. You would still be facing a very very powerful force, and you would still need to unite the Galaxy against it, while opportunistic civilizations take advantage of the chaos just as they did in the real ME3.

Yep. They kept trying to use backups to get through the relay - Sovereign making armies, then the Human-Reaper, then the Alpha Relay. Essentially, the first 2 games are all about the Protheans and Shepard's team picking off all the Reapers' shortcuts into the galaxy. Them being able to just... fly there in a few months with zero consequences is actually considerably dumber. Along with the suggestion that the invasion was supposed to start like 2000 years ago and so the galactic civilisation have advanced far more than the Reapers initially planned for, victory would absolutely be plausible. Another thing they could've done is, say, had Joker and EDI leak the specs of the ancient cannon, resulting in major worlds having anti-Reaper weapons ready during the initial invasion.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,178
Greater Vancouver
The final minutes, especially before the EC, were certainly a bummer. But i think it's true that the entirety of ME3 was an ending and worked to wrap up storylines from years earlier, and there are plenty of really satisfying beats along the way. Ignoring the corny shit like EDI's sexbot body and Kai Leng.
 

OneTrueJack

Member
Aug 30, 2020
4,627
they didn't know, honestly I can understand not having an ending in mind from the beginning of the serie, but not knowing what the big bad's goal is about was an even worse mistake.
Well, that's because the first game really ran with the idea of the Reapers being some sort of Lovecraftian horror. They were supposed to be beyond our understanding.

Which was fine until they got to ME3 and suddenly found themselves asking "Wait, how do you defeat a Lovecraftian, unknowable, unfathomable horror?". After all, there's a reason those stories tend to end with the heroes losing.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
Well, that's because the first game really ran with the idea of the Reapers being some sort of Lovecraftian horror. They were supposed to be beyond our understanding.

Which was fine until they got to ME3 and suddenly found themselves asking "Wait, how do you defeat a Lovecraftian, unknowable, unfathomable horror?". After all, there's a reason those stories tend to end with the heroes losing.
Honestly that only ever really was a thing during the Derelict Reaper sequence in 2. Every other instance of the Reapers- including sovereign in 1 has been just some dickheads talking trash about how *wE aRE BeyONd YoU*.
 

OneTrueJack

Member
Aug 30, 2020
4,627
The AI thing is such an authorial poison pill to keep everyone from automatically picking Destroy that I find myself disregarding it as Reaper bullshit.

It doesn't help that IIRC the ending doesn't address it very much aside from having characters missing from a scene or two.
The really funny part is that there was a much more eloquent solution, but I guess no one at Bioware saw it.

Both Edi and the Geth have Reaper code embedded into them. So it could have been revealed that the Crucible works by targeting said code, only for Shepard to realise what that would mean for some of their allies. A last minute tragic twist hidden in plain sight.
 

OneTrueJack

Member
Aug 30, 2020
4,627
Honestly that only ever really was a thing during the Derelict Reaper sequence in 2. Every other instance of the Reapers- including sovereign in 1 has been just some dickheads talking trash about how *wE aRE BeyONd YoU*.
Yeah, the never really got the vibe right, but the Reapers were always clearly supposed to be space Cthulu. The problem is that setup really lends itself more to a horror game, not an action-adventure.

It's been pointed out before, but the ending to ME3 really feels like the ending to some other version of Mass Effect. A version of the trilogy which fully embraced its Lovecraftian themes of cosmic insignificance and whose primary protagonist was expected to end their journey in tragedy.

But that's not the version they made.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,099
Honestly that only ever really was a thing during the Derelict Reaper sequence in 2. Every other instance of the Reapers- including sovereign in 1 has been just some dickheads talking trash about how *wE aRE BeyONd YoU*.

wintvtk3w.jpg
We are beyond your comprehension. We don't care about what you think. Please do not post on the internet about how we care about what u think and are within your comprehension
 

Kirksplosion

Member
Aug 21, 2018
2,465
I was satisfied with the original ending and felt the Extended Cut was largely gratuitous. The "whole of ME3 was the ending" argument always rang true for me personally. *shrug*

Edit: Oh man, this thread reminded me of the Indoctrination Theory. Absolutely hated it, heh.
 

take_marsh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,263
I believe 'em that the ending was difficult to stick one way or another when choice was supposed to matter so much, but the Normandy zooming off for seemingly no reason was the biggest wtf.

For me, it was all about the friends I made along the way. Citadel DLC was the true goodbye to the Mass Effect trilogy.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,381
Honestly, didn't mind the ending at all.

However, what I had an issue w/ is the illusive man. I would've prefered that he wasn't the final boss before the ending where you choose what to do. Have finish him off at the mid point of ME 3 then you focus on the reapers.

Would've much prefered if you had to go into sovereign or one of the main reapers, destroy or disable it, then go to the citadel to finish things off.
 

Drwu

Member
Aug 23, 2018
226
Nothing says epic conclusion to a massive trilogy then the last enemy you face is marauder shields and then it sorta ends with the biggest wimper of an ending ever. Mass effect 3 is a really fun game but such a massive step back from the first one
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,801
Remember when the entire gaming media defended Bioware back then? What a joke.
Yeah, that was a low point for journalism in the industry. I support speaking out against the people that were taking the issue to extremes and harassing BioWare devs (including the whole cupcake thing), but most of it was actually focusing on "artistic integrity" and trying to argue that people were wrong for being unsatisfied with the ending or for asking BioWare for something better. It was a big mess.
 

ZeroDotFlow

Member
Oct 27, 2017
928
Part of me wonders if we'd ever see a developer rerelease or revise a game entirely. Mass Effect 3 has issues beyond just the ending, it's just that the final bits caps off what is otherwise a sadly mediocre game.

If you had a Mass Effect 3 Redo that revised a lot of the story and cleaned up the ending, I feel like that would go far in revitalizing the series. A shame it went from possibly the biggest sci-fi RPG franchise to just gone in one game.
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,973
There are a bunch of problems with the ending of Mass Effect 3, and it also bothers me when somebody says it's only bad because you choose between 3 different colors. The whole final "scene" before the prologue is a complete deus ex machina that isn't satisfying at all. And there is just something really off putting about a trilogy centered around building relationships with your team members only to say goodbye and go make a decision by yourself that impacts the literal entirety of the universe.

I think the ending is bad in essentially every way it could have been bad. I still enjoyed the game though.
 

nath999

Member
May 7, 2018
1,497
It's just a bad ending for what is an unbelievably good series. I do think the outrage was/is a little much.
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,029
I agree with the notion that Mass Effect 3 as a whole is in of itself the ending to the trilogy. And I'm more forgiving of some of the contrived narrative beats they pulled to dig themselves out of a corner, like the Crucible.

The core problem with the ending is that it its absolute final moments it became an incredibly dumb faux-intellectual spin on the Reapers purpose and origin, and the inevitable conflict between AI and organics, and presented you with completely arbitrary solutions to absurdly contrived scenarios, all of which involved space magic.

You cannot spend a trilogy worth of games, Mass Effect 3 included, enveloping the player in a narrative that revolves around uniting people and creatures despite their differences, bridging the gap between organic and artificial intelligent life to form a sense of empathy, all the while fighting back an enemy that has been portrayed as nothing less than abhorrent, genocidal galactic death, and then go "oh by the way AI and organics can't ever really get along, that's the rules, and the Reapers are actually just a bit misunderstood and broken".

People would be more forgiving of Shepard's demise, the short missions on Earth, and ME3's assortment of other issues, if the climax itself and its final moments felt contextually, thematically, and narratively justified by three games+ worth of content that came before, instead of a bizarre, poorly justified proposition and mountain of space magic.

It's just really fucking jarring writing. Really, really dumb.
 

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,297
New York
What I hate about the discussion regarding the ending for Mass Effect 3 is that it takes away from people discussing how the rest of the game was largely a dumpster fire. The entire game is a mess, not just the ending. If all of Mass Effect 3 is the ending then Bioware still failed.
 

Candescence

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,253
The choices weren't even the worst part of the ending, and the fact that the whole thing wasn't redone from the ground up for the Legendary Edition means I have no incentive to ever pick it up. I know the old saying in "it's about the journey, not the destination", but you actually have to have a worthwhile destination to make the journey mean anything.

I agree with the notion that Mass Effect 3 as a whole is in of itself the ending to the trilogy. And I'm more forgiving of some of the contrived narrative beats they pulled to dig themselves out of a corner, like the Crucible.

The core problem with the ending is that it its absolute final moments it became an incredibly dumb faux-intellectual spin on the Reapers purpose and origin, and the inevitable conflict between AI and organics, and presented you with completely arbitrary solutions to absurdly contrived scenarios, all of which involved space magic.

You cannot spend a trilogy worth of games, Mass Effect 3 included, enveloping the player in a narrative that revolves around uniting people and creatures despite their differences, bridging the gap between organic and artificial intelligent life to form a sense of empathy, all the while fighting back an enemy that has been portrayed as nothing less than abhorrent, genocidal galactic death, and then go "oh by the way AI and organics can't ever really get along, that's the rules, and the Reapers are actually just a bit misunderstood and broken".

People would be more forgiving of Shepard's demise, the short missions on Earth, and ME3's assortment of other issues, if the climax itself and its final moments felt contextually, thematically, and narratively justified by three games+ worth of content that came before, instead of a bizarre, poorly justified proposition and mountain of space magic.

It's just really fucking jarring writing. Really, really dumb.
Friggin' this, though I'm a bit less forgiving about the Crucible, but whatever, it's not the worst writing decision Bioware made. But the whole ending sequence is a goddamn dumpster fire that makes no narrative or thematic sense within the universe.

The fact that Casey Hudson and Mac Walters came up with the whole thing entirely on their own with absolutely no input from the rest of the team is infuriating and should have permanently destroyed their credibility as writers.

I mean, seriously, if they had just turned the Crucible into a giant robot and had Shepard pilot it to fight a Reaper amalgamation formed by Harbinger for the fate of the galaxy, I wouldn't have nearly had a problem with that. (Then again, I'm probably biased as a fan of giant robots and I think it would've been the coolest shit ever if that happened, but it still would've been a better ending thematically.)
 
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ILPRT

Member
Apr 5, 2019
77
This is very insightful to see this feedback from the devs and the thought that ending to ME3 wasn't a total team decision seems troubling. I was holding out hope we might get some additional backstory on the ending in the Legendary edition lol
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,951
I mean, the entire mechanism at the center of how the game ends, the Crucible, is a complete nonsense device. How does it work? Why does interacting with it in three completely absurd ways (blow up a component with a pistol, grab a conduit and disintegrate yourself, swan dive into a beam of light) result in any of the endings you get? Why is the Crucible even built in a way that would allow more than one option in the first place, regardless of how insane any of the triggers are? Why didn't the console you first try not work, only for there to be a conveniently placed elevator that took you up to a platform where all of this ending nonsense plays out?

Never mind Star Child being there to condescendingly tell you to use the damn thing you were already there to activate in the first place. Seriously, just forget the color of explosion for a moment. The entire concept of the Crucible falls completely apart if you think about it for even a few seconds.

You also don't get to see the crucible being built in the first place, or how it should actually have been your homebase to return to after every mission to see the progress of its development.
 

Smoolio

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,826
I agree with the notion that Mass Effect 3 as a whole is in of itself the ending to the trilogy. And I'm more forgiving of some of the contrived narrative beats they pulled to dig themselves out of a corner, like the Crucible.

The core problem with the ending is that it its absolute final moments it became an incredibly dumb faux-intellectual spin on the Reapers purpose and origin, and the inevitable conflict between AI and organics, and presented you with completely arbitrary solutions to absurdly contrived scenarios, all of which involved space magic.

You cannot spend a trilogy worth of games, Mass Effect 3 included, enveloping the player in a narrative that revolves around uniting people and creatures despite their differences, bridging the gap between organic and artificial intelligent life to form a sense of empathy, all the while fighting back an enemy that has been portrayed as nothing less than abhorrent, genocidal galactic death, and then go "oh by the way AI and organics can't ever really get along, that's the rules, and the Reapers are actually just a bit misunderstood and broken".

People would be more forgiving of Shepard's demise, the short missions on Earth, and ME3's assortment of other issues, if the climax itself and its final moments felt contextually, thematically, and narratively justified by three games+ worth of content that came before, instead of a bizarre, poorly justified proposition and mountain of space magic.

It's just really fucking jarring writing. Really, really dumb.
Thanks for putting this better than I ever could, really makes me have no desire to play the trilogy again unless ME4 makes a narrative argument and pathway to enable it.
 

Whowasphone

Member
Sep 21, 2019
1,049
The ending was just that. And ending. It was an amazing journey from beginning to end and I still able the hell out of what they were able to achieve. There is so much "apparently" unintentional nuance and beauty in the ambiguities that amazing theories cable out of it and even if you took it at face value.. surrendering your control at the end is what we all do inevitably. Choice at the end being arbitrary and perhaps not even or more than an illusion.

For what it's worth, I was left dazed the first time I went through the trilogy but when it came to the end years later after going through it all again, I accidentally shit the hologram kid instead of letting him dump his exposition and then s cutscenes of a smug shepard just walks away and the credits roll 🙂 to this day I consider that canon.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
The ending was just that. And ending. It was an amazing journey from beginning to end and I still able the hell out of what they were able to achieve. There is so much "apparently" unintentional nuance and beauty in the ambiguities that amazing theories cable out of it and even if you took it at face value.. surrendering your control at the end is what we all do inevitably. Choice at the end being arbitrary and perhaps not even or more than an illusion.

For what it's worth, I was left dazed the first time I went through the trilogy but when it came to the end years later after going through it all again, I accidentally shit the hologram kid instead of letting him dump his exposition and then s cutscenes of a smug shepard just walks away and the credits roll 🙂 to this day I consider that canon.
The funny thing about the Refuse ending is that Bioware said that they weren't going to add any endings to the game in the Extended Cut, but they snuck that one in anyway.
 

Polyh3dron

Prophet of Regret
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,860
Honestly all the talk of how bad the ME3 ending was back in the day made me not even play it. Looking back on it now, this was really the point where BioWare was dead to me, for all intents and purposes.

The series ended at the #2 ending for me, and they never made another game worthy of my time after that.
 
Feb 1, 2018
5,240
Europe
That ending was just complete garbage and it's the reason I will never touch anything ME ever again. ME1 set up a perfect situation/story very much in line with modern SF books. ME2 just wanted to be COD in space and ME3 thought it was a JRpg. People working on this turd should hang their heads in shame.

F*** off with your remastered shit.
 

MrBS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,225
Oh year the remaster will only have the extended cut wont it? That sucks, I remember rushing through a paragon run of the game before the EC dropped so I could see the original ending bad as it was without the retcon. I'm so glad that change the ending thing never caught on after this.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
I'm right there with you. The Indoctrination Theory made me love the ending, and there is so much to support it. It solves almost all of my gripes, and it totally makes sense.

Even though Bioware came out and said it wasn't correct (which is the straight up dumbest thing they could have done. Why not, while the hate for your ending is burning on the internet, let your fan base believe something that makes it better? Still blows my mind.), I still believe the writers intended it. Why was Destroy the only ending that had that last scene of Shepherd? I'm deep in the Indoctrination Theory camp.

Drew Karpyshyn leaving before 3 was the worst thing for them, I think. He was largely responsible for the story and the world built so far. I loved his novels too. Overall still one of my favorite video game series. I loved all 3 and can't wait to play them again.

I agree, embracing the indoctrination theory would have been such an easy W. When they put out the ending DLC, they could have gotten so much goodwill by basically implementing it, which would both validate fans and also invalidate the terrible original endings. It's a win-win, but at the time they were still on the defensive regarding the endings as-is and it felt like they were more interested in redeeming them and proving the fans wrong. The fans gave them an easy out and they rejected it.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Hudson and Walters writing the ending in strict isolation, ensuring no wider feedback, was a really weird, egotistical way to compose the ending to something so many people contributed to for a decade. That this masterpiece big decision ended up being where you choose from a, b or c random choices cooked up, presented by an annoying npc, and without a conversation tree that explores it to the same extent as the ethical decisions people actually cared about, was a huge disappointment and deeply unsatisfying. It's true that ending it would always be hard, and that the whole game is the final act, but that doesn't mean it wasn't just really badly handled, and that it feels isolated from the rest of the entire campaign kinda feels related to how they isolated themselves from the team for it.

I would have been happy with the run-up to it playing out like Suicide Mission in ME2 if we had to have space kid and buttons with nonsensical Galaxy-wide magic effects of godlike, reality-altering power like synthesis. The thing that annoyed me was that all allies get sidelined, it's just Shepherd being space Jesus, and even then he's railroaded into these dumbass choices by an npc you can't argue with. Sure, it's sci-fi and they wanted a memorable, philosophical choice where everything is a hard decision with no easy option. That's not the problem. That's the logic for all manner of interesting RPG plot lines. But it's such a letdown as the ending of a series where everything led to it, it just felt like they didn't know how to end it and so cooked up a kid in a room with 3 buttons. The minute they realised that they didn't know how to end it is exactly when they should have started asking the team for ideas in what what be both a satisfying ending for players and one that involved difficult choices with consequences.

Even just having a couple of your companions with you to bounce off, and throw more arguments at star kid would have helped, with the choices (and perhaps confrontation if you lean towards what they think is abhorrent) perhaps developing from there depending on who you picked and how you've influenced their take on the future of the galaxy. Raising the kid and Shepherd up to being gods deciding everything alone on a single button press that magically changes everything, instantly just feels so disconnected from a series that's been talking about void space, pan-galactic distances, astrophysics, biomechanics, genocide, evolution etc like they mean something. Sure, it's all space magic. But the rest of it convinced the player the universe had rules and so they buy in. The ending just gave up on that the minute they decided it was a button press.

Instead you say goodbye to them in an army camp with a random turret sequence bolted into it because heaven forbid the commander of the alliance hasn't shot anyone in the last five minutes. I think that turret sequence was almost as jarring as the ending for me, the idea that writers thought there was no junior goon around to handle this, nobody on guard while your field commanders are talking about the final push.
 
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lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,248
It's a "favoritism" born out of necessity. In some ways Liara is more of a plot device than a character. Her development from ME1 to ME2 makes absolutely no sense.

You pretty much have to pretend she is a different character.

What I hate about the discussion regarding the ending for Mass Effect 3 is that it takes away from people discussing how the rest of the game was largely a dumpster fire. The entire game is a mess, not just the ending. If all of Mass Effect 3 is the ending then Bioware still failed.

This is very true.

I recently played it. I had a really good time. Particularly with the Citadel DLC.

That said, ME3 was Cyperpunk before Cyperpunk was a glimmer in CDPR's eye: tons of promise, hype, actual good design, and writing overwhelmed by a metric mountain of fuckups.

The ending being lame was bad. The mission before the ending was atrocious and a much bigger offender in my opinion.

And the sidequests. And Kai Leng. And whatever the fuck they did to Ashley's face. And the Ashley/Kaiden character assassination.

The combat was really good though. Still the best in the series.
 
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