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EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,683
It's honestly amazing. And with auto enhancements with resolution and HDR.

So is this all emulation and software based? How is Microsoft doing this?

From day one the Xbox runs it's games in a virtualised environment. It's almost like an emulator in itself.

So that means they can swap out the hardware and games behave the same.
It's how Xbox One S games could run on X with no modification, despite it not having the same hardware and no ESRAM ( they games don't know exactly what they are attached to, they just get given what is allocated)
 

Smokey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,176
Microsoft's edge over Sony in software and services is really showing. They are simply a powerhouse as a company in that department, and it cannot be denied. Microsoft has extensive, deep experience with backwards compatibility from their history with Windows and other platforms. I'm really excited for next gen.

Yep. Doing everything in software is insane. And across 3 generations of different hardware? Wild.
 
Oct 27, 2017
744
New York, NY
So is this all emulation and software based? How is Microsoft doing this?

Have you ever heard of 'coding to the metal'? Its the idea of writing software code that runs directly on the underlying hardware - there is no middle man (software) between the code you write and the hardware it runs on. This allows for better performance as there is no overhead. This is why consoles often run better than a similar PC - they can optimize more. The downside is that the game is written for one very specific piece of hardware and cannot run elsewhere. This is why emulators exist - they have to emulate the hardware exactly as that's the only way the software can run.

For the Xbox One, Microsoft changed this. Instead of developers coding to the Xbox One hardware, they created a Virtual Machine that games ran in. The games coded to this Virtual Machine, and the Xbox then translated these virtual machine calls into hardware calls to run on the device. The actual 'system' the games ran on was a virtualized one that does not actually exist in hardware. The downside of this is there is a very slight performance penalty (very slight on a console since you can optimize it quite well). The upside is that you can easily run games on different hardware - you just have to create a new codebase that can translate the virtual machine calls to the native hardware code.

The Xbox One 'hardware' doesn't exist. Its fake (virtualized). This is why its so easy for Microsoft to make games run so well on different hardware - they only have to implement one single system layer to make every single game work. As long as they properly handle all calls the virtualized system makes to the hardware, they are compatible. This is why the Xbox One X has such a different architecture to the base Xbox One (no more ESRAM) yet still runs games no problem. Whereas the PS4 Pro has the occasional issue running base PS4 games (the games are talking to the PS4 Pro hardware directly, and the hardware is physically different).

Its costly and hard to make a good virtualized system though (otherwise everyone would do it).
 

Vince-DiCola

Banned
May 22, 2019
284
Culloden
My digital library on Xbox is 400 games strong.
I was confident that almost all these games would work on the next Xbox and my faith was rewarded.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,116
Amalthea
I only have an original Xbox One, so the performance will probably not be perfect on that. I will wait for Xbox Series X, but this is the one game where improved bc is an actual system seller for me. On the daytime stages, this is the best Sonic has to offer.
Even on the OG XBox One, the double buffer VSYNC that is applied to 360 games makes them feel soooo much smoother to play. Trust me, it's really hard for me to go from some games like Portal 2 amongst others that have really bad judder, to playing them on my One and having a smoother experience.

And I'll hold you up to that. I have always wanted to play Unleashed. Bought it years ago and never played it. Let's see how I like it ^.^
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
Err... this brings it back to what I posted in the other thread... he made this conclusion based on posts that don't actually say all games will work? Theorry
I'm simply repeating what Xbox Wire already publicly said in February 🙂

news.xbox.com

What You Can Expect From the Next Generation of Gaming - Xbox Wire

The future of gaming has never been more inspiring. Creativity in games is flourishing. New services empower you to discover more games—and bring you closer to the games and creators and streamers you love. The cloud creates a massive opportunity to stream console-quality games and play with the...
news.xbox.com

Xbox Series X: A Closer Look at the Technology Powering the Next Generation - Xbox Wire

A few months ago, we revealed Xbox Series X, our fastest, most powerful console ever, designed for a console generation that has you, the player, at its center. When it is released this holiday season, Xbox Series X will set a new bar for performance, speed and compatibility, all while allowing...

Phil said last month on BC:

I'm trying it. It's in active development, sometimes it reboots. Not all the games today are completely compatible. We're working through our list of approved games on it. You can see what I'm playing; there's tons of games that work," Spencer said.

www.resetera.com

Is the full Backwards Compatibility dream from this gen to next dead for both Xbox and PlayStation?

I wrongly assumed for a long time that everything this gen can play will work on next gen. “They’re like PCs now!” they said. But suddenly the press blog by Playstation themselves and every professional site has reported that PS5 is using a dreadful whitelisting program for PS4. Some are...
 

RedShift_

Member
Jul 24, 2018
507
Every single game you can run on an Xbox One will also run on Xbox Series X. They will also run better by default. Just like Xbox One --> Xbox One X.

Better = in the context of hitting the frame cap consistently?
We won't get any res/fps bumps out of the gate unless patched, right?

I still have many games that I play on my X1X at XB1S resolutions, unfortunately...
 

K' Dash

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
4,156
giphy.gif
 

Spasm

Member
Nov 16, 2017
1,948
From day one the Xbox runs it's games in a virtualised environment. It's almost like an emulator in itself.

So that means they can swap out the hardware and games behave the same.
It's how Xbox One S games could run on X with no modification, despite it not having the same hardware and no ESRAM ( they games don't know exactly what they are attached to, they just get given what is allocated)
Yup! What do you think of my crazy Lockhart theory? Enhancements in reverse?
 

Godzilla24

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,371
My digital library on Xbox is 400 games strong.
I was confident that almost all these games would work on the next Xbox and my faith was rewarded.
Yep its gonna be great not having to plug in old consoles again and taking up needed space or if your old console dies from age, your gaming collection lives on. Flex.
 

gabdeg

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,960
🐝
Every game running at the increased spec is simply what you should expect from a platform maker. MS goes a step further with the enhancements and it's great. Just reading about boost modes and having there be the potential of an old title running the same on PS5 as it does on PS4 gives me a headache.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
Better = in the context of hitting the frame cap consistently?
We won't get any res/fps bumps out of the gate unless patched, right?

I still have many games that I play on my X1X at XB1S resolutions, unfortunately...
Yeah that isn't accurate so I'm confused too. Many games do not perform any better on X than on XB1... and his assertion all games from XB1 are BC is not explicitly stated in the sources he cited
 

SpartyCrunch

Xbox
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,498
Seattle, WA
I'm repeating what Xbox Wire and Phil have publicly said is the goal. 4 generations of compatibility and your games all come with you. I'm not on the team and am not confirming anything that hasn't already been confirmed.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
it's in the DF article, for example GOW remastered, a game that has not been patched for the 1X runs at 4K on the XSX.
It was not done automatically. They applied the Heutchy method they created to enhance Xbox 360 and OG Xbox games to a XB1 game in order to achieve it. The game has to go through a process where the BC team had to apply the Heutchy method and trick the renderer to render the native resolution at double what it was orginally.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,683
Better = in the context of hitting the frame cap consistently?
We won't get any res/fps bumps out of the gate unless patched, right?

I still have many games that I play on my X1X at XB1S resolutions, unfortunately...

It may be that for Xbox one games, the resolution is defined via the Xbox SDK and the game OS can actually override it.
That is fundamentally what they did With 360 games , it will be easier with the Xbox One games as they seem to have planned for this since the start of last gen.
 

Dokkaebi G0SU

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,922
Have you ever heard of 'coding to the metal'? Its the idea of writing software code that runs directly on the underlying hardware - there is no middle man (software) between the code you write and the hardware it runs on. This allows for better performance as there is no overhead. This is why consoles often run better than a similar PC - they can optimize more. The downside is that the game is written for one very specific piece of hardware and cannot run elsewhere. This is why emulators exist - they have to emulate the hardware exactly as that's the only way the software can run.

For the Xbox One, Microsoft changed this. Instead of developers coding to the Xbox One hardware, they created a Virtual Machine that games ran in. The games coded to this Virtual Machine, and the Xbox then translated these virtual machine calls into hardware calls to run on the device. The actual 'system' the games ran on was a virtualized one that does not actually exist in hardware. The downside of this is there is a very slight performance penalty (very slight on a console since you can optimize it quite well). The upside is that you can easily run games on different hardware - you just have to create a new codebase that can translate the virtual machine calls to the native hardware code.

The Xbox One 'hardware' doesn't exist. Its fake (virtualized). This is why its so easy for Microsoft to make games run so well on different hardware - they only have to implement one single system layer to make every single game work. As long as they properly handle all calls the virtualized system makes to the hardware, they are compatible. This is why the Xbox One X has such a different architecture to the base Xbox One (no more ESRAM) yet still runs games no problem. Whereas the PS4 Pro has the occasional issue running base PS4 games (the games are talking to the PS4 Pro hardware directly, and the hardware is physically different).

Its costly and hard to make a good virtualized system though (otherwise everyone would do it).

So with the bolded, an assumed Lockhart version could easily work then. Much easier than the perceived narrative of holding back a new generation.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
It may be that for Xbox one games, the resolution is defined via the Xbox SDK and the game OS can actually override it.
That is fundamentally what they did With 360 games , it will be easier with the Xbox One games as they seem to have planned for this since the start of last gen.
So it's definitely not done automatically, and still has to go through a process even if it's easier, right?
 

Maple

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,729
Have you ever heard of 'coding to the metal'? Its the idea of writing software code that runs directly on the underlying hardware - there is no middle man (software) between the code you write and the hardware it runs on. This allows for better performance as there is no overhead. This is why consoles often run better than a similar PC - they can optimize more. The downside is that the game is written for one very specific piece of hardware and cannot run elsewhere. This is why emulators exist - they have to emulate the hardware exactly as that's the only way the software can run.

For the Xbox One, Microsoft changed this. Instead of developers coding to the Xbox One hardware, they created a Virtual Machine that games ran in. The games coded to this Virtual Machine, and the Xbox then translated these virtual machine calls into hardware calls to run on the device. The actual 'system' the games ran on was a virtualized one that does not actually exist in hardware. The downside of this is there is a very slight performance penalty (very slight on a console since you can optimize it quite well). The upside is that you can easily run games on different hardware - you just have to create a new codebase that can translate the virtual machine calls to the native hardware code.

The Xbox One 'hardware' doesn't exist. Its fake (virtualized). This is why its so easy for Microsoft to make games run so well on different hardware - they only have to implement one single system layer to make every single game work. As long as they properly handle all calls the virtualized system makes to the hardware, they are compatible. This is why the Xbox One X has such a different architecture to the base Xbox One (no more ESRAM) yet still runs games no problem. Whereas the PS4 Pro has the occasional issue running base PS4 games (the games are talking to the PS4 Pro hardware directly, and the hardware is physically different).

Its costly and hard to make a good virtualized system though (otherwise everyone would do it).

What about low level APIs that take advantage of unique hardware features? For example, the 32 MB ESRAM cache on the Xbox One. Surely this was utilized by developers, and the intention behind was to provide developers with a small but wickedly fast pool of reserve memory for specific tasks.

How does the VM handle requests to use the ESRAM cache on something like the Series X if no such reserve of memory exists?
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
This is how backwards compatible should be done. This is one of the reasons I'm sticking to XSX as my main console. Too much content I can just carry over.
 
Oct 27, 2017
744
New York, NY
What about low level APIs that take advantage of unique hardware features? For example, the 32 MB ESRAM cache on the Xbox One. Surely this was utilized by developers, and the intention behind was to provide developers with a small but wickedly fast pool of reserve memory for specific tasks.

How does the VM handle requests to use the ESRAM cache on something like the Series X if no such reserve of memory exists?

The games very well may have coded to use that much faster ram. But they still weren't 'talking to the ESRAM'. They were talking to a fast pool of fake memory that represented the ESRAM. There is no reason Microsoft cannot simply map those virtualized calls to memory that is sufficiently fast on different harder (which is what they did with the One X).
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,683
So it's definitely not done automatically, and still has to go through a process even if it's easier, right?

I don't know anything definitely, but I'm fairly certain that there will be games that implemented their own solutions to things and they can't be changed without manual intervention. These might be the ones with no resolution boost.
Games using checkerboard rendering , or dynamic resolution with an upper cap.

And because a game may have areas in it which stretch the machine when the resolution is increased, they would likely be manually vetting them anyway.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
Have you ever heard of 'coding to the metal'? Its the idea of writing software code that runs directly on the underlying hardware - there is no middle man (software) between the code you write and the hardware it runs on. This allows for better performance as there is no overhead. This is why consoles often run better than a similar PC - they can optimize more. The downside is that the game is written for one very specific piece of hardware and cannot run elsewhere. This is why emulators exist - they have to emulate the hardware exactly as that's the only way the software can run.

For the Xbox One, Microsoft changed this. Instead of developers coding to the Xbox One hardware, they created a Virtual Machine that games ran in. The games coded to this Virtual Machine, and the Xbox then translated these virtual machine calls into hardware calls to run on the device. The actual 'system' the games ran on was a virtualized one that does not actually exist in hardware. The downside of this is there is a very slight performance penalty (very slight on a console since you can optimize it quite well). The upside is that you can easily run games on different hardware - you just have to create a new codebase that can translate the virtual machine calls to the native hardware code.

The Xbox One 'hardware' doesn't exist. Its fake (virtualized). This is why its so easy for Microsoft to make games run so well on different hardware - they only have to implement one single system layer to make every single game work. As long as they properly handle all calls the virtualized system makes to the hardware, they are compatible. This is why the Xbox One X has such a different architecture to the base Xbox One (no more ESRAM) yet still runs games no problem. Whereas the PS4 Pro has the occasional issue running base PS4 games (the games are talking to the PS4 Pro hardware directly, and the hardware is physically different).

Its costly and hard to make a good virtualized system though (otherwise everyone would do it).
Thank you. This is the best explanation I've read on why MS is so successful with their backward compatibility efforts.
 

Nolbertos

Member
Dec 9, 2017
3,314
Well, this wasn't too hard of a choice, thanks to BC. Goodbye Sony for my 3rd party needs and hello MS again for my multi-platforming needs. Haven't been within the Xbox ecosystem since the 360 days, so now I'll try to buy some Xbox One games with friends.
 

isahn

Member
Nov 15, 2017
990
Roma
It was not done automatically. They applied the Heutchy method they created to enhance Xbox 360 and OG Xbox games to a XB1 game in order to achieve it. The game has to go through a process where the BC team had to apply the Heutchy method and trick the renderer to render the native resolution at double what it was orginally.
the point is to enhance a BC game without the need of a patch and hence dev and publisher effort. Clearly something has to be done, it's not magic
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,220
So the goal is every single title is compatible

Looks like we are right back where we started
 
OP
OP
Theorry

Theorry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
61,009
Not so fast. Read his recent posts. He is citing the same blogs I parsed. Phil's comments a few weeks ago remain indicative of some kind of approval for working games in the works.
Yes publisher approval. Just like 360 and og Xbox games. They need to legally.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
the point is to enhance a BC game without the need of a patch and hence dev and publisher effort. Clearly something has to be done, it's not magic
Sure, but that's not AUTO. Auto would be something done at the system level such as XB1X adding AFx16 to non patched XB1 games for example.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,345
I feel good about investing in a digital library on Xbox.
It is wild that that i can still download and play digital games i purchased in 2005 on my X1X and soon Series X. Hell i can even play disc i bought in 2001 on current systems. Even my account and friends list has followed me since 2003. Microsoft has really been the best when it comes to its digital ecosystem being consumer friendly. There have been a few blunders but compared to Nintendo and Sony its on another level.
 

Trieu

Member
Feb 22, 2019
1,774
Great to hear for Xbox gamers.

I genuinely wish Sony would follow a bit more suit of what Microsoft is doing in some ways. In a perfect world we would have Xbox Series X hardware and BC capabilities but with Playstation Exclusive games and every game works with whatever input device you choose.

I am aware that both are business and want to make money and everything Xbox has been doing under Phil Spencer wasn't because they are extremely customer friendly, but rather the underdogs who need to win back the consumer's trust, but still being completely honest I would love a little bit more transparency and effort on Sony's side regarding what they can do to sweeten our gaming needs.
Sadly at the end of the day it is the new games that count the most and this is where Sony shines like nobody else for the past decade or so.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,403
the point is to enhance a BC game without the need of a patch and hence dev and publisher effort. Clearly something has to be done, it's not magic

I think the "doing nothing" part was mentioning nothing from the devs part only. Of course the BC team needed to do something.

Isn't the Series X too powerful and fast to run old games?
its so strong that it loops back and gets weak and runs fusion frenzy at half resolution and fps
but it works!
 

Nolbertos

Member
Dec 9, 2017
3,314
So the goal is every single title is compatible

Looks like we are right back where we started

Well, MS already has a better headstart than Sony on BC. Over 250 Xbox 360 games is BC and about 30-40 OG Xbox games and ALL Xbox One games, I'd take that in a heartbeat over what Sony is offering with the PS5, especially since there will be a gaming drought in the beginning of each new gen.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
Yes publisher approval. Just like 360 and og Xbox games. They need to legally.
Right, so it's not full BC. It's a whitelist again, and many games won't boot. Not every single game has been promised.

Again, the Xbox blog doesn't promise every game and Phil said:
`"I'm trying it. It's in active development, sometimes it reboots. Not all the games today are completely compatible. We're working through our list of approved games on it. You can see what I'm playing; there's tons of games that work," Spencer said.
 
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