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Luke88

One Winged Slayer
Member
Dec 29, 2018
2,560
Italy
Is Jet Set Radio doing great? I was left at the poll that occurred like, two years now maybe? that had it winning by a landslide as the most wanted port to modern platforms. I re-started the game on my PC yesterday so I assume the answer is no. In general I don't like saying everything is doing great because it's hardly ever true. Does SMTV look great? Yes, it's one of my most anticipated games for the rest of the year, but we won't be sure of it's quality until someone gets to play it. Project RE: Fantasy is still vaporware, Sakura Wars flopped hard, Valkyria Chronicles is probably on ice, I doubt that's the definition of every SEGA property doing great. Even Yakuza isn't as successful as some make it out to be, and I love those games.
 
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pbayne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,377
Its not a recent thing, sonic has been stuck between mediocrity and being downright awful for near 20 years now. I actually give Sega more credit for keeping him alive for so long in spite of how poor some of the games have been.
 

shadowman16

Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,983
So, its probably important to separate Colours HD and Sonic issues in general. Why? Because Sega ports/remakes/remasters being bad is NOT a Sonic only thing, so I feel that's contorting any conversation here.

So Colours HD seems like a rushed port that has its share of glitches, seizure inducing bugs (that's really fucking bad), and just generally being an ill thought out game in so many ways (remixing music that's worse, graphical changes that in some ways look worse than the original, basically everything about the Switch version - especially load times and performance being half what it should be).

But do you remember a few years back? A glitchy game with tons of audio issues was remastered by a team using a Sega IP that only featured Sonic as a capsule toy? Shenmue 1&2 HD. It was rushed, it was outsourced to a team that didn't have enough time, at one point were trying to make similar questionable looking graphical changes like Colours got, and ultimately is only a great remaster if you play on PC with many a mod installed.

How about a more recent example. Panzer Dragoon got a remake that basically released half finished. Bad controls, bad frame rate and again graphical changes that didnt fit the spirit of the original. It was patched to fix the first two issues at least but still...

Remember Alex Kidd? He got a remaster?remake? this year, and the outsourced team who worked on it decided that using the 50Hz Euro version of the game as the template would be a good idea. The game is a juddery mess as it doesnt run correctly at 60FPS. Another own goal with a Sega IP.

And now to RGG/Yakuza... even a good series is harmed by Sega's bizarre curse of not remastering games correctly. Kiwami 2's graphical changes are in some instances weird (Kiryu looking the wrong age), Takashima being aged up a good 30 years because face actor... Cutting content left and right... People want to complain about remixed soundtracks in colours? Try checking Kiwami 2's soundtrack which cut a shit ton of tracks and didnt replace them with better tracks, ESPECIALLY key scenes in the story that had SiM music shoehorned into it.
And the remasters of 3-5? Glitches here and there... Bowling, Pool, Fishing, combat, I dont have the interest to list everything and depending on the port you play (console or PC) you get treated to different glitches there as well.
Judge Eyes remaster and Yakuza Like a Dragon? They felt the need to change the colour tone to the game world and Im still not sure if I like the cool blue over the warm orange look. Then you have mini games getting cut, and for both JE and RGG7 - Space Harrier was not ported correctly so its capped running in mid 50FPS, not 60FPS so its nowhere near as smooth.

Fairly certain the SMT3 HD port had issues as well, but Im not all that familiar with the series so wont comment.

At least Monster World 4's recent console port was rather delightful.


So yeah - certainly not saying Sonic hasnt had its ups and downs as a series lately (I played Forces, I didnt like Forces) but Unleashed, original Colours (emulated with the 60FPS code is a joyous experience), Generations, Mania etc. are all great games that I loved (some more than others) but this one I'm not putting at the feet of the franchise, I'm blaming Sega and the port team who worked on the game - lack of budget, time, bizarre choices (such as using Godot to remake the game from scratch) are all potential issues, but people just saying "lol Sonic" are missing just how bad Sega is with its properties sometimes when it comes to remasters, ports and remakes. Lets see how the Monkey Ball remakes do next month, Im optimistic based on what is shown though I still want to be absolutely sure the physics arent fucked up.
 

SimonM7

Member
Oct 27, 2017
359
Sweden
"That most people skipped or abandoned"

The original sonic colours was one of the best selling 3d sonic games, the first year sales outpaced generations for example
Yeah, I really kinda truncated my point in a way that took away what I was trying to say.

The Wii had a lot of games that were offshoots from franchises - some of which did well some of which didn't - that rarely get taken into account when a franchise is evaluated. It's like they don't really count unless they were released on all the contemporary platforms. I've always attributed that to the Wii audience being a huge amount of family/casual players, rounded out by nintendo die-hards and completionist gamers. I honestly think you can change the consensus on heaps of games if you magically changed history so they released on 360/PS3 instead.

Which isn't to say I would've preferred that, but I definitely think that would've put them in front of many more people who make up the verdict on games online.
 

ArcheTenix

Alt-Account
Banned
Jul 22, 2021
217
It's as simple as Sonic not being any good and really hasn't been able to leave the 2D era behind; whereas Mario has successfully breached that barrier long ago.
 

Virtua Sanus

Member
Nov 24, 2017
6,492
I mean...the existence of beloved 85+ non-Mario platformers like Crash Bandicoot 4 and Psychonauts 2 lead me to believe that it's simply a case of the wrong people being in charge of the IP.
Those are both passion projects that fans had to wait nearly two decades for each. Things have slowed down a bit recently but Sonic was previously a yearly franchise. The scale of these projects are not comparable and I am certain most Sonic games are lower budget than all recent Crash games have been (minus the mobile title). A lot of Psychonauts 2's brilliance came from it being a project that stewed for a much longer period of time than most, along with it being conceptualized over a decade ago.

Yearly game franchises exist all over, but they require a dramatically larger workforce and budget to remain as consistent as they can be (but not always are). Forces and Rangers are the most distant any mainline games have been, especially when you realize Runners was meant to be seen as a mainline title prior to Forces. This could potentially mean a ton of things, but it is pointless to guess until we see anything beyond random early development impressions.

Now Sonic games being relatively low budget after Unleashed on top of this is very much an issue but it relatively unrelated to the topic. I have my fingers crossed things are different now though.

What Japanese people develop and what they play aren't related at all.

Oh, and to top your shitshow of discrimination off, this port wasn't even made by a Japanese team. It was done by a port studio based in America. What was that again about how they do platformer development better?
The original point they made was about the platformer genre and the Sonic IP, not Colors Ultimate's port job specifically.

Dooble is extremely well-read on the subject and knows what they are talking about here. Not sure why you are trying to twist it into a racist thing, but it is absolutely true that skillsets for other types of genres are much more worthwhile to tackle in Japanese development, regardless of the targeted markets.
 

ArjanN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,114
Yeah, they have some non-Japanese stuff that does well, which is why I was trying to avoid saying everything is struggling.

IMO it would be more accurate to say almost all their current stuff is doing great. To be honest whenever I see people argue current Sega isn't doing well it always has big "yeah, but why aren't you making a new Billy Hatcher?" energy.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Maybe. Just maybe. Sonic doesn't inherently work in 3D and the dev resources & talent necessary to force it into a competent game is not usually financially viable. Hence why Sonic is forever stuck in the 90s licensed game hell (despite not being technically licensed)


Nah, that's not it
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,605
The fact that Shadow the Hedgehog made it out of a boardroom and all the way through production probably says it all.

If you can't reason the leadership of Sonic Team out of a calculated risk as stupid as that one then what hope is there for a good idea?
 
Sonic Team could never figure out how to handle 3D and the people who were responsible for good design fundamentals in 16-bit Sonic games are all long gone.

Based on past comments from Sonic Team themselves, it is true that they don't really get the appeal of the product as games (as opposed to marketing the appeal of Sonic as a character) and don't understand what people playing Sonic games want.

However, it is also true that... they're just not very good at making platformers, 2D or 3D. The side-scrolling sections of Sonic Colors are probably the best work they've ever done. Ranging from "good" to "almost great". They never broke through a ceiling beyond that.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,926
The original point they made was about the platformer genre and the Sonic IP, not Colors Ultimate's port job specifically.

Dooble is extremely well-read on the subject and knows what they are talking about here. Not sure why you are trying to twist it into a racist thing, but it is absolutely true that skillsets for other types of genres are much more worthwhile to tackle in Japanese development, regardless of the targeted markets.
They're not wrong in that historically there's only a handful of Japanese devs making 3D platformers today; Nintendo EPD Tokyo (Mario), Sonic Team (Sonic), Team Asobi (Astrobot) and Arzest (Balan). Going back you can find other examples too like Xing (Floating Runner), Exact/Sugar & Rockets (Jumping Flash), Tamtam (Ninpen Manmaru), Genki (Super Magnetic Neo), NHS (Chameleon Twist), Artoon (Blinx), Smilebit (JSR), Japan Studio/Team Saru (Ape Escape), KCEO (Goemon), KCEK (Castlevania), Namco (Muchables), Tose (Nightmare Before Christmas) and so on, but none of that is really in active continued dev today. There is some indie stuff (Tasomachi, Super Sami Roll, Forward to the Sky, etc) and I guess RGG Studio's Super Monkey Ball can probably be considered one too really.

On the other hand saying Japanese devs don't have the expertise or capability needed for 3D platform development is wildly off the mark when considering the consistently high and genre defining quality of Mario (and Astro too even). Honestly it feels more like a dismissive and sloppy defense for Sega/Sonic Team, by reframing their inability as some sort of inherent regional deficit. And I think it's inadvertent but it does come off a bit racist.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,756
Sonic Team don't know what to do with the series, and keeps trying new things just because, and in the process forgetting those things that worked. Doesn't help that Sonic probably doesn't get the time and budget it needs to shine.

Also Sega don't want a Mania 2 to outshine their Sonic Team 3D games again.
 

DanSensei

Member
Nov 15, 2017
1,213
They perfect the Sonic formula, then go off in a wildly different direction. Colors (original) and Generations were basically perfect Sonic games, then instead of doing that every few years, we got Lost World and Boom (the show was amazing, the game was not.)

Then they made Mania, which was also perfect, and I have serious doubts they'll make Mania 2.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,926
They perfect the Sonic formula, then go off in a wildly different direction. Colors (original) and Generations were basically perfect Sonic games, then instead of doing that every few years, we got Lost World and Boom (the show was amazing, the game was not.)

Then they made Mania, which was also perfect, and I have serious doubts they'll make Mania 2.
Lost World was basically Colors 2, the problem there is it was rushed out and badly underfunded. At least it was 60fps though.

A bit like Forces and Generations now that I think about it.
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,819
Maybe. Just maybe. Sonic doesn't inherently work in 3D and the dev resources & talent necessary to force it into a competent game is not usually financially viable. Hence why Sonic is forever stuck in the 90s licensed game hell (despite not being technically licensed)
This seems like a made up issue.

What about Sonic requires a trillion dollars to make good? It's ultimately just a racing game with branching paths, doesn't seem like some arcane concept forged in the aether.

And even if it did cost a lot money, it's Sonic! I think it deserves a fair amount of investment put into it.
 

Deleted member 17210

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,569
I see the "Sonic was never good" trolls didn't fail to show up.

Sega has a ton of properties. Most aren't even around anymore in any real way. Some of the outsourced classic franchises have turned out quite well but they still managed to approve an Alex Kidd in Miracle World remake with some notable flaws that weren't in the original.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,364
Lost World was basically Colors 2, the problem there is it was rushed out and badly underfunded. At least it was 60fps though.

A bit like Forces and Generations now that I think about it.

Lost world doesn't really have any relation to colours other than that Wisps are in it, but... That's not really a serious enough inclusion to make it "Colours 2".

Lost world could have been a solid base for something else, but they didn't do a good enough base to justify a follow up so...

And even if it did cost a lot money, it's Sonic! I think it deserves a fair amount of investment put into it.

"It's sonic" is part of the problem, the series has really struggled to get people to buy it, the games seen to have a soft ceiling around 2m that they struggle to get past, but people, at least in their nostalgic hearts*, want it to go toe to toe with mario, but that series can reasonably expect several times the sales, and at higher prices, and without giving a platform holder a cut.

*Or this might just be me, dunno lol
 

Lua

Member
Aug 9, 2018
1,951
Sonic is a budget-restricted franchise now, sega just probably figured out that they can get away relatively safely like this. They dont put too many resources on it, the game still sells a million or 2, and they can license the ip to movies and tv shows to keep the character relevant on pop culture if the game side goes sour.

I dont think we have forces sales numbers, but it is a fact sonic is not even close to mario nowadays, its really more like a kirby-tier franchise in videogame world rn. Which is funny to me because those 2 franchises have some similarities and you can see how hal does to the fanbase what sonic team could never do.
 

cyrribrae

Chicken Chaser
Member
Jan 21, 2019
12,723
While it's undoubtedly making less money now, I do wonder if the value and ongoing revenue from Sonic properties still outweighs that of Atlus and Yakuza, at the very least individually, if not combined. I have no sense of how big PSO2 is, but I imagine that also brings in a fair amount of money.
 

Astral

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
28,115
All they have to do is make it play like Generations without introducing a bunch of gimmicky bullshit.
 

Kahhhhyle

Member
Jun 8, 2021
2,174
A genuine answer. Not allocating enough budget, time and people to sonic has cough up with it. Its been catching up for a while , but its really getting there now. This combined with more aesthetic decisions like removing friends, their personalities and the interesting stories that spawned them as a means to scape goat elements that with thier removal or change might " magically make things good for people " not doing that is also making the back end worse too.
Sad that it took over 40 posts to get the right answer lol. OP if you're really interested, check out the What Happun episodes for Sonic 06 and Boom. Sega historically always rushed the games because of financial problems. Allegedly they're letting Rangers cook, we'll see how it turns out.

I'm also not a fan of Izuka or Sonic Team, but they made Generations, we know they're capable of making a good game lol.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Sonic is a budget-restricted franchise now, sega just probably figured out that they can get away relatively safely like this. They dont put too many resources on it, the game still sells a million or 2, and they can license the ip to movies and tv shows to keep the character relevant on pop culture if the game side goes sour.

I dont think we have forces sales numbers, but it is a fact sonic is not even close to mario nowadays, its really more like a kirby-tier franchise in videogame world rn. Which is funny to me because those 2 franchises have some similarities and you can see how hal does to the fanbase what sonic team could never do.
did Forces even make it to 1M? cause it seems like the history of poor games has caught up to it, Mania being the only one to hit 1M+ recently
 

Officer K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
413
Minimum effort for maximum profit. That's why they keep putting out so much trash for the last 20 or so years. And people are still eating it.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,926
did Forces even make it to 1M? cause it seems like the history of poor games has caught up to it, Mania being the only one to hit 1M+ recently
For spinoffs TSR also missed a million (dissapointing after both Sumo's previous Sega/Sonic racers did). I'd guess M&S Tokyo 2020 probably did though.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,950
Sonic's run his course. The formula's stale and the characters are lame.

That's the reality and it's time to move on.
 

Hentailover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,417
Moscow



Tbh, this particular video is not a very good example, at least 80% of the video has 0 player input, it's just character running forward, which is done automatically. There's like one jump and couple of frames of them wiggling left to right withput actually showing any obstacle dodging or anything like that. So not a very good demonstration of good gameplay qualities.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,970
Sega wants people to think they give a fuck about Sonic but they're not ready to spend the time and money and effort to do the things that would fix or even improve Sonic anymore. Not after their last few attempts proved misguided as fuck at best and only further damaged the franchise.

Outside of 2D throwbacks like Mania, Sonic will never be anything more than a joke. It's just how it is.
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,819
"It's sonic" is part of the problem, the series has really struggled to get people to buy it, the games seen to have a soft ceiling around 2m that they struggle to get past, but people, at least in their nostalgic hearts*, want it to go toe to toe with mario, but that series can reasonably expect several times the sales, and at higher prices, and without giving a platform holder a cut.

*Or this might just be me, dunno lol
"It's sonic" means that it deserves the time and effort needed to make it good. Unless you think doing that is part of the problem.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Tbh, this particular video is not a very good example, at least 80% of the video has 0 player input, it's just character running forward, which is done automatically. There's like one jump and couple of frames of them wiggling left to right withput actually showing any obstacle dodging or anything like that. So not a very good demonstration of good gameplay qualities.
the demo is out, so it's not like there aren't a lot of videos out there. either way, you may not like it, but 3D sonic's gameplay is popular, Sega just keeps botching it with many unforced errors

 

VinylCassette64

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,426
As plenty have already said. The answer is and will probably remain to be historical mismanagement. You have a select group of showrunners who arguably only still hold the job out of seniority more than anything else, coaching a internal department that only retains near-exclusive control over the Sonic IP because they have leverage of a once-famed studio brand.

And unfortunately this is a series that still makes money go brrrr from either games sales or merchandising, even on the rare days when the property can put out a total pile of shit. So the bosses of the bosses in charge have zero obligation to suddenly give a fuck and start making organizational changes.

Sega's neglect for Sonic rings especially true when you consider that in the few times their lack of quality control actually hurt their bottom line, their response has been to cut the franchise's budget instead of getting new producers.
 

ThatMeanScene

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,856
Miami, FL
Phantasy Star Online is being handled very poorly right now with NGS; hell I'd say it's been handled poorly for the last couple of Base PSO2's years as well. So it's not just Sonic.
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,503
Richmond, VA
there's a difference between doing nothing with a franchise and constantly messing it up though

every big company has franchises they never do stuff with

Well, the OP didn't say "every other Sega property that they are doing something with".

Not trying to single you out as others did the same thing, but what is this constant need to take a simple joke and play gotcha with it?

Yea. Almost did a spit take at that one.

Thank you, at least someone else got it.
 

TiagoCosta

User requested ban
Banned
Aug 3, 2018
2,844
At the end of the day Sonic Rangers is being given the dev time sonic never had before, so I'm guessing the movie success gave the team more time and budget to work with.

Considering they are likely using hedgehog engine 2, they won't lose time with the engine this time around either. It's looking up.