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Do you support the creation of a United States of Europe

  • Yes.

    Votes: 409 41.5%
  • No.

    Votes: 577 58.5%

  • Total voters
    986

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
Oh, I agree, the amount of people I see dumping on the South/South-West for being lazy, poor and spoiled is just gross. Like, Lombardy is rich as shit! C'mon people.
To be fair, the people of Lombardy also shit on the people in South of Italy. People in the north shitting on people in the south for being lazy is something universal within countries as well. (Or it is really a Europe-only thing?)

I imagine that a lot of the "two speed" Europe that people defend would just be the "rich" countries creating even a bigger gap with the "poor" in an economical sense.
There is much more to achieve. Like did you know the Benelux countries share the task to protect their airspace with Netherlands and Belgium switching every six months.
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
Yes, a federalised Europe is the way forward - especially as the United States is not a reliable ally anymore. Granted, this will take decades to achieve.
it's the only way for us to learn that humans are creatures who breed on conflict given a chance. a unified state would allow us to work on solving problems in the future to eventually set us up for moving beyond the world.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 31133

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 5, 2017
4,155
I'd love to see a united States of Europe in my lifetime. I don't think it will happen but it's a beautiful dream.

Thinking it would end nationalism is utterly deluded though Retroarnold . There's this little country called the United States of America, you might want to read up on it.

No need to be patronising, but when did I say the USE should be like the USA?
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
To be fair, the people of Lombardy also shit on the people in South of Italy. People in the north shitting on people in the south for being lazy is something universal within countries as well.
I just edited the post with a similar comment, but you're certainly correct (See: Belgium!)
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,263
Problem is you are changing the rules so that they either accept dictated new terms OR move to a worse condition but cannot keep the current arrangement (the only one they ever agreed to).
It's coercion.
You are using force.
So you're saying the countries wanting to change something should leave the EU to start a new thing because some others don't want to participate?

If we did that the UK would be the only EU member.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,440
To be fair, the people of Lombardy also shit on the people in South of Italy. People in the north shitting on people in the south for being lazy is something universal within countries as well. (Or it is really a Europe-only thing?)


There is much more to achieve. Like did you know the Benelux countries share the task to protect their airspace with Netherlands and Belgium switching every six months.

I did not know that. And I don't disagree that some countries should have different rules and regulations if that's what you are defending. One solution for everyone doesn't make sense (like the Euro showed). But dividing in "two speeds" giving the current separation that exists between north and south seems like a recipe for disaster.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
The EU died the moment they treated Greece like garbage when the crisis and treated every affected country like a spoiled child. From then on the sham was pretty apparent and now it's revealing again.


EDIT: The"Europe of two speeds" is just another way of setting the differences between countries and getting rid of the "weak ones" while the rich countries continue to rip the benefits. If that happens just end it. At least they won't need to pretend.

The is is the fundamental problem I see in EU. It's still a supranational entity and was intended to be an alternative to the United States of Europe. But when national governments have final say, and you get a regional hegemon like Germany running the show, then the supranational insitution is twisted to serve its needs.

A truly federated Europe would have a very influential Germany but it will have no say in bailouts. The terms of the bail out would be negotiated by the president/prime minister and finance minister of the USE whose loyalties is not to a single state but to the whole.

In that sense, Greece would not have felt as aggreieved and probably would not be in that position to begin with as a federal union would include massive transfers from the haves to the have not states as part of its normal annual budget.

Also unstated is the premise that national governments will get demoted to local governments and national budgets into local ones, with the USE taking most of the income into the federal coffers. I'm not sure how many countries would be in favor of that right now.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,440
The is is the fundamental problem I see in EU. It's still a supranational entity and was intended to be an alternative to the United States of Europe. But when national governments have final say, and you get a regional hegemon like Germany running the show, then the supranational insitution is twisted to serve its needs.

A truly federated Europe would have a very influential Germany but the terms of the bail out would be negotiated by the president/prime minister and finance minister of the USE and not the state of Germany, which is what countries would become essentially.

In that sense, Greece would not have felt as aggreieved and probably would not be in that position to begin with as a federal union would include massive transfers from the haves to the have not states.

Also unstated is the premise that national governments will get demoted to local governments and national budgets into local ones, with the USE taking most of the income into the federal coffers. I'm not sure how many countries would be in favor of that right now.

If countries stopped having that power you would see things like the ending of fiscal paradises and a lot of countries/companies would lose their marbles.

This setup benefits some countries in such a way that no alternative will exist.

Netherlands can't even agree to help countries affected by COVID without some oversight like we are misbehaved kids.
 

Astandahl

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,007
Maybe because the EU is divided between 27 member states. Unification of the states would fix a lot of problems with the current EU model.
No because there is no political union nor you can force it. Countries in EU have a long history with their unique traditions, languages, specific characteristics etc, and thus too many strong barrier for a true union. The EU is not the US, not even close.

In fact the EU which is a "forced" economic union is not working at all.
 

N64Controller

Member
Nov 2, 2017
8,318
Well there was an equally stupid thread once about how the us should annex canada and how it would be great and canada should be happy about it.

Listen, Freedom isn't gonna spread itself on its own. UNITE NORTH AMERICA!

The Cuba-USA connection would finally be repaired, a really emotional moment.
 

nikkop

Member
Mar 20, 2019
50
I addressed this in my OP.

Rather than calling the new states by their previous country names, you would just call them numbered regions. For example, the country formally known as France would be region 3. England region 14 etc.

You have no idea the king of violent reaction that kind of thing would trigger in France, really :D. Remove the name ? That is a far-right party's dream excuse to leave Europe once and for all.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,440
Trying to merge the political stories and legacy of 27 countries is a disaster waiting to happen lol

edit: it already happens but it's obfuscated by so many layers that it doesn't really matter. But if you had a "president" it would have to be very direct and oh boy.
 

Deleted member 2328

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,354
I did not know that. And I don't disagree that some countries should have different rules and regulations if that's what you are defending. One solution for everyone doesn't make sense (like the Euro showed). But dividing in "two speeds" giving the current separation that exists between north and south seems like a recipe for disaster.
There would be two speeds Europe only if there are members who do not wish for further integration. In practice this already happens with some members not in the Euro or in Schengen, for example. Some are out by choice, other are out by criteria.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 31133

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 5, 2017
4,155
I'd love to see a united States of Europe in my lifetime. I don't think it will happen but it's a beautiful dream.

Thinking it would end nationalism is utterly deluded though Retroarnold . There's this little country called the United States of America, you might want to read up on it.



Especially this. How on earth do you see this working? How do you plan to stop people calling France, France? That's before you even get to the nations that don't even "exist" but still have nationalists. Cornish nationalists, Sicilian nationalists, Cretan nationalists, etc.

I'm suggesting some 1984 shit where people are punished for using the word France. Just officially France would be region 4 or something like that.
I'll admit it was a bad idea. Let's move on from the numbered regions thing.


Problem is you are changing the rules so that they either accept dictated new terms OR move to a worse condition but cannot keep the current arrangement (the only one they ever agreed to).
It's coercion.
You are using force.

Then how would the EU get to a federal state in the first place? There would need to be a change and nations would need to decide if they accept it or not.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,440
There would be two speeds Europe only if there are members who do not wish for further integration. In practice this already happens with some members not in the Euro or in Schengen, for example. Some are out by choice, other are out by criteria.

if already happens what's the difference that people want? what is missing?

I can only assume that whatever is missing will hurt a lot of countries, or else it would already be happening.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
One of the things that need to be looked at, is how you want to grow the EU towards more integration. Like, my personal wish would be to change the unanimous rule to the double majority. Once you have that, fast track joining the former Balkan states and Mol. That way most European states are covered, even Norway and Swiss through the EEA.

This poll would be much more interesting with a breakdown by origin country of people voting.

Even more so by knowledge of how EU actually functions.

Yes, Belgium, and I consider myself fairly knowledgeable.

I did not know that. And I disagree that some countries should have different rules and regulations if that's what you are defending. One solution for everyone doesn't make sense (like the Euro showed). But dividing in "two speeds" giving the current separation that exists between north and south seems like a recipe for disaster.
The idea of a multispeed is that you allow countries that want to work together on specific things can already do so, and the others can sign on later on when they are ready. Like, at the core of the EU you have Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, Germany, France and Austria which are fairly collaborative with each other. Like if you would start an integrated military with them, you have a very strong base. At the same time, you can consider that countries at the border with Russia don't feel ready for this.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,440
One of the things that need to be looked at, is how you want to grow the EU towards more integration. Like, my personal wish would be to change the unanimous rule to the double majority. Once you have that, fast track joining the former Balkan states and Mol. That way most European states are covered, even Norway and Swiss through the EEA.





Yes, Belgium, and I consider myself fairly knowledgeable.


The idea of a multispeed is that you allow countries that want to work together on specific things can already do so, and the others can sign on later on when they are ready. Like, at the core of the EU you have Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, Germany, France and Austria which are fairly collaborative with each other. Like if you would start an integrated military with them, you have a very strong base. At the same time, you can consider that countries at the border with Russia don't feel ready for this.

Why is that the core of the EU?
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,074
Problem of the Europe of 2 Speeds is that it always makes it seem like a rich people's club that avoids one of the key current problems in Europe which is the lack of wealth redistribution inside the Euro. Yes, it is ok but it will just deepend the breach because the rich countries will keep on pulling the ladder away.

Then how would the EU get to a federal state in the first place? There would need to be a change and nations would need to decide if they accept it or not.
Just how it has been doing till now, slowly expanding the scope of the European Project. For instance:
-Joint Military needs to be improved (and there have been projects to completely redo this since Trump basically fucked up Nato). There has already been improvements on join "defense" of EU borders (even if it is still bad and some of the actions are disgusting as a left wing voter).
-Tighter economic policies, that avoid the creation of tax havens (or semi tax havens such as Ireland or Netherlands). This needs to be further pushed later on to a bigger EU budget to move towards major investments into poorer areas (instead of the current amount which is ... ok).
-Improvement of oversight of the EU Parliament.

The main current problem of the EU is the lack of power of the Parliament with the Council (that is the different presidents of the countries) actually holding most of it. Being seen as a bureacratic dream is not a good thing, and more power needs to be wrestled away from the Council.

Why is that the core of the EU?
Because they are "rich and stable" unlike us poor Southern Europeans.
 

Deleted member 8644

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
975
The idea of a multispeed is that you allow countries that want to work together on specific things can already do so, and the others can sign on later on when they are ready. Like, at the core of the EU you have Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, Germany, France and Austria which are fairly collaborative with each other. Like if you would start an integrated military with them, you have a very strong base. At the same time, you can consider that countries at the border with Russia don't feel ready for this.
Countries like Germany and Netherlands who don't want to have further integration as a way to aid other countries during the pandemic, while one of them is a tax haven and the other finances it's production-oriented economy with a lower value currency. I don't want to hear about those countries being at the forefront of EU integration ever again.
 

Deleted member 2328

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,354
Problem is you are changing the rules so that they either accept dictated new terms OR move to a worse condition but cannot keep the current arrangement (the only one they ever agreed to).
It's coercion.
You are using force.
There's a difference between negotiation and "force". Yes, in a negotiation one of the stakeholders may have the upper hand and another may be at a disadvantage. It may be unfair but you can't also force a status quo forever.
 

Proxy-Pie

Member
Apr 3, 2018
500
Not a European, but I don't think it's feasible. The different countries are very culturally diverse.
Suppose they decided to federate. What language would be used by the federal government? If you pick one, the other countries will feel like their culture is not represented in the Union. You can't use all of them for obvious reasons.
And this is just one issue.
 

gutter_trash

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
17,124
Montreal
User banned (permanent): Xenophobia. Long history of severe infractions.
dually here. Portuguese

No, I am against it.

Real Estate, housing and rent would get too discusting. Local people are going to get even more displaced than before erasing local populations.

Plus, you can't never trust Germany, instead of tanks it is banks
 
Last edited:

hiredhand

Member
Feb 6, 2019
3,147
I would say that currently there is a bigger change of the whole EU falling apart than it transforming into a single country. There is already a lot of pushback against the EU in some (or most?) countries and it would get way worse if someone in power even suggested this arrangement.

The idea that EU forming a single country would somehow end toxic nationalism is absurd. Even in an absurd dystopian scenario where people would forget all about their national cultures, heritages and languages, they would still be nationalistic for EU and against non-Europeans.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,731
Yeah, no. I voted no. I'm all for more cooperation. I really want a well functioning EU. Focus on fixing the internal problems of the EU and how it runs. Promoting the EU and all it does for people, because as we've seen (cough Brexit cough) people actually don't know what the EU does.

I wouldn't like to see new members or massive changes to EU structures, just builod on what's there for now. The migration crisis and the pandemic response shows we've a long way to go on some basic stuff.

Ireland isn't going to agree to an EU army any time soon. Maybe cooperation on peacekeeping, depends how its framed I suppose.
 

Deleted member 2328

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,354
Not a European, but I don't think it's feasible. The different countries are very culturally diverse.
Suppose they decided to federate. What language would be used by the federal government? If you pick one, the other countries will feel like their culture is not represented in the Union. You can't use all of them for obvious reasons.
And this is just one issue.
All languages are already in use by all EU institutions. Of course in public events English, French and German are most common in use.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,440
As with everything with EU the idea of separation always shows when the rich countries want to do something but the poor don't. Like the whole EU army.

when the poor want something but the rich don't like, like COVID relief, then the unanimity vote is working well.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,074
I would say that currently there is a bigger change of the whole EU falling apart than it transforming into a single country. There is already a lot of pushback against the EU in some (or most?) countries and it would get way worse if someone in power even suggested this arrangement.

The idea that EU forming a single country would somehow end toxic nationalism is absurd. Even in an absurd dystopian scenario where people would forget all about their national cultures, heritages and languages, they would still be nationalistic for EU and against non-Europeans.
Nah, EU hasnt been as popular as now, although it might change depending on the EU reaction to this crisis (it has been slow but now you see Germany starting to notice they should not put everything on fire as they agreed to finally give money instead of loans).

Yeah, no. I voted no. I'm all for more cooperation. I really want a well functioning EU. Focus on fixing the internal problems of the EU and how it runs. Promoting the EU and all it does for people, because as we've seen (cough Brexit cough) people actually don't know what the EU does.

I wouldn't like to see new members or massive changes to EU structures, just builod on what's there for now. The migration crisis and the pandemic response shows we've a long way to go on some basic stuff.

Ireland isn't going to agree to an EU army any time soon. Maybe cooperation on peacekeeping, depends how its framed I suppose.
An EU army is already happening, it is more about tighter cooperation and unification of standards and R&D (which has already started to happen with Spain, France, and Germany) for instance. Thank Trump fucking up NATO to make most of EU realice they might need to be better coordinated.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
Why is that the core of the EU?

Because they are "rich and stable" unlike us poor Southern Europeans.

Ever heard of the Inner Six? Since the formation of the EU, the Inner Six have been at the core of most integrations. There is nothing wrong about expecting that they will keep doing so. Due to the cultural evolution, it makes sense for Austria to take Italy's place. Italy's current climate is less pro-EU currently, while Austria is culturally and economically tight with Germany.
 

Tomasdk

Banned
Apr 18, 2018
910
I don't want it to be called United States of Europe because that leaves a bad connotation in my mind, seeing as the US is right now but I am in full support of a united europe. Unfortunately I don't see it happening in any near future so it's a long term dream.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,440
Ever heard of the Inner Six? Since the formation of the EU, the Inner Six have been at the core of most integrations. There is nothing wrong about expecting that they will keep doing so. Due to the cultural evolution, it makes sense for Austria to take Italy's place. Italy's current climate is less pro-EU currently, while Austria is culturally and economically tight with Germany.

did I travel back in time to 1984? I guess if you started first you are the core forever.

Again, it's clear that some countries want to their shit and couldn't care less about the EU countries that are different from them.

Go for it. Just separate the whole thing if that's the idea.