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Onix555

Member
Apr 23, 2019
3,381
UK
They helped commit genocide against people in Iraq, Syria and others. They should be tried by those they caused suffering to.

If they get brought back to the West, theyll get off far too easily; especially if they pull out a sob story that the media would eat up.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
All of them? should we take all of the children of every country touched by Isis? And why only those, let's take every child from every country touched by war or maybe only the ones born by European terrorist parents?

And after we take them, the question still stands. where should they go? Institution? Trump-like camps?

My question was "You guys have zero sympathy for the kids and babies? ". Stop it with the grandstranding and whataboutism.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,477
They helped commit genocide against people in Iraq, Syria and others. They should be tried by those they caused suffering to.

If they get brought back to the West, theyll get off far too easily; especially if they pull out a sob story that the media would eat up.

Not if those trials are not fair.
 

Acidote

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,997
Let the infant children back in our countries with full anonimity and have their records completely deleted from the system. If the parents want to save their children, this is the way. Considering how many good families want to adopt children, it wouldn't be a problem having them with actual loving families in a short amount of time.

Let the countries holding the adults do whatever they want with them. Whatever their justice system lets them to do. It's their country that was most damaged by this trash.
 

DarkDetective

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,906
The Netherlands
Same problem with German citizens. No easy answers. It's about children, too.



Pretty powerful documentary about such a case

Thank you for sharing this documentary. It must be heartbreaking for those families that are left behind.

Of course those underaged boys and girls who leave for Syria or Iraq will get homesick at some point, and I feel really sorry for her, but that's the personal responsibility everyone has for their own actions. Welcome to the grown-up world. Actions have consequences.

The western countries may want to emphasise the privilege more of living here, growing up in the safe, walled garden that we have created. Perhaps if we educate kids more about all the costs our parents, grandparents and ancestors have made to create this safe and peaceful place we live in right now, these teens may value that more, and perhaps we can prevent these scenarios to happen again. This isn't just about western boys and girls that get radicalised, but also children from salafistic parents that get a very traditional and strict nurture/upbringing outside school.
 
Aug 16, 2019
844
UK
My question was "You guys have zero sympathy for the kids and babies? ". Stop it with the grandstranding and whataboutism.
My whataboutism? What about yours? what kind of fucking question is that? Of course, we feel bad, we feel bad for many things, how is that question helping?

You are just here to show us your disgusting moral superiority without even for a moment stopping to your brain to think about a solution. The thread is full of interesting comment trying to tackle on a very difficult issue and then you come along with your But DOn'T yOu FeEl BAAAD???
 

DarkDetective

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,906
The Netherlands
Let the infant children back in our countries with full anonimity and have their records completely deleted from the system. If the parents want to save their children, this is the way. Considering how many good families want to adopt children, it wouldn't be a problem having them with actual loving families in a short amount of time.

Let the countries holding the adults do whatever they want with them. Whatever their justice system lets them to do. It's their country that was most damaged by this trash.
Allowing those children to "return" to the European country of their parents, while trying their parents in the Middle East, will bring its own problems when these kids grow up and learn about the truth when they're 9-13 years old. They'll get in an identity crisis. The IS babies is a very difficult topic.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Let the infant children back in our countries with full anonimity and have their records completely deleted from the system. If the parents want to save their children, this is the way. Considering how many good families want to adopt children, it wouldn't be a problem having them with actual loving families in a short amount of time.

Let the countries holding the adults do whatever they want with them. Whatever their justice system lets them to do. It's their country that was most damaged by this trash.
This is a good idea
 
Aug 16, 2019
844
UK
Let the infant children back in our countries with full anonimity and have their records completely deleted from the system. If the parents want to save their children, this is the way. Considering how many good families want to adopt children, it wouldn't be a problem having them with actual loving families in a short amount of time.

Let the countries holding the adults do whatever they want with them. Whatever their justice system lets them to do. It's their country that was most damaged by this trash.
The majority of children in Orphanage stay in an orphanage. There aren't many people willing to adopt, let alone a brown child. And that works for toddlers, what about older children which are impossible to be adopted and will feel homesick?
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,477
They'll get more justice than the people they butchered, raped and tortured.

That's not how the law works though is it. You don't pick and choose who gets a fair trial by the crime they are accused of doing.

I have no faith at all that Iraqi courts can fairly prove one's guilt so who exactly is being punished? Anyone believed to be isis is guilty, forget due process just kill them all.

That's a scary idea.
 
Oct 30, 2017
279
I am not very concerned for those who left their countries but how are the powers out there differentiating between free choice fighters and conscripted citizens of captured towns, cities and villages?

Considering how difficult it was for hardened fighting men and women to retake those places, how fiercely do they expect teens and young adults to resist when people are being beheaded and set on fire in their communities?
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,692
Put the kids up for adoption and try to find them good homes while letting the people that joined ISIS rot in prison for the rest of their lives. Easy.
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,692
[
Including the kids that are there with their mothers and other siblings?

Depends. If the mother was a fucking idiot and ran off from france or some other country to join up with isis let her face whatever punishment the law deems necessary. If its some poor kidnapped girl that was ropped into this shit I'd say let them be and help her and her children reestablish their lives. Tricky situation with the kids, as I said adoption or maybe distant family can help.
 

Acidote

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,997
The majority of children in Orphanage stay in an orphanage. There aren't many people willing to adopt, let alone a brown child. And that works for toddlers, what about older children which are impossible to be adopted and will feel homesick?

I don't have an answer for teenagers, but this is not true at least in Spain. There's a much bigger amount of families trying to adopt than children for adoption, a friend of mine (born in Ukraine, 9 when he came to Spain) was adopted back in the day and their parents had to wait five years to be able to adopt him. And they went the "quick way" (international adoption of a child, not a baby, with medical problems) for adoption because adopting a child from Spain in fewer than 7-8 years of wait was pretty much impossible. Things are supposedly even harder now because international adoptions have become harder (people here used to adopt Saharaui, Eastern European and Chinese children).

Edit:

Seeing this data I guess Spain can not be extrapolated. I did not know our international adoption rates were so high compared to other European countries. And they are not higher pretty much because of burocratic adoption costs and how hard it actually is.

And national adoptions are close to impossible in Spain because every chance and legal resource is exhausted before a permanent adoption.
 
Last edited:

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,134
How would they do that?
Honestly, it's probably less about stopping them and moreso by trying to address issues before it gets to the point of radicalization.

It's my understanding that French prisons have actually been great for Islamic terrorist sects. Part of the problem is that if you're a Muslim in prison - and you're disproportionately likely to be - and you find yourself needing spiritual help, you end up having none available other than the ones in the prison. Like how people go into U.S. prisons and leave in gang members, you go into French prisons and leave as fundamentalists.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,609
That's not how the law works though is it. You don't pick and choose who gets a fair trial by the crime they are accused of doing.
What law?
It's their jurisdiction. Their people died and bled. Iraq has every right to prosecute these people. These terror tourists get the justice they asked for. It's an ugly situation, but I won't lose a single millisecond of sleep over these murderous fuckers getting unfair trials.
 

Lumibolt

Self-requested ban
Banned
Sep 13, 2019
50
Just remember that certain countries do not grant citizenships to descendants just because a parent comes or descend from that country.
That's not how the law works though is it. You don't pick and choose who gets a fair trial by the crime they are accused of doing.

I have no faith at all that Iraqi courts can fairly prove one's guilt so who exactly is being punished? Anyone believed to be isis is guilty, forget due process just kill them all.

That's a scary idea.
This true, but considering people also broke the same laws that you talk about to gain enty into a country illegally, I don't think trying to appeal to people's human side is going to work.
 

BowieZ

Member
Nov 7, 2017
3,975
The adults who decided to join ISIS deserve life in prison, and eternal separation from their loved ones... so whichever country is most likely to mete such justice is ideal.

All children should be repatriated in their original country unless special circumstances warrant otherwise.
 
Aug 16, 2019
844
UK
I don't have an answer for teenagers, but this is not true at least in Spain. There's a much bigger amount of families trying to adopt than children for adoption, a friend of mine (born in Ucraine, 9 when he came to Spain) was adopted back in the day and their parents had to wait five years to be able to adopt him. And they went the "quick way" (international adoption of a child, not a baby, with medical problems) for adoption because adopting a child from Spain in fewer than 7-8 years of wait was pretty much impossible. Things are supposedly even harder now because international adoptions have become harder (people here used to adopt Saharaui, Eastern European and Chinese children).
Spain is the country with the highest rates of adoptions.

The problem is even if you delete their documents and identities people are still going to know that in an international efforts babies from those environments are coming, causing most likely the adoption numbers ( that outside Spain are not great already) to drop even lower.

Plus white and Asian children are always the "favourite" ones, for brown and black children is rough
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
Sounds about right.

I'd say the nations that did not do enough to prevent their citizens from leaving to Iraq and Syria to join ISIS should provide aid to those countries that are now saddled with children that no one wants.

The adult citizens who left for ISIS deserve nothing less than life in prison in the countries they harmed with their twisted terrorist org.
How do you prevent your citizens from leaving, exactly?
 

AaronD

Member
Dec 1, 2017
3,284
People saying they need to learn the consequences of their actions, how are they supposed to do that if they're executed or put in an Iraqi prison for life? A lot of the people in question are teenagers, and if you've been one or ever met one you should know they're not good at big decisions. That's why we try as minors and have statuary rape laws. Many of these teenagers feel completely alienated from their home country, and have been groomed either online or in person by someone they trusted to get stuck with this fate. Consequences? They've already faced more horrible consequences than most of us will ever know. We should at least give them the chance to learn from them.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,969
They should be tried back in France. Whatever they have done doesn't mean we should leave them here. We're a country holding justice, not karmic retribution. We deserve to own up to everyone's mistakes as a society and make sure due process is made. There is no benefit to leave them to their own devices. Bring them back home, try the offenders, care for the children. It's not a difficult decision unless you think citizens should not be treated equally. This country doesn't have a justice system for show.
 

M1chl

Banned
Nov 20, 2017
2,054
Czech Republic
User Banned (Permanent): Advocating for the death of children
Let go of kids and babies, sounds like Hitlerjugend, so fuck that. They will always feel the need to avenge their parents, so there is not really hope of them being normal. Sadly your parents just made a choices for you, which does not do you any favors. Many innocent kids/babies was killed because of your parents idiocy. And now I should feel sorry for you? Just because you were European, no. So now is your turn. Zero tolerance, kill them all, wipe this shit of the planet earth. And possibly religion with it*, I don't like fairy tales which does kill people. And yes, life is unfair, deal with it.

*I don't care if "they are really not the Muslims" who the fuck cares, they acted by their version of fairy tale, probably written by a 600 A.D. rapist and masochist, so what. Why religion always get the special treatment, as it´s something which excuses your behavior. An no this is not targeted to Muslims specifically, but people of all religions. You gonna die some day and that's going to be nothing and you would not even care, deal with it.
 

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
All of them? should we take all of the children of every country touched by Isis? And why only those, let's take every child from every country touched by war or maybe only the ones born by European terrorist parents?

And after we take them, the question still stands. where should they go? Institution? Trump-like camps?
What the hell is this nonsense...

Guess that's a "no" on the question that DiipuSurotu asked then.
 

Rackham

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,532
Fuck that lady who said they are just the Islamic State and it's ok to not agree with everything about someone/thing. What kind of both sides is that. She wasn't saying that when ISIS was killing everyone
 

Ushay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,382
I'm not sure what to think here. The men, fine they should face their crimes.
Women (particularly the young) and children? I don't know man it's a tough call..

With regards to children ie infants specifically, there are some seriously callow responses here.
 

LastCaress

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
1,682
At best, the french authorities should send money and legal aides to coordinate with local lawyers to offer proper defense (if possible) to those charged. They should be tried in Iraq because they committed crimes against iraqi citizens in Iraq. But I really doubt french authorities are really interested in helping murderous traitors.
 

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,403
Athens, Greece
We, as democratic society, should always try to make the lives of infants and children as pleasant as possible and prepare them to be the best citizens they can be. That inculdes these children which are victims of ISIS too.

If we as society can not help the innocent victims then what good we are for?
If we do not protect them then we have failed, we the "civilized" ones.

No sympathy for anyone participated to attrocities and terrorist acts though. They deserve to rot in a prison cell for the best part of their miserable lives.

If the mothers that were not involved in any crimes want to return it would be best if they allow them on monitored environment of fear of relapsing to this idiocy.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
All of them? should we take all of the children of every country touched by Isis? And why only those, let's take every child from every country touched by war or maybe only the ones born by European terrorist parents?

And after we take them, the question still stands. where should they go? Institution? Trump-like camps?

I'm pretty sure they're talking about, as an example, the children of French nationals who joined ISIS. There isn't much of an argument against bringing those children home and putting them into adoption or the care of close family members. We shouldn't however allow those French nationals who joined ISIS to use their children as an bartering chip to also return to France. It isn't their home any more. Not since the minute they decided that France was their enemy.
 

G.O.O.

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,089
It's not about the children, and barely about human rights.

These people have been radicalized, they're dangerous. The question you want to ask is : is it safer to keep them in France, which is the country they want to target, or in Iraq or Syria. Because if the iraqi or syrian government want to trade them against hostages, they have no reason not to do it. And by the way, that already happened : https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...26tYOrW9mQijmB3j3MEk8GAbr0zJ027oXncoU-vYBvMk4

A French prison is not just "more human" than a syrian one, it's also more secure and the french will have good reasons to keep them locked up. It'll also be easier to get intel about their ties to terrorists who are still out.

Of course, that also means other stuff, like France will have to pay for their detention and will be more at risk if they manage to get out. My point is that it's a complex issue.
 
Aug 16, 2019
844
UK
I'm pretty sure they're talking about, as an example, the children of French nationals who joined ISIS. There isn't much of an argument against bringing those children home and putting them into adoption or the care of close family members. We shouldn't however allow those French nationals who joined ISIS to use their children as an bartering chip to also return to France. It isn't their home any more. Not since the minute they decided that France was their enemy.
There isn't much of an argument, the argument is about how to do that. You are effectively bringing back orphans, is it really that a solution? Putting them in an orphanage? as Said before adoptions rates are generally low and adoptions rates for brown children even lower. And this works with children from 0 to 2 years old.

What about older children? Are we going full Trump forcing a separation? What about the 6-7 years old? or even the 14 years old that moved there when they were 10?

How can you tackle that issue?

Parents are clearly using the children as mean to get back, what if France says yes to children but no to the parents and the parents then decide to keep them, do we send military to retrieve them?

And for 1 thing we can think of there are at least 2 exceptions and particular cases
 

Keikaku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,809
They should be tried back in France. Whatever they have done doesn't mean we should leave them here. We're a country holding justice, not karmic retribution. We deserve to own up to everyone's mistakes as a society and make sure due process is made. There is no benefit to leave them to their own devices. Bring them back home, try the offenders, care for the children. It's not a difficult decision unless you think citizens should not be treated equally. This country doesn't have a justice system for show.
They committed their crimes abroad, so they should be tried there also. They would only get a slap on the wrists in France because whatever they did is hard to prove.

Them going to French prison would make the radicalization problem even worse.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,568
Lol at people saying give them another chance.Would you have said give SS soldiers a second chance so they can learn from their mistakes?

These people literally joined a regime that genocided the Yazidi. I read about a women that came back to germany a few months ago and got arrested because she watched her yazidi slave get raped and wither away in the raqqa sun because they bound her by a flock in the desert sun and gave her no water.

Fuck those people.
 

Fierro

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
960
Lol at people saying give them another chance.Would you have said give SS soldiers a second chance so they can learn from their mistakes?

These people literally joined a regime that genocided the Yazidi. I read about a women that came back to germany a few months ago and got arrested because she watched her yazidi slave get raped and wither away in the raqqa sun because they bound her by a flock in the desert sun and gave her no water.

Fuck those people.

For adults, I have no sympathy. For the kids, fuck, it isn't easy to decide their fate. I am curious about this situation, and will follow it. It really breaks my heart to see these kids condemned because their parents were fuck heads.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,969
They committed their crimes abroad, so they should be tried there also. They would only get a slap on the wrists in France because whatever they did is hard to prove.

Them going to French prison would make the radicalization problem even worse.
They're tried in another country entirely than where they committed their crimes and the sentence is death penalty. France doesn't, and shouldn't support death penalty. This is not justice.

They would not get a slap in the wrist, this is stupid to say that, and a radicalization problem doesn't mean we should a turn a blind eye to the plight of french citizens just because we have a full plate here. Either we care for everyone or we care for no one.
 

Phantom

Writer at Jeux.ca
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,446
Canada
That's what happens when you turn your back on democracy and basically everything but Islam. Can't say I feel sorry: some of these fighters might even have killed innocents or participated in atrocities. Now that they lost, they want back like nothing happened.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,969
Would you have said give SS soldiers a second chance so they can learn from their mistakes?
They're systemically dealt with a death sentence and they have only two minutes to defend themselves in a trial. Not all crimes deserves the same punishment, not to say none of them deserves capital punishment. A radicalized woman being roped to join ISIS and getting raped and forced to conceive children for years should get the death sentence just like an ISIS fighter committing atrocities to you?

That's just dumb, SS soldiers were known as such and they had a 2-months trials. This is not the same thing.