Eurogamer: Interview with Kareem Choudhry talking about xCloud. Talks latency, speed and "death of consoles"

Theorry · Mar 19, 2019

More in the link at the bottom

How's it going with your solution to latency here? It's still an issue with many services we've seen already, so what kind of latency will we see on xCloud, and how are you going about minimising that?

Kareem Choudhry: From the data centres we have near Washington we're seeing really good latency - less than 10 milliseconds that's being added by the traversal to the cloud. Frankly we find more latency in the Bluetooth stack, connected to an Android phone.

What kind of connections will you be requiring for this?

Kareem Choudhry: We hope to get down to single digit mbps. I think some of the demos we've shown so far have probably gone down to nine, 10mbps. Some of the work that we're doing with Microsoft research, I think we'll be able to get a really good video feed probably around six to five.

How do services like GamePass sit alongside xCloud?

Kareem Choudhry: Obviously GamePass is our subscription service, it's really where we want to deliver great experiences and value to our customers. And right now it's a console product - we have aspirations to bring it to more users and more places. Project xCloud and GamePass are going to co-exist in some reasonable way.

A broader philosophical question - some people see cloud gaming as the death of console, or the start of it. Is it that extreme?

Kareem Choudhry: It's not that extreme at all! I've been building consoles for 15 years - we're not getting out of the console business, we spoke about it in our xCloud videos. We love our consoles, we love that business, and we're super proud to have the most powerful console out on the market place today and that leadership position we hope to retain going foward. And I also believe your best premium experience is going to be dedicated hardware running under your TV in your living room. It's an 'and' conversation, not an 'or' conversation. Everyone loves to jump to the death of consoles, and I think it makes a great headline, but we don't think that way at all.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2019-03-19-microsofts-cloud-gains-substance

upinsmoke · Mar 19, 2019

As I've just pointed out on Twitter, EG couldn't help themselves but have a dig ar another console manufacturer halfway through that piece.

Pathetic

cw_sasuke · Mar 19, 2019

Death of MS consoles maybe.

Dr. Caroll · Mar 19, 2019

cw_sasuke said:
Death of MS consoles maybe.

Did you read the article?

Rezsolution · Mar 19, 2019

upinsmoke said:
As I've just pointed out on Twitter, EG couldn't help themselves but have a dig ar another console manufacturer halfway through that piece.

Pathetic

He's totally right though. Difference between the Pro and the X fan sounds are night and day. It's hard not to notice just how much quieter Microsoft's consoles are, and this is coming from someone who's PlayStation and Nintendo this generation.

Xeontech · Mar 19, 2019

"we're super proud to have the most powerful console out on the market place today and that leadership position we hope to retain going foward."

Hoo boy that war is goin strong lol

modiz · Mar 19, 2019

10ms lag? yea right. that demo they showcased looked nothing like that level of lag.

gofreak · Mar 19, 2019

Other interesting bits:

'Android phones' are their first target - hence they're happy to start with Xbox One S based hardware and game streams

It sounds like it's up to publishers how or if content will be exposed on xCloud. ("I built a platform and it's in a way that all the content could come and participate. It's up to the IP owners, they'll be the ones who decide when and how it gets exposed.")

Also even seems to leave it up in the air how gamepass will work with it.

Now I'm a bit confused. I assumed the business model was going to be 'buy your Xbox One game as normal, play it via xCloud if you have a xCloud sub'. Or in other words, streaming access to your existing Xbox One library.

Now I'm not sure that's the model, or if it'll be as universal as initially suspected.

modiz said:
10ms lag? yea right. that demo they showcased looked nothing like that level of lag.

That's a comment that hides a multitude of things and doesn't tell the whole story. A ping of 10ms to a nearby datacenter is perfectly reasonable, and I expect it's what he's referring to there. But that's not nearly the entire latency story wrt game streaming.

NippleViking · Mar 19, 2019

> Reads the title
Ooo boy, here we go.
> Reads the article
"It's not that extreme at all!"

Thank god they're not that shortsighted. Consoles might be superfluous eventually, but not this decade.

GhostTrick · Mar 19, 2019

Even if we manage to eliminate the input lag, this is still a terrible solution because of the image quality being degraded... and most importantly, this is literally the death of preservation, ownership and retrogaming.

If we're moving toward a streaming based future, it means older games will be moved out from the service. And as opposed to movie streaming, there's no way to save it.

Streaming my own content from my own device ? Sure.
Streaming a catalog from distant servers ? Nah.

Yerffej · Mar 19, 2019

Single digits eventually? That would be pretty dang appealing.

BernardoOne · Mar 19, 2019

modiz said:
10ms lag? yea right. that demo they showcased looked nothing like that level of lag.

10ms is definitely doable, and a conference room is like the worst possible place to demo it.

EightBitNate · Mar 19, 2019

cw_sasuke said:
Death of MS consoles maybe.

Literally the opposite of what he's saying.

Golvellius · Mar 19, 2019

upinsmoke said:
As I've just pointed out on Twitter, EG couldn't help themselves but have a dig ar another console manufacturer halfway through that piece.

Pathetic

I enjoyed reading that paragraph.

Zonal Hertz · Mar 19, 2019

upinsmoke said:
As I've just pointed out on Twitter, EG couldn't help themselves but have a dig ar another console manufacturer halfway through that piece.

Pathetic

Pathetic? The Xbox one X is a masterclass in hardware design and the PS4 pro is a joke how loud it is. Sorry but it's hardly pathetic what he said, more an objective fact and an appreciative comment to someone who made the best console currently in the market.

I think anyone reasonable agrees cloud gaming won't kill hardware gaming. It will just open gaming up to more casual users/people who aren't as fussed about performance.

Ambient80 · Mar 19, 2019

Dr. Caroll said:
Did you read the article?

That would make too much sense.

Tangyn · Mar 19, 2019

Latency is literally my only issue with this stuff - if someone fixes that without making games WORSE to balance it then I'm all in.

cw_sasuke · Mar 19, 2019

Dr. Caroll said:
Did you read the article?

Yeah, if streaming takes off in the next decade i can see it resulting in the death of MS consoles.
I dont think Sony or Nintendo are in the same position as MS for such a leap, so the hardware buisness will be more important for them.

EightBitNate said:
Literally the opposite of what he's saying.

He is talking about the current and next-gen.
We already know that hardware will be important for MS since they are about to announce Scarlet soon and delivered the One X - overall though i see a death of hardware/consoles much more likely on MS end compared to the other twos.

PurelyChris · Mar 19, 2019

upinsmoke said:
As I've just pointed out on Twitter, EG couldn't help themselves but have a dig ar another console manufacturer halfway through that piece.

Pathetic

No need to be so precious. Simple fact is the Pro is too loud, despite being a much fatter (and uglier) console than the X. There isn't some great anti-PS4 conspiracy...

gofreak · Mar 19, 2019

BernardoOne said:
10ms is definitely doable, and a conference room is like the worst possible place to demo it.

A 10ms packet ping, yes, or maybe even 10ms per-frame 'traversal time' over the network (server->client network traversal).

However total additional round-trip latency of that order seems very doubtful, regardless of how close you are to the DC. That response is carefully worded. There are a number of extra steps involved in streaming outside of the raw network traversal, each of which alone, outside of the raw frame download time, could take double digit milliseconds, and not all of which are controllable through optimisation by MS.

(Side note, but I expect anywhere on MS campus to have a very good network locality to their washington DCs)

Anthony Hopkins · Mar 19, 2019

"Project xCloud and GamePass are going to co-exist in some reasonable way."

Called it.

Deleted member 10551 · Mar 19, 2019

BernardoOne said:
10ms is definitely doable, and a conference room is like the worst possible place to demo it.

It smells of the Tokyo to Osaka tests JPN fighting game devs used for their netcode.

This just flat-out won't work in most of the US, at least not without a complete network overhaul nationally.

PurelyChris · Mar 19, 2019

modiz said:
10ms lag? yea right. that demo they showcased looked nothing like that level of lag.

You got proof of anything different? And it's been agreed quite broadly that the showcase demo was very well done with a very small amount of lag.

Prine · Mar 19, 2019

Xeontech said:
"we're super proud to have the most powerful console out on the market place today and that leadership position we hope to retain going foward."

Hoo boy that war is goin strong lol

?

He's factually correct, and then proceeds to express an ambition. What warmongering is taking place here?

modiz · Mar 19, 2019

PurelyChris said:
You got proof of anything different? And it's been agreed quite broadly that the showcase demo was very well done with a very small amount of lag.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/pr...rizon-4-public-trials-later-this-year.104968/
no, most in that thread are saying that the demo is either fake or has riciulous lag.

CaviarMeths · Mar 19, 2019

First question in the OP, guys.

From the data centres we have near Washington we're seeing really good latency - less than 10 milliseconds that's being added by the traversal to the cloud.

plié · Mar 19, 2019

cw_sasuke said:
Death of MS consoles maybe.

They won't be getting out of the console business. Period. This has been stated over, and over again.

modiz said:
10ms lag? yea right. that demo they showcased looked nothing like that level of lag.

Kareem Choudhry: From the data centres we have near Washington we're seeing really good latency - less than 10 milliseconds that's being added by the traversal to the cloud. Frankly we find more latency in the Bluetooth stack, connected to an Android phone.

What datacenter were they using for that demo? Do you know?

modiz said:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/pr...rizon-4-public-trials-later-this-year.104968/
no, most in that thread are saying that the demo is either fake or has riciulous lag.

And this is just some conspiracy bullshit lol.

khamakazee · Mar 19, 2019

cw_sasuke said:
Death of MS consoles maybe.

Better tell all those publishers out there they had better pull their games on consoles unless they make their games exclusive.

Yearsoflurking · Mar 19, 2019

Guess we just have to wait to see , I assume it'll vary between 10-20 ms which isn't too bad maybe but higher depending on area

christocolus · Mar 19, 2019

Interesting stuff. Sign me up for the test run. I hope they're able to pull this off.

Deleted member 2791 · Mar 19, 2019

10 mbps would be a 1.25 megabyte/second download speed connection, which would be a really low treshold for that. A bit of a hard time to believe it could be that low (Google Project Stream needed at least twice that) but it'd be rad.

blitzblake · Mar 19, 2019

Rezsolution said:
He's totally right though. Difference between the Pro and the X fan sounds are night and day. It's hard not to notice just how much quieter Microsoft's consoles are, and this is coming from someone who's PlayStation and Nintendo this generation.

For an extra $100 and 2nd to market, you better hope that fan is whisper quiet.

Shpeshal Nick · Mar 19, 2019

modiz said:
10ms lag? yea right. that demo they showcased looked nothing like that level of lag.

Yeah. It involved Bluetooth which added another layer of lag.

He literally says that in the OP that they found the Bluetooth stack having more latency. It's part of the reason they never added Bluetooth to their consoles. Because Bluetooth doesn't have great latency.

texhnolyze · Mar 19, 2019

"It's an 'and' conversation, not an 'or' conversation."

This is the key.

Dr. Caroll said:
Did you read the article?

With that kind of headline, I wouldn't be surprised if it attracts drive-by posts with ease.

gofreak · Mar 19, 2019

plié said:
What datacenter were they using for that demo? Do you know?

One would presume the closest xCloud-serving DC. If Inside is filmed in Redmond I guess that was demoed off the washington DC.

Yearsoflurking said:
Guess we just have to wait to see , I assume it'll vary between 10-20 ms which isn't too bad maybe but higher depending on area

That would be ridiculously good compared to other services (60ms-100ms+ seems to be the rough range on Project Stream and PS Now according to Digital Foundry's tests).

But that's not what it'll be. And that's nothing like what was shown in the video on Inside Xbox. I played Dirt 4 on PSNow over wifi last night and it had better latency by the looks of that - although I guess I might expect that since that's a 60fps game, and Forza is 30.

I would bet he's referring to ping or perhaps to one-way frame download times, and not overall additional latency, which makes his answer a bit of a fudge.

MrHedin · Mar 19, 2019

GhostTrick said:
... and most importantly, this is literally the death of preservation, ownership and retrogaming.

I may be in the minority on this board with this but outside of here I don't think most people care about those types of things. I have a bunch of old consoles and games in a box in a closet and I haven't booted a single one up and played any of those old games since they got put in those boxes originally. Most people are like this I believe (again maybe not on this board but among the general population), once they get the newest generation and pick up a few games for that generation their old console effectively goes out to pasture.

Zonal Hertz said:
I think anyone reasonable agrees cloud gaming won't kill hardware gaming. It will just open gaming up to more casual users/people who aren't as fussed about performance.

I think it could eventually kill hardware gaming but we're talking a couple of console generations from now at least before that happens. However you're absolutely correct that it would open up gaming to a lot more people. A $100-150 streaming box with a controller which you could use a subscription service on (and probably still get individual games as well) pretty much takes away almost any barrier of entry into gaming.

TripaSeca · Mar 19, 2019

This latency talk reminds me of sound systems power measurements: RMS vs PMPO.
They'll announce values as low as 10ms on extremely favourable conditions, but the reality will be of 10-100ms or even more, especialy when the mobility factor gets in place.

upinsmoke · Mar 19, 2019

PurelyChris said:
No need to be so precious. Simple fact is the Pro is too loud, despite being a much fatter (and uglier) console than the X. There isn't some great anti-PS4 conspiracy...

I'm not precious, I also own an X but it's so fanboy-ish throwing that comment in there, needless actually.

Theorry · Mar 19, 2019

plié said:
What datacenter were they using for that demo? Do you know?

Pretty sure its Quincy. The show is recorded in Redmond. So that makes its 156 miles to the datacenter.

Zonal Hertz · Mar 19, 2019

MrHedin said:
I think it could eventually kill hardware gaming but we're talking a couple of console generations from now at least before that happens. However you're absolutely correct that it would open up gaming to a lot more people. A $100-150 streaming box with a controller which you could use a subscription service on (and probably still get individual games as well) pretty much takes away almost any barrier of entry into gaming.

Yup, I mentioned this to my dad who has never been into gaming. He said he would give something like this a go as he is sick of TV these days but can't justify buying a console. I think it will really enable a lot of super casual but curious people.

upinsmoke said:
I'm not precious, I also own an X but it's so fanboy-ish throwing that comment in there, needless actually.

I'd actually say your reaction is a lot more fanboyish/protective than the actual statement he made.

Dr. Caroll · Mar 19, 2019

The thing about streaming as a solution is that it's going to be an addition to existing systems for a few years at least, but we will eventually see a tipping point akin to the tragic death of video rental stores. Humans are kinda lazy, and convenience trumps things like quality and variety. Things like image quality, latency, preservation -- these are relatively minor concern for casual audiences. The popularity of consoles even though they offer a markedly inferior experience to gaming PCs is driven by a number of factors, but one of them is simple convenience.

Purists care about the image quality of Frozen 2. But do mass audiences really care if the only way to watch Frozen 2 is via bitrate-starved streaming video via Disney+?

Deleted member 41520 · Mar 19, 2019

GhostTrick said:
Even if we manage to eliminate the input lag, this is still a terrible solution because of the image quality being degraded.../QUOTE]
most users don't care about image quality whatsoever

as long as it's not potato quality they don't bat an eyelid

Yukinari · Mar 19, 2019

Onlive and PS Now were so awful that youre gonna need more than words to convince people. Which means trying it for themselves. If they even can with their internet speeds.

TheGhost · Mar 19, 2019

Xeontech said:
"we're super proud to have the most powerful console out on the market place today and that leadership position we hope to retain going foward."

Hoo boy that war is goin strong lol

It's factually true though

You're reaching for drama that isn't there.

Deleted member 15428 · Mar 19, 2019

Have they talked about owning your games?

Anthony Hopkins · Mar 19, 2019

Yukinari said:
Onlive and PS Now were so awful that youre gonna need more than words to convince people. Which means trying it for themselves. If they even can with their internet speeds.

PSNow is pretty good played killzone shadow fall and did not notice the lag.

Windu · Mar 19, 2019

says blutooth is the biggest latency provider. wonder if they use something else going forward. wonder what that google stream controller uses.

maybe a wired usb c controller for phones?

Yukinari · Mar 19, 2019

Anthony Hopkins said:
PSNow is pretty good played killzone shadow fall and did not notice the lag.

If its not latency then its pricing cause PSNow costs way too much for most people.

Lukas Taves · Mar 19, 2019

That 10ms of latency is insane.

No way they got it that low

pswii60 · Mar 19, 2019

I said in the last thread that a big issue playing games on Android phones is that the Bluetooth is laggy on them and not designed for gaming. Good to see Microsoft acknowledge this here. Even on my S9 the lag using a Bluetooth controller is annoying.

Hopefully phones in future will be designed with controller gaming in mind.

upinsmoke said:
As I've just pointed out on Twitter, EG couldn't help themselves but have a dig ar another console manufacturer halfway through that piece.

Pathetic

cw_sasuke said:
Death of MS consoles maybe.

blitzblake said:
For an extra $100 and 2nd to market, you better hope that fan is whisper quiet.

Lol I'm baffled why some people are so triggered in this thread.

Eurogamer: Interview with Kareem Choudhry talking about xCloud. Talks latency, speed and "death of consoles"

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