Puerto Rico official languages are both Spanish and English, even a lot of the population is not fluent in English.
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EU draft declaration sets out stricter rules on migrant integration - includes edict on learning language of new home country
- Thread starter SilentPanda
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It's disappointing to me that people don't see that this is very obviously something that kinda sounds good on paper and in a void, but will, in practice, just be used as an excuse for further discrimination against immigrants.
Because some people use the law to their ends, while people who actually know the law try to rescue the people. And the same people who want people dead in the sea close the places where the refugees learn the language, get skills, have a shot at living in Europe. How ironic is that?
Maybe so, but many of them speak foreign languages and the government doesn't force them to learn the language.
In case of the first one then if they desire to become a citizen they will very much have to learn the language yes. Source: Teaching it.
I'm not American and the racist rhetoric in this thread is abhorrent.
The hypocrisy of making one group of people learn the language because otherwise they can't possibly function or communicate, and not the other one, genius.
The entire argument here is that they need to learn the language or else they can't possibly function in their day-to-day lives... when there's a large group of people already doing just that and getting about just fine.
Y'all just being racist lmao
They clearly wouldn't be able to or this wouldn't exist. People saying this would help them in their new home are ignoring that the subtext is, "It would help them by making me more comfortable." The sole thing this would accomplish is having more power over another's actions. I can already see someone responding, "I know you can understand me and if you don't I'm going to report you," for a person not wanting to interact with someone in their native language. Shit akin to that happens in the US now for petty reasons all the time. This just gives further power to assholes to ruin someone's life.
Macron mentions the idea is about allowing sanctions against those who don't follow through. This isn't about benefitting people and making their lives easier. It's about punishing them for not standing in line, including their own citizens who aren't immigrants.
His words are clear:
That does not provide the freedom you talk about. It is actively punishing people for supporting it, including organizations that seek to help others who fall short of this. It's not normal.
What people do you think are writing this law? And stop acting above Americans, Europe is very very very racist. And I say that as a person from Northern Ireland. At least I'm not acting blind to my countries failings like you.
Yo, I'm agreeing with you lol.
My point is that the Western world came to other peoples lands to force their language and culture on them while not learning theirs, this is the same thing in reverse. Even 20 years ago you'd be hard pressed to get translated docs because the resistance to accommodate for language was so thorough.
Considering how the historical context led to this migrant situation, it's gross.
Finland provides one at least when they're interacting with the welfare agency, but that's still leaving most of the usual life out of it. They wouldn't be able to interact with the local populace at all.
Oh we all share many faults, including systemic racism. That doesn't mean that it's ok to have infibulation legal.
"Provide support but expect more in return" kind of says it all. Proper integration is a two-way street.
I've been in Mexico for over a year and I run most of the errands and only have a tiny bit of Spanish and I've been doing just fine. I work from home. Shopping require hardly any communication - you grab the stuff you want, you take it to the counter, and you pay. The uber app means that the uber driver already knows my destination before I get in the car. Kids are home schooled (and are studying Spanish). I have a wife & a kid and I like videogames - I wouldn't be socializing in an English-speaking country, much less a foreign one. I've learned a handful of words & phrases since arriving & I have a phone with google translate. Where I live has more foreigners than most cities here do, so there's a good number of people who speak English. And my wife knows some Spanish so she can deal with harder stuff.
I haven't tried harder to learn more Spanish because I don't know how much longer we're going to be here and also, I'm already bilingual and I know how hard it is to learn a language. And I figure, I've got Mandarin & a bit of Japanese, my wife has Spanish & French, and we've both got English as our native language, so between the two of us, there's a good chance that one of us will be able to communicate with the people we meet in countries we go to.
Only if they're not given the chance to actually learn the language, which could probably happen, sure, but then that's the problem and not the language requirement. The other proposals in that draft are far worse, starting with the effective ban on encryption. Basing integration on vaguely-defined "values" can also be abused, but again, that should then just be basic well-defined "values" like democracy and such things.
And sure, there are a lot of natural-born citizens who don't adhere to these values, but how's that supposed to be an argument? "We already have shitty people here, so everyone, just come on in"? You can't exactly deport German Neonazis.
Yes, that's having citizens and non-citizens, like every other country on Earth. Guess what, all non-citzens are ultimately threatened with something citizens could never be threatened with: deportation.
If they are making migrants get religous education, why are they not also doing this to people who are on the far right who also have certain ideologies that would be deemed "bad"
I thought Europe already had these sorts of language requirements? When I was looking for places to immigrate to if Trump won again, I'm pretty sure that I saw Italy required you to learn Italian?
Wonder if it's a distinction between immigrants (choosing to relocate) and refugees (didn't have a choice)?
Wonder if it's a distinction between immigrants (choosing to relocate) and refugees (didn't have a choice)?
You know you go to jail if you go around parading as a fascist or a nazi either in Italy or Germany, do you?
You mean de-radicalization training for far right extremists? I do think that happens, but if it doesn't, it would certainly be a good idea. Any extremist is a potentially dangerous extremist.
This deserves to be on @ButNoPotato at twitter dot com. You're so close to getting it! You can do it!
Oh okay lol my bad. Right they definitely did. shit like this is not fixing the issue, most of these people would gladly be fine living in their home countries but look at what the fuck happened to Syria and other places. Because of the west. Like this shit is wild to me. Its a problem the west created and they dont want to deal with it. Just beat these people up even more. Every single culture has shitty ass people. thinking just because they speak the language or get religious education and that fixes things is just colonialism in another form treating them like they are barbarians and shit.
If you move to a country for a longer period of time or to join the work force you should learn the language 🤷 so there should be mandatory (but free) classes so you can feel comfortable talking in the countries language at least on an basic level.
It's the same thing I did when I moved to another country. I sat down and learned the language.
It's the same thing I did when I moved to another country. I sat down and learned the language.
Germany has pretty strict laws and our education system makes sure that you know that Nazis suck. (doesn't work everytime though, look at AfD)
Furthermore:
Volksverhetzung, in English "incitement of the masses", "instigation of the people" (the official English translation of the German Criminal Code uses "incitement to hatred"[1][2]), is a concept in German criminal law that refers to incitement to hatred against segments of the population and refers to calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them, including assaults against the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population.[1][2][3]
It is often applied to, though not limited to, trials relating to Holocaust denial in Germany. The criminal code (Strafgesetzbuch) Chapter 7 (Offences against public order), Paragraph 130 (Incitement to hatred) of the Federal Republic of Germany defines when a person is guilty of Volksverhetzung.[1][2][3]
(...)
Whosoever, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace:
(...)
shall be liable to imprisonment from three months to five years.[1][2]
Volksverhetzung - Wikipedia
And in Poland and Austria you are given a governmental position.
I'm unclear on this as well, but I hope that this is the case.
This is why if they are going to do these things it cannot just target ONE part of their society. I'd actually be okay if it was a broad de-radicalization thing for far right fucks who are no different than the other people who use terror. But this is not whats happening here.
This is not a uniform thing and you know it.
This doesn't mean you have to forget your Original language lol. As long as government provides free language instructors I'm okay with this
The language thing sounds okay to an extent...learning languages isn't something everybody is good at, so for a new immigrant I don't think that it is fair to force them to know it. We have so much tech now that getting around language barriers is much easier. I think at the very least mandatory language lessons paid for by the government would be a better way to bring this about because it would also help the community of new citizens meet people like them and better their skills with each other.
But the actual integration and assimilation aspect is what I disagree with wholeheartedly.
But the actual integration and assimilation aspect is what I disagree with wholeheartedly.
This is not a uniform thing and you know i
this isnt across the EU.Germany has pretty strict laws and our education system makes sure that you know that Nazis suck. (doesn't work everytime though, look at AfD)
Furthermore:
Volksverhetzung, in English "incitement of the masses", "instigation of the people" (the official English translation of the German Criminal Code uses "incitement to hatred"[1][2]), is a concept in German criminal law that refers to incitement to hatred against segments of the population and refers to calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them, including assaults against the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population.[1][2][3]
It is often applied to, though not limited to, trials relating to Holocaust denial in Germany. The criminal code (Strafgesetzbuch) Chapter 7 (Offences against public order), Paragraph 130 (Incitement to hatred) of the Federal Republic of Germany defines when a person is guilty of Volksverhetzung.[1][2][3]
(...)
Whosoever, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace:
(...)
shall be liable to imprisonment from three months to five years.[1][2]
Volksverhetzung - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
If this was something as a welcoming thing, I'd be all for it. This is not whats happening here.
As a person who has twice been an immigrant, this is kind of fucked up. I understand some of the reasoning behind it but especially for an adult with a family it's not exactly easy to just learn a new language. Obviously learning the language in a new country is a huge bonus, but let's see how many people would have the energy to do this after having to do some heavy physical labor all day while making minimum wage and coming home to take care of their family.
lol. i have dual citizenship. no one cares about my "assimilation", my employer pays for some private tutoring, i get a certificate - presto, bob's your uncle. no one gives a rats fuck that i don't actually speak the language. do you wonder why?
Exit programmes exist for Neonazis at least in Germany and Austria, but you can hardly deport natural-born citizens. A lot of most Nazis' favourite activities (like heightened exercise with the right arm) are crimes, though, so that helps quite a lot.
So what's your actual argument here? Citizenship is unfair? No borders for everyone? Like, okay, that's at least a nice ideal to strive for, but actual politics is still more set in the here and now.
Even then, you'd still probably have to learn the language of your peers to be able to communicate with them. And I mean, it would be so easy to flip this draft into something positive like "Okay, then we'll want free courses for everyone and money for those who have to learn the language instead of searching for work". Everyone wins. If we're talking striving for ideals, that is.
I think language courses should be given for free, while really promoting that. But I don't think that you can demand it.
I think if the people need the language skills they will start picking it up from everyday life, it's something that develops.
And as a Dutch citizen I don't really care what languages you speak. That really doesn't have to do anything with me.
I think if the people need the language skills they will start picking it up from everyday life, it's something that develops.
And as a Dutch citizen I don't really care what languages you speak. That really doesn't have to do anything with me.
That is why, like Sweden, we have welfare for this group for a loner period of time, which ties into learning Swedish actually.
School is free in Europe, for everyone, and so are language courses for foreigners. And you're not really forced to integrate either. Around me there's plenty of people not speaking the local language and having signs in their own language from all different cultures and it's pretty normal and chill.
There are entire streets in my city where it's harder to get by by only knowing italian instead of chinese actually, and that's cool.
We literally have a thread on here of how fucking stupid the English language is at times. MOST of these people do not come to these countries to cause harm. They want peace.
As far as I understand this would not be a condition for refugees. But for people that choose to move to a country out of their own free will
Yeah, I'm curious how people here would solve those situations. No one benefits from that status
Please quote a post where someone argued what you're saying they did. I'll wait.
Incentivize them. Forced assimilation leads to resentment. Acting like they aren't part of the country simply because they have different customs and/or language is wrong. Give them the ability to do so through free language programs.
Learning a new language is much, much easier when you are immersed in it every single day. My parents knew jackshit English but they managed to learn and become essentially fluent overtime. Outright putting a language barrier up-front makes sure that only the most affluent, privileged people are allowed in.
Do you have dual citizenship since birth or for ancestral reasons? Because that would easily answer your question, you know...
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