EU draft declaration sets out stricter rules on migrant integration in response to terror attacks

SilentPanda · Nov 9, 2020

Official Staff Communication

The previous thread was derailed by focusing exclusively on language discussions, which is just one part of this draft declaration and missing the larger context.

This draft is largely a response to recent acts of terrorism, and therefore clearly aimed at the integration of Muslim communities. In addition to the language requirements, the declaration would include religious education measures targeting Muslim communities. Some member states have even expressed hesitation to support these propositions because of how it singles out Muslims.

Please be mindful of the xenophobic ramifications of those measures and avoid making dismissive drive-by posts.

Migrants to Europe must learn the language of their new home countries and encourage their children to integrate in the light of the recent Islamist terror attacks, EU governments plan to say in a declaration drafted by France, Austria and Germany.

The contentious draft statement, due to be made by EU home affairs ministers on Friday, is being championed by the French president, Emmanuel Macron, who was accused by Turkey's president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, of religious persecution after his recent warning of the dangers of Islamist separatism.

It will also say Brussels should fund religious education within Muslim communities, and NGOs publishing "content hostile to integration will be excluded from receiving" state support under the terms of the resolution.

The declaration further suggests that the European commission should fund religious education and training among imams.

There is some unease among fellow EU governments about the framing of the current draft, however. Sweden, Luxembourg and the Netherlands, among others, have traditionally pushed back against those who have viewed migration and religion through the prism of security.

Alongside a series of technical counter-terrorism proposals, including the creation of backdoor access to encrypted communications used in chat apps, the statement proposes a tougher line on the need for migrants to integrate.

EU draft declaration sets out stricter rules on migrant integration

Contentious statement includes edict on learning language of new home country

www.theguardian.com

Mivey · Nov 9, 2020

A lot of the things in this bill seem highly problematic to me, in the least. Certainly the language bit stands out, and I really dislike the idea of heavy government regulation here (not even talking about how this reeks of racism). If you don't learn the language of any country in Europe, and try find jobs, especially jobs above minimum wage, you'll have difficulties, to put it mildly. I don't need the government to keep people out here when free market capitalism is already treating people without language skills harshly.

The bit about religious education, is frankly scary to me. Compare this with China talking about forced "reducation" of its Muslim population. I'm not saying this is the same, I'm saying do we really want a Europe that seems at all in line with China on these issues? I sure don't. I love my country for being a liberal democracy where you can believe in whatever the fuck you want, and can do so as long as you leave other people the fuck alone, and I don't want the government to tell people how to do "Islam" right.
Might be overreacting here, and I see how the proposal isn't super out there, but this just seems like it will fuel far right leaders who would outright call for Islam to stop being practised at all.

And the other stuff, like banning encryption (which is what a "backdoor" proposal literally is), is just utter horseshit.

Xando · Nov 9, 2020

Alongside a series of technical counter-terrorism proposals, including the creation of backdoor access to encrypted communications used in chat apps

It's funny how they try this every few years and it either gets shot down because of protests or courts declare it illegal.

EU council really are fools

Deleted member 50374 · Nov 9, 2020

Everything that is not financing public schools, courses for adults, cultural events, investments in the economy straight up and building a discourse between religious leaders and the local authorities can go fuck off into the sun. Kids should go to school, public schools, btw; but no meddling in the rest.

Silav101 · Nov 9, 2020

Xando said:
It's funny how they try this every few years and it either gets shot down because of protests or courts declare it illegal.

EU council really are fools

They're anything but fools, they're hoping, even expecting for others to be fools and not see the obvious issues with large swathes of this bill. Those trying to stop crap like this have to be right 100% of the time, those trying to pass only have to be right once, after all.

Xando · Nov 9, 2020

Silav101 said:
They're anything but fools, they're hoping, even expecting for others to be fools and not see the obvious issues with large swathes of this bill. Those trying to stop crap like this have to be right 100% of the time, those trying to pass only have to be right once, after all.

This will get struck down in courts like all the other attempts. ECJ has clearly signaled it is not willing to allow harsh restrictions on encryption.

Silav101 · Nov 9, 2020

Xando said:
This will get struck down in courts like all the other attempts. ECJ has clearly signaled it is not willing to allow harsh restrictions on encryption.

ECJ upholding digital rights and encryption has always been good to see.

purplemonkey111 · Nov 9, 2020

So..their copying China Fbi and NSA policy ?

Deleted member 2752 · Nov 9, 2020

Is the education bit aimed at getting rid of Saudi and Turkish funding of European mosques? That has come up more and more. Like, in Germany most Imams are sent pretty much directly by the Turkish state and that's been a point of conflict for a while now.

And a thing they did in Austria when the rightwing populists were in power: raised language requirements and cut funding for German courses at the same time.
What's a refugee going to do? They usually can't afford to pay for courses themselves and good luck getting to a higher level without any help. It's creating a problem for decades to come.

Zweizer · Nov 9, 2020

This seems like it could be massively abused depending on which party is at the helm of which country. This also seems to blatantly target muslims. Not sure how Macron thought this was a good idea.

Deleted member 5086 · Nov 9, 2020

Zweizer said:
This seems like it could be massively abused depending on which party is at the helm of which country. This also seems to blatantly target muslims. Not sure how Macron thought this was a good idea.

It will absolutely be abused because it's clearly designed to be. That's something a lot of members miss in these kinds of threads. They focus on how things look on paper and ignore the intent and how it will actually be used.

Pand · Nov 9, 2020

The only thing I'd really like to see is a complete segregation of education and religion. Religious institutions should not get free access and opportunity to indoctrinate future generations. It's probably not something the EU should get involved in though.

Also that's regardless of which religion it is. Fuck anything targeting muslims in particular. This is dumb reactionary bullshit.

Lishi · Nov 9, 2020

Sometime the law are put on not because they actually believe they will have any effects.
But to avoid right wing parties to completely win next elections.

The effectiveness of this strategy can be debated.

Joni · Nov 10, 2020

mnz said:
Is the education bit aimed at getting rid of Saudi and Turkish funding of European mosques? That has come up more and more. Like, in Germany most Imams are sent pretty much directly by the Turkish state and that's been a point of conflict for a while now.

Basically. It is time that Turkey and Saudi use those imams to export their conflicts, so I'm expecting a lot of that is to curb the influence of Diyanet for instance.

Xando · Nov 10, 2020

mnz said:
Is the education bit aimed at getting rid of Saudi and Turkish funding of European mosques? That has come up more and more. Like, in Germany most Imams are sent pretty much directly by the Turkish state and that's been a point of conflict for a while now.

And a thing they did in Austria when the rightwing populists were in power: raised language requirements and cut funding for German courses at the same time.
What's a refugee going to do? They usually can't afford to pay for courses themselves and good luck getting to a higher level without any help. It's creating a problem for decades to come.

Yeah the aim is to have imams studying and training in the EU instead of being sent to europe by turkish or saudi states.

This should've happened way earlier. The issues radical imams sent from turkey or ksa are well documented.

fanboi · Nov 10, 2020

Xando said:
Yeah the aim is to have imams studying and training in the EU instead of being sent to europe by turkish or saudi states.

This should've happen way earlier. The issues radical imams sent from turkey or ksa are well documented.

Yeah we have similiar incidents in Sweden as well where you are Islamist Imams that recruits/brainwash Muslims.

These issues would be minimal if these group didn't feel isolated from society (hence why I support learning the language) from xenophobic and racist asshats.... and systematic racism that exists.

Jindrax · Nov 10, 2020

Maybe slightly off topic, but this they can fix in what a few days post an attack?

But the looming doom of the climate? Nope no unified solution for that guys...

Irminsul · Nov 10, 2020

Jindrax said:
Maybe slightly off topic, but this they can fix in what a few days post an attack?

But the looming doom of the climate? Nope no unified solution for that guys...

I said that in the locked thread, but this is a draft declaration, meaning it is as far removed from a "fix" (or actual laws / regulations) as possible while being somewhat of an official EU document. So no, it's really not a "quick fix".

Xando · Nov 10, 2020

Jindrax said:
Maybe slightly off topic, but this they can fix in what a few days post an attack?

But the looming doom of the climate? Nope no unified solution for that guys...

Here you go

The European Green Deal

Discover the European Commission's proposals to transform the EU into a modern, resource-efficient and competitive economy while reaching climate neutrality by 2050.

ec.europa.eu

Although you have certain countries dragging their heels

Jindrax · Nov 10, 2020

Irminsul said:
I said that in the locked thread, but this is a draft declaration, meaning it is as far removed from a "fix" (or actual laws / regulations) as possible while being somewhat of an official EU document. So no, it's really not a "quick fix".

Xando said:
Here you go

The European Green Deal

Discover the European Commission's proposals to transform the EU into a modern, resource-efficient and competitive economy while reaching climate neutrality by 2050.

ec.europa.eu

Although you have certain countries dragging their heels

I know this is merely a draft document, and that a green deal exists...

However, I certainly looks like this draft will become law sooner than the European Climate Law... Meaning that green deal remains a very nice suggestion that everyone can decide to follow or not...

EDIT: not meaning to derail this thread, it just always amazes me that "oh no my neighbour is brown" gets a lot more traction than "impending catastrophic doom"

Dr. Mario · Nov 10, 2020

Can countries with Laicite like France even fund religious education, constitutionally? Something needs to be done about countries exporting wahabbism and trying to control a diaspora, we've known for a long time, but I'm not sure this is the answer. I don't have one either though, religious freedom is obviously very important, even if it is being exploited.

RocknRola · Nov 10, 2020

I only truly agree with cutting off Imams (or any other religious leaders, really) that are funded by countries like Saudi Arabia, Turkey (apparently, had no idea) and the like. They seem to come, for the most part, focused solely on brainwashing their respective communities in Europe with extreme ideology.

The rest seems a bit... much...

Deleted member 50374 · Nov 10, 2020

mnz said:
Is the education bit aimed at getting rid of Saudi and Turkish funding of European mosques? That has come up more and more. Like, in Germany most Imams are sent pretty much directly by the Turkish state and that's been a point of conflict for a while now.

And a thing they did in Austria when the rightwing populists were in power: raised language requirements and cut funding for German courses at the same time.
What's a refugee going to do? They usually can't afford to pay for courses themselves and good luck getting to a higher level without any help. It's creating a problem for decades to come.

This is the right wing trying to fuck shit up so they can blame migrants. We had centers for this in Italy, and first thing the right does is close them and then complain that migrants have nowhere to stay and don't go to the courses they themselves closed. Public schools do have courses (with limited, limited funds) and local organizations try to reach out, but pos make it more difficult than necessary. And it's not like it was perfect before either

Jindrax said:
I know this is merely a draft document, and that a green deal exists...

However, I certainly looks like this draft will become law sooner than the European Climate Law... Meaning that green deal remains a very nice suggestion that everyone can decide to follow or not...

EDIT: not meaning to derail this thread, it just always amazes me that "oh no my neighbour is brown" gets a lot more traction than "impending catastrophic doom"

On the climate, Europe has a lot, lot more possible actions compared to migration. EU can and cannot do stuff, it's not all black and white.

Deleted member 2752 · Nov 10, 2020

RocknRola said:
I only truly agree with cutting off Imams (or any other religious leaders, really) that are funded by countries like Saudi Arabia, Turkey (apparently, had no idea) and the like. They seem to come, for the most part, focused solely on brainwashing their respective communities in Europe with extreme ideology.

It's a remnant of the "guest worker" period. Turkish migrants were expected to leave after a while, so they just sent Imams for them and then never changed this system. It's a bit absurd now when a third generation Turkish-German is supposed to go to them, chosen and sent by Erdogan's Diyanet.

themuzzotheory said:
This is the right wing trying to fuck shit up so they can blame migrants. We had centers for this in Italy, and first thing the right does is close them and then complain that migrants have nowhere to stay and don't go to the courses they themselves closed. Public schools do have courses (with limited, limited funds) and local organizations try to reach out, but pos make it more difficult than necessary. And it's not like it was perfect before either

Yeah, that's what I mean. It's not that hard to create legislation so that it's basically impossible to achieve citizenship or even acquiescence. It will be abused, maybe it's intended to be.

Joni · Nov 10, 2020

mnz said:
Yeah, that's what I mean. It's not that hard to create legislation so that it's basically impossible to achieve citizenship or even acquiescence. It will be abused, maybe it's intended to be.

Thing is, it is already easy to make that harder. Right-wing parties don't need the EU to make those laws harder, they don't need to follow Dublin guidelines, ... if it is intended to be abused, this is wasted effort because it can already be done.

Messofanego · Nov 11, 2020

This is just fascism. Fascists use terrorist attacks to enact right wing legislation like this forced assimilation in the coded language of being white saviours to the savage cultures. People with their kneejerk reactions find it fine because they want a target to attack. While centrists and liberals think "oh yeah we are just helping immigrants learn the language so they have less issues in being minimum wage employees and shopkeepers" to justify it. If governments wanted to fund education for immigrants out of the good of their hearts, they wouldn't need to force it, they would just give it as a resource which is presented as support if someone is experiencing language difficulties. This has been happening for ages. People being fooled in the previous thread and in general by this concern trolling. Yeah right you're concerned about those immigrants who haven't learned the local language and are hiding in their own communities and speaking in their native language over here in western countries. This conversation always happens in relation to security concerns.

This is not some magic solution to stop terrorists to brainwash the immigrants in western countries, it doesn't get to be that easy. You have to look at the complex socioeconomic factors of why some are vulnerable to radicalisation. But that requires more effort and empathy to fix rather than this. If this was genuinely about all immigrants, including whites who never learn the local language, this wouldn't be timed right after such events or be so specific to certain communities.

EU draft declaration sets out stricter rules on migrant integration in response to terror attacks

SilentPanda

EU draft declaration sets out stricter rules on migrant integration

Mivey

Xando

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Silav101

Xando

Silav101

purplemonkey111

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Zweizer

Deleted member 5086

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Pand

Lishi

Joni

Xando

fanboi

Jindrax

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Irminsul

Xando

The European Green Deal

Jindrax

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The European Green Deal

Dr. Mario

RocknRola

Deleted member 50374

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Deleted member 2752

Joni

Messofanego