So all these airlines choosing to ground the planes must be acting because they've got the first data from the black box, right?
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Ethiopian Airlines: Boeing 737 crashes on way to Kenya (UP: No survivors)
- Thread starter MikeHattsu
- Start date
I doubt they have any data from the black box at this point. I'm pretty sure the reason is prudence vs any sort vs actual data from the Ethiopian Airlines crash, which I imagine we won't have for a little while.
Insufficient data is the reason I saw from some of the national entities.
If it is MCAS then the trail of people to blame - from whoever devised it and signed it off, and whoever decided to bypass the requisite training - should be prosecuted with the full force of the law. It's not an unavoidable accident, it's direct causation from negligence.
NYT: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot's Tense Radio Messages Show
ADDIS ABABA, Ethiopia — The captain of a doomed Ethiopian Airlines jetliner faced an emergency almost immediately after takeoff from Addis Ababa, requesting permission in a panicky voice to return after three minutes as the aircraft accelerated to abnormal speed, a person who reviewed air traffic communications said Thursday.
"Break break, request back to home," the captain told air traffic controllers as they scrambled to divert two other flights approaching the airport. "Request vector for landing."
Controllers also observed that the aircraft, a new Boeing 737 Max 8, was oscillating up and down by hundreds of feet — a sign that something was extraordinarily wrong.
All contact between air controllers and the aircraft, Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 to Nairobi, was lost five minutes after it took off on Sunday, the person said.
The person who shared the information, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the communications have not been publicly released, said the controllers had concluded even before the captain's message that he had an emergency.
---------------
The new disclosures about the last moments of Flight 302 came as pilots were discussing what they described as the dangerously high speed of the aircraft after it took off from Addis Ababa's Bole International Airport.
Pilots were abuzz over publicly available radar data that showed the aircraft had accelerated far beyond what is considered standard practice, for reasons that remain unclear.
"The thing that is most abnormal is the speed," said John Cox, an aviation safety consultant and former 737 pilot.
"The speed is very high," said Mr. Cox, a former executive air safety chairman of the Air Line Pilots Association in the United States. "The question is why. The plane accelerates far faster than it should."
---------------
Ethiopian Airlines officials have said the crew of Flight 302 reported "flight control" problems to air traffic controllers a few minutes before contact was lost. The new account of communications between air traffic controllers and the pilot, Yared Getachew, who had 8,000 hours of flying experience, provides much more information about what was happening in the cockpit.
Within one minute of Flight 302's departure, the person who reviewed communications said, Captain Getachew reported a "flight control" problem in a calm voice. At that point, radar showed the aircraft's altitude as being well below what is known as the minimum safe height from the ground during a climb.
Within two minutes, the person said, the plane had climbed to a safer altitude, and the pilot said he wanted to stay on a straight course to 14,000 feet.
Then the controllers observed the plane going up and down by hundreds of feet, and it appeared to be moving unusually fast, the person said. The controllers, the person said, "started wondering out loud what the flight was doing."
Two other Ethiopian flights, 613 and 629, were approaching from the east, and the controllers, sensing an emergency on Flight 302, ordered them to remain at higher altitudes. It was during that exchange with the other planes, the person said, that Captain Getachew, with panic in his voice, interrupted with his request to turn back.
Flight 302 was just three minutes into its flight, the person said, and appeared to have accelerated to even higher speeds, well beyond its safety limits.
---------------
Cleared by the controllers to turn back, Flight 302 turned right as it climbed further. A minute later, it disappeared from the radar over a restricted military zone.
I don't think anyone was trying to blame the Ethiopian pilots, we don't know what happened there yet - these are the first real details.
The FMS of the jet should provide a constant speed climb - so if something went wrong with engine power management then that could mess with that.
Regardless, at least from the NYT report, it seems like it was not the same issue that occurred with Lion Air.
No joke, I had a flight to Austria this weekend that as the shutdown prolonged I decided to cancel. It wasn't wholly because of it but I knew that stuff was going to be slipping and I set a date in my mind that if the shutdown was going still I would cancel no matter what.
It resolved a little before it but I had soured on the trip mentally and cancelled.
We need regulation, oversight, and consistency and the bullshit shutdown broke that for no reason.
Reuters Top News @Reuters
BREAKING: Investigators of Ethiopian crash found piece of stabilizer with trim in unusual position similar to doomed Lion Air jet - sources
1:15 AM - Mar 15, 2019
BREAKING: Investigators of Ethiopian crash found piece of stabilizer with trim in unusual position similar to doomed Lion Air jet - sources
1:15 AM - Mar 15, 2019
It'd be interesting if it was actually an auto throttle or engine power management issue.... if the throttle went crazy, it would push the nose up, which would then cause the AP or MCAS to trim the nose down... and if the readings were messed up the throttle could kick even higher.
That could actually explain both incidents then.
That could actually explain both incidents then.
Is there any other airplane that relies on this much Software to fix design issues?
These planes will continue to have only two sensors I'm guessing.
Answering my own question sort of, the planes in question have three different indicators telling pilotsif there is a disagreement between the two AoA sensors, all of which are optional at an extra cost, and Lion Air had none of them. Apparently this is not mandated by the FAA as something that is required to be included.
The thing I don't quite get...
Boeing claims that they will roll out an important MCAS update in ~10 days and they blame the government shut-down... yet the government shut-down was over more than 2 months ago.... and they couldn't get their critical update approved... ? and now they can get it done in less than 2 weeks?
and nobody is calling them out on their bullshit?
Boeing claims that they will roll out an important MCAS update in ~10 days and they blame the government shut-down... yet the government shut-down was over more than 2 months ago.... and they couldn't get their critical update approved... ? and now they can get it done in less than 2 weeks?
and nobody is calling them out on their bullshit?
My main concern is that it's now rushed and will be more of an issue.
I'm guessing the software update (based on the Lion Air findings) was already tested and in the process of being approved and on schedule to be released soon. This latest crash is just speeding up the approvals for obvious reasons. I doubt they already have data from the Ethiopian crash to be able to add anything new to whatever changes they had already implemented and are releasing in 10 days.
This is an interesting theory, it also explains why they would (possibly) disable the autopilot allowing the MCAS system to take over.
Last edited:
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/03/boeing-crash-faa-trump-safety-regulation
The Lives the Free Market Took
The Lives the Free Market Took
The fact so many planes are already grounded indicate that this will hurt Boeing very badly and for a very long time.
The fact that it was designed to support that checking/redundancy but not mandated is crazy. Planes fly over populated areas, you shouldn't allow cost cutting to that level. And on a multi million dollar purchase the 1% (wild guess, would be interesting to know the cost difference) add on for extra safety takes some awful accounting to justify
Well, what i don't understand is how they just have two sensors as the default version. There should be at least 3 to discard the faulty one as many other planes have. And obviously, there should be a way to disconnect the MCAS as Airbus does with their protections.
It's a very big fuckup for Boeing which definetly will impact their future sales and for the FAA who approved the (no) training to begin with and waited until they had political pressure to ground the MAX on USA.
And as an extra bit, BOEING will have to answer why the procedure they published after the LION AIR crash to fight this issue, didn't work.
I've never even flown in a plane that isn't a Boeing. How can it hurt them when they monopolize the market?
I originally heard it discussed here (21:30) - https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/avtalk-episode-53-ethiopian-302-and-the-grounding-of-the-737-max/
But also from November after Lion Air: Optional warning light could have aided Lion Air engineers before crash: experts
One of the victims was from my home town of Orillia. This really hit parts of the community really hard. I'm glad they are taking these planes out of the air.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-...n-ethiopia-crash-friends-colleagues-1.5056925
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-...n-ethiopia-crash-friends-colleagues-1.5056925
The Boeing Company @Boeing
Boeing Chairman, President and CEO Dennis Muilenburg issued the
following statement regarding the Ethiopian Transport Minister Dagmawit
Moges's report today. https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2019-03-17-Boeing-CEO-Muilenburg-Issues-Statement-on-Ethiopian-Airlines-Flight-302-Accident-Investigation …
4:24 PM - Mar 17, 2019
Boeing Chairman, President and CEO Dennis Muilenburg issued the
following statement regarding the Ethiopian Transport Minister Dagmawit
Moges's report today. https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2019-03-17-Boeing-CEO-Muilenburg-Issues-Statement-on-Ethiopian-Airlines-Flight-302-Accident-Investigation …
4:24 PM - Mar 17, 2019
The Washington Post @washingtonpost
Ethiopian official: Black box data shows "clear similarity" between Ethiopian Airlines, Lion Air crashes https://wapo.st/2TRSXNN
3:21 PM - Mar 17, 2019
Ethiopian official: Black box data shows "clear similarity" between Ethiopian Airlines, Lion Air crashes https://wapo.st/2TRSXNN
3:21 PM - Mar 17, 2019
WaPo: Ethiopian official: Black box data shows 'clear similarities' between Ethiopian Airlines, Lion Air crashes
ADDIS ABABA, Ethiopia — Ethiopia's transport minister said Sunday that information from the flight data recorder on the Ethiopian Airlines jet that crashed last week shows "clear similarities" with the crash of the same type of plane in Indonesia in October.
Dagmawit Moges told journalists that the condition of the "black boxes" — the data and voice record — was good and that enough data had been recovered that her ministry's Accident Investigation Bureau would release a preliminary report on what happened to Flight 302 in 30 days.
"During the investigation of the FDR [flight data recorder], clear similarities were noted between Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 and Indonesian Lion Air Flight 610, which will be the subject of further investigation," Dagmawit said.
Boeing will be just fine. Beyond taking some sort of lawsuit hit. And even then, based on the preliminary report, one should still expect the Lion Air report will place some culpability on Lion due to the maintenance / logging issues that should've taken that plane out of service.
737 MAX will be back in service in a matter of weeks and will continue to be delivered in the thousands.
737 MAX will be back in service in a matter of weeks and will continue to be delivered in the thousands.
That's not true at all. Airbus is as common as Boeing. Maybe you only fly domestically?
The DC-10's production was ceased due to lack of orders merely four years after it was grounded for a while.
sure, but the 400 of them flew for years and accrued a good safety record - and airlines aren't going to be scared off of the 737 MAX when their 737 NG crews can fly it. There's a reason there are 5k orders on the books
Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system
Current and former engineers directly involved with the evaluations or familiar with the document shared details of Boeing's "System Safety Analysis" of MCAS, which The Seattle Times confirmed.
The safety analysis:
Current and former engineers directly involved with the evaluations or familiar with the document shared details of Boeing's "System Safety Analysis" of MCAS, which The Seattle Times confirmed.
The safety analysis:
- Understated the power of the new flight control system, which was designed to swivel the horizontal tail to push the nose of the plane down to avert a stall. When the planes later entered service, MCAS was capable of moving the tail more than four times farther than was stated in the initial safety analysis document.
- Failed to account for how the system could reset itself each time a pilot responded, thereby missing the potential impact of the system repeatedly pushing the airplane's nose downward.
- Assessed a failure of the system as one level below "catastrophic." But even that "hazardous" danger level should have precluded activation of the system based on input from a single sensor — and yet that's how it was designed.
I can't see 737-Max orders not taking a hit when it's a risky plane rolling its chances on a new software update plus I'm sure people will be weary of taking that plane which in turn will affect the airlines. So why order more of a tainted aircraft.
I mean, in the end I'm sure Boeing will be fine. But this will cost.
I mean, in the end I'm sure Boeing will be fine. But this will cost.
Last edited:
It's still the case that if the runaway stabilizer trim checklist was followed the Lion Air crash would not have happened. We know this because the previous flight crew did exactly that on the flight earlier in the day. If it turns out the problem on this flight was the same it would also be true that working down the three items on the checklist would address the problem and allow the flight to continue with manual stabilizer trim.
That can make you mad if you want it to but it's still true.
It absolutely behaves as uncommanded runaway trim. It's trimming without being told to specifically when hand flying. Of course you can counteract it with the trim switch on the yoke - you always can. That description makes little sense.
The thing is - it's not a software update. It's way more involved than that.
This MCAS is a fundamental part of the aircraft - due to the location of the engines (something that no other 737 model prior to this has ever had to have).
This should have been clear and up front in terms of instruction to any pilot wanting to rate for the MAX. The fact both the FAA and Boeing didn't do this with the clarity it warranted means they both need to face big time investigation.
The cynic in me suspects that Boeing pushed all they could to get the MAX out to customers and flying due to competition from Airbus and it's A320 NEO.
Lol, you're so quick to reply when someone mentions you without tagging your name in their post. Very peculiar. 🤔
I just found out about the seattle article and god, that's a very big fuck up from BOEING and also the FAA. Makes me wonder what happens with EASA and AIRBUS.
From the article it's clear that Boeing wanted to speed up the certifications because the 320Neo was months ahead of them.
In the article it says clearly that it does not behave as a runaway trim. It's not that the trim keeps moving, what i understand is that the position of the stabilizer moves every time you try to reset it, efectively moving to the max in a couple of times, basically giving the MCAS full authority of the longitudinal stabilization.
The worst thing about the Ethiopian crash is that Boeing issued a bulletin to all Max users after the Lion air with a procedure to follow, which means that even their own procedure didn't work. So scary.
What really amazes me of this huge fuck up is how they developed this "protection" to activate when just one of the AoA sensors gave the signal. I can see that's the most "safely" way when you only have 2 sensors, the thing is all aircrafts equiped with a protection like this should have at least 3 (to discard the faulty one) like Airbus does. And obviously, a way to disconnect it.
From the article it's clear that Boeing wanted to speed up the certifications because the 320Neo was months ahead of them.
In the article it says clearly that it does not behave as a runaway trim. It's not that the trim keeps moving, what i understand is that the position of the stabilizer moves every time you try to reset it, efectively moving to the max in a couple of times, basically giving the MCAS full authority of the longitudinal stabilization.
The worst thing about the Ethiopian crash is that Boeing issued a bulletin to all Max users after the Lion air with a procedure to follow, which means that even their own procedure didn't work. So scary.
What really amazes me of this huge fuck up is how they developed this "protection" to activate when just one of the AoA sensors gave the signal. I can see that's the most "safely" way when you only have 2 sensors, the thing is all aircrafts equiped with a protection like this should have at least 3 (to discard the faulty one) like Airbus does. And obviously, a way to disconnect it.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/fl...system-article-before-ethiopian-crash.105987/
Just posting a link to cartoon_soldier's thread here.
The funding of the FAA needs to be investigated over the last decade IMO. Self certification by Boeing, especially with aforementioned A320 NEO competition, is unforgivable.
Just posting a link to cartoon_soldier's thread here.
The funding of the FAA needs to be investigated over the last decade IMO. Self certification by Boeing, especially with aforementioned A320 NEO competition, is unforgivable.
I'm supposed to be travelling on a 737 Max 8 but not until August.
I've no need to worry about cancellations, right? The airline will either sort out replacement planes or the planes will be ungrounded by then, yeah? Maybe I should take out travel insurance now just in case.
I've no need to worry about cancellations, right? The airline will either sort out replacement planes or the planes will be ungrounded by then, yeah? Maybe I should take out travel insurance now just in case.