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Lkr

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,510
Not that it matters though, I'm sure "gamers" will die on this hill now (unless the dev decides to add female characters in which case we'll probably have another Ion Maiden shit show).
Oh don't worry, this thread is full of concern excuses for the dev team. Apparently the team is made up of weak bodies that can not handle the intense stress of including women in a game! You need real hardened men making games for real hardened men.

I really wish I could get away with the excuse of "but that's more work/time!" for my projects at work.
 

ken_matthews

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
838
Isn't there literally a whole tweet thread linked in here from an actual game developer experienced in the exact field saying it's a lot easier than you might be giving the benefit of the doubt to developers for?

Like yeah it's still work, but that + my recollections of tweet threads back when the statement being memed on was "women are too hard to animate" is that in terms of "good enough for combat gameplay". it's pretty doable nowadays with a wide variety of tools meant to make that kind of job way easier, especially if you're working with "this isn't a released product and imperfect models/animations should be expected" standards for your requirements in Escape from Tarkov's case.

There are a lot of tools that make character development easier, like animation retargeting, various rigging scripts, and modeling and material creation tools. But it's still a tremendous amount of work. I am not a game developer, but I have a lot of experience with 3D character creation in applications like Maya, Marvelous designer, Substance, and UE4. For example, here are some examples from my hobby work from something that I was doing a few years ago:

I made an character that was supposed to be an enemy NPC. This took a lot of hours to make.

Starting from a simple sculpt:
LA58ab5.jpg


To creating various clothing in Marvelous Designer:
uzt33I6.jpg


Then the retopo, creating the skeleton, skinning:
MTFdx4J.jpg


Then it had to be sliced up, reskinned, and then rigged as individual parts (head, arms, torso, legs, cyber parts) so that you can mix and match in game to create variety:
L5HsRO8.jpg


Then UV mapping all the parts:
c5GcEey.jpg


Creating the textures and materials:
3dhrZlP.jpg


Putting the character all together and testing:
pgapF5C.jpg


Then doing motion capture and cleaning it up:
yW1OJk1.gif


The turning motion capture into animation logic:
XOXkIA7.gif


With all that said and done, I ended up with tiny bit of variety for one enemy NPC type (four heads, a few cyber parts, a few different types of head gear/hair, a couple pairs of cloths, three punches, and an idle animation. That took so much god damn time and work to do and there is barely much to show. But I show you all that just to tell you that the next character was supposed to be a playable female (never finished her):
1yUFlQ5.jpg


Guess how much of the work on the male character was transferable to the female? Aside from being able to retarget animations to her skeleton, none of it. Creating a character is not trivial. Of course a game studio will benefit from efficiencies that I don't have (better pipe line, specialization, custom tools, talent, experience, etc.), but it is still a tremendous amount of work. I show you my hobby quality work just to let you know that I am not making this up...it's soooo much work.

Also, if somebody is arguing that animating a female is more difficult than a male, then yeah, I call bullshit too. Animating any character is difficult in a lot of ways that are not obvious. For example, I was working on a cat animation rig. This is the tail rig I made, seems simple, right? Well it wasn't, it was very difficult to make a controller like this and it required a bunch of vector math and code. It was probably the most difficult thing I've rigged (but that is not really saying much).
AHY4CZd.gif


I am not trying to make excuses for anybody, but I post all that to show that I have experience doing this and I am not making up how much work this stuff is
 
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Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
There are a lot of tools that make character development easier, like animation retargeting, various rigging scripts, and modeling and material creation tools. But it's still a tremendous amount of work. I am not a game developer, but I have a lot of experience with 3D character creation in applications like Maya, Marvelous designer, Substance, and UE4. For example, here are some examples from my hobby work from something that I was doing a few years ago:

I made an character that was supposed to be an enemy NPC. This took a lot of hours to make.

Starting from a simple sculpt:
LA58ab5.jpg


To creating various clothing in Marvelous Designer:
uzt33I6.jpg


Then the retop, creating the skeleton, skinning:
MTFdx4J.jpg


Then it had to be sliced up, reskinned, and then rigged as individual parts (head, arms, torso, legs, cyber parts) so that you can mix and match in game to create variety:
L5HsRO8.jpg


Then UV mapping all the parts:
c5GcEey.jpg


Creating the textures and materials:
3dhrZlP.jpg


Putting the character all together and testing:
pgapF5C.jpg


Then doing motion capture and cleaning it up:
yW1OJk1.gif


The turning motion capture into animation logic:
XOXkIA7.gif


With all that said and done, I ended up with tiny bit of variety for one enemy NPC type (four heads, a few cyber parts, a few different types of head gear/hair, a couple pairs of cloths, three punches, and an idle animation. That took so much god damn time and work to do and there is barely much to show. But I show you all that just to tell you that the next character was supposed to be a playable female (never finished her):
1yUFlQ5.jpg


Guess how much of the work on the male character was transferable to the female? Aside from being able to retarget animations to her skeleton, none of it. Creating a character is not trivial. Of course a game studio will benefit from efficiencies that I don't have (better pipe line, specialization, custom tools, talent, experience, etc.), but it is still a tremendous amount of work. I show you my hobby quality work just to let you know that I am not making this up...its soooo much work.

Also, if somebody is arguing that animating a female is more difficult than a male, then yeah, I call bullshit too. Animating any character is difficult in a lot of ways that are not obvious. For example, I was working on a cat animation rig. This is the tail rig I made, seems simple, right? Well it wasn't, it was very difficult to make a controller like this and it required a bunch of math and code. It was probably the most difficult thing I've rigged (but that is not really saying much).
AHY4CZd.gif


I am not trying to make excuses for anybody, but I post all that to show that I have experience doing this and I am not making up how much work this stuff is
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
I'm not sure why we're still arguing over the effort it takes when there was a different reasoning posted on page 1 that was a lot less defensible
 

ken_matthews

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
838
I'm not sure why we're still arguing over the effort it takes when there was a different reasoning posted on page 1 that was a lot less defensible

Because people keep saying it takes no/little effort and I think that is wrong. I agree with the other criticism so I am not arguing against it.



If you read her description of the breakdown of creating a character, it is basically the same stuff I laid out in my post. She brushes through each step like it is all so simple, and quick. It is not, all the steps take a lot of time and effort.
 

newmoneytrash

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,981
Melbourne, Australia
If you read her description of the breakdown of creating a character, it is basically the same stuff I laid out in my post. She brushes through each step like it is all so simple, and quick. It is not, all the steps take a lot of time and effort.
she's not saying that it costs nothing, just that it's far from the expense people claim when they use it as an excuse

also no offence but i think i'll take the word of a professional developer with a long and extensive resume over a hobbyist modeller
 

Deleted member 2652

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,434
Because people keep saying it takes no/little effort and I think that is wrong. I agree with the other criticism so I am not arguing against it.



If you read her description of the breakdown of creating a character, it is basically the same stuff I laid out in my post. She brushes through each step like it is all so simple, and quick. It is not, all the steps take a lot of time and effort.
It's not trivial, it's work, but it's not 2x the work or cost.
 

Karlinel

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Nov 10, 2017
7,826
Mallorca, Spain
So...are those developers from eastern europe, the 90's, or just misogynistic MRAs?
Edit-clarification: from my experience, casual sexism towards war and women are extended in Eastern europe (at least Romania and Ukraine), not a gratuituous jab.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,634
Does anyone know if MW 2019 uses the same animations for M/F characters? I feel like they do.
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,578
So...are those developers from eastern europe, the 90's, or just misogynistic MRAs?
Edit-clarification: from my experience, casual sexism towards war and women are extended in Eastern europe (at least Romania and Ukraine), not a gratuituous jab.
It's a Russian developer.
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
Look, the reason BSG is even tweeting about this today is because you guys keep posting this old interview from 2016. It was one member of the studio who said these things, and he was disciplined for it:



The studio head also went on reddit earlier today to give his personal thoughts on this:



The game and the entire studio do not deserve to be thrown under the bus for this trash.

People can lie

Whether or not the leaders said it is irrelevant as theyre still double downing on the same end result
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
Women dont need a giant pair of titties and sexy walk cycles to be in a game

I'm not for a second buying that the sexist comments were from one team member in a low position. The comments specifically say the decision was a group decision.
Yeah lol ya'll really reaching to downplay this. This is clearly them trying to dodge controversy while sticking to their guns.
 

ken_matthews

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
838
User banned (1 month): excusing misogyny over multiple posts
she's not saying that it costs nothing, just that it's far from the expense people claim when they use it as an excuse

also no offence but i think i'll take the word of a professional developer with a long and extensive resume over a hobbyist modeller

Yeah, that is fair.

EDIT: Actually, I am going to poke this a bit more. I think there is something interesting going on here.

If you go to her site, you can see her game credits. You are probably not going to believe me when I tell you this, but the enemy NPC character I posted is significantly more complex than any of the game characters she has on her game credits, and that was made at the hobby level. Some of the characters she did for cinematics have more geometry complexity, but they are not game characters and that makes a meaningful difference. The game characters she worked on have the complexity of something from the mid 2000s (some are actually from that time).
 
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ZugZug123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,412
This is bad but I don't think these people can be shamed into compliance. For those still on the fence if the "SJW" stuff is not enough: in this day and age downloading a Russia-developed game with its own launcher is a red flag big enough for me to not look at this game. For those who don't care: congrats on your new backdoor.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
No, I don't think they will be getting any of my monies. For lore reasons.

This is bad but I don't think these people can be shamed into compliance. For those still on the fence if the "SJW" stuff is not enough: in this day and age downloading a Russia-developed game with its own launcher is a red flag big enough for me to not look at this game. For those who don't care: congrats on your new backdoor.
Agree. I perfer simple shaming and guaranteeing they will never see a dollar from me. They don't deserve money just because they make a product. They made their choice and I get to make mine by sending my money to developer teams that make better choices.
 

Mentalist

Member
Mar 14, 2019
17,976
Aren't these the guys that streamed a demo of their game while drunk? I seem to recall watching a video in heavily accented English prefaced by an address to any Russians watching that mentioned that.

I get that it's a small team, and having Russians making a shooter about war in a breakaway Russian city-state, I'm not surprised female soldiers were the last thing on their mind.

But "lore reasons?" Lol.
 

Deleted member 23046

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,876
Those comments about women not being able to handle war is so fucking ass backwards it is embarrasing. Tell that to the Peshmerga.

Kurdish_YPG_Fighters_(30358638660)_1-630x441.jpg

I was coming to post this too, especially after the current guy in charge of the White House let them vulnerable against a legal army :


And what about "the most successful sniper in history" ? 👩🏻‍✈️

 
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CandySTX

Member
Mar 17, 2018
1,630
Scotland
So, the lore reason isn't that they think women can't fight? I'd love to hear the actual backstory. Must be amazing. 🙄
 

Tovarisc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,407
FIN
"Lore reasons" is some silly shit, but they are tiny team from Russia so not having resources to just spread around isn't that surprising.

Telling them to shift priorities is bit weird to me. Games priority is in the combat and guns, not characters or character customization. They still have a lot work to do with games current core priority and focus, who we are to tell them change what their game design priority is?

Especially when their established playerbase would have bit of an issue with maps, guns, new engine tech etc being delayed for customization they don't care about.
 

Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
Yeah, that is fair.

EDIT: Actually, I am going to poke this a bit more. I think there is something interesting going on here.

If you go to her site, you can see her game credits. You are probably not going to believe me when I tell you this, but the enemy NPC character I posted is significantly more complex than any of the game characters she has on her game credits, and that was made at the hobby level. Some of the characters she did for cinematics have more geometry complexity, but they are not game characters and that makes a meaningful difference. The game characters she worked on have the complexity of something from the mid 2000s (some are actually from that time).
Dude, you're wrong, she's right. Stop it.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
Dude, you're wrong, she's right. Stop it.

The way i see it, Both are approaching this from different perspectives.

For him, he's clear that it takes quite the effort and time to do for him, but he's just one guy working as a hobbyist.
She's right that it isn't that expensive - relatively. For a decent sized studio, the money spent in taking a couple of days to animate a character isn't that meaningful compared to the overall budget.

It's certainly not trivial work, but a decent sized studio should be easily able to justify the resources to do this. This negative PR is costing them more, even.
 

1upsuper

Member
Jan 30, 2018
5,485
I love* when creators defer to the lore as if it's not something entirely created by them.

*Hate
 

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
User banned (2 months): sexism
I am likely going to get modded for this, but I have to get the thought out.

Do we actually need women to be represented in a combat zone? And if we do, why don't we represent children in the combat zone as well? Hell knows there's all too many of them out there.

edit:
Speaking as a Russian, I'd like people to know that we lost way too many men to the war. If you'll excuse us, some of us hate to see women being lost to it.
Whether they want to or not.
 

fourfourfun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,680
England
This is what happens when your breadth of life experience is dude-life and nothing else, and get together with similarly like minded dude-life's to make games. You get a fucking narrow spectrum.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,777
Detroit, MI
I am likely going to get modded for this, but I have to get the thought out.

Do we actually need women to be represented in a combat zone? And if we do, why don't we represent children in the combat zone as well? Hell knows there's all too many of them out there.

It's a piece of fiction. What's the logical reason that women can't be represented? We've been down this road before many, many times. This children inquiry is just a red herring.
 

fourfourfun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,680
England
Do we actually need women to be represented in a combat zone? And if we do, why don't we represent children in the combat zone as well? Hell knows there's all too many of them out there.

I mean, you get enough instances of people coming up to games and saying "oh, I cannot relate to the main character as it is a woman", so how do you feel when nigh on every game presented to you is a dude, who you in turn cannot relate to. If your game presents a character builder, then you're just being negligent.
 
Sep 14, 2018
4,620
I am likely going to get modded for this, but I have to get the thought out.

Do we actually need women to be represented in a combat zone? And if we do, why don't we represent children in the combat zone as well? Hell knows there's all too many of them out there.

What an interesting thought you just had to get out, thank you for asking these important questions.

It's not about NEEDING anything.
 

Tokyo_Funk

Banned
Dec 10, 2018
10,053
I am likely going to get modded for this, but I have to get the thought out.

Do we actually need women to be represented in a combat zone? And if we do, why don't we represent children in the combat zone as well? Hell knows there's all too many of them out there.

edit:
Speaking as a Russian, I'd like people to know that we lost way too many men to the war. If you'll excuse us, some of us hate to see women being lost to it.
Whether they want to or not.

Speaking fictionally of course, I can't see why not. In many cases games like the most recent COD:MW had female fighters that were clearly Peshmerga in spirit. Insurgency Sandstorm, Battlefield V, the list goes on.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,597
"We're not doing women because it doesn't fit with the game lore.... which is something we made up and could change at any point, but we won't."
 

newmoneytrash

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,981
Melbourne, Australia
edit:
Speaking as a Russian, I'd like people to know that we lost way too many men to the war. If you'll excuse us, some of us hate to see women being lost to it.
Whether they want to or not.
lmao

if you don't want to see more people lost to war don't play a war video game. don't try and hide your misogyny around some cultural trauma. it's transparent and gross
 

Dullahan

Always bets on black
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,410
I am likely going to get modded for this, but I have to get the thought out.

Do we actually need women to be represented in a combat zone? And if we do, why don't we represent children in the combat zone as well? Hell knows there's all too many of them out there.

edit:
Speaking as a Russian, I'd like people to know that we lost way too many men to the war. If you'll excuse us, some of us hate to see women being lost to it.
Whether they want to or not.

I am likely going to get modded for this, but I have to get the thought out.

This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever read on ERA.
 

Iceboh

Alt Account
Banned
Jan 5, 2020
7
I am likely going to get modded for this, but I have to get the thought out.

Do we actually need women to be represented in a combat zone? And if we do, why don't we represent children in the combat zone as well? Hell knows there's all too many of them out there.

edit:
Speaking as a Russian, I'd like people to know that we lost way too many men to the war. If you'll excuse us, some of us hate to see women being lost to it.
Whether they want to or not.
Yikes!
 

Cenauru

Dragon Girl Supremacy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,949
I am likely going to get modded for this, but I have to get the thought out.

Do we actually need women to be represented in a combat zone? And if we do, why don't we represent children in the combat zone as well? Hell knows there's all too many of them out there.

edit:
Speaking as a Russian, I'd like people to know that we lost way too many men to the war. If you'll excuse us, some of us hate to see women being lost to it.
Whether they want to or not.
It's a video game. Not a combat zone, a video game. Women play video games too and like to also be represented like men do in the majority of video games available. The entire point of video games are being able to do things that would have severe consequences in real life, or are downright impossible. Women also play video games and like to be represented just as much as men are. And then pretending to not know the difference between women and children, come the fuck on.

And what the fuck does war have to do with this? It's a FICTIONAL VIDEO GAME, no women are being "lost" in a fucking video game. Quit making excuses for hating women if you're that eager to get banned and say it straight.