I've only really noticed an anti-Chinese government bias, not necessarily anti-asian. But then I don't read even close to 1% of the threads on here.
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Era, let’s talk about anti-Asian bias.
- Thread starter TrailerParkRanger
- Start date
I think it was far worse on Gaf.
For example there was a thread about some guy who destroyed a clock and the first page replies were "lol I thought it was a Chinese" or "Oh. No Chinese there! So surprised" or some youtuber trashed some cultural heritage site and people were asking if the youtuber was asian...
I wont link the thread, but some replies from there:
Thanks a lot! I would love to read about it.
Yeah, I think defending the CCP's actions is abhorrent and should be called out. That's a far different thing from asking people to understand what the HK protests actually want or ask that they cool it with the deportation talk.
Well, yeah, there was a trash sub-community on the other site. It may still happen here, I just haven't seen it other than Chinese government dislike. Which, considering their human rights violations, could be viewed as justified. I think most times when people comment on something about China here they're specifically referencing the governing leadership, not necessarily the Chinese people. Same with North Korea. I rarely see anything really negative about West or South Asian governments or peoples.
OP
OP
I think at best, the thread was started because I don't think the issues are properly heard at all. Part of it, being part of a diaspora can be a very, very complex thing. My mother and I, as an example. Both of us are immigrants, both have lived in the US for the same amount of time. But she would never consider herself a Korean-America , and I don't know that I would ever classify her as one either. But when she goes back to Korea, she is not Korean. But in a different way than how I am seen in Korea as not Korean. There's a lot there. So because of the complexity, I want to try and serve it as plainly and as openly as possible.
I think there is an overarching problem in many Western countries in how they treat Asians, as opposed to other less represented groups. I can only speak from my experience in North America and reactions I got from traveling in Europe. And even within "Asians" as a broad category, the are issues between East Asians, and other groups like Pacific Islanders, South Asians and Southeast Asians in how they may be overlooked or not seen at all.
And the thing is, the two points I raised I think are the ones I see on Era the most. And honestly, I think just a little discourse can result in a large impact on the sense of alienation that many Asian-Era folks have vocalized in participating in Era. It's like, if you adjust the course of a ship 2 degrees, it's not much that first mile, but 100 miles down the ocean, it is a big deal.
Yeah, absolutely. I quoted a piece of your post for emphasis to make a point that was kind of a different matter from what you were focusing on. Sorry if that could've been seen as misleading. Thanks for clarifying!
I don't think your post came off as you wanting to speak for Chinese, and I agree differing viewpoints can be refreshing to know. But I also feel that if it's relevant to the discussion then it would be so based on its own merits rather than needing to attach a disclaimer about how you've immersed yourself in the culture to provide a speaking point.
Here's a relatively recent example of bias:
The people shouting "deport expats" and variations of that are disgusting. I'm very sympathetic to the plight of OP because I know sometimes, as a Jewish person, it feels like I have to have the "right" opinion on Israel or else I paint all Jews in the diaspora in a bad light. I have Chinese family who fled Hong Kong because they didn't want to live under the CCP, so I have been more heated on this issue than some, but I'll be the first to say that racism against Asians should be not be acceptable collateral damage in the fight for freedom.
I definitely think we need to be aware as well of bad faith actors who want to support Hong Kong as a means of encouraging yellow peril and imperialism (although I don't think there are very many, if any, of those here).
I definitely think we need to be aware as well of bad faith actors who want to support Hong Kong as a means of encouraging yellow peril and imperialism (although I don't think there are very many, if any, of those here).
My personal issue here is Asians expressing their concerns and anxieties of how Anti-China movement is going to cause collateral damage to Asians around the world that have nothing to do with the CCP, get dismissed down with "yeah but Fuck China." Given history, recent or otherwise, Asians should be able to talk about this without getting dismissed or being labelled a CCP shill.
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OP
OP
So, this really doesn't have anything to do with China per se. It's a pattern of behavior that has gone on, on Era, as a carry over from the GAF days.
The goings on in HK simply serve as the most recent thread topic as to where this occurs.
The goings on in HK simply serve as the most recent thread topic as to where this occurs.
That's fair. I was a lurker during the GAF days so I can't speak to that, I was only speaking to what I feel is a rising sentiment of yellow peril in wake of the Hong Kong news. Anti-Asian racism definitely exists outside of that context though, you're right.
What would be the best thing, in your opinion, for non-Asians to do to create a healthier discourse going forward?
A lot of the problem is people being dismissive to Asians (especially diaspora Asians) and the things we say about this topic. Which you are doing, right now. You probably had no bad intentions with your post, and made it in good faith. But you're doing it all the same.
Most educational experience I have had was dating a Korean/American woman for nearly three years. As a white guy she cued me into my privilege, institutionalized ignorance, and just generally made me more aware and racially/culturally more sensitive.
I'm grateful for the experience every day.
I'm grateful for the experience every day.
Well to be honest, and this is not only for all things Asian-related
Being less aggressive, more polite can do a lot in having a healthier discourse. Of course, there are some pretty dumb posters out there but I try to keep in mind that Era is a left-leaning forum, and it's better to assume the best first than expecting the worst in a poster.
What OP was saying in that point that you disagreed with was that non-Asian people do not have the right to speak about anti-Asian racism as if they have experience or expertise on the subject. It doesn't matter how many years you spent living in China or who you're married to, you have zero experience of being any type of Asian person. You say you won't speak for Asians but then you proceed to speak for the immigrants you know by saying their experiences are different. That is for them to come here and say, if they want to. Not you. On a related note, as a diaspora Asian, I know. You do not need to 'splain to me that a Chinese immigrant to Germany has a different experience than myself, a 4th gen Japanese American. It's obvious and I'm not stupid. You are not the right person to argue to any Asian American about how we experience anti-Asian bias and you need to recognize that.
Thanks for making this topic. The associated Hong Kong threads as well as the linked Abomimable thread(s) have been pretty embarrassing to read to be honest. That's not to say that some of what is being said in those threads isn't appropriate, justified anger towards the CCP. The fact that I have to insert that sentence at all, however shows how dire the dialogue around here can be though.
If I were to give suggestions I would probably make the following. Some of these are kind of vague and perhaps a bit too elementary, but TBH some members might need these reminders for discourse in general.
1) A very basic rule of thumb is to think about the context of the thread and imagine if your "Fuck the CCP / Free HK" is actually appropriate given the discussion topic. A thread about Blizzard cow-towing -- probably yes. A thread about a random poster's fears that those of Chinese ancestry are getting sucked into a racist vortex? Not so much.
2) No post is made better by the inclusion of the phrase "my Asian wife/husband/boyfriend/studies...ect" If your post relies on this kind of appeal to authority you should find a way to restructure your post so that it doesn't include it. Because this happens so often I think it bears repeating. No post is made better by using your Asian friend as a prop.
3) Nobody should have to apologize (pre-emptively or not) over their ancestry. Just because some people might be of a certain descent doesn't mean that they should have to stand in for the government or certain other individuals of said location.
4) Since this is an American centric board it is worth repeating that AA's are about ~6 percent of the population. Now, I'm not saying that ERA is exactly American, but it is worth noting that there are probably fewer people around with Asian heritage than you might think. So, expecting there to be an "Asian brigade" to air grievances in every thread is unrealistic. Just because it doesn't get a response doesn't mean it isn't still a shitty thing to say.
If I were to give suggestions I would probably make the following. Some of these are kind of vague and perhaps a bit too elementary, but TBH some members might need these reminders for discourse in general.
1) A very basic rule of thumb is to think about the context of the thread and imagine if your "Fuck the CCP / Free HK" is actually appropriate given the discussion topic. A thread about Blizzard cow-towing -- probably yes. A thread about a random poster's fears that those of Chinese ancestry are getting sucked into a racist vortex? Not so much.
2) No post is made better by the inclusion of the phrase "my Asian wife/husband/boyfriend/studies...ect" If your post relies on this kind of appeal to authority you should find a way to restructure your post so that it doesn't include it. Because this happens so often I think it bears repeating. No post is made better by using your Asian friend as a prop.
3) Nobody should have to apologize (pre-emptively or not) over their ancestry. Just because some people might be of a certain descent doesn't mean that they should have to stand in for the government or certain other individuals of said location.
4) Since this is an American centric board it is worth repeating that AA's are about ~6 percent of the population. Now, I'm not saying that ERA is exactly American, but it is worth noting that there are probably fewer people around with Asian heritage than you might think. So, expecting there to be an "Asian brigade" to air grievances in every thread is unrealistic. Just because it doesn't get a response doesn't mean it isn't still a shitty thing to say.
Just take a step back and let the Asians talk about it to each other. Did you notice that even in this thread, a lot of the Asians here have spent more time justifying every word we say to disbelieving audiences rather than talking to each other about these issues?
I don't know, OP.
In the context of recentevents, I have to give threads like these the side-eye, because I'm seeing CCP stans using "sinophobia" as a cudgel far more than I'm seeing anti-CCP views veer into racism, and the similar thread from yesterday or the day before was using hyperbole and out of context quotes to bash people justifiably angered by China's atrocities. Uighurs, Taiwanese, Tibetans, and Hong Kongers are all Asians.
(I'm of Asian descent, as is my partner, FWIW.)
In the context of recentevents, I have to give threads like these the side-eye, because I'm seeing CCP stans using "sinophobia" as a cudgel far more than I'm seeing anti-CCP views veer into racism, and the similar thread from yesterday or the day before was using hyperbole and out of context quotes to bash people justifiably angered by China's atrocities. Uighurs, Taiwanese, Tibetans, and Hong Kongers are all Asians.
(I'm of Asian descent, as is my partner, FWIW.)
I agree, but this thread was also created to generate the discussion among non-Asians, yeah? That obviously doesn't justify talking over Asian people (and some of the drive bys on page 1 are really dumb), but I assume a thread like this is created so people who might not be aware of the problem, or actually making the situation worse, can reflect. I'm hoping now that it's been a week or so since this topic was red hot that non-Asians can take stock on whether or not they are contributing to a dialogue that is basically a Cold War 2.0 scenario with full on McCarthyism.
I think the mods have failed to address some of this in a meaningful way, personally. There was a thread about anti-Hong Kong sentiment among Chinese expats in Canada and there were waves of "deport them, revoke their student status" and so on. Nothing was done about it. Not even really a staff post addressing it.
For real. Honestly I'm just reporting that kind of post, they don't add nothing except... to mock.
Thanks for this, OP and others who have contributed examples. I have definitely seen this constantly and don't really have the stomach to go digging around for specific posts. For the same reason I find it easiest to simply avoid threads that I know will be full of low key (or blatant) racism.
However, even seeing which threads get posted and how many is itself telling. When people talk about how the anti-CPC debate lately has been colored by racism, I think this on its own is quite damning. If you don't recognize any racism as long as you don't see explicitly racist statements, then fine, you can't hear the dog whistles, that's why people use them. But they are definitely there.
Some of the few times I decide to go into threads that I know are going to be painful are the US primary threads about Yang, since I do think that despite his poor chances, he's doing something important for both AA representation and UBI advocacy, and oh man is it bad there. Every single thread is full of racist assumptions about him, if not outright policing of how he is allowed to react to Asian stereotypes and racism.
Ultimately, I think the problem is simply one of numbers. There are very few Asian Americans, and there are a decent number of people in this forum from Europe, where East Asians are even rarer. Leftist spaces cut the numbers even further, and the reasons why are a whole nother issue. That just leaves a huge amount of anti-Asian racism for any given person to have to deal with, and that's just exhausting. It's just unrealistic to do anything other than let it slide or not even look at it 95% of the time.
However, even seeing which threads get posted and how many is itself telling. When people talk about how the anti-CPC debate lately has been colored by racism, I think this on its own is quite damning. If you don't recognize any racism as long as you don't see explicitly racist statements, then fine, you can't hear the dog whistles, that's why people use them. But they are definitely there.
Some of the few times I decide to go into threads that I know are going to be painful are the US primary threads about Yang, since I do think that despite his poor chances, he's doing something important for both AA representation and UBI advocacy, and oh man is it bad there. Every single thread is full of racist assumptions about him, if not outright policing of how he is allowed to react to Asian stereotypes and racism.
Ultimately, I think the problem is simply one of numbers. There are very few Asian Americans, and there are a decent number of people in this forum from Europe, where East Asians are even rarer. Leftist spaces cut the numbers even further, and the reasons why are a whole nother issue. That just leaves a huge amount of anti-Asian racism for any given person to have to deal with, and that's just exhausting. It's just unrealistic to do anything other than let it slide or not even look at it 95% of the time.
For one I am Chinese and I made reference to the fact that historically this kind of rhetoric led to massacres of Chinese people, you can do better than completely taking my words of out context (I mean, I guess you can't if you're deliberately trying not to?)
It's kind of incredibly offensive that you read my comments this way in an attempt to discredit the very real racism I see online and in real life.
Wow, not really shocked that this thread is largely proving OP's point. And someone has already implied that OP is secret propaganda. Fun.
This is gonna be a bit of a rant so sorry if it doesn't make much sense to you folks who want specific examples. I don't have time to write up a college essay for you with links and references.
These past few weeks have been mighty frustrating for me. Not just posts on era but having to argue with people on how I should feel about cultural appropriation, HK, China, and so on. This rising China hate has transformed into me having to constantly spar with people about various subjects. And we're all on the same fucking side!
Also keep seeing people throw around FREE HONG KONG without even understanding what the hell they are talking about. And if you try to correct and educate you get side eyed and people are like "do you support CCP or something??" Seriously fuck off and educate yourself before you take a hardline stance. Like the powdered bones translation thread. Like holy shit, when you hate someone you just ignore truth to fuel your outrage and hatred? Do you understand how dangerous this kind of living is?
AsianEra has had these concerns since era began, and the constant dismissiveness we encounter when reporting racism and racist threads and calling stuff out reflects how much people give a damn about the racism we encounter in our every day lives. No one cares. It's frustrating as hell when racism towards us is treated like it's no big deal.
And ffs people, please realize that letting hate for a whole country consume your heart will lead to hatred and mistrust for its people, when your hatred should be directed at their government.
This is gonna be a bit of a rant so sorry if it doesn't make much sense to you folks who want specific examples. I don't have time to write up a college essay for you with links and references.
These past few weeks have been mighty frustrating for me. Not just posts on era but having to argue with people on how I should feel about cultural appropriation, HK, China, and so on. This rising China hate has transformed into me having to constantly spar with people about various subjects. And we're all on the same fucking side!
Also keep seeing people throw around FREE HONG KONG without even understanding what the hell they are talking about. And if you try to correct and educate you get side eyed and people are like "do you support CCP or something??" Seriously fuck off and educate yourself before you take a hardline stance. Like the powdered bones translation thread. Like holy shit, when you hate someone you just ignore truth to fuel your outrage and hatred? Do you understand how dangerous this kind of living is?
AsianEra has had these concerns since era began, and the constant dismissiveness we encounter when reporting racism and racist threads and calling stuff out reflects how much people give a damn about the racism we encounter in our every day lives. No one cares. It's frustrating as hell when racism towards us is treated like it's no big deal.
And ffs people, please realize that letting hate for a whole country consume your heart will lead to hatred and mistrust for its people, when your hatred should be directed at their government.
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Let's look at the exact quotes in question and the subject of the thread for context.
That wasn't rhetoric. That's you saying there will be people killed in mass pogroms in Canada based off that post. They weren't specified as secret programs, so there is that. Although by nature they would have to be because the country would storm it and free those people.
This is perhaps as good a place as any, but I see one of the large issues for the Asian diaspora being how they are selectively used as allies of colonialism/whiteness when it's convenient for white people to do so, despite many in the diaspora not wanting that association, which leads to some distrust from other visible minorities that Asian-descendant people can/should be considered allies to their causes. I have seen it a few times and it really upsets me and blows my mind. But I'd like someone more knowledgeable to speak to this phenomenon I have witnessed, to not take anecdotal first-hand accounts as some sort of gospel of how to think on the subject.
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissive Commentary and Concern Trolling Over a Sensitive Topic Over Multiple Posts; Prior Severe Ban for Misogyny
I really made an effort to read your post OP, but I can't for the life of me understand your argument or what point you're trying to make. You need to edit that thing and add some specific examples or I fear there will be no meaningful discussion to be had.
OP is talking about Anti-Asian sentiment. The whole CCP stuff is but one portion of this issue.
I really haven't been seeing a sentiment for hatred of the people rather than the CCP itself in the various threads about China. Do you really think this is a problem that is frequently coming up?
Yeah, it does, quite a bit in fact. And, just for the record, you are what I consider an enabler of that problem, since this is the second time I've noticed you come into a thread like this and specifically ask the same question, which has been answered more than once.
It is every citizen's final duty to go into the tanks, and become one with all the people.
White guy here - just stopping in to say I support what you're saying and I agree that it's a problem.
For one thing, and I know that this is only a small part of your broader point, but I'd really like to see "fuck China" exit the vernacular of the posters on this website.
For one thing, and I know that this is only a small part of your broader point, but I'd really like to see "fuck China" exit the vernacular of the posters on this website.
Unless I'm misunderstanding. Couldn't that basically be traced back to colorism? Which is well, still a huge problem.
Answered where? With what examples? You can't just throw something out there and expect people to accept your opinion as fact.
I'm not 100% sure if the example I'm bringing up is exactly what you're talking about, but I do see and recieve the "second-hand white" treatment when it comes to online environments where other minorities exclude us for not being "minority enough", yet we still receive racism from racists.
In that Canadian thread there was an example on the first page that you completely ignored because it didn't fit your narrative. I don't need to be responsible for quoting posts for you when it's plain as day. Please stop acting like you're just "bringing up a question," because it doesn't make sense when the facts are looking straight in the eye.
We just occupy a weird spot at least in North America. Bit of invisible and all too visible. Also a controversial opinion, but a cultural obliteration where it's homogenized to non-descript identity.
I dunno if it's colorism but my interpretation of it is that model minorities are commonly used as a counterargument towards systemic racism against minorities such as blacks and latinos who have the deck stacked against them historically. The institutional racists point towards the successes of certain groups of Asian immigrants in accumulating a certain degree of financial wealth as a denial of any existence of institutional inequalities when the actual truth is way more complicated than that. Thus these subset of white people use Asians as a tool to further their agenda which damages Asian relations w/ other minority groups. Coupled w/ language barriers, cultural cultural differences and racism harbored by certain Asian immigrants and you can see why the model minority narrative is so damaging.
So the facts are plain as day, but you can't point to a single one?
What Canadian thread are you referring to? I just searched through my "Watched" threads (I automatically Watch threads that I post in) back to June and can't find a single thread with "Canad" in the title except for one about Chick-Fil-A.
Also, what the hell narrative are you even talking about? What kind of narrative do you think I subscribe to?
Go read page 1 of that thread, and then your reply later on.
The narrative that you ascribe to is that nobody is focusing on individuals, and instead all going after the CCP. This is false, as demonstrated by that thread.
I'm not really informed or knowledgeable enough to answer your question directly. I've been thinking on it. I don't know the extent to which that thesis is true or false. Because it varies by individual, I suspect it would be near impossible to come up with a summary unifying answer.
I'm just one person. My life experience is I was born in the U.S., but then because of my dad's work we moved abroad, and for about ten years of my childhood, I lived in a couple of Black-majority countries. Those countries were touched by colonialism too, but it was different. In those places, most of my school teachers, school principal, my ballet teachers, business owners, healthcare workers, friends' parents, most of the adults that I looked up to and that were in positions of leadership were Black.
So, when I moved back to the States and got reintroduced to living in a majority white country, I could sense there was some kind of artificial weirdness that was excessively excluding certain groups from positions of power and visibility. As a teen, I didn't have the language to know what that was. But I felt it, and it felt fundamentally unfair and wrong. It still does. I could feel the toll it takes on a society's well-being to have all that energy into actively working to oppress certain groups. Racism actually takes work to put in place.
I hope I'm not an ally of whiteness/colonialism. I strive not to be. I am pro-U.S., in that I want the United States to be a better version of itself to actually embrace and live up to its democratic ideals. I critique the U.S. pretty hard, but some people might still still see that as pro-colonialism or whatever. I hope I'm supportive of the struggle of other people of color. As a minority American, I live in gratitude that other minority groups - especially the African American community - sacrificed so much for the advancement of civil rights. What I wrote might be dumb and corny but I just wanted to reply.
Also, I wanted to mention there's this model minority thing re: Asian Americans. That's not the reality for most Asian Americans. A lot of Asian Americans live in outright poverty. They're hidden and invisible, because the Asian "doctor" "lawyer" public perception tends to dominate. For instance, almost 30% of Asian Americans in New York City live below the poverty line. But only a tiny amount of federal funding for social services reaches Asian American community organizations in NYC. Something like less than 2%. So there are a lot of Asian Americans who live in deprivation. With stats like that, I'd be reluctant to call us allies for the oppressive status quo.
OK, I just did read the first page, and I'm not seeing a focus on individuals, unless you mean people rightfully calling out the OP for his her bullshit about statements like, "This is less about the people and more about being bothered by China directly challenging the western hegemony. And lastly, don't ever let someone make you feel bad or shame you about your Chinese heritage."
What is the issue you have with my posts in the thread? Please be specific so I can actually respond meaningfully.
This is ultimately another facet of the same "treating all Asians as a monolith" problem. There is a huge difference between the average wealth and education of the largely richer and more educated Chinese- or Korean-American populations compared to those of Hmong or VIetnamese descent, and lumping even all East Asians together does erase that. Even lumping all people from the same country together hides some strong patterns you can see from different waves of immigration. The limited amount of media representation definitely helps reinforce this narrow stereotype as well.