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Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
No one develops like that

Epic's approach is the right one. Iterative releases following sprint cycles

Those are industry standards (agile development). You are crazy if you think companies shouldn't release products unless every feature is implemented and complete.

I guarantee you nobody else claiming Epic should've waited knows what agile development is. Armchair experts > proven industry practices.

In the real world, we dont welcome products 10 years late on competition.

There's a difference between "every little features" and literally no features.

What are you talking about? It happens all the time. See: Most internet browsers, Android, most console shit, etc.

The most important feature is does it launch games people paid for and they decided to push out features as they were ready.
 

Static

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,108
We've had to read probably 500+ pages about it, it definitely matters. I mostly wish peeps would focus less on the negativity/dramarama around things (including myself), though.
EDIT: Oops hit reply before writing anything.
It's just that when it's generally a positive thing, and sort of mundane besides, there's not a lot to debate. Even the review threads generally only run so long because everyone enjoys arguing about shit.
 

Fularu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,609
I guarantee you nobody else claiming Epic should've waited knows what agile development is. Armchair experts > proven industry practices.



What are you talking about? It happens all the time. See: Most internet browsers, Android, most console shit, etc.

The most important feature is does it launch games people paid for and they decided to push out features as they were ready.
I know

I'm always amazed at some of the comments I'm reading here on how easy this or that is and how it shouldn'T have been released in "such a sad state".

But then I just go back to my work planing our releases and shrug it off
 

Deleted member 56306

User-requested account closure
Banned
Apr 26, 2019
2,383
I actually get how you feel Bronson. It's tiring to see all the negativity all the time. Hundreds of pages of circular arguments that get ridiculous to the point that people are regularly called "trolls" for even the slightest disagreement or not caring all that much.

It sucks, but most people talk more when they've got something to be angry it. It doesn't make things better, and I hate that it's the way things are.
 

Dinjoralo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,143
That's sloppy, they gotta fix that ASAP unless they want that feature to never be used
It's also been mentioned that this is how games are added, as well. It's a manual process that can only be done a few times a week. Same with pushing updates to games, meaning they have to choose between spending time putting games on their servers, pushing updates, and now, adding cloud saves to a game.

This is probably part of why Epic goes for exclusive games, because they don't have a functional backend that can let them keep up with even just AAA releases.

I know

I'm always amazed at some of the comments I'm reading here on how easy this or that is and how it shouldn'T have been released in "such a sad state".

But then I just go back to my work planing our releases and shrug it off

Read the contents of this post, and my prior one in this thread.
 
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Dec 26, 2017
1,724
Firelink Shrine
Is this a meme or something?

It took 17 years for xbox live to get a cart. The eShop doesn't have one. The PSN one has a limit of 10, the appstore doesn't have one either.

I mean how often do you guys go on shopping sprees so that the need to hold many games in your cart is such an important feature?
none of those are relevant here. EGS is trying to directly compete with Steam, Steam has a shopping cart. it's literally that simple.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Deadass, iOS not having a wishlist stuff absolutely kills most of my interest in getting any games off of it, same with most other stores

On the flipside, I add stuff to my Amazon wishlist all the time so I can track prices + scoop things up when I remember I want them

iOS doesn't have a wishlist? WTF?
 

Dinjoralo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,143

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670

OMG that's so bad.

Why is their store so backwards?

I get exclusives are the best way for them to get users from Steam but they could at least put out a functional storefront.
 

IamFlying

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 6, 2019
765
I will acknowledge that yes, Epic has indeed delivered a publicly facing feature on their public roadmap. Ultimately, though, their reputation is in the gutter due to their suicidally aggressive exclusivity strategy.

Hm... it seems millions of people buying these games on Epics store. I think Epic does not care much about their reputation among those people that hate these exclusive deals (probably to few).
 

Deleted member 3058

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,728
I guarantee you nobody else claiming Epic should've waited knows what agile development is. Armchair experts > proven industry practices.



What are you talking about? It happens all the time. See: Most internet browsers, Android, most console shit, etc.

The most important feature is does it launch games people paid for and they decided to push out features as they were ready.
Miss me with using agile dev as an excuse. They set the initial release feature set. Their minimum viable product wasn't robust enough. Full stop. They're making it better, as they should but they're still missing almost every all the target dates that they, themselves, set. This is why they shouldn't have released the roadmap because now their missed targets are public.

My thought is that they worked hard to ensure that they made their primary customers happy and they succeeded in that regard. The folks downloading the client came second.

And what in the world are you talking about regarding Android? Android came onto the scene with major feature differentiation in the way of customization options.

Most modern web browsers (see Brave, Vivaldi) launch with *more* features than the standards (Safari, Edge).
 

Hucast

alt account
Banned
Mar 25, 2019
3,598
Yo it's legit weird that every time EGS finally adds a feature they were way late on or people have been bagging them on in a bunch of threads, it turns into a mini ghost town

Regional pricing was that way
EGS in China was that way
Cloud Saves are this way

Did y'all disappear or did it not actually matter
Because we hate the epic store and Tim Sweeney. Isn't that obvious

Guy can fuck off after the shenmue fiasco for me, and similarly they've pissed off many more. Such a dumb way to build your brand on.
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,906
Do you actually think software development can just have money thrown at it to make it go faster?
You might want to stop acting like adding a shopping cart or incremental upload saving (aka "cloud saves") is some kind of magic or big thing in software development. If Epic actually cared about these things then they could have released it already years ago for the EGS. But they didn't.

It's unlikely that nobody at Epic is able to design and implement a shopping cart or cloud saves because those are pretty basic tasks. So either there is not a single developer who is above amateur level within Epic OR the company decided to use their coders for different projects and not have one (or maybe a small group) working on these parts.

It's up to you whether you want to believe that nobody within Epic is able to programm these basic elements (hint: Epic has awesome devs) or if the management didn't care about these features. But if you have nobody working on something then you obviously won't see any progress. Hire additional devs to do a job will actually make "it go faster", so yeah.

I guarantee you nobody else claiming Epic should've waited knows what agile development is. Armchair experts > proven industry practices.
Agile describes the dev workflow like Lean or Scrum. These terms say nothing about the state or way of a release. Your comparison makes no sense. You can release a faulty prototype that has no features or runs like crap or release a fully working software with all kind of development philosophies.
 
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Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
Miss me with using agile dev as an excuse. They set the initial release feature set. Their minimum viable product wasn't robust enough. Full stop. They're making it better, as they should but they're still missing almost every all the target dates that they, themselves, set. This is why they shouldn't have released the roadmap because now their missed targets are public.

My thought is that they worked hard to ensure that they made their primary customers happy and they succeeded in that regard. The folks downloading the client came second.

And what in the world are you talking about regarding Android? Android came onto the scene with major feature differentiation in the way of customization options.

Most modern web browsers (see Brave, Vivaldi) launch with *more* features than the standards (Safari, Edge).

Agile software development is about defining what can be done within the sprint cycle. Epic, as much as you hate it, didn't feel like cloud saves were either capable of being implemented at launch or that it was not worth prioritizing. Why do you care if they're missing target dates? Are you a shareholder? I work in IT for a Fortune 200 company and our developers miss targets all the time. Development is hard.

You might want to stop acting like adding a shopping cart or incremental upload saving (aka "cloud saves") is some kind of magic or big thing in software development.
If Epic actually cared about these things then they could have released it already years ago for the EGS. But they didn't.

It's unlikely that nobody at Epic is able to design and implement a shopping cart or cloud saves because those are pretty basic tasks. So either there is not a single developer who is above amateur level within Epic OR the company decided to use their coders for different projects and not have one (or maybe a small group) working on these parts.

It's up to you whether you want to believe that nobody within Epic is able to programm these basic elements (hint: Epic has awesome devs) or if the management didn't care about these features. But if you have nobody working on something then you obviously won't see any progress. Hire additional devs to do a job will actually make "it go faster", so yeah.


Agile describes the dev workflow like Lean or Scrum. These terms say nothing about the state or way of a release. Your comparison makes no sense. You can release a faulty prototype that has no features or runs like crap or release a fully working software with all kind of development philosophies.

I don't need to act like these features are hard, yet as pointed out on this very thread, Xbox store took 17 years to get a cart option. Nintendo doesn't even have one. Sony has a 10 limit. How long did it take for the 3DS to get folders? Sony with PS4? People are begging for Switch folders with every firmware update.

As I just explained to the poster above, Epic felt it wasn't feasible doing certain features at launch or decided that it was not worth prioritizing. But I guess it's easier to just say they're incompetent. This attitude is barely above the "lazy devs" rhetoric.
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,906
As I just explained to the poster above, Epic felt it wasn't feasible doing certain features at launch or decided that it was not worth prioritizing. But I guess it's easier to just say they're incompetent. This attitude is barely above the "lazy devs" rhetoric.
The fuck are you talking about? I literally told you that Epic has awesome developers and that the management decided to not go for those features.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,078
Agile software development is about defining what can be done within the sprint cycle. Epic, as much as you hate it, didn't feel like cloud saves were either capable of being implemented at launch or that it was not worth prioritizing. Why do you care if they're missing target dates? Are you a shareholder? I work in IT for a Fortune 200 company and our developers miss targets all the time. Development is hard.
He cares they miss target dates because their response to the criticism of having a totally barebones store was publishing their internal trello with the target dates. If the company is using target dates as a way to shield themselves against criticism, you should be allowed to criticize them when they have to move the target dates.

This wouldnt be a problem if they hadnt make the internal deadlines public btw, it was a self inflicted wound.

I don't need to act like these features are hard, yet as pointed out on this very thread, Xbox store took 17 years to get a cart option. Nintendo doesn't even have one. Sony has a 10 limit. How long did it take for the 3DS to get folders? Sony with PS4? People are begging for Switch folders with every firmware update.

As I just explained to the poster above, Epic felt it wasn't feasible doing certain features at launch or decided that it was not worth prioritizing. But I guess it's easier to just say they're incompetent. This attitude is barely above the "lazy devs" rhetoric.
It is not the customer problem that the console experience lags way behind the PC one, despite people having to pay for online in them too. Epic is competing with Steam, GoG, WindowsStore, and Origin in the PC landscape, which offer much more than MS or Sony (and lets not talk Nintendo shitty feature list which somehow was better in 3DS and Wii U).

And yeah, the problem is that Epic felt that the only real feature that was worth prioritizing at the launch of their store was moneyhating games so that they dont launch in Steam. Gotta remind that the store launched without a fucking search bar.
 

Phamit

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,941
None of these things are things to get excited about really (unless it directly affects/improves someone's situation), but if people are going to post about those things non-stop for months on end, and then vanish into a vape cloud after it gets implemented, then that's gonna perk up my alarm bells, or at the very least make me slightly suspicious
I mean you listed like a few things that epic solved out of very long list since december. It still lacks a lot and dripping features on such a low rate won't get anyone excited or change his mind. What exactly should they say? "Good, now implement all the other things you are still missing". On Top of that they still do their exclusive strategy which some people despise.
 
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Deleted member 3058

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,728
Agile software development is about defining what can be done within the sprint cycle. Epic, as much as you hate it, didn't feel like cloud saves were either capable of being implemented at launch or that it was not worth prioritizing. Why do you care if they're missing target dates? Are you a shareholder? I work in IT for a Fortune 200 company and our developers miss targets all the time. Development is hard.
Congrats, I guess? I'm part of a devops team for a Fortune 50 company. Being reliable is really important if you want to keep work flowing into your team in a highly competitive environment. Missing dates hurts that, which - again - is something that was completely avoidable.
He cares they miss target dates because their response to the criticism of having a totally barebones store was publishing their internal trello with the target dates. If the company is using target dates as a way to shield themselves against criticism, you should be allowed to criticize them when they have to move the target dates.

This wouldnt be a problem if they hadnt make the internal deadlines public btw, it was a self inflicted wound.
Exactly.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
Congrats, I guess? I'm part of a devops team for a Fortune 50 company. Being reliable is really important if you want to keep work flowing into your team in a highly competitive environment. Missing dates hurts that, which - again - is something that was completely avoidable.

Exactly.

I find it highly unlikely that Epic has a lack of work for any of their software teams if you're trying to indicate that risk is a real possibility for them. My point is that missing target dates happens all. the. time. No matter what industry, no matter what type of product, because shit happens.
 

Deleted member 3058

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,728
I find it highly unlikely that Epic has a lack of work for any of their software teams if you're trying to indicate that risk is a real possibility for them. My point is that missing target dates happens all. the. time. No matter what industry, no matter what type of product, because shit happens.
Missing target dates does happen all the time. Maybe my company is a bit more cutthroat than others but the workload (and subsequent funding) doesn't last if that is a constant problem. So when my team communicates a date we usually come in under that - and we do that while working 40 hour weeks.

But my other point seems to have been missed which is that I don't view the folks downloading the EGS client as their primary customers. They made sure to have a differentiating feature for their primary clients (the reduced cut) while initially offering none for the consumers. They're getting better by adding standard features in, which is a definite improvement.

To use your web browser analogy - if a new web browser released today with not a single feature intended for the folks downloading it and didn't even have feature parity with any of the standard browsers - it would be rightly ridiculed.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Great news!

Hopefully we get an hours played feature, I think that shouldn't be manual work for each game, but system-wide, but I'm not a developer so I don't know.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
Missing target dates does happen all the time. Maybe my company is a bit more cutthroat than others but the workload (and subsequent funding) doesn't last if that is a constant problem. So when my team communicates a date we usually come in under that - and we do that while working 40 hour weeks.

But my other point seems to have been missed which is that I don't view the folks downloading the EGS client as their primary customers. They made sure to have a differentiating feature for their primary clients (the reduced cut) while initially offering none for the consumers. They're getting better by adding standard features in, which is a definite improvement.

To use your web browser analogy - if a new web browser released today with not a single feature intended for the folks downloading it and didn't even have feature parity with any of the standard browsers - it would be rightly ridiculed.

Depending on the industry I can completely understand missing dates being harmful to revenue, I just don't think the impact for Epic missing features, even if they're industry standard like cloud saves or shopping carts, is that high. Your team does sound aggressive and efficient so that is cool. I wish our devs could do that, but alas our company is not primarily a technology company so our budgets are not as competitive as they should/could be.

Your point about developers being their primary clients instead of the consumers is true. I have no doubt that Epic is prioritizing catering to developers first and foremost because it seems to be their strategy. Get games, either through aggressive exclusive deals and/or lucrative splits, and then the consumers will come, everything else is secondary. This I get the anger over, but from a business standpoint, I can't really blame them. Microsoft did something similar when entering the console industry and basically threw money left and right to get a foothold in the market.

About the browsers, I should have clarified I was talking about the platform wars in the 00's when things like Chrome first launched or Firefox started becoming popular and what we now know as common features, would take a while to come to other platforms.