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Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
"Based on sales by region"
Maybe read better: "Based on sales by region"
AGAIN, that is a chart of STEAM PLAYER-BASE, derived from data of sales by region, as opposed to IP or some other method. Read the title of the infographic and stop clowning yourselves.

That sounds racist. Why would they buy less than a western customer?
Because they have less purchasing power. This is known by just about everyone in the gaming industry, and presumably other industries as well. Add in regional pricing and non-Western customers are worth even less. This isn't to say that those regions shouldn't be catered to, just that they're not worth as much revenue, and thus tend to be lower on the rung of consumers when it comes to prioritizing international support. Also see the concept of "country tiers": https://propellerads.com/blog/what-is-a-tier-of-traffic-and-what-tier-should-you-choose/

I think it's funny you find this racist when the entire point of regional pricing is to appeal to countries with less purchasing power. The philosophy there is that paying less is better than paying nothing.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,811
Great OP dex3108 , very well sourced.

So right now Steam eats the transaction fees and EGS solution is for the consumer to eat the transaction fee (which in time probably become devs eat the fee)?
So, if I am understanding this right, steam 30% everywhere is essentially allowing them to just eat the payment cost in other regions? And Epic only charges 12% so it cant do that?

Yes.

In many ways this issue is indicative of the difference in approach between Epic and Valve. Epic is trying to gain marketshare by catering exclusively to publisher and developer interests at the expense of customers while Valve has a customer-first attitude.
 

z1ggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,191
Argentina
That sucks, but someone has to pay it. It is great that Steam/Valve absorbs the cost, but I'm not sure I'd expect everyone to do the same. So what is the ideal solution here? Epic goes to an 85/15 (or something like that) split and then doesn't charge that fee? How would devs feel about that?
The ideal solution is what the market decides, if i want to pay less for a product ill choose the better option. EGS isnt the one so far.

Also not always matter the cut, how big is a market matters more. Think of a country, if you have a market with 150 million people but it has higher taxes vs if you have a market with 30 million peope with less taxes.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,960
Epic positioned the cut as the defining element of their platform. Not because it was meant to be, but because that cut was what Epic had available to them to rhetorically justify their intrusion into a space they're interested in only as a new revenue stream for themselves. Epic wants Steam's marketshare, after Steam helped prove to Epic that the space wasn't as worthless as Epic once claimed, and so Epic has since done everything in their power not to compete on merit or bring in new customers (two options that were well within their power to persue), but to twist the conversation to position themselves as a rhetorical 'good' to Valve's 'bad'. And it's been dishonest as hell, but it's worked on some.

The cut was only ever a strategic concession made in respect to two facts:
1) that EGS is not an especially ambitious platform and thus doesn't demand the R&D/maintenance expense of its competitors
2) that the EGS needed something to claim outward appeal to developers with in lieu of anything else besides publically admitting moneyhat bevahoir that the PC gaming community would have rejected outright

Their emphasis on the cut out of the gate was a calculated PR move whose value lied mostly in putting the onus on 'good behavior' on Steam and in changing the terms of what 'good behavior' meant so that Epic could operate in bad faith under less scrutiny. Epic's core intent is to damage our experience as users of other platforms in an attempt to get us using their own platform, so that we can pay them a cut. And they've realized a means by which to achieve this while positioning themselves shadily as a net-good for the industry, instead of as an entity who is outwardly only in it to take advantage of an ecosystem they see as newly healthy - which is the way Epic and EGS would have been percieved, just like certain superfluous platforms and storefronts before it, if Epic had been honest about the nature in which they actually secured exclusives to their platform.

tl;dr: Epic moneyhats. That's their trick, and you can't directly compete with that without shitting things up for those of us who like PC gaming today. The cut was meant to define and dictate the terms of the conversation surrounding EGS and its competitors, to obfuscate the moneyhatting and to encourage people who otherwise would have resisted the intrusion of EGS to defend it on the basis of altrusim and creating a better environment for developers.

They want us arguing for things that are against our interests as consumers in defense of Epic. And they also want us to collectively pressure Steam into lowering their revenue stream permanently, because from our perspective that's a net good. For Epic, though, it's just another means by which to carve an unearned hole into Steam's slice of the pie and insert themselves fully into it. Valve takes less and Epic is thereby more free to throw around their Fortnite bucks in the manner in which they have ACTUALLY chosen to compete. That's the value of 12% to Epic. Not as an altruistic endeavor, but as a calculated attack against Steam and our experience, that they could then portray as an altrustic endeavor in lieu of literally any other reason for us to consider their entry into the PC space as anything but an intrusion.
 
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Mentalist

Member
Mar 14, 2019
18,008
The 12% cut was at best oversimplified and at worst a lie pushed by way too many people

Yeah, Sweeney is trying to sell us good a good feeling for "helping the devs". But gamers aren't charities.

I'm willing to pay the markup for a game from a developer I like on GOG over Steam or a key seller who are generally likely to have a significantly lower price. But I do that because in exchange I get a DRM-free installer and the closest semblance of ownership I could get in the age of digital games. CD Project gives me a tangible benefit for my extra money.

EGS is yet to come up with a good USP from the consumer's POV.
 

Gabbo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,567
The paypal thing is new to me. That's how I buy a lot of games online when I dont have steam card funds or gift cards/prepaid credit cards.
And I'm not adding a credit card to paypal just for EGS. If they change that or their prepaid stance that would go some way to get me more interested in buying from them in the future. Right now, not so much
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
That sucks, but someone has to pay it. It is great that Steam/Valve absorbs the cost, but I'm not sure I'd expect everyone to do the same. So what is the ideal solution here? Epic goes to an 85/15 (or something like that) split and then doesn't charge that fee? How would devs feel about that?
I think the lowest Steam could realistically cut their store fee to and not run into payment processing issues is 20%. Likewise, I can't imagine Epic being able to afford to put wallet cards into stores until they increase their cut to 20%. Heck, assuming that a purchase attracts a 6% payment processing fee, that brings the effective Epic store cut up to nearly 17% already.

Assume a game has an RRP of €50.
Epic's standard store cut will, therefore, be €6.
Let's say somebody buys a game using a PaySafeCard. This adds a 6% payment processing fee, which in this case is €3. I assume Epic takes all of this money, otherwise they wouldn't be charging a payment processing fee in the first place.

Therefore, Epic takes €9 out of a €53 purchase, which is 16.98%
 

ZKenir

Member
Mar 31, 2018
4,437
EGS is a step forward for PC gaming. It's not perfect. But not many services are when they launch. It takes time and Epic is headed in the right direction and they're clearly devoted to being better.
A step forward that offloads on me additional costs and tries to undermine the system that let me pre-order games day 1 with a discount between 20% and 25%
 
Aug 29, 2018
1,089
This supports devs so I support it. Plain and simple. How many of us really dont have a bank account? Epics store is literally just another option on a platform many of us already own idk
 

voOsh

Member
Apr 5, 2018
1,665
A major concern I have with the argument that "EGS and 88/12 is good for PC gaming" is that it assumes more money for publishers will lead to more and better games. We will have to wait YEARS to find out if that is true and even then it will likely still be up for debate. To win me over EGS needs to contribute more concrete benefits now.
 
OP
OP
dex3108

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,598
slight offtopic - do Sony and Microsoft pass these costs on to consumers or do they eat them as well?

As far as i know they have limited payment support and don't pass fees to customers.

A major concern I have with the argument that "EGS and 88/12 is good for PC gaming" is that it assumes more money for publishers will lead to more and better games. We will have to wait YEARS to find out if that is true and even then it will likely still be up for debate. To win me over EGS needs to contribute more concrete benefits now.

You don't need to look far for that. How much money EA has and how much better their games became?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,635
I said revenue contribution.

Bit old but I doubt the Asia contribution has got smaller since they put this chart out.

WXkHqfC.jpg
 

z1ggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,191
Argentina
A major concern I have with the argument that "EGS and 88/12 is good for PC gaming" is that it assumes more money for publishers will lead to more and better games. We will have to wait YEARS to find out if that is true and even then it will likely still be up for debate. To win me over EGS needs to contribute more concrete benefits now.
That argument is based on trickle down economics, that usually never happens in reality.
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
All of this is pretty easily resolvable by Epic if they implement a policy that allows devs to get up to 88%

I've been thinking about this as well, but I think that would be rather anti-consumer. Many big publishers would go for the highest cut to maximize profits, especially if their games can't be bought anywhere else than on Epic's store.

One of the major benefits of Steam - at least from a consumer point of view - is that it offers a great amount of features and services for EVERY game that's being sold on it.
 

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
Please, explain how EGS is a step forward for PC Gaming.
I mean, if you consider that with the worsening landscape of the industry, the dropping revenue for big titles, the collapsing AAA bubble, etc, PC gaming as a whole has long been said to be basically standing on the precipice of disaster - then yes, EGS may well be a step forward for it.
 
OP
OP
dex3108

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,598
Based on their Roadmap they are working on having additional payment methods in the next 4-6 months (https://trello.com/b/GXLc34hk/epic-games-store-roadmap ). Probably not as simple as just taking a credit/debit card, and I'm sure they're working on something similar to Steam Giftcards as well.

Epic already has Vbuck cards for Fortnite so they know how much they cost, and if that 10-15% cut stays the same they can't. They can't support any payment method by themselves that takes more than 3-4%. They can add 100 more payment methods but if they are above 3-4% they will transfer costs to customer.
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,682
USA USA USA
Maintenance costs. Infrastructure for an online store they're developing themselves isnt free
yeah gotta pay for those cloud saves and shopping carts

How do we know that 12% isn't a bullshit number and the store could survive with 2%?
Some people say 30% isn't justified and too much. Why is 12% justified? Just because it is a lower number?

When people point out that Valve has specific costs, those costs are downplayed but Epic suddenly NEEDS those 12% to survive?

this is a better way to put the point i was trying to make yes
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,359
Maintenance costs. Infrastructure for an online store they're developing themselves isnt free

How do we know that 12% isn't a bullshit number and the store could survive with 2%?
Some people say 30% isn't justified and too much. Why is 12% justified? Just because it is a lower number?

When people point out that Valve has specific costs, those costs are downplayed but Epic suddenly NEEDS those 12% to survive?
 

Thorsten

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
285
Germany
User banned (2 weeks): long history of drive-by trolling in similar topics
I'll support Game Developers and the Epic Store.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,359
A major concern I have with the argument that "EGS and 88/12 is good for PC gaming" is that it assumes more money for publishers will lead to more and better games. We will have to wait YEARS to find out if that is true and even then it will likely still be up for debate. To win me over EGS needs to contribute more concrete benefits now.

Yeah, the stupid trickle-down argument.

Ask Activision-Blizzard, who gets 100% of a PC sale, how they invested their money into better games and paid the devs more.
Oh wait, they didn't! They gave the CEO a Bonus and fired 800 people.
 

ZKenir

Member
Mar 31, 2018
4,437
If everyone did that though, wouldn't the system break down? There is no way that is sustainable.
Why not? That's like selling the games on Steam since dev/pubs are taking advantage of not paying the 30% to Valve.
Devs/Pubs generate keys and then sell them to 3rd parties ( legit like these ), these parties have thin margins and in turn sell those games heavily discounted to buyers.

This has also allowed a very wide numbers of digital stores to thrive off this business, just take a look at that list I posted.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
Bit old but I doubt the Asia contribution has got smaller since they put this chart out.

WXkHqfC.jpg
This actually underscores my point quite well, but it's still not telling the full story. Let me elaborate:

LATAM, OCE, and CIS are effectively negligible. Tier 1 countries, which include NA and WE, are the bulk of sales.
Asia, whose top earner is likely China, is a country that Steam is not even operating in legally right now.
Per capita, both Korea is a high earner, but it's not really a Steam-dominant territory (Blizzard, Riot, and homegrown products have a foothold on the PC space there).

Anyway, given that LATAM+OCE+CIS are only 12%, of total revenue, this is why I think Epic should just cave in and allow or force devs to accept a smaller cut in those territories, as it won't really hurt revenue, while it will be more consumer-friendly. However, the other side of the equation is what kind of games each region tends to buy, but I'm going to throw out an educated guess that the types of experiences on EGS right now aren't the types of games that sell well in those regions. All of this probably lead to Epic launching without a clear T2/T3 strategy.

I've been thinking about this as well, but I think that would be rather anti-consumer. Many big publishers would go for the highest cut to maximize profits, especially if their games can't be bought anywhere else than on Epic's store.

One of the major benefits of Steam - at least from a consumer point of view - is that it offers a great amount of features and services for EVERY game that's being sold on it.
Yeah, after thinking about it more, I think it might be beneficial for everyone involved to just revise their policy to be 88% for certain payment methods/regions, and less for others.
 

Astra Planeta

Member
Jan 26, 2018
668
Why not? That's like selling the games on Steam since dev/pubs are taking advantage of not paying the 30% to Valve.
Devs/Pubs generate keys and then sell them to 3rd parties ( legit like these ), these parties have thin margins and in turn sell those games heavily discounted to buyers.

Doesn't valve never see a dollar from this? That is the unsustainable part. They are providing distribution for free. If every dev sold games like this and not on the steam store itself, how would valve ever make any money?
 

Mentalist

Member
Mar 14, 2019
18,008
I mean, if you consider that with the worsening landscape of the industry, the dropping revenue for big titles, the collapsing AAA bubble, etc, PC gaming as a whole has long been said to be basically standing on the precipice of disaster - then yes, EGS may well be a step forward for it.

Has it really been getting worse though?

I mean there's more high quality games than ever, and they are cheaper than ever. Literally every weekend I'm bombarded by offers from humble, GMG, Fanatical and GOG to buy good games (we'll ignore Steam itself for the sake of the "Steam is nothing but shovelware and asset flips" arguments).

From my point of view (as a consumer), things have been pretty great. Japanese publishers started releasing games on PC I never played before because they were console-only. Nearly every week at least one cool-sounding game pops up on PC.

Sure, there's been some stagnation among AAA publishers, turning most games into formulaic grindfests, but even then we still get games like Witcher 3, or the Dishonored series, so I'm not really seeing a "collapse", from where I'm standing.
 

Zukuu

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,809
People also reaaally need to understand that it's usually NOT the devs who get the money, but the publisher. Since EGS doesn't allow self-publishing, only few of the games are actual self-published indie titles.
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
Yeah, the stupid trickle-down argument.

Ask Activision-Blizzard, who gets 100% of a PC sale, how they invested their money into better games and paid the devs more.
Oh wait, they didn't! They gave the CEO a Bonus and fired 800 people.
Add to that people complaining Blizzard being slow with the development of new content, or Activision adding more and more microtransaction to the CoD games. As a consumer, I don't see how I'm being benefited by that.
 

Conkerkid11

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,957
This supports devs so I support it. Plain and simple. How many of us really dont have a bank account? Epics store is literally just another option on a platform many of us already own idk
Is there something I've been missing recently? As far as I'm aware, publishers aren't losing money at the moment. Publishers are making even more revenue than ever before, and that's continuing to rise. The problem with the game dev industry is how the actual developers are treated, and that's absolutely not fixed by this 12% cut.
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,682
USA USA USA
Doesn't valve never see a dollar from this? That is the unsustainable part. They are providing distribution for free. If every dev sold games like this and not on the steam store itself, how would valve ever make any money?
they are required to also sell the game through steam and plenty of people never use those stores because in their minds why would they its one more step just to save a few bucks
 

Shogun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,435
Why not? That's like selling the games on Steam since dev/pubs are taking advantage of not paying the 30% to Valve.
Devs/Pubs generate keys and then sell them to 3rd parties ( legit like these ), these parties have thin margins and in turn sell those games heavily discounted to buyers.

This has also allowed a very wide numbers of digital stores to thrive off this business, just take a look at that list I posted.

Yes and it's these very stores that have thrived on providing cheaper games to us consumers that Epic are going after. People enter these threads and think it's all about some loyalty to Steam when it really isn't.
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
"Not sure why you'd want to sponsor payment methods that can take up to 25% of the transaction, though."

This says enough about this. With a 12% cut, unless you want to drop processing fees on your customers, you can't support regional payment processors, limiting a ton of users in Asia and LATAM.

That may be true for Asia, but in Latam people who can afford games usually all have debit and credit cards.

Well that is not true

86f98da6cefb41f3d83321587a82217d65da621b.png




You as customer are paying the same amount. Price won't go down for you if cut changes.

Amazing, how Latino América is still a Console market only.
 

Harlequin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,614
That argument is based on trickle down economics, that usually never happens in reality.
In the case of big publishers perhaps. But a lot of the games on Epic's store are smaller indie titles which are often self-published. In that case the additional money actually goes directly to the studio and will help keep the lights on and the employees making games.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,314
Yes, because clearly the service would stop growing and changing like all other service and literally stay the same.

EGS is a step forward for PC gaming. It's not perfect. But not many services are when they launch. It takes time and Epic is headed in the right direction and they're clearly devoted to being better.


When a service launches with features worse than 2009 Steam and has anti-consumer, anti-indies and anti-3rd party store policies, that sound like either two steps backward... or a step forward to the grave.