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Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,487
Epic and their lawyers are not dumb. I do not understand all the armchair legal council here. They almost assuredly know they wont win this injunction. This isn't an "I've made a huge mistake" moment. They knew all this was going to happen. You don't hire the best lawyers money can buy for a landmark case and then not know this was a possibility. They have a strategy. Whether it works or not who knows but come on, some of yalls hate for Epic is causing some crazy dumb analysis.
 

SJurgenson

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,239
Epic and their lawyers are not dumb. I do not understand all the armchair legal council here. They almost assuredly know they wont win this injunction. This isn't an "I've made a huge mistake" moment. They knew all this was going to happen. You don't hire the best lawyers money can buy for a landmark case and then not know this was a possibility. They have a strategy. Whether it works or not who knows but come on, some of yalls hate for Epic is causing some crazy dumb analysis.

If you have a great plan, you don't taking a losing argument and try to sneak it past the same judge that already ruled your argument doesn't pass muster.
 

shinken

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,917
Yes. If you have it installed you can still play. You don't get the new stuff though, because the game can't be updated. It also doesn't support cross-play. Same issue on Google Play.
Oh wow, yeah, the game is also off the Google play store. iOS + Android is probably close to 50% of the userbase. Epic are losing so much money every single day. At this point they just don't want to put it back with in-app-store mtx, just to save face. Otherwise why wouldn't you put it back onto those two stores? The trial isn't going to be over in a few weeks. It might go on for years.
 

Dazraell

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
1,843
Poland
Well, Apple representatives stated multiple times that Epic can get back in if they revert the recent changes to Fortnite that were introduced behind their back. Epic had a full knowledge they're breaching company ToS and pulled this entire shitshow anyway. Their greediness and irrationality are the only reason why they're in this situation. A rational company would revert these changes and put their case in court. They've played a very risky gamble here and got exactly what they deserved.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
Epic and their lawyers are not dumb. I do not understand all the armchair legal council here. They almost assuredly know they wont win this injunction. This isn't an "I've made a huge mistake" moment. They knew all this was going to happen. You don't hire the best lawyers money can buy for a landmark case and then not know this was a possibility. They have a strategy. Whether it works or not who knows but come on, some of yalls hate for Epic is causing some crazy dumb analysis.
Trying to repeat the same argument that just lost in front of the same exact judge is bad law. Flat out.

Folks need to stop putting law firms on a pedestal of cant-do-wrong. Even the best law firm is only as good as the legal case of their client, and here the judge specifcally said the harm is of Epic's own doing, which means Epic is in control of why its game's are removed.
 
OP
OP
Oct 25, 2017
13,246
Epic and their lawyers are not dumb. I do not understand all the armchair legal council here. They almost assuredly know they wont win this injunction. This isn't an "I've made a huge mistake" moment. They knew all this was going to happen. You don't hire the best lawyers money can buy for a landmark case and then not know this was a possibility. They have a strategy. Whether it works or not who knows but come on, some of yalls hate for Epic is causing some crazy dumb analysis.

The lawyers may not be dumb but I wouldn't be so sure about Epic.

The premise that a multi-million dollar company cannot do something stupid is not something that can be stated and taken at face value.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,487
The lawyers may not be dumb but I wouldn't be so sure about Epic.

The premise that a multi-million dollar company cannot do something stupid is not something that can be stated and taken at face value.

I never said they can't make miatakes. I said there is almost no way they filed this expecting to win so I wouldn't attribute it to them suddenly having an "oh fuck" moment.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
I never said they can't make miatakes. I said there is almost no way they filed this expecting to win so I wouldn't attribute it to them suddenly having an "oh fuck" moment.
it is more likely Epic expected to fully win the TRO with Epic making 100% of its fortnite money while the case progressed for months into years. Instead the judge agreed that Apple was within its rights to remove fortnite and now Epic is making zero.
 
Jun 20, 2019
2,638
The judge said they had unclean hands two weeks ago, I have no idea why they think she would change her mind by the 28th.

e: Also they use pretty incendiary language when they say restoring the status quo would be "colluding with Apple".
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
This is not some surprise desperate move by Epic. People really are overestimating how desperate this would make Epic. They have enough cash to hold them through a few years of lost iOS revenue. This lawsuit is very intentional and they did not start it without knowing that a winning case may mean losing 2-3 years of revenue on iOS to hopefully save them millions in the many years after this case that they plan to make money on iOS. They are betting this will save them millions and millions in the years and even decades after they hopefully get Apple's cuts and rules regulated.
 

ascagnel

Member
Mar 29, 2018
2,197
Why didn't they file their lawsuit without the direct payment feature in the first place?

Did they need apple to remove fortnite to file the lawsuit?
More to the point: when the judge and Apple both said that Epic could remove the option and keep the game up on the store, why did they intentionally leave the purchase option in?
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
This is not some surprise desperate move by Epic. People really are overestimating how desperate this would make Epic. They have enough cash to hold them through a few years of lost iOS revenue. This lawsuit is very intentional and they did not start it without knowing that a winning case may mean losing 2-3 years of revenue on iOS to hopefully save them millions in the many years after this case that they plan to make money on iOS. They are betting this will save them millions and millions in the years and even decades after they hopefully get Apple's cuts and rules regulated.

Repeating the same losing legal argument is the definition of desperate.

And while epic can afford it, i imagine their investors will not be happy that Epic is sacrificing a third of the playerbase for the company's biggest moneymaker. Investors did not invest in epic for some flip of a coin legal battle.
 

Mingoguaya

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,859
Ok, let me see if I understand this correctly. 1000 vBucks via direct payment to Epic is 7.99. If you do it the old way (via Apple in the App Store is 9.99). So why won't Epic leave it the old way and that's it? They still make their 7.99 and Apple makes their 1.99 and everyone is happy. (Sorry if my math is wrong, I play on Xbox).
 

KelThaFunkee

Member
Oct 27, 2017
176
When will Epic realize, people don't buy iPhones to play Fortnite, iPhone owners play Fortnite because it's on iPhone.
 

Garbrenn

Member
Oct 30, 2017
581
Ok, let me see if I understand this correctly. 1000 vBucks via direct payment to Epic is 7.99. If you do it the old way (via Apple in the App Store is 9.99). So why won't Epic leave it the old way and that's it? They still make their 7.99 and Apple makes their 1.99 and everyone is happy. (Sorry if my math is wrong, I play on Xbox).
If the split is 30% apple would make 3 dollars and epic 7.

Also greed, from both parties.
 

treasureyez

Member
Nov 23, 2017
1,336
When will Epic realize, people don't buy iPhones to play Fortnite, iPhone owners play Fortnite because it's on iPhone.

Of course they realize this. It's core to their entire argument that Apple is unfairly blocking access to consumers who choose iOS as their computing platform.

Ok, let me see if I understand this correctly. 1000 vBucks via direct payment to Epic is 7.99. If you do it the old way (via Apple in the App Store is 9.99). So why won't Epic leave it the old way and that's it? They still make their 7.99 and Apple makes their 1.99 and everyone is happy. (Sorry if my math is wrong, I play on Xbox).

This isn't about vBucks in Fortnite. It's about setting a legal precedent for not having to do everything through the platform holder's proprietary services.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
This is not some surprise desperate move by Epic. People really are overestimating how desperate this would make Epic. They have enough cash to hold them through a few years of lost iOS revenue. This lawsuit is very intentional and they did not start it without knowing that a winning case may mean losing 2-3 years of revenue on iOS to hopefully save them millions in the many years after this case that they plan to make money on iOS. They are betting this will save them millions and millions in the years and even decades after they hopefully get Apple's cuts and rules regulated.
But as the judge pointed out, they didn't need to lose all of their iOS revenue in order to challenge Apple's cut in the first place. So if Epic is indeed playing 4D chess here, the explanation would seemingly be that it's for PR as part of their whole #FreeFortnite campaign.

What I don't understand though is why they think getting repeatedly told to fuck off by a judge will help their PR. If anything, it would be better to not file all of these losing legal requests because then they don't get news headlines about how the takedown is being described as "self-inflicted".
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,905
Ok, let me see if I understand this correctly. 1000 vBucks via direct payment to Epic is 7.99. If you do it the old way (via Apple in the App Store is 9.99). So why won't Epic leave it the old way and that's it? They still make their 7.99 and Apple makes their 1.99 and everyone is happy. (Sorry if my math is wrong, I play on Xbox).
Instead of "just" making 700 million dollars revenue last year Epic decided that they want the full 1 billion dollars.


I hope that somehow something magical happens to this case and Apple gets forced to lower its cut for (almost) all Devs while Epic has to pay 50% instead of 30%.
 

Ghostwalker

Member
Oct 30, 2017
582
Ok, let me see if I understand this correctly. 1000 vBucks via direct payment to Epic is 7.99. If you do it the old way (via Apple in the App Store is 9.99). So why won't Epic leave it the old way and that's it? They still make their 7.99 and Apple makes their 1.99 and everyone is happy. (Sorry if my math is wrong, I play on Xbox).

Epic probably planned to up the price to 9.99 when they won.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
Of course they realize this. It's core to their entire argument that Apple is unfairly blocking access to consumers who choose iOS as their computing platform.



This isn't about vBucks in Fortnite. It's about setting a legal precedent for not having to do everything through the platform holder's proprietary services.

The judge in the case told Epic they can argue the case without having to break the ToS and Apple's rules.
 

Mingoguaya

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,859
If the split is 30% apple would make 3 dollars and epic 7.

Also greed, from both parties.
OK, so Epic is crying for $1. (I know its not a buck but millions upon millions of dollars but you know what I mean). I rather not make a bunch of millions (that I wasn't making before, anyway) than to miss out on MILLIONS of dollars. Then again, that's why I'm not a corporate CFO. 🤷🏽‍♂️
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,376
Repeating the same losing legal argument is the definition of desperate.

And while epic can afford it, i imagine their investors will not be happy that Epic is sacrificing a third of the playerbase for the company's biggest moneymaker. Investors did not invest in epic for some flip of a coin legal battle.

It's a privately held company. I don't think Tencent cares and Tim owns a majority of shares. I do think that a resolution in 2-3 years is wishful thinking at best.

Edit: I do think that Epic will comply with the judge's ruling and Fortnite will return to iOS long before there is a resolution to this lawsuit.
 

digreyfox

Member
Nov 7, 2017
457
Epic's lawyers are most definitely not amateurs.

The filing also does not seem desperate or stupid at all. Granted, they are likely to have the same outcome as they did with the TRO.

However, the lawsuit will likely be very long and, regardless of the merits of Epic's claim (over which there was a long discussion in the TRO thread), they have an argument to make and even if the TI gets rejected, they likely do not want to put themselves in a position where, further down the line in the lawsuit, a judge or Apple's counsel might argue that "if Epic were so sure of the soundness of their argument/if they did not see the flaw in their argument, then they could have filed for a TI, and the fact that they did not shows how Epic themselves see how little merit there is to this claim".

EDIT: On the PR circus, I find the spin funny that Epic are "building an army" to fight Apple and the ridiculous Apple ad video and so forth, when in fact they are preventing almost 200 million people from enjoying their game, including the content many of these people purchased, for the sake of extracting more money.

Also, there is no way projections were not made for the different scenarios of implementing this strategy. There are certainly several excel spreadsheets with how much this can cost them, how long they can afford to go on without iOS and what the legal and marketing fees will be. No one is going "oh shi- we never anticipated this" at Epic.
 

gifyku

Member
Aug 17, 2020
2,737
If you have a great plan, you don't taking a losing argument and try to sneak it past the same judge that already ruled your argument doesn't pass muster.

This is not how things work in legal cases. Epic is building a case file since this case is bound to go to upper courts. Every argument gets entered into the record, along with evidence and counter arguments, for higher courts to consider and potentially change how the lower courts ruled (based on precedent or existing case law as interpreted by the particualr court. )

The armchair analysis here of "Epic didnt know what was going to happen" needs to stop, regardless of what we think of them as a company. I recommend listening to the Verge podcast for these types of cases; Nilay is a lawyer and usually gives a measured analysis of what is happening (regardless of whether you agree with his opinions on how things should go.)
 
Oct 29, 2017
6,248
This entire farce isn't about winning in a court of law, it's about the court of public opinion. Make Apple look to theirs fans like the bad guy.
Now, how that will offset their loss from iOS IAPs, I dunno. Guess Epic didn't think that far ahead.

It's been truly amazing seeing this blow up in Epic's face from a PR standpoint.

And frustrating, given that Apple's stewardship of the App Store HAS been greedy and capricious. But Epic being trusted to fight that is a bad joke.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
But as the judge pointed out, they didn't need to lose all of their iOS revenue in order to challenge Apple's cut in the first place. So if Epic is indeed playing 4D chess here, the explanation would seemingly be that it's for PR as part of their whole #FreeFortnite campaign.

What I don't understand though is why they think getting repeatedly told to fuck off by a judge will help their PR. If anything, it would be better to not file all of these losing legal requests because then they don't get news headlines about how the takedown is being described as "self-inflicted".
Most of their customers will never hear what judges said to Epic. They will just see on tech sites and twitter that lots of companies like Xbox and Facebook are also saying Apple is anti-competitive. And that's what Epic needs most in some ways. Epic can afford to lose this, but they are investing in a broad industry and consumer price consciousness smackdown against Apple that they hope will get them regulated. Epic didn't make up the antitrust heat that Apple is getting. Apple has been on the verge of getting regulated here for a while, and Epic just is spending in every avenue that helps flip the switch - even if they don't get endlessly favorable rulings in their own case. They are getting the judges to point out that Apple is dominant and has no App Store competition for around half of all Americans. That's a problem for Apple and Epic is moving the needle.

I don't think Epic is sincere and anything besides selfish, but the framing by posters here that Epic didn't expect to lose out on iOS money for the next few years if they need to is just nonsense.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
It's a privately held company. I don't think Tencent cares and Tim owns a majority of shares. I do think that a resolution in 2-3 years is wishful thinking at best.

You do know privately held companies have investors? And im sure Tencent does care that epic will not be making as much money as they do right now. If they didnt, they are poor investors.

This is not how things work in legal cases. Epic is building a case file since this case is bound to go to upper courts. Every argument gets entered into the record, along with evidence and counter arguments, for higher courts to consider and potentially change how the lower courts ruled (based on precedent or existing case law as interpreted by the particualr court. )

The armchair analysis here of "Epic didnt know what was going to happen" needs to stop, regardless of what we think of them as a company. I recommend listening to the Verge podcast for these types of cases; Nilay is a lawyer and usually gives a measured analysis of what is happening (regardless of whether you agree with his opinions on how things should go.)

You are litearly the doing the same thing but in the opposite direction. That everything Epic is doing is some 5th D chess plan, which is not how legal cases go.
 

IronicSonic

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,639
It seems Apple loyalty is bigger than Fortnite loyalty.

Seems Epic has no case here. I wonder if this was just a test of Epic evaluating how many Apple/Fortnite users jump to another ecosystem
 

Mingoguaya

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,859
This isn't about vBucks in Fortnite. It's about setting a legal precedent for not having to do everything through the platform holder's proprietary services.
Oh, I know this. But turn the table and imagine that a company that doesn't want to pay the hefty fees that Epic most likely charges to license Unreal Engine takes them to court because Epic is "stifling development with their outrageous licensing fees". I'm with Apple in this one. If you want to play in Apple's house, you need to abide by the rules that everyone else is abiding to or lose all that sweet revenue. But to change the rules JUST for Epic is unfair for the rest of the developers who would use this as a legal basis to want the same treatment from Apple.
 
Last edited:

treasureyez

Member
Nov 23, 2017
1,336
The judge in the case told Epic they can argue the case without having to break the ToS and Apple's rules.

I'm not trying to advocate for Epic's methods here, just discussing their motivations.

Transparently, I agree with their overall goal of allowing developers (including themselves) to have direct access to users regardless of their computing platform — but I think they are being pretty reckless in their approach. Not sure it will work out like they think.

Oh, I know this. But turn the table and imagine that a company that doesn't want to pay the hefty fees that Epic most likely charges to license Unreal Engine takes them to court to court because Epic is "stifling development with their outrageous licensing fees". I'm with Apple in this one. If you want to play in Apple's house, you need to abide by the rules that everyone else is abiding to or lose all that sweet revenue. But to change the rules JUST for Epic is unfair for the rest of the developers who would use this as a legal basis to want the same treatment from Apple.

I don't think Epic's goals are to have these changes only apply to themselves — not because they're benevolent, of course, but because it would weaken their argument.
 

Ghostwalker

Member
Oct 30, 2017
582
I think Epic might be a lot more screwed then they are letting on.

Firstly if Apple and Epic are no longer doing business and Epic are not after compensation is their even a legal case?

Secondly if Epic wants to get back on IOS and they cannot get an injunction they will have to sign a new contract and Apple is going to make sure they are far better protected from any of Epics BS in the new terms.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,315
Seattle
Epic and their lawyers are not dumb. I do not understand all the armchair legal council here. They almost assuredly know they wont win this injunction. This isn't an "I've made a huge mistake" moment. They knew all this was going to happen. You don't hire the best lawyers money can buy for a landmark case and then not know this was a possibility. They have a strategy. Whether it works or not who knows but come on, some of yalls hate for Epic is causing some crazy dumb analysis.

The legal briefs so far have sounded suspiciously like Tim Sweeney had a significant hand in writing them.

This could all easily be a law firm doing things despite advising their client to do something else. Or simply taking them for a ride..
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
Repeating the same losing legal argument is the definition of desperate.

And while epic can afford it, i imagine their investors will not be happy that Epic is sacrificing a third of the playerbase for the company's biggest moneymaker. Investors did not invest in epic for some flip of a coin legal battle.
They are gonna request help from court at every step. It happens in any giant court battle. You file any chance you can to see if the judge will be lenient and set favorable precedent in the case. Epic wants to tip the scale that Apple has been fighting for a while. Apple is on the verge of being regulated and even if Epic doesn't get big self-centered wins, they just need this to influence congress or regulators long term. And now they have tons of companies on record agreeing with them against Apple, and tons of consumers pointing out that Apple has no competitors to help with pricing competition. Epic is definitely getting arguments out there, and the courts themselves have even said they are seeing the issues that may be in question since Apps cannot be bought from anyone except Apple. Apple has been getting heat, and there's no way to say this case hasn't turned up the heat for Apple when it comes to fear of regulation.

Epic is not desperate. They are huge and rich and are willing to get Apple scrutinized for years.
 

Shopolic

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
6,821
4dxw6f.jpg
lol
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
They are gonna request help from court at every step. It happens in any giant court battle. You file any chance you can to see if the judge will be lenient and set favorable precedent in the case. Epic wants to tip the scale that Apple has been fighting for a while. Apple is on the verge of being regulated and even if Epic doesn't get big self-centered wins, they just need this to influence congress or regulators long term. And now they have tons of companies on record agreeing with them against Apple, and tons of consumers pointing out that Apple has no competitors to help with pricing competition. Epic is definitely getting arguments out there, and the courts themselves have even said they are seeing the issues that may be in question since Apps cannot be bought from anyone except Apple. Apple has been getting heat, and there's no way to say this case hasn't turned up the heat for Apple when it comes to fear of regulation.

Epic is not desperate. They are huge and rich and are willing to get Apple scrutinized for years.

its literally the same exact legal argument the judge in the case just rendered an order about. You think the judge has a one week memory and just forgot about what was ruled before? Repeating the same legal argument in front of the judge that you just lost is not a winning legal argument.

This part of the case has nothing to do with the overall legal case its just about letting fortnite back onto the store so Epic can make money again, and the judge has already ruled on what needs to be done so Epic can get Fornite back, the judge has already stated, Epic is at fault for why Fornite is removed and only Epic can get it back by changing it back to before the case while the case is ongoing.
 

Ghostwalker

Member
Oct 30, 2017
582
The legal briefs so far have sounded suspiciously like Tim Sweeney had a significant hand in writing them.

This could all easily be a law firm doing things despite advising their client to do something else. Or simply taking them for a ride..

I think its both the lawyers will advise on the best course, but Epic will not listen they will follow their instructions and bill by the hour.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
Most of their customers will never hear what judges said to Epic. They will just see on tech sites and twitter that lots of companies like Xbox and Facebook are also saying Apple is anti-competitive. And that's what Epic needs most in some ways. Epic can afford to lose this, but they are investing in a broad industry and consumer price consciousness smackdown against Apple that they hope will get them regulated. Epic didn't make up the antitrust heat that Apple is getting. Apple has been on the verge of getting regulated here for a while, and Epic just is spending in every avenue that helps flip the switch - even if they don't get endlessly favorable rulings in their own case. They are getting the judges to point out that Apple is dominant and has no App Store competition for around half of all Americans. That's a problem for Apple and Epic is moving the needle.

I don't think Epic is sincere and anything besides selfish, but the framing by posters here that Epic didn't expect to lose out on iOS money for the next few years if they need to is just nonsense.
I'm framing it like that because this injunction request is specifically done so that they don't have to lose out on Fortnite money while the lawsuit is going on. If we're not going to lake Epic's logic at face value, then what is the benefit to this particular legal move? The lawsuit is already in motion and if they are prepared to lose out on Fortnite money, then they can just do that.