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Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,100
Chesire, UK
"As you know, many companies are exploring this idea and not a single one can explain how cross-console play improves the PlayStation business."

For. The. Players.

For real though, Sony have a dominant market position and are exploiting it for all it's worth. This sort of shitty behaviour is what capitalism and the free market gets you.

There are no moral actors here, just people legally obliged to extract the most value for their shareholders.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,918
I don't understand. Your reasoning is "Sony already makes enough money, so they should be okay making less?"

I mean if someone comes to you at work, and asks you to do something that resuls in you getting payed less, wouldn't you tell him "I'll do it if my payment remains the same." ?
This would be like you were the highest paid employee with the most seniority and your employer went and hired some other employees who were really green, but then started doing a better job than you over time and so the employer decided to give the newbies raises instead of you or potentially even lay you off.

It sucks but how can you argue that that's not the fair, rational way to do it.
 

Zweisy1

Member
Oct 30, 2017
561
Absolutely disgusting by SONY. Making me wish they would port Returnal to PC so I wouldnt feel tempted to support their platform.. Most of their first party stuff I can live without and these kind of shitty practises deserve a boycott.
 

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,641
This would be like you were the highest paid employee with the most seniority and your employer went and hired some other employees who were really green, but then started doing a better job than you over time and so the employer decided to give the newbies raises instead of you or potentially even lay you off.

It sucks but how can you argue that that's not the fair, rational way to do it.

That's not it. You are forgetting the part where you are still doing 50% of the whole work.
 

jayu26

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,587
Absolutely disgusting by SONY. Making me wish they would port Returnal to PC so I wouldnt feel tempted to support their platform.. Most of their first party stuff I can live without and these kind of shitty practises deserve a boycott.
If you can explain to me which part of this is absolutely disgusting and not something you would do if you were running PlayStation i will sell my PS5.
 

Deleted member 27751

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,997
That's not it. You are forgetting the part where you are still doing 50% of the whole work.
But isn't the idea behind this whole tactic by Sony to somehow validate them "allowing" crossplay yet "recouping losses" when people purchase microtransactions elsewhere. Who cares if PS4/5 have the biggest playerbase yet more people purchase skins on Xbox, you still have the biggest playerbase and therefore more chance of converting them to other store purchases outside of that game.

There is no other way to look at this practice other than pure greed. They want both the cake and to eat it. Unless Sony is taking a hit on their server front by having the higher playerbase, which if it's any modern game in the past 10 years they have their own servers instead, then there is no reason they should be able to guilt demand developers into some crossplay tax.
 

Liliana

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,375
NYC
User Banned (2 Months): Ignoring staff post with antagonistic platform warring. Long history of infractions for platform warring and hostility.
If you can explain to me which part of this is absolutely disgusting and not something you would do if you were running PlayStation i will sell my PS5.

The corporate apologists here need to fucking stop. So a company can do some disgusting, shady shit that fucks over consumers and/or devs that is solely in their best interest for their bottom line and... it's okay because they're running their business?
 

Aztorian

Member
Jan 3, 2018
1,456
Is this real? Kinda weird to see an official document for attorneys with a Playstation branding like it's some kind of ad.
 

jayu26

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,587
The corporate apologists here need to fucking stop. So a company can do some disgusting, shady shit that fucks over consumers and/or devs that is solely in their best interest for their bottom line and... it's okay because they're running their business?
Explain to me part that fucks fucks over consumers and devs.
 

Laver

Banned
Mar 30, 2018
2,654
If you can explain to me which part of this is absolutely disgusting and not something you would do if you were running PlayStation i will sell my PS5.
Most multiplayer games are no Fortnites or Minecrafts of the world and have rather small playerbases, even on Playstation. The smaller the playerbase, the less eager players are to put up with long matchmaking times etc. which further drives them away from those games, which in turn leads to fewer opportunity for microtransactions on all platforms including Playstation. Sony is putting developers of smaller multiplayer games in a precarious situation, which ultimately hurts Sony's own ecosystem as well.

Not that I'd call it disgusting, but very short-sighted on Sony's part.
 

gothi

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 23, 2020
4,433
Is this real? Kinda weird to see an official document for attorneys with a Playstation branding like it's some kind of ad.
Pretty standard for corporate presentations to have a set colour scheme and branding on it. Every slide deck I make for my employer has the corporate colours and branding built-in to the template and it's mandated that the template is used.
 

19thCenturyFox

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,309
The corporate apologists here need to fucking stop. So a company can do some disgusting, shady shit that fucks over consumers and/or devs that is solely in their best interest for their bottom line and... it's okay because they're running their business?

Doesn't mean the person you quoted has to like it or support it, they just understand that Sony is in a position where Sony going all in with cross play will hurt their business more than it helps it without contracts like the one outlined in this thread.

There is wiggle room here to point that out and not be a corporate apologist.
 

Oregano

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,878
I think the thing being largely glossed over(I've seen a few people mention it) is that this effectively locks in Epic to favouring the PS version and only doing PS specific promotions(don't PS players get unique items?). If hypothetically Nintendo agreed Samus could appear in Fortnite after all but could only be redeemed/purchased on Switch that would encourage people who might normally play on PS to spend some money on the Switch version. If that happens in sufficient numbers Epic then has to pay both Nintendo AND Sony which means there is a lot less incentive for them to do that.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
This really feels like someone that should be abolished, and they can make a big deal about it to get brownie points.
 

jayu26

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,587
Most multiplayer games are no Fortnites or Minecrafts of the world and have rather small playerbases, even on Playstation. The smaller the playerbase, the less eager players are to put up with long matchmaking times etc. which further drives them away from those games, which in turn leads to fewer opportunity for microtransactions on all platforms including Playstation. Sony is putting developers of smaller multiplayer games in a precarious situation, which ultimately hurts Sony's own ecosystem as well.

Not that I'd call it disgusting, but very short-sighted on Sony's part.
What you are saying if true, but seems to me that they are okay with cross play as long as they get cut from players playing on their platforms, even if they buy MTX from other platforms. How is that stance anti-consumer and why would that be hurdle for smaller devs is something that I don't understand. They are not asking for overall cut from all MTX.
 

19thCenturyFox

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,309
This really feels like someone that should be abolished, and they can make a big deal about it to get brownie points.

Exactly, easy marketing win. Especially during a generational transition with competition that is lighting a fire under their ass this is the perfect time to get rid of stuff like this. Sony right now isn't in as secure a position as they were when they dictated the terms of the cross play agreement.
 

Laver

Banned
Mar 30, 2018
2,654
What you are saying if true, but seems to me that they are okay with cross play as long as they get cut from players playing on their platforms, even if they buy MTX from other platforms. How is that stance anti-consumer and why would that be hurdle for smaller devs is something that I don't understand. They are not asking for overall cut from all MTX.

It forces smaller developers to pay Sony tax if players on other platforms happen to be bigger spenders for whatever historical reasons, or whatever random reason causes spikes in sales on a competing platform.

I'd like to see a breakdown of currently active multiplayer games with and without crossplay.
 

jayu26

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,587
It forces smaller developers to pay Sony tax if players on other platforms happen to be bigger spenders for whatever historical reasons, or whatever random reason causes spikes in sales on a competing platform.

I'd like to see a breakdown of currently active multiplayer games with and without crossplay.
My understanding is that if said players aren't playing on PlayStation then they Sony doesn't get anything. Is that incorrect understanding?
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,918
That's not it. You are forgetting the part where you are still doing 50% of the whole work.

You're assuming multiplatform owners will prefer to play on PS but pay on another platform. While it's common for people to split game time a bit between secondary platforms, I think it's much more logical to assume they will probably do ALL their in-game purchases through their primary platform as that's where they spend the most time.

Hence you have a situation where maybe due to the controller type or some special quality of life features, a player developing a preference for a NON-PS platform ends up costing a developer money as well as time and effort (this type of compliance shit is a huge time sink). Basically if another platform does something to be more competitive than Sony and convince players to use it as their primary place to play, then the developer has to pay Sony 85% of the difference.

That's like having a contractually obligated participation trophy.
 

Squall93

Member
Oct 29, 2017
295
Paris
It forces smaller developers to pay Sony tax if players on other platforms happen to be bigger spenders for whatever historical reasons, or whatever random reason causes spikes in sales on a competing platform.

No this clause only concerns playstation players who play the game on PS4 but will buy MTX on other store
 

Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,230
Is this real? Kinda weird to see an official document for attorneys with a Playstation branding like it's some kind of ad.

It's not made for attorneys. It's Sony presentation (for developers) that was originally sealed (thus only for attorneys) - but was unsealed and made public after Sony failed to convince to judge to keep it secret.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,102
But isn't the idea behind this whole tactic by Sony to somehow validate them "allowing" crossplay yet "recouping losses" when people purchase microtransactions elsewhere. Who cares if PS4/5 have the biggest playerbase yet more people purchase skins on Xbox, you still have the biggest playerbase and therefore more chance of converting them to other store purchases outside of that game.

There is no other way to look at this practice other than pure greed. They want both the cake and to eat it. Unless Sony is taking a hit on their server front by having the higher playerbase, which if it's any modern game in the past 10 years they have their own servers instead, then there is no reason they should be able to guilt demand developers into some crossplay tax.

This also had to do with fear certain of things also happening and yes greed is a part .
You are running a business and you get 30% of the MTX money because people have to buy on your store
You open up cross play but in this it more about cross store and there is the possibility than the pub can cut you out by making app\site where things cheaper or bypass the PS store.
At the end of the days pubs will look to take advantage but it the same for the platform holder .
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,910
If it's about fairness then I wonder why this policy doesn't work in reverse? Like if PlayStation spending exceeds playtime by 115% or more, should Sony cut Epic a check?
 

Laver

Banned
Mar 30, 2018
2,654
No this clause only concerns playstation players who play the game on PS4 but will buy MTX on other store
My understanding is that if said players aren't playing on PlayStation then they Sony doesn't get anything. Is that incorrect understanding?
If it concerns only revenue from linked PS accounts, but completely leaves out people (revenue from people) who never used PS to play the game, then it's less stringent than I'd thought.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
Sony is asking for a large amount of global and territory by territory data, monthly, which could be a problem for a lot of developers and publishers, especially small ones. All so Sony can keep track of their playerbase and where they are at any given time and if they're spending outside of their ecosystem. It is absurd.
 

jayu26

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,587
Sony is asking for a large amount of global and territory by territory data, monthly, which could be a problem for a lot of developers and publishers, especially small ones. All so Sony can keep track of their playerbase and where they are at any given time and if they're spending outside of their ecosystem. It is absurd.
This is a genuinely good argument, and not just because it is an issue for smaller devs, but because it might get into issues such as privacy concerns.
 

Splader

Member
Feb 12, 2018
5,063
People still going on about how this is a great business move and so that makes it okay, huh.

This is bad for consumers because cross play is good for consumers and this is another obstacle for getting as many games as possible into cross play. It's that simple.
 

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
I found the situation confusing. Tried to read through the thread to understand it better. Thread is mostly just

Person A: "This negatively impacts me as a consumer."
Person B: "You clearly cannot read, this is actually smart business."

Repeated to infinity. Like being the 182nd person to come into a thread and point out that Sony is in fact a business is enlightening or revelatory.

But I think I understand what's happening here a little better now.
 

Delroy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,739
Seattle
I'd say I was surprised to see people defending this, but who am I kidding? I get the business side but as a gamer it sucks and doesn't benefit me.
 

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,641
You're assuming multiplatform owners will prefer to play on PS but pay on another platform. While it's common for people to split game time a bit between secondary platforms, I think it's much more logical to assume they will probably do ALL their in-game purchases through their primary platform as that's where they spend the most time.

Hence you have a situation where maybe due to the controller type or some special quality of life features, a player developing a preference for a NON-PS platform ends up costing a developer money as well as time and effort (this type of compliance shit is a huge time sink). Basically if another platform does something to be more competitive than Sony and convince players to use it as their primary place to play, then the developer has to pay Sony 85% of the difference.

That's like having a contractually obligated participation trophy.

Again. This is not the case. It's the opposite. This is about user thinking the Playstation platform is more enticing that's why they spend most of their gaming time there, but for some reason they decide to buy their V-Bucks on the MS-Store instead.

If it concerns only revenue from linked PS accounts, but completely leaves out people (revenue from people) who never used PS to play the game, then it's less stringent than I'd thought.

it is.
 

gothi

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 23, 2020
4,433
This is a genuinely good argument, and not just because it is an issue for smaller devs, but because it might get into issues such as privacy concerns.
I think a lot of people are skipping over this and realistically it's probably the thing that's stopping cross-play/progression more than the financial side (which now the full contract is available many need to revalidate their position on, including myself).

It is a lot of data they ask for and may be at odds with the data sharing agreements with other platforms as Sony require significant data on player activity on rival systems should a player ever log into the game on PS4 and another platform. I've done this myself and wasn't aware my activity on platform X was being actively shared with platform Y.
As for auditing, anyone who has been audited by a big firm knows that it is incredibly disruptive and puts a lot of things on hold whilst you resolve the immediate audit.

That's a lot to ask to enable cross-play/progression. I totally get why they do it, but it's a significant barrier to enablement and benefits no-one but Sony.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
59,993
I'm surprised people are shocked given the history of this business and business in general. The top dogs always use their advantage, whether it's Nintendo with the NES in North America with their mininum cart orders and crazy contracts with 3rd parties and now Sony with this.

I think gaming brings this on themselves because of fanboy culture. People become "fans" of these companies when they're really just self interested entities like any other business.

We need more sobriety in assessing these companies here.
 
Dec 21, 2020
5,066
Is this case against Sony?? Lol

Sony real bad here, wasn't the intention to show Apple was the bad guy?
Apple is the scapegoat in all of this imo, their real target seems to always have been Sony and anyone else who is trying to implement a similar type of practice for posterity sake. Apple doesn't even contribute that much from fortnite in the revenue. Suing Sony would cause a bigger loss in cash and not spin as many heads or get as much attention. This one, against Apple of all companies, gets the most attention and highest publicity.

It's a multi-pronged attack you could say ;-)


But this was only day 1
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
59,993
I'm not a lawyer, but I love seeing the power of discovery disclosing all his stuff. I don't know how Epic has a case against Apple here when they agreed to much crazier Sony terms.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,918
Again. This is not the case. It's the opposite. This is about user thinking the Playstation platform is more enticing that's why they spend most of their gaming time there, but for some reason they decide to buy their V-Bucks on the MS-Store instead.

I don't get it, what is the scenario where a person would prefer to play on Playstation but do a disproportionate amount of their purchases on another (less comfortable) platform?
 

Reaper55

Member
Oct 25, 2017
152
Buying MtX doesn't usually cross over like it does for Fortnite?

Epic can run a sale where they offer 30% off vbucks on their digital store on a web browser but keep it non discounted anywhere else (30% is the cut that consoles take). They can make their store look more attractive and encourage the adoption if their digital storefront.

Look at Apex Legends for example, you can cross play, but you do not have cross progression . Your battle pass rank does not share and your coins stay platform locked.

Look at Outriders, you can cross play. The game currently doesn't have MTX, but you still can't cross progression. You must make a new character if you want to play on PS5 from a pc.

Destiny 2 allows you to cross progression, but restricts Silver to the platform you purchased it on.

In Fortnite , your skin unlocked on ps4 transfer to PC. The vbucks you buy stay on their console you purchased them on (ps, switch, pc/mobile, xbox), but unlocking a skin in your account make it available everywhere. This is not typically available for crossplay games.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
59,993
Oh look, Arrogant Sony is back.

this is not a good look.

I think these types of takes are bad. I get it's a funny quip, but we need to stop looking at these businesses as people, using human descriptors like arrogant. They're an impersonal business with top marketshare. They're going to act accordingly.
 

Deleted member 8791

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,383
Sony is asking for a large amount of global and territory by territory data, monthly, which could be a problem for a lot of developers and publishers, especially small ones. All so Sony can keep track of their playerbase and where they are at any given time and if they're spending outside of their ecosystem. It is absurd.
I'm surprised this isn't talked about more as it clearly is a lot of work to do this every month and it might not even be info you would want to share in the first place.
 

Deleted member 1698

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,254
I don't get it, what is the scenario where a person would prefer to play on Playstation but do a disproportionate amount of their purchases on another (less comfortable) platform?

When someone like epic does a deal with Microsoft and cuts all the fees and consequently prices for their microtransactions just to fuck over a competitor. Say moving from 30% to 12% short term.

And before people say "well that wouldn't happen" , why wouldn't it happen? Well because agreements are in place...

And before people say "well why do I care?" well consider what happens when Sony is out of business and that 12% goes back to 40% because why not?
 

RailWays

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,667
Sony is asking for a large amount of global and territory by territory data, monthly, which could be a problem for a lot of developers and publishers, especially small ones. All so Sony can keep track of their playerbase and where they are at any given time and if they're spending outside of their ecosystem. It is absurd.
Yep. The amount of market intelligence they're requiring for monthly reports would easily necessitate a team to provide. It wouldn't be surprising for such requirements to turn smaller devs away from cross-play completely.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
59,993
Is this case against Sony?? Lol

Sony real bad here, wasn't the intention to show Apple was the bad guy?
I haven't been keeping up with the trial, but wouldn't this prove that Apple's terms aren't as crazy as another Epic partner--Sony?

Basically helps negate the entire lawsuit.

Again, this is not my lane, just talking as a layman.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,918
When someone like epic does a deal with Microsoft and cuts all the fees and consequently prices for their microtransactions just to fuck over a competitor. Say moving from 30% to 12% short term.

And before people say "well that wouldn't happen" , why wouldn't it happen? Well because agreements are in place...

And before people say "well why do I care?" well consider what happens when Sony is out of business and that 12% goes back to 40% because why not?
Dude that just happened for PC a few days ago. Yes....theoretically MS or someone might be able to Walmart the industry but just think about how much time and money it took to get xbox in a stable third place.

They're not going to convert all the PS/Steam customers on any time frame that could be considered "short term".
 

Nintendo

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,367
Most multiplayer games are no Fortnites or Minecrafts of the world and have rather small playerbases, even on Playstation. The smaller the playerbase, the less eager players are to put up with long matchmaking times etc. which further drives them away from those games, which in turn leads to fewer opportunity for microtransactions on all platforms including Playstation. Sony is putting developers of smaller multiplayer games in a precarious situation, which ultimately hurts Sony's own ecosystem as well.

Not that I'd call it disgusting, but very short-sighted on Sony's part.

You need to understand that this isn't about cross play. Matchmaking has nothing to do with it.
 

LDNStateOfMind

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
515
Sony is asking for a large amount of global and territory by territory data, monthly, which could be a problem for a lot of developers and publishers, especially small ones. All so Sony can keep track of their playerbase and where they are at any given time and if they're spending outside of their ecosystem. It is absurd.

Didn't think the whole thing was that bad but this...yeah it's pretty shit
 

Nintendo

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,367
It forces smaller developers to pay Sony tax if players on other platforms happen to be bigger spenders for whatever historical reasons, or whatever random reason causes spikes in sales on a competing platform.

I'd like to see a breakdown of currently active multiplayer games with and without crossplay.

People still going on about how this is a great business move and so that makes it okay, huh.

This is bad for consumers because cross play is good for consumers and this is another obstacle for getting as many games as possible into cross play. It's that simple.

This isn't about cross play. It only applied to cross platform purchases.