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DanteMenethil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,052
"Meltdowns" is great and neutral language.

Also it's just a rethread of the defenses here. I don't know why it's threadmarked.
"defenses" lol, the article isn't rethreading defenses, it's explaining what the policy is actually about as a lot of people are misinterpreting it (to quote the article " The way this has been framed on social media has been misleading, with many believing that Sony is charging developers to implement crossplay in the first place. ")
 

Deleted member 2791

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,054
But this isn't about that? It's about games where you can make a purchase on one platform and have it accessible on another (like Fortnite)

Why do people keep saying that? That's wrong based on a pretty basic reading of what's in the OP. This isn't about crossplatform purchases. The terminology used here as "cross-platform revenue" is revenue generated across all platforms, on which Sony applies a ratio regarding the revenue generated through PSN and compares it with the gameplay share. If that ratio falls below 85%, meaning that over 15% of the audience Sony considers theirs makes purchases on other platforms, the publishers/developers pay a fee, because Sony considers them (in an extremely bullshit way) reponsible of where their audience spends money.

Unless there are other files that further detail what kind of games/who is subject to these guidelines, what's in OP applies to every cross-play game.
 

Nintendo

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,365
If you have your whales on PC or Switch (so a big chunk of your revenue is there) but a majority of your userbase is in Sony in a cross platform game, Sony wants the money to balance it out. They want their $/h to be at minimum 85% of the average.

That doesn't change the fact that this isn't about cross-play like your original title suggested which is my point.

And this isn't about the userbase. It's gameplay hours. That would offset the gameplay share in favor of the platform with whales, wouldn't it?

They don't want their $/h to be at minimum 85% of the average (whatever you mean by average). The percentage of PSN revenue should be at least 85% of PSN gameplay share. Otherwise, the devs get charged a relatively small fee. The fee doesn't offset Sony's revenue to the point it becomes 85%. Not even close.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,949
This doesn't surprise me at all. If I buy my MTX on a different platform, that platform holder gets the cut.
 

Lube Man

Alt-Account
Banned
Jan 18, 2021
1,247

Orion117

Prophet of Regret - A King's Landing
Member
Dec 8, 2018
3,917
From The Verge article:
Gio Corsi, Sony's senior director of developer relations at the time, dismissed the idea of crossplay, noting that "cross-platform play is not a slam dunk no matter the size of the title" — a clear reference to Epic's flex about Fortnite's dominance on PlayStation. "As you know, many companies are exploring this idea and not a single one can explain how cross-console play improves the PlayStation business," said Corsi.

This Corsi guy is an absolute piece of shit who clearly knows nothing about gaming, let alone enough to be the Director of Developer Relations. This is not the Sony from the late-PS3/early-PS4 days, this is ultra arrogant Sony at its absolute worst. Sorry but get the fuck out of here with that shit, Sony. I am fuming 😤
Its okay, he left Sony in 2019. Gaming is safe now.
 

Deleted member 3196

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,280
Not a great look for Sony. I get the business side of it, but I think Sony should've seen the bigger picture here. When the attach rate was higher on Xbox 360 than PS3, cross-play would've instilled more confidence in their platform among the people buying games on it.

It's not far fetched to think that any of the big 3 could have another early-PS3, Xbox One or Gamecube-level failure where cross-play will be good for their users.

Plus it just makes you look slimy to your customers when it inevitably gets out there.

From The Verge article:
Gio Corsi, Sony's senior director of developer relations at the time, dismissed the idea of crossplay, noting that "cross-platform play is not a slam dunk no matter the size of the title" — a clear reference to Epic's flex about Fortnite's dominance on PlayStation. "As you know, many companies are exploring this idea and not a single one can explain how cross-console play improves the PlayStation business," said Corsi.

This Corsi guy is an absolute piece of shit who clearly knows nothing about gaming, let alone enough to be the Director of Developer Relations. This is not the Sony from the late-PS3/early-PS4 days, this is ultra arrogant Sony at its absolute worst. Sorry but get the fuck out of here with that shit, Sony. I am fuming 😤
Let's not shit on Corsi. He's just doing his job and while he had a lot of responsibility, he didn't set the platform strategy and probably wasn't in a place to make this decision.
 
Last edited:

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,507
It's a sensible precaution from Sony and it's been vindicated by Epic's dealings with Apple and Google where they hotpatched in dialogue to persuade users to buy their v-bucks outside of Apple/Google's ecosystems.
 

Cth

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
1,808
I wonder if this is why Rocket League was changing their model to avoid having to pay fees for adding new player bases when it was given away free on PS+ but having to charge other platforms.

And I wonder how things like PS+/etc play into said percentages?
 

Japanmanx3

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,907
Atlanta, GA
From The Verge article:
Gio Corsi, Sony's senior director of developer relations at the time, dismissed the idea of crossplay, noting that "cross-platform play is not a slam dunk no matter the size of the title" — a clear reference to Epic's flex about Fortnite's dominance on PlayStation. "As you know, many companies are exploring this idea and not a single one can explain how cross-console play improves the PlayStation business," said Corsi.

This Corsi guy is an absolute piece of shit who clearly knows nothing about gaming, let alone enough to be the Director of Developer Relations. This is not the Sony from the late-PS3/early-PS4 days, this is ultra arrogant Sony at its absolute worst. Sorry but get the fuck out of here with that shit, Sony. I am fuming 😤
Saying this about Gio is nuts.
 

Rowsdower

Prophet of Truth - The Wise Ones
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
16,544
Canada
From The Verge article:
Gio Corsi, Sony's senior director of developer relations at the time, dismissed the idea of crossplay, noting that "cross-platform play is not a slam dunk no matter the size of the title" — a clear reference to Epic's flex about Fortnite's dominance on PlayStation. "As you know, many companies are exploring this idea and not a single one can explain how cross-console play improves the PlayStation business," said Corsi.

This Corsi guy is an absolute piece of shit who clearly knows nothing about gaming, let alone enough to be the Director of Developer Relations. This is not the Sony from the late-PS3/early-PS4 days, this is ultra arrogant Sony at its absolute worst. Sorry but get the fuck out of here with that shit, Sony. I am fuming 😤

Corsi's gone, he's no longer at PlayStation. He has done good though; it was his efforts that helped get a lot of niche games to come over west, including the Yakuza series. If it wasn't for him/his department, there would be no Yakuza past the PS3 version of 4.
 

AndyD

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,602
Nashville
If you have your whales on PC or Switch (so a big chunk of your revenue is there) but a majority of your userbase is in Sony in a cross platform game, Sony wants the money to balance it out. They want their $/h to be at minimum 85% of the average.
Not average, in relation to the userbase.
 

Podge293

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,760
This doesn't surprise me at all. If I buy my MTX on a different platform, that platform holder gets the cut.

Why should a third party be entitled to a slice of that revenue tho?

Game is on ps4 and xbox. Has cross play and progression. More xbox users buy mtx stuff than sony but sony wants a cut cuz it just happens to have a bigger fan base.

Also those tryna move the goalposts as a cost to cross play...it's definitely a barrier because devs would have to take into account the likes of the above. If they've budgeted for 3m from mtx revenue that might actually be 3m less whatever cut sony takes if the users just happen to buy on a non sony console

Not to mention they'd have to start sharing revenue data with sony and as we're all well aware information is worth alot to companies
 

Mr_F_Snowman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,877
Fucking disgusting practice.

Imagine if other online stores did this. You browse a product too long on Walmart then buy from amazon? Shit now someone has to pay Walmart some compensation! Watched a trailer for a film on youtube but then then purchased that film from the Apple store? Compensate youtube immediately!

Absolute bullshit move from a company acting like a fucking mafia
 

AntiMacro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,135
Alberta
This doesn't surprise me at all. If I buy my MTX on a different platform, that platform holder gets the cut.
I don't care if a platform has 90% of the userbase - why does that entitle them to a cut of what customers on another platform are willing to spend on that platform?

If people are spending way more money on the Switch version instead, even though there's less of them, then maybe Sony should figure out why THOSE customers are more willing to spend money than the people they have on their platform.
 

giancarlo123x

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,356
Corsi's gone, he's no longer at PlayStation. He has done good though; it was his efforts that helped get a lot of niche games to come over west, including the Yakuza series. If it wasn't for him, there would be no Yakuza past the PS3 version of 4.
Thats him? Dude is forever the MVP then unless some actual slimy shit comes out.
 

Nintendo

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,365
I wonder if this is why Rocket League was changing their model to avoid having to pay fees for adding new player bases when it was given away free on PS+ but having to charge other platforms.

And I wonder how things like PS+/etc play into said percentages?

Rocket League didn't have cross platform purchases until last year (or was it this year?) when Epic acquired it.
 

Lube Man

Alt-Account
Banned
Jan 18, 2021
1,247
User warned: toxic meta-commentary
Fucking disgusting practice.

Imagine if other online stores did this. You browse a product too long on Walmart then buy from amazon? Shit now someone has to pay Walmart some compensation! Watched a trailer for a film on youtube but then then purchased that film from the Apple store? Compensate youtube immediately!

Absolute bullshit move from a company acting like a fucking mafia
Embarassing post. What makes you think others don't have contracts in place?
as the days go on, im ready for Sony to either bow out or get pushed out the gaming market. every month we learn a bit more on how they dont want gamers to unite.
Another embarassing post.
 

jayu26

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,587
From The Verge article:
Gio Corsi, Sony's senior director of developer relations at the time, dismissed the idea of crossplay, noting that "cross-platform play is not a slam dunk no matter the size of the title" — a clear reference to Epic's flex about Fortnite's dominance on PlayStation. "As you know, many companies are exploring this idea and not a single one can explain how cross-console play improves the PlayStation business," said Corsi.

This Corsi guy is an absolute piece of shit who clearly knows nothing about gaming, let alone enough to be the Director of Developer Relations. This is not the Sony from the late-PS3/early-PS4 days, this is ultra arrogant Sony at its absolute worst. Sorry but get the fuck out of here with that shit, Sony. I am fuming 😤
Lol, Gio Corsi was part of late PS3 early PS4 Era. He is partly responsible for Yakuza games coming back to west.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
It's a sensible precaution from Sony and it's been vindicated by Epic's dealings with Apple and Google where they hotpatched in dialogue to persuade users to buy their v-bucks outside of Apple/Google's ecosystems.

I don't think it was done in relation to that. They weren't worried about epic asking people to buy vbucks via epic. This was all about other console stores
 

Lube Man

Alt-Account
Banned
Jan 18, 2021
1,247
Gamers need to rise up against the tyrannical Sony for *checks notes* making sure they make money in cross-platform games.
Fuck Sony for trying to take money from... *checks note* from another billion dollar company.

More hilarious is half the people in this thread thinking this remotely affects them, especially in 2021 when everything is crossplay.

"But in 2018 it did!!!". I'm sure it did.
 

Kalem

Member
May 23, 2019
444
"defenses" lol, the article isn't rethreading defenses, it's explaining what the policy is actually about as a lot of people are misinterpreting it (to quote the article " The way this has been framed on social media has been misleading, with many believing that Sony is charging developers to implement crossplay in the first place. ")
It's an interesting clause, but it makes sense from PlayStation's perspective: if it's providing the majority of the playerbase, then it stands to reason that it would expect a roughly comparative share of the revenue.

Smells like a defense to me
 

Antiax

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,652
This is without a doubt anti-competetive practice which is prohibited under EU law.
 
OP
OP
eonden

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,074
That doesn't change the fact that this isn't about cross-play like your original title suggested which is my point.

And this isn't about the userbase. It's gameplay hours. That would offset the gameplay share in favor of the platform with whales, wouldn't it?

They don't want their $/h to be at minimum 85% of the average (whatever you mean by average). The percentage of PSN revenue should be at least 85% of PSN gameplay share. Otherwise, the devs get charged a relatively small fee. The fee doesn't offset Sony's revenue to the point it becomes 85%. Not even close.
Userbase is gameplay hours. The main difference between whales and most users is not played hours (though they play a bit more) but money spent. And whales spent way more than their share of gameplay hours.

Regarding the Average PSrevenue share / PS gameplay share IS average :
(PSRevenue / Total Revenue) / (PS hours / Totalhours) > 0.85

We can recombine that equation to:
(PS Revenue / PS hours) / (Total Revenue / Total hours) > 0. 85

Which brings:
PS Revenue / PS hours > 0.85 * (Total Revenue / Total hours)

Which means:
PS Average $/h > 0.85 Average $/h.

The fee is set to be the nominal difference paid to Sony so that they get the equivalent of at least 85% of the average. The fee is "less" because while PS revenue then gets charged at 30%, the nominal fee gets charged at 100%.
For instance in the example:
PSN Revenue 600k, Nominal Fee= 52.5k -> Actual money to Sony is 600k*0.3+52.5k = 232.5k. If we raise it to the equivalent of "30% cut" (by dividing for 0.3) -> 775k in revenue... which is very much close to 950k (once you account the 85% -> 911k) they expected due to "gameplay share". Its a tool to ensure they are always at near minimum of 0.85x average $/h

Not average, in relation to the userbase.
Average $/h accounts for userbase. Thats what the "/h" does
 

Zoph

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,512
It sucks but this is very predictable behavior for a market leader -- their rationale is clearly that crossplay incentivizes people to make purchases on different platforms, and that it is more valuable to the brand to discourage crossplay than it is to support it.

Changes to market leader behavior can really only come from insurgent competition, and you can bet this policy will reverse the nanosecond discouraging crossplay starts costing them more money than it preserves in market share.
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,550
I guess we now know what the sony's "beta" phase for crossplay was about, writing those contract.
 
Dec 9, 2018
20,924
New Jersey
Do we know how common the compensation Sony asked for was made for cross-platform games? Looking at it again, it doesn't seem like Sony would tax developers that often if most players are paying and playing on the same platform in the first place.
 

thecaseace

Member
May 1, 2018
3,218
Push Square made a article about it

www.pushsquare.com

Crossplay Controversy Shifts to Sony Being Only Company to Enforce Clause

Interesting clause sheds light on Sony's approach

This article definitely clears up the main intention of the policy but doesn't at all go into any of the negatives.

And the writer framing the responses as being meltdowns says a lot about how they view the discussion. Ultimately they're not adding much.


"defenses" lol, the article isn't rethreading defenses, it's explaining what the policy is actually about as a lot of people are misinterpreting it (to quote the article " The way this has been framed on social media has been misleading, with many believing that Sony is charging developers to implement crossplay in the first place. ")

Whilst the article gives a good explanation of the main reason for Sony doing this it comes across as no more valuable than any other post in this thread.

It's clearly just a response to the perceived 'meltdowns' and comes off defensive as the writer doesn't respond to the obvious negatives surrounding such a policy, fighting games, indie devs, games with a heavy PC component to their player base are all less likely to implement cross play to avoid this.

I'm not saying anything the writer said was wrong but a less reactionary/defensive piece could communicate Sony's need for the policy whilst articulating the negatives experienced by consumers, small developers and some genres of game.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,084
This is why I think it benefits Epic's case. If someone is paying on Xbox but playing on PlayStation, then that is a failure of the PlayStation platform in offering a competitive marketplace. And instead of better engaging consumers, they are using the power of their their walled garden to make up lost revenue. Maybe a different marketplace on PlayStation hardware could better engage consumers, and drive competition for PlayStation's native marketplace, instead of forcing publishers to make up for their shortcomings.

I don't see how in this case EPIC can just make the DLC cheaper on there store and there nothing Sony can do .
In this case the pubs has just as much power as sony does .

EDIT a walled garden is not only hardware .
 

Bootador

Member
Oct 27, 2017
121
I don't really agree with the "contract", but I also don't really give a shit. This is literally a business to business transaction that has no impact on the end users. Are people still misreading the context of this on accident/purpose?
 

nonoriri

Member
Apr 30, 2020
4,229
I don't think it was done in relation to that. They weren't worried about epic asking people to buy vbucks via epic. This was all about other console stores
I think it definitely done in relation to that in terms of, it was likely done for the same reason. The amount of people who can choose between console platforms are fairly slim. But almost everyone has a phone and computer to go buy stuff on the Epic store. Like Apple, Sony knows how easy it would be to undercut them and so they covered their ass.
 

Lube Man

Alt-Account
Banned
Jan 18, 2021
1,247
Careful, you might be called a corporate shill for calling out these crazy ass posts. Lol

I only shill for my wife lol.

Wait... that doesn't sound right.

All jokes aside, I'm very very curious what the developers think, and if any are personally affected by this.
Us speculating here and calling people names isn't the way.
 

RayCharlizard

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,943
But that's what I'm saying, look how far they lagged behind on fortnite, rocketleague, COD (came with a price to the consumer base of the title by having content cut from PC and Xbox), Minecraft, Destiny is finally getting crossplay I'm wondering if it took so long because Bungie didn't want to agree to whatever the info graphic implies.
The info graphic isn't implying anything, it details how Sony wants revenue share to work if you want to offer cross-platform play. And it was the biggest question that people had when all of that hubbub with Fortnite was first going on. Just read the example there, let's say Fortnite is example 2 and 95% of all gameplay time is on PlayStation consoles, but people find it easier to hop into the App Store on their iPhone and buy V-bucks for whatever reason, and they maybe only play Fortnite on that platform on the commute to work. Without this agreement, Apple gets all of the revenue from in-game spending in that situation, even though the majority of gameplay time is on PlayStation. Sony's entire argument when this was all happening was "we have an enormous playerbase, we're not seeing any reason to open that up to other platforms and potentially lose revenue in the process."

You can only speculate on why other games may have taken longer to add cross-play. With Destiny, do you really think it'd have been because of this agreement and not enormous technical hurdles they deal with by running a live service game on an engine with roots in PS3/360 era? Developers have gone on record with how much of a disaster it is working with their toolset, they literally started dumping content out of their game because they can't maintain it all at the same time. COD has been wheeling and dealing in exclusive content for three generations of consoles now. Rocket League had PS4/PC cross-play from launch, as did many other games. Minecraft is owned by Microsoft so there could be any number of more "political" reasons to hold back or delay content and features for that title.

If cross-play is something that benefits the publisher in some way monetarily, which it must because there's no free lunch and they're not paying for the development of new features out of the kindness of their hearts, then it only makes sense that the platform holders should benefit as well. Sony gets a cut of revenue if it's disproprionate otherwise, other platforms get a huge player base boost.
 

Podge293

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,760
I don't really agree with the "contract", but I also don't really give a shit. This is literally a business to business transaction that has no impact on the end users. Are people still misreading the context of this on accident/purpose?

Well it could be the deciding factor in whether a game goes cross play or not so it would impact end users
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,507
I don't think it was done in relation to that. They weren't worried about epic asking people to buy vbucks via epic. This was all about other console stores

1) I didn't say it was done in relation to that, I said that it vindicated their stance.
2) The risk to the platform holders is a scenario where an avenue to buying credit appears that undercuts doing so through their platform. This isn't a meaningful threat in a scenario where Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony all extract a 30% cut as platform holders. Yes, some PlayStation users will buy credit elsewhere, but the reverse will be true also. But they have to protect themselves against being undercut such that a lot of PlayStation users start buying credit elsewhere. We've literally seen Epic using that as a way to encourage people to buy credit directly as opposed to through the Apple Store and Google Play Store. Sony's way of handling that is different to Apple and Google's, but it is the same fundamental issue.
 

Lube Man

Alt-Account
Banned
Jan 18, 2021
1,247
Well it could be the deciding factor in whether a game goes cross play or not so it would impact end users
Have we seen any games that prevented/removed crossplay because of this?

I'll ask you a better curious question: Are there any multiplayer, multiplatform games in 2021 where crossplay is not available?

Genuinely curious why no one has said anything about his in the past (and I'm hoping some developers talk in the present).
 

Jeffram

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,924
I don't care if a platform has 90% of the userbase - why does that entitle them to a cut of what customers on another platform are willing to spend on that platform?

If people are spending way more money on the Switch version instead, even though there's less of them, then maybe Sony should figure out why THOSE customers are more willing to spend money than the people they have on their platform.
I think that's how they came to the 85% target instead of 100% of player time. Also, purchases don't necessarily have to happen on competitor platforms. It's about all avenues for vbucks/skins. If someone buys 1000 bucks online, redeem them for a skin to use exclusively on PS4, they effectively circumvented the PlayStation Store for Playstation content.

Basing the targets for revenue on player engagement seems to be the simplest catch-all to allow purchases from any channel.

We also have no idea if other platforms have similar targets. I can imagine that other platforms do care if you completely circumvent their stores for content on their platform that they would have otherwise made money on. And if it's something they care about, it's in the contract.

As someone who's negotiated parts of multi-million dollar contracts, I can assure you no stone or possibility is left unturned.