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JavelinR

Member
Mar 1, 2018
286
I guarantee if the situations were reversed Microsoft would not be wanting cross play, in fact you could see a bit of that with the 360/ps3 generation. They want it because it benifits them, what both of these companies want is to make money. It's a shame but it's how it is unfortunately,.
This has always been a bad take. The 360 era wasn't anything like the current situation. Sony was simple okay with 3rd parties doing their own cross-play, they never promoted it or made it part of their identity the way Microsoft has now. Also hypothetical role-reversal doesn't address the criticism, it just attempts to deflection it.
 

Razputin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
34
Germany
It's pretty much guaranteed every platform holder has something like this in their contracts, certainly the big players. They need to, otherwise publishers would just put free games on the platform and sell access or content outside on their own stores.

Its usual business, across all industries: If you make money on a platform, the platform holder gets its cut - thats the 15%.
In this case adjusted by playtime share (meaning, only the difference between playtime and revenue applies to the cut. Sounds reasonable).

P.S.: To the people complaining "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THIS!11!": Just trying to explain, why it's not worth the outrage. But if you want to blow some steam on this, you do you.
 

Cenauru

Dragon Girl Supremacy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,949
As far as I can tell, we are now 10 pages with zero actual examples of indie devs cancelling their cross-play development because of this. I understand the hypothetical, but, much like the hypothetical in the actual document, has it ever actually happened?
Ah yes lemme go find the devs who explicitly stated their reason for not having Playstation crossplay was the non-disclosed policy that we weren't even supposed to see.
 

Jeffram

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,924
Yes and if the revenue share is to much for a dev that is not Epic it means it can discourage a dev from allowing cross buy which hurts me as a consumer.
that's fine that you ask the question, but don't make up the answer. That's like me saying "What if the 30% cut on store ABC is too much for a dev to stomach and that ends up hurting the dev and giving me less of a product? I'm now mad about that idea."
 

panda-zebra

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,737
I dunno. Let's say I play fortnite on both my PS4 and my Xbox. But I buy my skins on xbox because that's where I have my payment method set up/secure etc.

Why does Sony need a cut of what I purchased? And that's with a massive title like Fortnite. What about for smaller titles like IDARB? Let's say I buy it on both consoles but only have skins on the Xbox. So then if I play it on the PS4, the devs have to pay Sony a royalty?

Sure it works great for Sony, but I don't really see the benefit it has for me or smaller developers.
You? None. There's absolutely zero benefit for you, I don't think anyone has claimed there should or would be. It shouldn't concern the end user or even be something they'd ever consider. But a benefit you could have is if you could jump on your xbox and pay less for XYZ currency if it's discounted there, but play the game on a PlayStation, and if that were possible of course many people would jump at it and Sony would lose their only revenue for facilitating a F2P game through their platform. Bye-bye 30% cut.

The benefits for devs/publishers too is the much wider access to players to fill their lobbies on all platforms and not having their game fade into obscurity where otherwise it might on a smaller platform, I dunno, I've not considered it much beyond that. Their incentive is to keep everything fair and even between platforms of face losing out to contract clauses like this, so no massive discounts of MTX/currency on one particular platform to upset the balance 'cause it's coming out of their pockets not the pockets of those who made the sale. It's in their own interests to keep it all fair and level.

The whole idea of this setup is to ensure a balance between people playing a (likely F2P game) and spending their money within the same ecosystem. Sony get nothing for people playing F2P games on their system, never have since they introduced true F2P.

So they don't need a cut of your individual purchase. It's not micromanaged that way. If you spend time between two platforms but only spend on one, well you're just a rounding error and nobody carse. But if there's, for some reason, a large imbalance between where people are playing and where they are spending, this seeks to redress that should it go as far out of whack as 85% detriment. So then the dev/pub pays a percentage of that income to the platformholder that facilitated the actual gamplay. And I imagine it's set at 85% and not a 1:1 ratio/100%, as there's other costs to consider such as payment processing and the customer service that goes with the transaction itself etc. these are the sorts of things plenty of people in this thread have either ignored, not considered or just give zero fucks about 'cause they'd rather shout "#4dapayers" and pitchfork mindlessly. But there's nothing new on that front, nothing new there at all.

Should I be outraged about this like some people are and sell my ps5?
It's like football fans burning shirts outside the stadium when a player mentions they might end their career elsewhere for personal/family reasons or whatever. Burn it all to the ground, fuck the world, scorched earth!
 
Nov 11, 2020
223
To the victor, goes the spoils.
Why don't you get outta here, before I shove your quotations book up ya FAT F**KIN' ASS! ;)


Aside from ReggieBC's quote and avatar, there's nothing else good in this thread (regarding the topic, not replies). I've got friends back on Xbox that I haven't played with since 2014, and I'd love to play Rainbow 6 Siege, Red Dead, GTA and Elite: Dangerous with them. I suppose this is the answer as to why these games don't have cross-play, then. :(
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
54,299
Side note:

Anyone else just get an email from PlayStation saying "Let us know how we're doing" 🤣 Aptly timed
 

KAMI-SAMA

Banned
Aug 25, 2020
5,496
This has always been a bad take. The 360 era wasn't anything like the current situation. Sony was simple okay with 3rd parties doing their own cross-play, they never promoted it or made it part of their identity the way Microsoft has now. Also hypothetical role-reversal doesn't address the criticism, it just attempts to deflection it.

So why didn't FF14 come out on Xbox?

Exactly.
 

shadow2810

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,243
The trade-off in this case is a worse user experience in the iOS app because a user can't use the app to sign-up for or renew a premium membership.
I mean sure but at the end of the day you can keep using the service without paying Apple a cent right?
And I believe there is auto renew subscription?
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
8,264
*slams through door* "What did I miss?!"


Omegayikes.

Console makers of all colours gonna be showing their asses with all these docs lol

For the Players™ indeed.

I find this part the most angering:
ijgS9Kl.png


Lance-Reddick-This-is-bullshit.gif

In the end cross play probably didn't improve the PlayStation business. They started supporting it to make people be quiet.
 

nonoriri

Member
Apr 30, 2020
4,237
Because unless Sony has proof that PlayStation users are spending their money on other platforms, it ignores the many valid reasons why people might spend proportionally less money on PlayStation platforms. And punishes the developer for it.
My guess is that most people do not spend money on the same game on other platforms unless the developer incentivizes them to do so. Otherwise, they will just purchase things within their primary ecosystem. I'm sure Epic knows this and is part of the reason they agreed to it. If prices are mostly the same, it's unlikely they'd had have to pay the fine and instead just have tons of new people to make money on.
 

AndyD

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,602
Nashville
For example if the majority of Spotify users on iOS make payment directly to Spotify, will Spotify have to compensate Apple? Because according to some this seems to be standard business contract.
That's a bit different though because Spotify is not a multiplayer experience necessarily. You can listen to your music just fine on iOS, Android or wherever you log into. You are not dependent on other users to make it a good experience. Not to mention you can't do certain things on iOS Spotify app. You have to go outside that ecosystem, which is likely because Apple wants a cut of that fee, and Spotify decided not to allow it or charges more for it (passes that cost onto the customer).
 

Teiresias

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,211
I mean sure but at the end of the day you can keep using the service without paying Apple a cent right?
And I believe there is auto renew subscription?

Yes, just saying that there are secondary affects to similar policies that affect the end-user (in this case needing to go outside the app to manage subscriptions) even if it doesn't become strictly a monetary charge to the developer.
 

CorrisD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
804
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but this doesn't seem to have anything to do with cross-play like the title and most people in here seem to be talking about? And everything to do with the cross-buying of content?

This wouldn't apply to a developer letting PS and Xbox gamers play each other on say Star Wars Squadrons because the bought content isn't transitioning between platforms, just players playing with each other. This would however affect a game like Fortnight where your profile and content follow you regardless of platform.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,134
So Sony basically enforced a kind of revenue parity via fee structure. That's garbage.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,963
Nothing to do with cross-play and it was more MS wanting SE to use MS servers instead of their own. By the time MS changed their mind SE got busy with other stuff but SE said the game is coming to Xbox eventually.
They said it's not planned for Xbox, was around when they announced it's coming to PS5 this year.
 
Dec 21, 2020
5,066
I'll wait for more info before deciding if "outrage" or "no outrage" from this.

From what I understand, if they have the higher install base, let's say x>85% of the game's total player base, but by comparison to other player bases they make x<85% of the revenue, then the devs that signed that contract have to compensate for the lower revenue for that month Because the contract in this case specified 85% but it can be different depending on the one a dev signs?

And that if they aren't 85% of the user base but are say... 43% of the player base and the contract is say...50% of revenue but the PS platform generates 57% of the total revenue then the dev doesn't have to pay Sony as all conditions for paying them have not been met?

But in the chance that they are 80% of the player base but the contract is 60% and the revenue is 62%, the dev doesn't have to pay?

And that those that agree to it have to give data to Sony once every 30 days with respect to the engagement and revenue for their platform?
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,637
From a business perspective, I understand where Sony is coming from. Y'all saw those 2020 numbers. They understand the fight that is coming. Playstation holds down the fort for the company and in their eyes, they gain nothing letting anyone play a game outside of their walled garden.

From a gamer perspective, it's pretty bad.
 

Otakukidd

The cutest v-tuber
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,615
The safety net in this really wouldn't be an issue for popular games. But for indie games or less known games I could see it being an issue.

Having to cover 15%(if it falls bellow 85%)just to use the PS pool may not be worth it in some cases. Because if the game isn't popular on PS, then you risk falling bellow 85%.
If the game isn't popular on playstation it wouldn't be effected by this.
 

Teiresias

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,211
Just gaming it out, if a developer doesn't, for example, put a game on PS at all due to this policy, but puts it on Xbox, Switch, PC and enables crossplay, then conceivably if it gets a large enough audience on those platforms, the dev could then be protected from this provision upon releasing on PS since the audience MAY be smaller.

Of course, if merely releasing the game on PS immediately garners the game a larger audience on PS than it has gotten between the combination of Xbox + Switch + PC, then that tells you something about the market.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
If the game isn't popular on playstation it wouldn't be effected by this.
Right this is only the case if this is a game that is Majority on Sony. Not the other way around lol.
Just gaming it out, if a developer doesn't, for example, put a game on PS at all due to this policy, but puts it on Xbox, Switch, PC and enables crossplay, then conceivably if it gets a large enough audience on those platforms, the dev could then be protected from this provision upon releasing on PS since the audience MAY be smaller.

Of course, if merely releasing the game on PS immediately garners the game a larger audience on PS than it has gotten between the combination of Xbox + Switch + PC, then that tells you something about the market.
Right. They could Just build up a player base on the other systems and then launch on sony after if the fee is that much of an impedance but all of this based on sony being the largest platform and also i'm sure there are ways to re-negotiate and this isnt just their policy.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,819
Having it so clearly confirmed is news, certainly, but it's a bit baffling how surprised some people seem by this.
Sony isn't your friend. Nor is any other gaming company, be the a platform owner, publisher or developer. They are as scummy, as greedy, as cutthroat, as any private corporation is. "For the players" is a marketing slogan, not some ideological belief that Sony is claiming to live by.
 

PandemicOdin

Member
Oct 31, 2020
249
In the end cross play probably didn't improve the PlayStation business. They started supporting it to make people be quiet.
Yup, they literally could've said no cross play and everything that had Fortnite would HAVE to buy a PS5 just to keep their account and skins and been in the ecosystem for another console cycle guaranteed, eventually it just becomes perpetual because another game shows up, then another, then another...

As far as the revenue sharing, I find it even more interesting that everyone is complaining about Indies or something not having cross-play but the revenue sharing is based on time played. So these are most likely FTP games, instead of some indie or other game that you bought twice on multiple platforms. Also nothing has come out of the documents saying that this has even been an issue as of yet. People would have to on mass, own another platform at which they are spending micro transactions. The only platform that I think would even cause an issue would be Sony vs Android/Apple. Log into FN, buy a skin. Play later on console.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,126
Every one of these threads is the same.

"This company is not your friend"
"Can't believe there are corporate stans willing to defend this"

Repeat x100

with next to no actual meaningful or insightful discussion.
 

KAMI-SAMA

Banned
Aug 25, 2020
5,496
Nothing to do with cross-play and it was more MS wanting SE to use MS servers instead of their own. By the time MS changed their mind SE got busy with other stuff but SE said the game is coming to Xbox eventually.

I like how smug and dismissive this reply is all while ignoring what I said.

Really? Ok. It was still MS wanting a company to do something under their conditions which was their closed garden called Xbox Live. MS had their own conditions. Sony has their own.
 

RayCharlizard

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,950
Y'all remember a couple weeks ago when everyone freaked out because of a leaked marketing deal with Resident Evil Village that turned out to be like every other marketing deal ever but no one here actually knows what they're talking about and it was just a good reason to shit on Sony for a week?

Yeah, me neither.
 

thecaseace

Member
May 1, 2018
3,218
My biggest problem with this policy is that it implies the reason why someone would buy content elsewhere but play on PlayStation is always the fault of the developer.


Given Sony's track record with respect to user data and the fact a lot of people on Era choose to not store their card on PSN it doesn't make sense to me to penalise a developer if consumers trust Sony's platform less than the competition for example.

It'll take a reasonable number of people to shift those proportions but Sony could effectively get MTX money from Epic if Sony payment processing went down one day and people bought their Fortnite gear on Xbox instead. Doesn't seem fair to me.
 

Garrett 2U

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,511
I can't get over the fact that Epic was forced to stoop to the levels of "making Sony look like heroes" in order to implement a pro-consumer feature.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,105
It's pretty much guaranteed every platform holder has something like this in their contracts, certainly the big players. They need to, otherwise publishers would just put free games on the platform and sell access or content outside on their own stores.

Its usual business, across all industries: If you make money on a platform, the platform holder gets its cut - thats the 15%.
In this case adjusted by playtime share (meaning, only the difference between playtime and revenue applies to the cut. Sounds reasonable).

P.S.: To the people complaining "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THIS!11!": Just trying to explain, why it's not worth the outrage. But if you want to blow some steam on this, you do you.

Yep a business will be a business and protect there interest .
It funny how people would think other wise and that goes even for the smallest of devs to all the way up to the big boys .
 

Ombala

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,241
Y'all remember a couple weeks ago when everyone freaked out because of a leaked marketing deal with Resident Evil Village that turned out to be like every other marketing deal ever but no one here actually knows what they're talking about and it was just a good reason to shit on Sony for a week?

Yeah, me neither.
Are you saying this is the same thing, wow who could have believed. :)
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
Y'all remember a couple weeks ago when everyone freaked out because of a leaked marketing deal with Resident Evil Village that turned out to be like every other marketing deal ever but no one here actually knows what they're talking about and it was just a good reason to shit on Sony for a week?

Yeah, me neither.
Is it though?
Considering they were the hold out for so many games I find it unlikely this is just another nothing burger.
 
Jun 23, 2019
6,446
Every one of these threads is the same.

"This company is not your friend"
"Can't believe there are corporate stans willing to defend this"

Repeat x100

with next to no actual meaningful or insightful discussion.

It's like clockwork at this point. 11 pages of people running in to dunk on Sony and post witty one liners, but it took people actually reading into the documentation to read between the lines. Irony.