Epic Games Store Discussion

SweetNicole · Dec 13, 2018

SweetNicole said:
https://www.engadget.com/2018/12/13/epic-games-store-steam-competition/

This article has quotes from Team Meat cofounder, Tommy Refenes.

I think this article avoids some of the more common criticisms of the Epic Games Store that has been leveled so far. There's no discussion on the nature of refunds. There isn't any discussion of exclusivity deals really beyond this one line:

The Epic Games store can't cannibalize Steam with a few exclusives, and Steam can't stop Epic from snagging new games by offering a better revenue share.

It seems mostly focused on the ideal that having another company in the market like Epic creates competition and pushes them each to better. I suppose the inherit takeaway from the article that they want to leave you with is that Epic and Steam competing is good for developers and consumers. I'm not sure the article effectively establishes that conclusion though.

spineduke · Dec 13, 2018

SweetNicole said:
https://www.engadget.com/2018/12/13/epic-games-store-steam-competition/

This article has quotes from Team Meat cofounder, Tommy Refenes.

It's already working -- in an announcement suspiciously timed to go live three days before Epic revealed its store, Steam rolled out a new revenue-sharing program, though it only benefits the top tier of game creators. If a game makes more than $10 million, developers get to take home 75 percent of future revenue. Bring in over $50 million, and developers get 80 percent of subsequent earnings.

I mean, Valves move wasn't a response to the launch of Epics store, but rather to address the flight of bigger publishers. We haven't seen any efforts from Valve yet. My guess is, they're in wait and see mode - Epics store doesn't really solve anything for the majority of game developers. A platform that is highly unavailable but to a select few makes for a great "premium indie" store, but that's not whos really hurting in this whole story. There's going to be a brief honeymoon period before the real questions start getting answered - who's getting on, what's the roadmap for this store, and what is the actual vision they have in mind for developers and customers.

Deleted member 30077 · Dec 13, 2018

SweetNicole said:
I think this article avoids some of the more common criticisms of the Epic Games Store that has been leveled so far. There's no discussion on the nature of refunds. There isn't any discussion of exclusivity deals really beyond this one line:

It seems mostly focused on the ideal that having another company in the market like Epic creates competition and pushes them each to better. I suppose the inherit takeaway from the article that they want to leave you with is that Epic and Steam competing is good for developers and consumers. I'm not sure the article effectively establishes that conclusion though.

Honestly, it reads like a puff piece for the EPIC Games Store. The conclusion is basically "competition is good".

Competition is good, but the PC market has no competition. There is only Steam," Refenes said.

How does Steam not have competition? They allow you to sell your keys wherever you want, unlike the EPIC store. I'd say sites like G2A are a much bigger competitor to Steam than the EPIC store will ever be, despite G2A mainly selling Steam keys.

I mean I use Steam daily for games and I haven't bought a game on the Steam store in ages...

Deleted member 1759 · Dec 13, 2018

SweetNicole said:
I suppose the inherit takeaway from the article that they want to leave you with is that Epic and Steam competing is good for developers and consumers. I'm not sure the article effectively establishes that conclusion though.

Yep. The article tells me that it's good for developers and content creators (youtubers/streamers) but it doesn't mention any benefits that the Epic Store has for those who actually pay for the games, the consumers.

The article doesn't cover any of the criticism that people had with Epic's approach to exclusivity and the lacking features. And the dev quotes are generic PR speak.

Kyougar · Dec 13, 2018

c0Zm1c said:
There's nothing wise about not having message boards, I don't know how you could come to that conclusion. The Steam forums can be very toxic but doing communication through email stifles any community discussion and the sharing of information between users which is not a positive for anyone. It's especially important for early access games.

Working in tech support for 9 years... I pity the people who have to answer the hundredth question about issue xyz.

but let's be real.
- at best: they copy paste pre-worded answers to customer
- at worst: they slap the customer with a 10 page FAQ on shit the customer has to do before he should dare to open another ticket.
- at worstestetstes: every ticket lands in the recycling bin.

Edit: and what happens after 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? is this little indie developer still answering tickets for the game? Telling their customers of fixes or other information that could have been stickied since the beginning on a Forum?

Hace · Dec 13, 2018

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/c...ore_doesnt_want_to_give_me_my_money/?sort=top

Epic Games store doesn't want to give me my money back for my refund request on a game call Ashen.
After waiting for them to respond to my request for 3-4 days, all I got is "your purchase is not eligible for refund." Even tho they said on their website that "You may request a refund for a game purchased on the Epic Games store, at any time, for any reason."

oof.

The guy ends up getting his case reassigned and a full refund, but only after that post blows up on the subreddit.

Deleted member 1849 · Dec 13, 2018

That was actually posted on the previous page too, but god I hate the wording in that email. The really personal "I am sure that by the end of the day you'll love it!" just rubs me the wrong way.

The line directly after that is worrying though now I think about it. "We are only able to refund purchases that we unauthorized". It doesn't seem to make sense unless there's some typing mistake. Do they mean "were"? Then that means they only claim to be able to give refunds on unauthorized purchases, which is even worse than the awful policy that was advertised.

Gabbo · Dec 13, 2018

Yeah that refund email looks like it was written by a forum troll who's taking the piss out of the whole thing.

Screen Looker · Dec 13, 2018

spineduke said:
I mean, Valves move wasn't a response to the launch of Epics store, but rather to address the flight of bigger publishers. We haven't seen any efforts from Valve yet. My guess is, they're in wait and see mode - Epics store doesn't really solve anything for the majority of game developers. A platform that is highly unavailable but to a select few makes for a great "premium indie" store, but that's not whos really hurting in this whole story. There's going to be a brief honeymoon period before the real questions start getting answered - who's getting on, what's the roadmap for this store, and what is the actual vision they have in mind for developers and customers.

So they've already mentioned that they're rolling out a cross-platform service separate from the store which will include the ability create achievements and other things people complained about.

It's almost been a week. It takes time to develop a publicly available roadmap.

svacina · Dec 13, 2018

Screen Looker said:
It's almost been a week. It takes time to develop a publicly available roadmap.

Why are we treating this like they started working on the store a week ago?

Madjoki · Dec 13, 2018

svacina said:
Why are we treating this like they started working on the store a week ago?

Especially since we know this from announcement:

"For the past five years, we've been building tools enabling Epic to bring our games directly to players. "

So yeah they've had all the time.

Gabbo · Dec 13, 2018

Madjoki said:
Especially since we know this from announcement:

"For the past five years, we've been building tools enabling Epic to bring our games directly to players. "

So yeah they've had all the time.

The key word being 'our' (eg Epic's) games. They've basically been spinning their wheels at the same place Steam was in ... maybe 2005-6 by this point and just started to expand it out. That does take further time to implement than just using it for their own internal stuff. That said, the public reveal seems like it was hastened by Valve recent share change announcement, like it wasn't meant to go live but they were forced to or felt forced to. Not an excuse, but they probably only recently started looking into making it useful for 3rd parties and the infrastructure for that.

svacina · Dec 13, 2018

Gabbo said:
The key word being 'our' (eg Epic's) games. They've basically been spinning their wheels at the same place Steam was in ... maybe 2005-6 by this point and just started to expand it out. That does take further time to implement than just using it for their own internal stuff. That said, the public reveal seems like it was hastened by Valve recent share change announcement, like it wasn't meant to go live but they were forced to or felt forced to. Not an excuse, but they probably only recently started looking into making it useful for 3rd parties and the infrastructure for that.

Kinda doubt that, considering the push at Dorito Pope's Advertising Extragavanza Show.

spineduke · Dec 13, 2018

Screen Looker said:
So they've already mentioned that they're rolling out a cross-platform service separate from the store which will include the ability create achievements and other things people complained about.

It's almost been a week. It takes time to develop a publicly available roadmap.

cross platform service sounds great in theory, but that doesn't address the whole curation/accessibility of the store though which is what i was talking about.

Screen Looker · Dec 13, 2018

Kyougar said:
Working in tech support for 9 years... I pity the people who have to answer the hundredth question about issue xyz.

but let's be real.
- at best: they copy paste pre-worded answers to customer
- at worst: they slap the customer with a 10 page FAQ on shit the customer has to do before he should dare to open another ticket.
- at worstestetstes: every ticket lands in the recycling bin.

Edit: and what happens after 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? is this little indie developer still answering tickets for the game? Telling their customers of fixes or other information that could have been stickied since the beginning on a Forum?

I can promise you, the existence of a forum isn't shortening the number of hours developers or tech support are working.

And a stickied forum post is quite literally the same thing as a FAQ or Solutions page. Lol.

JarrodL said:
That's just not true. There have been multiple cases throughout the years I've been playing on PC when I was able to quickly find a fix/temporary solution on steam discussion forum for an in-game issue for which there was no official solution yet (a developer was either not aware of it, or it was reported and acknowledged but no solution was provided in time, or at all).

If the issue is "development communication" then the issue is developers are not communicating regardless of a forum existence. That was my point.

Bad support from a developer isn't "solved" by a community forum on Steam. It's a workaround. I promise you that doesn't cease to exist if a game isn't on Steam or GoG.

Screen Looker · Dec 13, 2018

spineduke said:
cross platform service sounds great in theory, but that doesn't address the whole curation/accessibility of the store though which is what i was talking about.

My point wasn't that it was the answer to your question. It's just an example of a public roadmap and a statement it will take time to make another for EGS customers.

Screen Looker · Dec 13, 2018

svacina said:
Why are we treating this like they started working on the store a week ago?

I'm treating it like they launched the store last week.

svacina · Dec 13, 2018

Screen Looker said:
I'm treating it like they launched the store last week.

But that does not mean anything.

Gabbo · Dec 13, 2018

svacina said:
Kinda doubt that, considering the push at Dorito Pope's Advertising Extragavanza Show.

I dont mean they literally started working on it last week, just not long enough to have certain [we consider] baseline things worked out

Derrick01 · Dec 13, 2018

The "it takes time to build a store" is one of many of the same excuses we hear for every store going back to Origin (which ironically was rebranded from EA's download manager which existed almost since the time steam was created). It never ends up amounting to anything as the years go by. Origin now, 7 years later, isn't that much different from the Origin of 2011 and in fact most say it runs worse now than it did.

dex3108 · Dec 13, 2018

I am still waiting for any journalist to ask Epic or developers to specifically show what benefits customers have by choosing Epic store. That is only question I want to see answered. And by answered I don't want to see "competition is good for you".

BernardoOne · Dec 13, 2018

Screen Looker said:
I'm treating it like they launched the store last week.

and yet they didn't even manage to match Itch.io, a indie store that barely makes money.

Kyougar · Dec 13, 2018

smh...
Only in the games industry should we expect to always start at 0.

Tesla would have been a laughing stock if they started their first automobile with the technology of the Model T. "Ford also needed 100 years until they were at this point!"

Alexandros · Dec 13, 2018

dex3108 said:
I am still waiting for any journalist to ask Epic or developers to specifically show what benefits customers have by choosing Epic store. That is only question I want to see answered. And by answered I don't want to see "competition is good for you".

I'd also like to know what is the huge issue with PC gaming that necessitates the existence of this kind of 'competition'.

Kyougar · Dec 13, 2018

Alexandros said:
I'd also like to know what is the huge issue with PC gaming that necessitates the existence of this kind of 'competition'.

Too many struggling premium Indie developer who sell Millions on Steam, apparently.

yyr · Dec 13, 2018

Echo1 said:
The quote doesn't appear to be addressing anything I actually said. Valve isn't running TV ads for you. Valve isn't bundling your game with hardware in exchange for real money, money you get. Valve isn't lowering the barrier of entry (hardware cost) to playing your game. So, no, they aren't 'earning their cut' the way console platform holders do.

I'll reiterate what I said in another thread:

I'm a one-man indie dev who just released their second title on Steam. Would I like to get more than 70% of the revenue? Sure. But for that 18% difference:
1) My games support integrated leaderboards--a critical feature in score-attack games like mine--and I don't have to run any servers.
2) My games support Xbox One/360, DualShock4, Switch Pro, and Steam Controllers, without me having to do anything.
3) My games have a set of Achievements.
4) My games support cloud saving.
5) My games can't be copied/pirated willy-nilly, because they can detect whether they're running through the Steam client, and they quit if they're not.
6) Steam Support has gotten back to me very quickly when I've encountered any issues, and they've been very thorough when reviewing my builds.

The price difference is justified imo. My customers get more and I get more.

If Epic offers comparable service in the future, that'd be awesome. I hope they do. But if not, then dollars aren't everything.

spineduke · Dec 13, 2018

Screen Looker said:
My point wasn't that it was the answer to your question. It's just an example of a public roadmap and a statement it will take time to make another for EGS customers.

Sure, they can take all the time they want - my point is when they spell it out for everyone, a lot of people are going to be excluded in this conversation. They've already hinted as much. Maybe you don't care about that, but the framing of the conversation as "this is good for devs" is misleading.

Screen Looker · Dec 13, 2018

spineduke said:
Sure, they can take all the time they want - my point is when they spell it out for everyone, a lot of people are going to be excluded in this conversation. They've already hinted as much. Maybe you don't care about that, but the framing of the conversation as "this is good for devs" is misleading.

I have placed multiple critiques of Epic's approach here based on you all's feedback that I would give as an alternative.

The only difference between others and myself is that I am proposing things that would replace the items they currently do not have as a compromise and many here are refusing outright to ever support the store on just forums not being there.

There's like 12 games currently announced for between now and next year. Excuse me for not throwing my towel in the avenue of "this is the worst and PC Gaming is retracting 18 years" camp before they even actually open the store beyond its current boutique status.

Screen Looker · Dec 13, 2018

BernardoOne said:
and yet they didn't even manage to match Itch.io, a indie store that barely makes money.

Did you read abou what happened to Itch.io? He opened the store and got some feedback and then he changed directions on the store and his approach to it.

Funny how that can happen after you launch something.

BernardoOne · Dec 13, 2018

Screen Looker said:
Did you read abou what happened to Itch.io? He opened the store and got some feedback and then he changed directions on the store and his approach to it.

Funny how that can happen after you launch something.

And yet, Epic couldn't match what Itch.io offered at launch (did you...not read what i just said or something?)

Screen Looker · Dec 13, 2018

svacina said:
But that does not mean anything.

It absolutely does and you all need to stop acting... lol

It's incredie to see people in this forum complaining about the Epic Games Store not providing a store forum on day one as if this forum itself hasn't undergone NUMEROUS changes since its launch. Lol

Deleted member 42 · Dec 13, 2018

Screen Looker said:
It absolutely does and you all need to stop acting... lol

It's incredie to see people in this forum complaining about the Epic Games Store not providing a store forum on day one as if this forum itself hasn't undergone NUMEROUS changes since its launch. Lol

I have no idea what you mean this forum has been LOCK STOCKED PERFECT and anyone that says otherwise gets a visit from Christmas Gritty

Armaros · Dec 13, 2018

Screen Looker said:
It absolutely does and you all need to stop acting... lol

It's incredie to see people in this forum complaining about the Epic Games Store not providing a store forum on day one as if this forum itself hasn't undergone NUMEROUS changes since its launch. Lol

This forum isn't selling a product or paying anyone for specific content.

I dont even know what you were attempting with that comparison.

wig split · Dec 13, 2018

Be interested to see where it stands once the Fortnite money river runs dry.

Screen Looker · Dec 13, 2018

BernardoOne said:
And yet, Epic couldn't match what Itch.io offered at launch (did you...not read what i just said or something?)

Did you miss the part where I said the issue was they launched last week.

There's an entire interview with the guy at Itch.io about how he had to change his entire approach to the store once it started taking off. What they have today? Took time and changed based on feedback. It didn't launch with even the approach they have today.

But he didn't wait to launch. He had an idea and a concept, he launched the store and it grew from there to something else entirely.

Magic to you I know, but most products don't launch with anything more than a concept and then they go on from there to get better based on where they are things forming. Quite literally, the store is in an early access version of itself and you all are acting as if that's impossible to comprehend lol

Deleted member 42 · Dec 13, 2018

wig split said:
Be interested to see where it stands once the Fortnite money river runs dry.

They're probably a year or two out from that truly dropping down, they got a while

spineduke · Dec 13, 2018

Screen Looker said:
I have placed multiple critiques of Epic's approach here based on you all's feedback that I would give as an alternative.

The only difference between others and myself is that I am proposing things that would replace the items they currently do not have as a compromise and many here are refusing outright to ever support the store on just forums not being there.

There's like 12 games currently announced for between now and next year. Excuse me for not throwing my towel in the avenue of "this is the worst and PC Gaming is retracting 18 years" camp before they even actually open the store beyond its current boutique status.

i dont subscribe to the hyperbole, but the store is halfbaked - and all it has to show for it is a mission statement and some exclusives. People are trying to point beyond the media articles typical cycle of hype and point out the very obvious - why would anyone buy their games on this store? They haven't delivered on anything. Maybe 2019 is a different story. We'll see.

BernardoOne · Dec 13, 2018

Screen Looker said:
Did you miss the part where I said the issue was they launched last week.

There's an entire interview with the guy at Itch.io about how he had to change his entire approach to the store once it started taking off. What they have today? Took time and changed based on feedback. It didn't launch with even the approach they have today.

But he didn't wait to launch. He had an idea and a concept, he launched the store and it grew from there to something else entirely.

Magic to you I know, but most products don't launch with anything more than a concept and then they go on from there to get better based on where they are things forming. Quite literally, the store is in an early access version of itself and you all are acting as if that's impossible to comprehend lol

Again it seems you haven't read, somehow, again. Itch.io , on its launch week, without the 5 years Epic had, was better than this.

texhnolyze · Dec 13, 2018

wig split said:
Be interested to see where it stands once the Fortnite money river runs dry.

They'd just probably go back to consoles and abandon PC, just like they did some years ago.

Screen Looker · Dec 13, 2018

Armaros said:
This forum isn't selling a product or paying anyone for specific content.

I dont even know what you were attempting with that comparison.

The idea that the store is NEVER going to add a single feature and can't be forgiven for launching with 10 games, a few non-Fortnite users, and every feature you all have decided is essential in PC Gaming is stupid and I'm not going to sit up here and act like it's not normal for evergreen products to launch feature bare with a concept and then roll out from there just because some of you want to act like the iPhone of 2007 was anything more than an iPod Touch that took calls on one cell phone network and did it worse than established flip phones and the iPod.

Screen Looker · Dec 13, 2018

BernardoOne said:
Again it seems you haven't read, somehow, again. Itch.io , on its launch week, without the 5 years Epic had, was better than this.

My apologies, I didn't see the list breakdown for Itch.io's launch. I read an interview with the guy about how his storefront would work and idea changed over time from the decentralized way he approached it to a centralized one.

That's what I was referring to. Could you tell me what you're referring to since you're alluding to something, but I'm not getting it.

Screen Looker · Dec 13, 2018

spineduke said:
i dont subscribe to the hyperbole, but the store is halfbaked - and all it has to show for it is a mission statement and some exclusives. People are trying to point beyond the media articles typical cycle of hype and point out the very obvious - why would anyone buy their games on this store? They haven't delivered on anything. Maybe 2019 is a different story. We'll see.

Right. Are we talking about a store that promised you it would be everything you needed on date one? No.

We can debate the logistics of the exclusive as a brand move, we can talk about whether not having forums is a good idea, but this obstinate stance about the fact the store, which isn't even fully open for business with developers, is not what it should be is like "ok? Don't buy the thing that's there."

Pixieking · Dec 13, 2018

Screen Looker said:
The idea that the store is NEVER going to add a single feature and can't be forgiven for launching with 10 games, a few non-Fortnite users, and every feature you all have decided is essential in PC Gaming is stupid and I'm not going to sit up here and act like it's not normal for evergreen products to launch feature bare with a concept and then roll out from there just because some of you want to act like the iPhone of 2007 was anything more than an iPod Touch that took calls on one cell phone network and did it worse than established flip phones and the iPod.

Because we have expectations, and those expectations - at least for me, personally - are dramatically altered by the exclusives that Epic store has. If a store forces me (on the assumption I want the game) to go to it, then tells me "Nah, sorry, coming next week/month/year" for everything that the store next door has done for years (literally, in some cases), then I am going to be frustrated.

If there were no exclusives, I wouldn't care. "Oh, look, another PC digital distro store. Huh. Not much there, I'll buy from Steam unless I really want to support the developer with that extra cut". But once you make yourself the only game in town for an item, customers are going to want more, otherwise they'll feel like you're strong-arming them into shopping with you. Which Epic are. Want Satisfactory? Guess you'll have to do without Cloud Saves, a feature that Steam had 10 years ago. Sucks to be you, huh? Me, I'll just wait and/or buy something else with my money.

Deleted member 42 · Dec 13, 2018

I'd be very surprised if this store was being worked on for a year much less five.

svacina · Dec 13, 2018

BronsonLee said:
I'd be very surprised if this store was being worked on for a year much less five.

Well, obviously.

That's kinda the problem though, isn't it.

Athena · Dec 13, 2018

I'm a pretty big fan of the increased cut for devs, and the idea that the Steam storefront may end up getting competition.

I think it definitely has a future; especially being the platform that Fortnite (and its exceptionally large young audience) is on .. As it stands now, though, the store needs a lot of work and improvements for it to really become a competitor - or encourage Valve to make any improvements to their own service.

Catshade · Dec 13, 2018

Something funny just crossed my mind. If only Epic slapped "BETA" across their store like GOG did when it launched in 2008-2009, I'm pretty sure the criticism wouldn't be this severe. "But the store doesn't have a cloud save in 2018!" "Well, it's still in beta..."

Lackless · Dec 13, 2018

catshade said:
Something funny just crossed my mind. If only Epic slapped "BETA" across their store like GOG did when it launched in 2008-2009, I'm pretty sure the criticism wouldn't be this severe. "But the store doesn't have a cloud save in 2018!" "Well, it's still in beta..."

Honestly, I respect Epic more for not going that route. "Beta" is a cop-out these days. Own what you got and stop making excuses.

BasilZero · Dec 13, 2018

Is Fortnite really bigger than LoL?

signal · Dec 13, 2018

Was this posted
https://www.pcgamer.com/epic-store-exclusives-are-worth-the-pressure-they-put-on-steam/

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