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bbq of doom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,606
I've noticed a ton of conversation over the past week regarding Epic and Steam and I wanted to chime in with what I understand about the Epic Games Store platform.

While I first gamed on PC back in the early/mid 90s, I only recently became a "PC gamer" this summer when I built my first computer. I had a Steam account previously (mainly for games to play on my Mac, including an 89-hour misadventure into EVE Online) but I never really "used" Steam as many folks here had used it. For me, stores and launchers were merely vehicles to access games. Fast forward a few months and with PC as my main platform, I now have a newfound appreciation for social features, game overlays, quick and expeditious refunds, choice, and, above all else, Steam sales.

Enter Epic. Last week, Epic debuted its Games Store along with a variety of interesting features that positioned it as a possibly legitimate competitor to Steam.

So, what is Epic Games Store? What's offered?
  • Manually-curated selection of games (presently small and focused on Epic's own offerings and assorted indie games)
  • Games Store exclusives (at least for a limited period of time)
  • Free games (one game every 2 weeks through 2019)
  • 88% / 12% revenue split between the developer and itself
  • Financial incentives for developers to use Unreal Engine
  • 2 "no questions asked" refunds when you start your account (for purchases no more than 14 days old, with the chance to get an extra refund annually but no more than 2 refunds total per year)
  • Developer access to Fortnite's cross platform tools (unclear as to whether this is exclusive to the Games Store)
  • Fortnite, currently the biggest game on the planet

Epic Games Store is not:
  • Steam with Steam features
  • Offering an automated refund system (at least not yet)
  • A large selection of varied games spanning AAA, AA, and independent
  • A "mature" platform
  • A large userbase (aside from Fortnite itself)
  • An established community
  • Much more than a storefront and a Fortnite launcher
Based on my view, it appears that Epic Games Store is positioned as a more developer-focused storefront than Steam, which seems more consumer/end-user focused. But what does Epic's focus mean in the short term? The long term? Can it compete with Steam now, in Steam's current form? How about, later, whenever (if ever?) Valve changes Steam to address the newfound competition?

Mod Edit: Re-adding this post to the OP as this previous thread was also generating good discussion as a starting point:
Following the announcement of Epic Games Store, we saw many reactions on ResetEra. People happy for reasons, a lot of people not happy for other reasons and between them a lot of people who are genuinely puzzled about why some people seems unhappy, since normally, competition should be welcomed.

Sure, there was a lot of discussions going around that in multiple threads which makes it difficult to follow anything and this is why I wanted to make a synthetical post about that announcement, the current landscape around PC, the reactions and the consequences.

Epic Games Store and their policies:

First of all, I think I should explain the reason this discussion happens in the same place. A few days ago, Epic Games, developer of Fortnite, announced that their storefront would be open to 3rd parties and compete with Steam. For now, everything sounds good so far. A new actor is coming and promise to bring some competition on the table, which should make the market better, right ?


On top of that, they also announced something positive for developers: A new revenue cut, that would be 88% of the money for the devs/publishers and 12% for the storefront, as opposed to the usual 30% for the store and 70% for the devs that Steam (but also PSN, GOG, XBL, eShop, Google, Apple) takes.

Epic Games announced not only they'd rely on their own storefront and their own client, but that they would pay developpers to release their games exclusively on their storefront. We're not talking about new projects that Epic decided to take in and throw a bag of money to make possible but high profile releases (Ashen, Maneater, Satisfactory), published by mid tier publishers (Annapurna, THQ, Tripwire), from either renown IPs (Super Meat Boy) or renown developers (Super Giant Games).




But also announced that, at launch, their client wouldn't feature basic features such as cloud saves, achievements and such. While this will improve in the future, they also claimed they don't aim to match Steam in term of features. About their other policies, on top of paid exclusivity, region pricing has yet to be implemented in a lot of regions while their refund policy seems pathetic since they claim to grant only two no-question automatic refunds for the lifetime of your account + an additionnal one every year. Their storefront doesn't even feature a search function and their storepages doesn't even mention basic informations such as the kind of game, the single player or multiplayer fonctions.

Back on features, not only Epic announced their store would be curated, but they also claimed that they would provide no game community features (such as forums and guides) and reviews would be opt-in. Basically, a storefront with a pro-developer approach (or does it ? but I'll tackle that later) but one that seems to be less focused on customers and users. But why is there people against it ? After all, everyone should be for developers getting more money. And competition is supposed to move the market forward, giving more choice to customers ? Well... it's more complicated than that unfortunately, which allows me to tackle the next point about the "No steam no buy" mentality

"No Steam, no buy", the idea behind it:

Following the announcement of the store, The Game Awards were hosted in which the Epic Games Store made its show announcing that multiple high profile indie release would be released exclusively on their store, despite having been announced on Steam before, even having Steam store pages, the first being Ashen which released on the same day, which means there's no way Epic funded the game in any way to make it happen. Shortly, we learned that all these exclusive games would launch for a 12 month exclusive period.

After that, multiple voices raised on ResetEra but also on multiple websites and communities, claiming that they wouldn't buy these games unless they release on Steam. The first logical reaction to have to these complains was to claim "Well, it's just another launcher" "It's literally one click away" "It's the same game" or "There are really launcher fanboys ?". These are legitimate and logical reactions indeed when you don't really know about that market, when you played recently or never on PC.

First of all, I want to discard the idea that it's all about "brand loyalty" or "fanboyism". In the past 5 years, Steam evolved from being a storefront to a feature complete launcher and ecosystem. What does it mean ? Well, after these years, a number of important features were released that made users' experience not only more convenient, but also a lot better.

- First of all, a controller based, TV focused interface was released with Big Picture Mode.
- A no question, automatic refund system.
- A library sharing system.
- A vendor agnostic VR API, which ensures games purchased on Steam aren't locked to the Vive HMD but also working with Oculus Rift and Windows Mixed Reality HMDs.
- A free OS which led to Steam Proton, an automatic tool to play your Windows games on Linux.
- A community based mod sharing system, which allows to share and install content with one click.
- A streaming feature to stream your PC games to your TV, your mobile or your lower end laptop.
- A cloud based save system.
- A system wide, vendor agnostic controller API was made with Steam Input, which not only support Steam Controller, Xbox One controller, Dualshock 4 and Switch Pro Controller but also support all their different inputs such as touchpads and gyrosensor, to remap extensively (and I insist on that, there's no tools like it anywhere else in term of possibilities and fonctionnalities) but also allowing to download community based controller mapping.


Speaking of communities, multiple things were introduced such as the community guides, which allows you to access community made guides for games, screenshot sharing, forums which, even though a big part of the community is toxic, are often helpful when you're looking to resolve an issue, since someone might have already asked and found an answer which means less work for devs in term of ticket support, reviews on the storepage which, even though can be abused by toxic people, are also a mean to pressure bigger publishers such as Warner Bros with their Arkham Knight port, Bethesda with their paid mods attempt, Square-Enix with their Chrono Trigger port. And while toxicity definitely should be adressed, Epic way seems to be definitively worse since it's basically letting devs handle it on Reddit or Discord (which on top of that, in the case of multiplatform games, will cover 3 to 4 platforms).

While some of you might say "who cares about these features ?" well... that's your opinion and that's fine. But not only some of them are just too convenient to pass on them, others are either great for consumers as a whole or even benefit PC gaming as a whole (VR, Input, Proton). So when someone claims that they won't get a game if it releases somewhere else exclusively, don't think of it as a form of tribalism or brand loyalty but more as of a loss for them of important features and convenience, on top of them having a convenient place to have their entire library and dont want to go through the hassle of using another borked launcher... which allows me to talk about the next point.



Launchers, storefronts and cuts:

The other important point to talk about is to dismiss the idea that people are against Steam competitors. In fact, a lot of the people who raised criticism toward Epic Games' initiative mostly buy from other storefronts. For exemple, in the entire year of 2018, I bought 5 games on Steam. But more than 50 on other storefronts, which activated on Steam. Which is why it's important to make a distinction between the launchers and the storefronts. People are, in fact, excited by new storefronts. What is bad for them though is new launchers.

Because while the former means lower prices around the board, policy competition, the latter always translates into worse experience at best, broken experience at worse (Bethesda !). On top of that, it often leads to a fragmentation of your friendlist, your library and sometimes even the game community (Dying Light on GOG is using different servers than Dying Light on Steam while Windows Store version of Call of Duty also used their own servers compared to the Steam version).

It's also a burden for devs because they often have to handle multiple builds of one PC game for multiple launchers, which often leads to differences between builds (there's a lot of GOG games lacking features from their Steam versions, either updates or features such as multiplayer or leaderboards just because devs don't want to spend the money to handle two builds on PC). So not only it's always a bad thing for users, it's also a bad thing for developers.

Which allows me to come back onto the cut part and the wish for developers to change it to a more fair cut toward them. While I understand that wish, which is natural, you also have to keep in mind that this 30% cut is what allows us today to have multiple storefronts across the board. Indeed, for these stores (GreenManGaming, Humble Bundle, Voidu, Wingamestore, Razergamestore, Gamesplanet) to compete between themselves, their way is to offer discounts on new titles, to make people purchase on their storefronts.

How do they offer these 10 to 20% discounts ? By eating into their own margin. Basically, on a 60 dollars game, the developer will get 42 dollars. But to make the price more competitive, the discount will be taken on the 18 dollars of the storefront, so 8 dollars instead of 10 to make the game 50 dollars. If 12% becomes the norm, you'll never see a discount lower than 5% at launch, unless the devs take it on their cut. Which can allow me to tackle the final point (wheeew).

Monopoly and competition:

The final and last point is about monopoly and competition. Indeed, this is the entire about of launching a competitor. To make the market better. But when you look at it, what's the state of the PC market ? A common misconception is that Steam is holding a monopoly. But when you take a look at it:
They never pay someone for exclusivity. Their initiatives push for more openess and hardware/vendor agnostic features. Heck, they entertain competition by themselves by allowing devs to generate Steam keys for free and in unlimited quantity and sell them elsewhere for a 100% cut (or any other cut between them and another storefront) which is the reason why we have other storefronts that can exist. It's not because you dominate a market that you're in a situation of monopoly or abuse it.

It's not to say Steam is perfect. There are a LOT of valid criticism to be had about that platform. Midnight launches aren't the norm yet, the UI could get (well, it's going to) have a makeover. Big Picture isn't perfect and has some bugs. There are abuses and toxicity in the reviews and communities (which is overweighted by the benefits imo). There's no video sharing system (only a streaming one). They have no curation (Which isn't the reason for games not selling, since these tend to be overshadowed by other good games, but is a problem regarding hateful titles, even though curation leads to the opposite situation where devs cant even release their games and I'll think we'll see a lot of rejection with Epic Store). Competition would be needed to make Valve work on these issues.

But the problem the competition we have right now doesn't adress these valid criticisms. In fact, all the competitors so far, including Epic, are only looking to have THEIR tiny monopolies. Most of them have been around for years, nearly decades and they're still dangerously lagging behind in term of features. Origin still has no controller support. Battle.net still uses REGION LOCKED friendlists. Epic's client, which has been around for more than 3 years already (only their store released a few days ago, with barebones storepages). Windows Store is in a sorry state. Heck, Bethesda launcher is broken.

And in fact, customers should in no way wait for competitors to be decent solely on good will. Apple didn't release a phone in 2007 that had was still using a black and white screen. Tesla didn't release their first car using horses instead of an engine.

The only added value everytime was to take a game and sell it either only on their store, or only throught their launcher. Sometimes both. With next to no improvements in years. And Epic Games declarations so far points to the same result. And well, people also remembers the Games For Windows Live disaster, with the loss of that client leading to the loss of multiple games online play, features or even games.

Competition exists already on that market with storefronts and its good. It also exists between launchers and its downright terrible and anti-consumer, since it aims to lock down a product while not even looking for improvement. People likes competition. This isn't competition.

People don't complain about these competitors because they have some loyalty to a brand. It's because they want to keep their convenience, their features, their lower prices. And in some cases, not losing their games.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Echo1

Banned
Oct 25, 2018
80
Automated refunds are a must (and surely coming, once Epic finds a way to deal with the ensuing fraud) but beyond that....solid 1.0. Largely what I would expect from a PC storefront launching in 2018. Miles above the Bethesda Launcher.
 

invid02

Self requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
61
Depends if we are talking about content which has a separate DLC listing on Steam or not. Those can have keys generated just like the game.

For example, on Rocket League all the cars can be bought on third party websites, but keys cannot. You need to pay for keys with your steam wallet or paypal.

I think it's less the seperate DLC listing items in games like Just cause, or the big expansion packs or story DLC and rather the consumable microtransactions or galleries of cosmetic stuff - thats where the big money is. If that can't be purchased directly in game from the publishers account shop without giving Steam 30% then its not hard to see why publishers are getting uneasy as the games as a service future looms, especially with the runaway success of stuff like Fortnite.

And even if it could be, are most people really gonna go out of game, open a browser to checkout on a microtransaction or buy it from a CD key site? I'd guess not. I know personally all of my microtransactiony purchases have been in game with a big helping of impulsiveness and heat of the moment
 

texhnolyze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,150
Indonesia
Based on my view, it appears that Epic Games Store is positioned as a more developer-focused storefront than Steam, which seems more consumer/end-user focused.
Exactly. That's why all the ignorant comments are ridiculous.

We don't prefer Steam because we're loyal to the brand, we simply prefer it because they value our needs. We are consumers, like the majority of users here too.
 
Epic Games Refunds Policy

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
Their refunds policy is absolutely awful.

2 "no questions asked" refunds when you start your account (for purchases no more than 14 days old, with the chance to get an extra refund annually but no more than 2 refunds total per year)

bKqdXIh.png


This is worse than just about every single one of their competitors. I made some examples in my thread about this: Origin offer what they call the "Great Game Guarantee", which gives allows you to refund an unlimited number of games, as long as it is before 14 days from the purchase date, or 24 hours after first opening it. However, you are not allowed to return the same game for a refund more than 2 times. Steam allows you to refund an unlimited number of games, as long as you haven't played it for more than 2 hours. Gog offer their "Money Back guarantee" , for technical problems faced within the first 30 days of purchase.

And as we know, their "no questions asked" comment is hardly true: https://www.resetera.com/threads/epic-store-non-compliance-with-gdpr-and-refund-policy-reddit.85913/
 

Faabulous

Member
Oct 27, 2017
255
Reposting what I think from the other thread:
In my opinion there is no competition on the costumer side. The competition is for devs.

Epic has guessed (correctly in my view) that if they attract the right developers and offer them a better deal, they don't need to compete with steam in any other way. If the game you want to play is exclusive to the epic store you need to download the epic launcher and buy through them. That's it.

Sure, steam absolutely needed competition on the attracting devs side, but to even pretend they are competing for users with these extremely anti-consumer acts is ludicrous, they never even intended to compete.

Honestly, I completely understand why people are upset. Doing the whole 'buying exclusives' thing is blatantly anti-consumer. With deep enough pockets anyone can become a player in the market because consumers will have no choice but to abide (if they want to keep doing it the legal way) and that leaves a sour taste, just look at the streaming market, more specifically anime streaming, people were furious when Amazon pulled this and they actually celebrated when their service died. It's not even like the arms race just started, we have been moving in this direction for a while now.
 

Lump

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,954
The store isn't where it should be for 2018, but their roadmap (and their massive Fortnite cashflow) position it to be where it needs to be for 2019 at this point next year.
 

Echo1

Banned
Oct 25, 2018
80
Exactly. That's why all the ignorant comments are ridiculous.

We don't prefer Steam because we're loyal to the brand, we simply prefer it because they value our needs. We are consumers, like the majority of users here too.

The needs of developers serve the needs of consumers. Developers want to be ripped off less. Developers don't want a toxic message board attached to their game. Developers want XY&Z. Most, if not all, ultimately serve the product. Which serves the consumer.

Of course, gaming discourse is completely disconnected from the reality and mostly focuses on outrage and entitlement, which is why you see shouts of 'anti-consumer!' any time any company tries to change things.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
The fundamental problem with this whole curated approach is that the increase in visibility is only apparent to people who browse the store looking for new games to play (and are willing to pay up-front for them). The problem is that the number of people doing that at the Epic Store is negligible at this time. I suppose that's the purpose of the free games, to get people to regularly look at the front page. Whether they can convert said people into paying customers is another question entirely.

Another argument is that the Epic Launcher has been spread widely due to Fortnite, but that also applies to the Microsoft Store (which is pre-installed to all Windows 10 computers), so I think it's safe to dismiss this argument.

I do think Epic's strategy of focusing entirely on developers at the expense of the customer experience won't work. I do think that they're dramatically over-estimating the number of Windows Fortnite players that don't instinctively go to Steam/GOG/Humble/etc when looking to buy a new game, and I do think that free games are not particularly effective in generating a paying customer base (see: Origin using more-or-less the exact same tactic to negligible effect).
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
So when someone claims that they won't get a game if it releases somewhere else exclusively, don't think of it as a form of tribalism or brand loyalty but more as of a loss for them of important features and convenience, on top of them having a convenient place to have their entire library and dont want to go through the hassle of using another borked launcher... which
This. Why would I want my games (or some exclusives) in an environment I don't like? Monopolies aren't good for consumers, but allowing competition (that sucks) just for the sake of it won't get us anywhere. If publishers truly want to be competitive, they should at least offer the same basics that aren't for convenience but respect the consumers (moral) rights, such as refunds. Cloud savegames in an ever more mobile generation of consumers/gamers is paramount; but not only for transportation convenience but also for back up reasons. Even GOG offers cloud savegames for many games, and console gamers with an active subscription know about it, too.

And aren't exclusive deals the very opposite of the monopoly people want to prevent from happening/staying? I'm 'forced' (if I want to play it) to use that particular launcher in order to play it. Competition, for me, is giving the choice on what (PC) platform you play the game, not if you play it or not at all.

I'm also not against different launchers. Origin and uPlay are damn fine. I once went to a refund process on Origin which was easy as fuck and "just worked". In such case, it really is "another launcher" for me. Epic's or Bethesda's launchers, however, is an "another inferior launcher" for me I simply don't want to use for given reasons.

Developers want to be ripped off less. Developers don't want a toxic message board attached to their game. Developers want XY&Z. Most, if not all, ultimately serve the product. Which serves the consumer.
I don't see developers delivering better games with less "rip off" or less toxic boards.
 

SweetNicole

The Old Guard
Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,542

That there is only two refunds in a given year is awful. I can't imagine the justification behind this. There should be automatic refunds and an unlimited number of them. It's 2018 soon to be 2019 for crying out loud. Refunds is one of the things that Origin, and then Steam, have gotten right. Epic needs to step it up.
 

Echo1

Banned
Oct 25, 2018
80
This. Why would I want my games (or some exclusives) in an environment I don't like? Monopolies aren't good for consumers, but allowing competition (that sucks) just for the sake of it won't get us anywhere. If publishers truly want to be competitive, they should at least offer the same basics that aren't for convenience but respect the consumers (moral) rights, such as refunds. Cloud savegames in an ever more mobile generation of consumers/gamers is paramount; but not only for transportation convenience but also for back up reasons. Even GOG offers cloud savegames for many games, and console gamers with an active subscription know about it, too.

And aren't exclusive deals the very opposite of the monopoly people want to prevent from happening/staying? I'm 'forced' (if I want to play it) to use that particular launcher in order to play it. Competition, for me, is giving the choice on what (PC) platform you play the game, not if you play it or not at all.

I'm also not against different launchers. Origin and uPlay are damn fine. I once went to a refund process on Origin which was easy as fuck and "just worked". In such case, it really is "another launcher" for me. Epic's or Bethesda's launchers, however, is an "another inferior launcher" for me I simply don't want to use for given reasons.

You not liking the environment is not a factor. Some of us are old enough to remember when Steam launched and the entire Pc gaming world lost their shit at having to install this 'always running' app to play Counter-strike. Somehow people managed fine, their threats to never use Steam were revealed for the lies that they were and everyone moved on.

What you find comfortable is not a factor for publishers/developers.
 

Echo1

Banned
Oct 25, 2018
80
.


I don't see developers delivering better games with less "rip off" or less toxic boards.

The developers are the ones being ripped off, by Valve, by Valve demanding an outrageous cut for their services. The toxic message boards I refer to are the Steam Community boards, which Epic wisely did not clone for their store.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,119
taking a wait and see approach but i like what they're offering. i've made my peace that the future of PC will be a bunch of walled gardens, so until they start charging sub fees or something i'll just live with it
 
OP
OP
bbq of doom

bbq of doom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,606
That there is only two refunds in a given year is awful. I can't imagine the justification behind this. There should be automatic refunds and an unlimited number of them. It's 2018 soon to be 2019 for crying out loud. Refunds is one of the things that Origin, and then Steam, have gotten right. Epic needs to step it up.

Their refund language is confusing (to say the least) and I think they need to clearly address it in the near future. Leaving it to a consumer to search twitter for clarification is unacceptable IMO.
 

Echo1

Banned
Oct 25, 2018
80
For me it is. That's where the "no Steam no buy mentality comes from".


Fair enough. Never said anything different, though.

Well, tough? You do not have the power to dictate the terms on which goods are sold. Developers (and publishers, which will hurt more) are leaving Steam enmasse. You can decide not to buy stuff sold outside Steam, but you will have to sacrifice countless AAA titles to do that long term.
 

senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,430
The fundamental problem with this whole curated approach is that the increase in visibility is only apparent to people who browse the store looking for new games to play (and are willing to pay up-front for them). The problem is that the number of people doing that at the Epic Store is negligible at this time. I suppose that's the purpose of the free games, to get people to regularly look at the front page. Whether they can convert said people into paying customers is another question entirely.
It's also not clear that curation is going to mean increased visibility for the developers who actually need it most.

Curation largely seems to mean Epic hand-picking established, big-name Indies who are unlikely to fail (and why wouldn't they, they're trying to drum up business for their store by cornering desirable games people already want). These are the Indies who least had a visibility problem, because everybody already knew about them and what their upcoming games are.

Jane New Indie Developer isn't going to get hand-picked for Epic's store, and that's the developer who's most suffering for visibility in the current market. It's not clear to me that the Epic store actually shifts the needle on visibility at all.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
The developers are the ones being ripped off, by Valve, by Valve demanding an outrageous cut for their services. The toxic message boards I refer to are the Steam Community boards, which Epic wisely did not clone for their store.
Yes, I've read your post.

Well, tough? You do not have the power to dictate the terms on which goods are sold. Developers (and publishers, which will hurt more) are leaving Steam enmasse. You can decide not to buy stuff sold outside Steam, but you will have to sacrifice countless AAA titles to do that long term.
I truly do not have that power, yes. But people as a collective have. In the end, the market dictates. Which is okay. If they really move away from Steam without delivering the quality, I guess I have to think about my consumerism in regards of PC gaming.
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
That there is only two refunds in a given year is awful. I can't imagine the justification behind this. There should be automatic refunds and an unlimited number of them. It's 2018 soon to be 2019 for crying out loud. Refunds is one of the things that Origin, and then Steam, have gotten right. Epic needs to step it up.
And this is a feature they actively thought about and decided was okay. Unlike many things, it cannot be defended by "it's not finished yet" like a lot of the other missing features.

The developers are the ones being ripped off, by Valve, by Valve demanding an outrageous cut for their services. The toxic message boards I refer to are the Steam Community boards, which Epic wisely did not clone for their store.

Do you also believe Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo are ripping off developers?
 

Echo1

Banned
Oct 25, 2018
80
And this is a feature they actively thought about and decided was okay. Unlike many things, it cannot be defended by "it's not finished yet" like a lot of the other missing features.

That doesn't actually appear to really be the case. It feels more like an unthinking borrowing of policy from Fortnite, which can't have an unlimited refund policy for skins for obvious reason. Seriously doubt the policy will last long.

Do you also believe Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo are ripping off developers?

Please don't act in bad faith. I think you understand the nature of the console market, which involves (to a lesser extent than before, but still) subsidized hardware and a meaningful level of developer support & marketing push.
 

Forsaken82

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,923
That there is only two refunds in a given year is awful. I can't imagine the justification behind this. There should be automatic refunds and an unlimited number of them. It's 2018 soon to be 2019 for crying out loud. Refunds is one of the things that Origin, and then Steam, have gotten right. Epic needs to step it up.

A "no questions asked" refund system seems like a pretty easy system to exploit in 14 days, so IMO it makes sense to limit it unless they plan on removing the "no questions asked" portion of the policy. Steam and Origin are more or less not "no questions asked" unless the game has been absolutely terrible/broken (which are typically issues discovered under the policy's Valve and EA have set)
 
Oct 31, 2017
1,260
The Blocc
Their refunds policy is absolutely awful.



bKqdXIh.png


This is worse than just about every single one of their competitors. I made some examples in my thread about this: Origin offer what they call the "Great Game Guarantee", which gives allows you to refund an unlimited number of games, as long as it is before 14 days from the purchase date, or 24 hours after first opening it. However, you are not allowed to return the same game for a refund more than 2 times. Steam allows you to refund an unlimited number of games, as long as you haven't played it for more than 2 hours. Gog offer their "Money Back guarantee" , for technical problems faced within the first 30 days of purchase.

And as we know, their "no questions asked" comment is hardly true: https://www.resetera.com/threads/epic-store-non-compliance-with-gdpr-and-refund-policy-reddit.85913/

This is exactly why I no longer buy digital games from companies like Sony and why if I'm not sure I'll like a game, I buy it on steam first to try it out. I probably refunded 6-8 games this year. Just refunded thief simulator the day before yesterday because I played it for a half hour and didn't like it. Epic's store is so anti-consumer, good thing I have no reason to purchase games from them.
 

Echo1

Banned
Oct 25, 2018
80
In Fortnite, the limit is 3.

Yeah, but changing the number doesn't necessarily indicate meaningful thought on the subject. More likely that it is the policy going forward in Fortnite, just copied. We'll see. I think they implemented the policy purposefully, but I doubt they gave much thought as to the effectiveness of such restrictive policy. Likely will be the first policy to fall.
 

MarcelRguez

Member
Nov 7, 2018
2,418
The needs of developers serve the needs of consumers. Developers want to be ripped off less. Developers don't want a toxic message board attached to their game. Developers want XY&Z. Most, if not all, ultimately serve the product. Which serves the consumer.

Of course, gaming discourse is completely disconnected from the reality and mostly focuses on outrage and entitlement, which is why you see shouts of 'anti-consumer!' any time any company tries to change things.
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senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,430
The needs of developers serve the needs of consumers. Developers want to be ripped off less. Developers don't want a toxic message board attached to their game. Developers want XY&Z. Most, if not all, ultimately serve the product. Which serves the consumer.

Of course, gaming discourse is completely disconnected from the reality and mostly focuses on outrage and entitlement, which is why you see shouts of 'anti-consumer!' any time any company tries to change things.

You not liking the environment is not a factor. Some of us are old enough to remember when Steam launched and the entire Pc gaming world lost their shit at having to install this 'always running' app to play Counter-strike. Somehow people managed fine, their threats to never use Steam were revealed for the lies that they were and everyone moved on.

What you find comfortable is not a factor for publishers/developers.

So on the one hand, "what good for developers is ultimately good for consumers" in a kind of Trickle-Down Theory of Consumer Benefit, but also "tough shit consumer, whether or not you like what you're given is irrelevant"?

You kind of need to pick a lane here.
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
Please don't act in bad faith. I think you understand the nature of the console market, which involves (to a lesser extent than before, but still) subsidized hardware and a meaningful level of developer support & marketing push.

The subsidized hardware costs specifically relate to the platform holder, and are irrelevant to the developers who release on the platform.

Developer support is comparable, Valve have contacts who are happy to answer questions and set things up for you if you request it.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,298
The needs of developers serve the needs of consumers. Developers want to be ripped off less. Developers don't want a toxic message board attached to their game. Developers want XY&Z. Most, if not all, ultimately serve the product. Which serves the consumer.

Of course, gaming discourse is completely disconnected from the reality and mostly focuses on outrage and entitlement, which is why you see shouts of 'anti-consumer!' any time any company tries to change things.




"Customer is king"
 

SweetNicole

The Old Guard
Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,542
A "no questions asked" refund system seems like a pretty easy system to exploit in 14 days, so IMO it makes sense to limit it unless they plan on removing the "no questions asked" portion of the policy. Steam and Origin are more or less not "no questions asked" unless the game has been absolutely terrible/broken.

Personally, I'd rather see them adopt a similar stance to Steam where so long as you do not exceed a certain number of hours, you can still return the game. I think that is more in line with what traditional refund policies are at stores in general. That gives me more confidence buying a game that I can always refund it if I am uncertain. If the concern at Epic is about abuse of the refund system yearly, it makes more sense for them to adopt asking some questions, but give the consumer an unlimited number of refunds so long as they check the boxes. Either way, that seems to be a more fleshed out refund policy that benefits both the consumers and Epic more.
 

Echo1

Banned
Oct 25, 2018
80
I mean, reading their post history, they seem to be an alt-account on full force here.

I just don't post here much.
So on the one hand, "what good for developers is ultimately good for consumers" in a kind of Trickle-Down Theory of Consumer Benefit, but also "tough shit consumer, whether or not you like what you're given is irrelevant"?

You kind of need to pick a lane here.

Yeah, no. It's not 'trickle down scam' stuff, it's 'a big cut for Valve actually hurts us, because the amount of money lost is material' and lots of other smaller problems with Valve.

Trickle down is the (false) belief that the rich getting richer somehow benefits those below them. The situation here is developers who aren't making a lot get to make more money, which encourages them to keep making games & to take risks they otherwise wouldn't.

I doubt the difference in fees will make up for the growing cost of game development, but it is something that can be addressed.
 

Eden

Member
Nov 15, 2017
414
I'm not supporting the store because of the exclusivity stuff but they could have easily come up with other positive additions that didn't rely on paying off devs.

Since fortnite is huge why not do what valve used to do and offer exclusive themed skins for fortnite for buying certain games.

Why not offer store credit on every purchase like the eShop.

Give a real reason for people to want to use your store.

With that said, I feel the topic has been exhausted already.
 

Ikuu

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,294
The developers who aren't making a lot aren't going to get invited to the Epic Store lol.
 

Echo1

Banned
Oct 25, 2018
80
The subsidized hardware costs specifically relate to the platform holder, and are irrelevant to the developers who release on the platform.

Developer support is comparable, Valve have contacts who are happy to answer questions and set things up for you if you request it.

That is complete nonsense, and you know it. The subsidy model increases the number of customers to sell to, developers like it. Publishers like it. Everyone involved understands how it is different from the PC.

Not even close. Not even in the same universe. Ask any poster here who is vERAfied as a developer, they'll tell you.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,949
The needs of developers serve the needs of consumers. Developers want to be ripped off less. Developers don't want a toxic message board attached to their game. Developers want XY&Z. Most, if not all, ultimately serve the product. Which serves the consumer.

By toxic message boards you mean ones that warn other users of how poorly optimized their game is?

Because all of Epic's paid for games are going to run beautifully with no issues right? No need for reviews and make refunds such a hassle that they'll rarely be used.

Really serving the consumer there.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
It's also not clear that curation is going to mean increased visibility for the developers who actually need it most.

Curation largely seems to mean Epic hand-picking established, big-name Indies who are unlikely to fail (and why wouldn't they, they're trying to drum up business for their store by cornering desirable games people already want). These are the Indies who least had a visibility problem, because everybody already knew about them and what their upcoming games are.

Jane New Indie Developer isn't going to get hand-picked for Epic's store, and that's the developer who's most suffering for visibility in the current market. It's not clear to me that the Epic store actually shifts the needle on visibility at all.
That's also true. Although, the impression I get is that basically all indies want curation that includes themselves and no more. I do think there's a fair chance that "Indie game rejected from Epic Store for [bullshit reason]" is going to be a recurring story in 2019.

A third factor is that visibility decreases as more games get added onto the store, even if the rate of releases is kept to a GOG-esque one game per day (and not the 25+ games a week the Switch is currently experiencing). We've seen this already with the PS4 no longer being seen as the indie's golden ticket (although as the "State of PS4 in 2018" thread demonstrates, how much of that is media narrative vs actual reduction of sales is an open question), and I do expect to see a fair number of "indie game bombs on Switch" stories in 2019.

In short, the arguments in favour of curation fall apart when you think about them for a few minutes.

(That said, I do note that comparing consoles vs the Epic Store is not an apples-and-oranges comparison, as there's no alternative to PSN and the eShop, while Epic is competing with dozens of digital distributors from day one. Which is a large part of the reason why I think Epic dropping the ball on the day 1 customer experience is going to hurt. First impressions last a lifetime, after all, and "this store breaks GDPR and has an illegal refund policy" is not a good first impression).
 

Echo1

Banned
Oct 25, 2018
80
By toxic message boards you mean one that warns other users of how poorly optimized their game is?

Because all of Epic's paid for games are going to run beautifully with no issues right? No need for reviews and make refunds such a hassle that they'll rarely be used.

Really serving the consumer there.

By toxic message boards I mean flagrant racism, threats of piracy, threads encouraging others to review bomb (and review bombing being allowed in the first place), etc. Just look at any Steam Community page, they are near universally awful.

There is never a need for abusive conduct. Without the strongest possible moderation, storefront message boards are not worth having. And that moderation would be too expensive, too restrictive to work in the real world. It'd have to be like a Disney Company board or something, with post approval and everything.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,298
I'll take "what is a tired pseudo-adage used by employers to justify treating retail workers like shit" for 500$.


I don't know what a Jeopardy is


In other words: People want a service. You know why PC gaming didnt died in 2008-2012 ? Because Steam made sure service was great for customers. It's not only sales because if it was about money, piracy is free and nothing beats free.

If you fail to provide a compelling service, people will resort to piracy. Basically, if Epic think they'll get people to buy games on their terrible service by moneyhatting devs to be there, all they'll get is a lot of people downloading illegally these games.

People value service and convenience, that's what anyone who watched the PC market during the last decade. Which means, not Epic Games:
https://bit-tech.net/news/gaming/pc/epic-pc-piracy-drove-us-to-consoles/1/

So yeah, that explains why they're so out of touch.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,265
Good OP. I would argue that Steam certainly has a slight monopoly. They bought market share with fire sale prices for years (that they don't replicate anymore), and some benefits of buying that market share are now impossible to replicate (unless Valve is open to another client importing your friends list and stuff like that? I'm unsure if they've commented on that).

To say it another way, the greatest possible client you can picture still has features that can't be replicated without Valve's permission. I think people are too focused on how shit the Epic client is instead of the broader discussion. Yes, Steam > Epic thing. 100%. But a broader discussion is that there are some ways that Steam > Literally Any Other Client. And it's not a stretch to call those features "exclusive" for all intents and purposes (again, assuming Valve isn't open to other places importing those exclusives).


This isn't a pre-req for a monopoly. Walmart, Amazon, etc... all have competitors (and other than an actual govt-enforced monopoly, every example of monopolies would still have some token competition).

The question is do these other stores have the ability to gain significant market share? Maybe, maybe not. But I want to point out that the existence of other stores doesn't preclude a monopoly.

Steam can't dictate the selling price essentially independent of demand.

This is also too high of a standard for a monopoly. Even a govt-enforced monopoly can't make people pay a billion dollars a game. The question is can Steam leverage its market share to setting game prices higher as a standard? Like, if Steam upped all new titles by $10, could they do it? If so, you might have a monopoly. Again, might!

Because there's dozens and dozens of stores to buy PC games from, there's like 15 clients out there all seemingly withholding their own games from steam, and the biggest games on PC aren't on steam (fortnite, WoW, minecraft, LoL, Overwatch etc)?

This is a better argument, though this falls into the trap of "if you don't wanna give Valve their cut, just go be League of Legends or WoW." People essentially use this argument to defend the basically non-existent curation by pointing to good sales from indie games that are honestly just unrealistic (and if someone asked you for a loan to help them finance a game that'll "totally just do what Minecraft did" then you should slap them.)

You need mid-tier titles to point to. If you have to make Fortnite to open a competing store with any hope of success, then it's kinda insane to say you could really open a competing store.

Edit: this was for the other thread so we'll see how it holds up!
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,298
By toxic message boards I mean flagrant racism, threats of piracy, threads encouraging others to review bomb (and review bombing being allowed in the first place), etc. Just look at any Steam Community page, they are near universally awful.

There is never a need for abusive conduct. Without the strongest possible moderation, storefront message boards are not worth having. And that moderation would be too expensive, too restrictive to work in the real world. It'd have to be like a Disney Company board or something, with post approval and everything.



And Epic Games answer to that is... Using Reddit. Which is known for its non toxic/non racist boards. :"")
 

Khrol

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,179
A lot of what they're doing makes sense and sounds good on paper.

That said it will take a lot more than Fortnite and a handful of carefully curated indie games to even get me sniffing their store.

I have absolutely zero interest in Fortnite and indie games aren't typically my cup of tea. Rebel Galaxy Outlaw is the only game that moves the needle for me, but it's only one and I'm happy to wait for it to show up on the other platforms I'm invested in.

Good luck to them with this. They have a lot to prove to get my money and investment.
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
That is complete nonsense, and you know it. The subsidy model increases the number of customers to sell to, developers like it. Publishers like it. Everyone involved understands how it is different from the PC.

Not even close. Not even in the same universe. Ask any poster here who is vERAfied as a developer, they'll tell you.
Consoles do not take losses on hardware any more, they are much cheaper to produce now than they used to be (For example, the PS3 was released at a significantly subsidized price, the PS4 launched ~£30 more than its manufacturing cost).

Regarding my original post about do you believe Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft rip off their developers compared to Valve. This is from a vERAfied member, Paz. Developer of Assault Android Cactus:

I don't know if Valve really earn their industry standard % but if you're comparing them purely with the other alternative storefronts and platforms they certainly don't come off lacking, so if folks really believe they don't deserve their % then it's probably the industry standard that really needs to change in this new world of open markets.

We have had other developers post in this very thread already, too. Not all devs have a verafied tag.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,298
Epic Games answer to this is allowing developers to choose what to do, rather than requiring them to have a board linked right to their game page.



Which shows how out of touch they are. It's a storefront that was designed for developers. But clearly not one designed by people who are customer. Because otherwise they'd know how these boards are important to fix issues by yourself because most of the time, someone posted a thread about that issue and resolved it and searching for the error name leads to the answer.

Instead, devs will enjoy a LOT of support tickets.
 

Echo1

Banned
Oct 25, 2018
80
Consoles do not take losses on hardware any more, they are much cheaper to produce now than they used to be (For example, the PS3 was released at a significantly subsidized price, the PS4 launched ~£30 more than its manufacturing cost).

My original post about if you believe Nintendo/Sony/etc rip off developers stems from a vERAfied member, in fact. Paz, developer of Assault Android Cactus:



We have had other developers post in this very thread already, too. Not all devs have a verafied tag.

See the 'less than they used to, but still' part. Depends on the SKU, depends on how good the sale is.

That post does not relate to what I was asking. I was saying 'ask any dev if console platform holder support is better or worse than what Valve offers'.