• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,081
Halifax, NS
Asking what value a store has been for consumers "aside from sales" is a poor argument.

How is it a poor argument? Every store on earth does sales. That does literally nothing to make it stand out from the pact. It does absolutely nothing to make it a more worthwhile use of my time than literally any other storefront.

So if Tim essentially admits the only reason people would use EGS is if he throws his money around to buy up exclusives, he's admitting the EGS doesn't actually provide a single bit of value to the market overall. That it's disappearance would not disproportionately affect the marketplace in any way. That literally the only reason the EGS functions is that it's subsidized by the money they make from Fortnite and Unreal Engine licenses.

That's the crux of the question of the value-add. What does EGS actually do for consumers that is an improvement over the environment we already have? What does it bring that helps counteract the loss of features that I get from other storefronts?

And the answer keeps coming back to "absolutely nothing".
 

qrac

Member
Nov 13, 2017
752
I agree with him. If stores could compete with Valve then there would already be other as big stores as Steam. But they can't. GoG was on its way but Valve quickly started with they summer deals when GoG was rising in popularity, and at the same time Valve floded Steam with games. Which even more cemented Steam as the de facto store for PC. Just look att released games/year and when the (long gone good) summer deals started. Conceited with GoGs rising and other competitors starting up.

Now we're in 2019 and we have a store everyone uses because that's where their library is. And some niche stores.

The only way to combat that is with exclusive games. Because the majority (imo) care more about where their games are than about exotic features. So if Epic can get people to have the games gamers care about exclusive on EGS then they will grow and gamers will gradually shift from Steam where gamers have older games they cared about.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,081
Halifax, NS
lol hasn't been this bad? what? what are you talking about? Nintendo has complete exclusivity for all of its major games. Playstation has exclusives for several of the top selling games every year. Xbox has plenty of exclusives also.

Are you conflating first party games with third party exclusives?

Also you're still not getting what a monopoly actually is.

You are not literally forced to release your game on Steam. Gabe Newell doesn't have a gun to your head forcing you to put your code on his storefront. They are the largest storefront because they provided the most consumer benefiting features on a platform that was being underserviced and poorly treated. Epic famously quit the "pc game" industry because of how shit it was. Steam gained it's place in the market by trying to make it better, and they did, and now they're on top. It wasn't through writing off huge checks to companies to stop them from competing.

Nothing is stopping someone from coming along and actually trying to create a better marketplace with better features. EGS isn't trying to do that. And as a consumer, that's all that should matter at the end of the day.
 
Last edited:

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
People are using it though - Epic know that exclusive games attracts attention to the store. They're trying to build a user base in the quickest way possible.

I don't think the alternative of building and iterating on a user friendly store would work. Month 1, the Epic Games Store has launched with a shopping cart. Month 4, cloud save functionality has been implemented. Month 8, stream your games to your television with Epic Link. Month 14, the Epic Store will be shutting down. It doesn't seem like a practical investment.

Steam is tied to PC gaming. PC gaming libraries are tied to Steam. Steam didn't buy exclusivity, but it has exclusivity that EGS can't get without buying it. I don't see how they can be a challenger to Steam otherwise.

This is a weird kind of fatalism. Like the makers of Unreal Engine 4, and its feature-dense editor don't have the engineering capacity to make a better gaming hub than Steam?

Steam isn't untouchable, but nobody has actually tried.
 

XNihili

Banned
Jan 16, 2018
221
Looking at Google, facebook and all the social network stuff, end users now don't care about corporation competition.
They want all the convenience and a monopoly does bring convenience (at a cost people people are willing to ignore).
Removing all stores beside Steam is convenient and probably the best solution for common PC gamers.
 

Deleted member 56773

User requested account closure
Banned
May 16, 2019
159
User banned (5 days): Ignoring the staff post and antagonizing other members over several posts in the thread
A monopoly doesnt have 70% of market share, it has 100%.

Maybe you should check what a monopoly actually is.

Maybe you should check how anti-trust laws work. You do not need to have 100% control to be considered a monopoly and sued.

See, I actually live in the real world, where everything is grey, and Steam is not a god and EGS is not the devil. I couldn't care less about either. People are just so worked up by this it's laughable. Look at the people responding with one liners to me - someone said it's "the worst comment they've ever read" lol seriously? on the internet? okayyyyyyyy. Y'all need to just chill out.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
Looking at Google, facebook and all the social network stuff, end users now don't care about corporation competition.
They want all the convenience and a monopoly does bring convenience (at a cost people people are willing to ignore).
Removing all stores beside Steam is convenient and probably the best solution for common PC gamers.
I mean if Humble, Fanatical, GMG and such folded I'd be pretty pissed off.
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,603
Dude exclusives is all you have because your store fucking sucks. If it wasn't for fortnite and the bags of cash yall throw at people no one would use your store you slimy little rat fuck.

Again, if they would have created/funded their own exclusives, had basic functionality that almost every other online store has had for 10 years plus and were not trying to keep shit off other platforms I wouldn't mind using them.

There are ways to compete with steam, these worthless fucks are just too lazy and cheap to do so
 

InspectorJones

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,619
User banned (3 days): advocating piracy
Yeah sure; all your exclusives are going to do is encourage and promote people to pirate the games they don't want to play on your shitty storefront.
I've personally convinced several people to pirate Sunken City instead of buying it.
 

Hektor

Community Resettler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,884
Deutschland
Can, People, please for the love of god stop using GOG as an example of "competition not being able to make a dent into steam"?
You know, GOG, the web store with a DRM free policy that explicitly forbids many AAA games from being sold on it due to DRM?

By what metric? Steam has a big sale right now, with an unnecessarily convoluted meta-game to encourage people to idle-boost games daily, so are they struggling?

Is steam backtracking on a Statement they made 3 months earlier about never, ever wanting to do sales?
 

z1ggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,187
Argentina
Maybe you should check how anti-trust laws work. You do not need to have 100% control to be considered a monopoly and sued.

See, I actually live in the real world, where everything is grey, and Steam is not a god and EGS is not the devil. I couldn't care less about either. People are just so worked up by this it's laughable. Look at the people responding with one liners to me - someone said it's "the worst comment they've ever read" lol seriously? on the internet? okayyyyyyyy. Y'all need to just chill out.

Anti trust law are to meant to protect consumers from predatory business practices and fair competition. I dont see Valve doing them, are you?
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
Looking at Google, facebook and all the social network stuff, end users now don't care about corporation competition.
They want all the convenience and a monopoly does bring convenience (at a cost people people are willing to ignore).
Removing all stores beside Steam is convenient and probably the best solution for common PC gamers.

There is some truth in this. In a lot of tech, I think users do prefer centralization to fragmentation. This is a political problem more than a technical one. A socialist economy would allow us to have efficient, centralized services that are still subject to democratic decision-making.

But it doesn't have to get that deep. EGS wouldn't be a problem if they weren't buying up exclusives while locking people into a totally inadequate feature set.
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
I agree with him. If stores could compete with Valve then there would already be other as big stores as Steam. But they can't. GoG was on its way but Valve quickly started with they summer deals when GoG was rising in popularity, and at the same time Valve floded Steam with games. Which even more cemented Steam as the de facto store for PC. Just look att released games/year and when the (long gone good) summer deals started. Conceited with GoGs rising and other competitors starting up.

Now we're in 2019 and we have a store everyone uses because that's where their library is. And some niche stores.

The only way to combat that is with exclusive games. Because the majority (imo) care more about where their games are than about exotic features. So if Epic can get people to have the games gamers care about exclusive on EGS then they will grow and gamers will gradually shift from Steam where gamers have older games they cared about.
GOG won't be able to have a big marketshare compared to Steam because of its DRM-Free policy. It is impossible; AAA publishers won't release their games there. See Sega, they haven't released even their old games in GOG.

Yet, GOG provides something unique of value that entices many people to do their business there. Either because of their DRM-Free policy or because they take their time to pick up old games and make them playable in modern operating systems.
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,207
Someone needs to ask Timmy why he can't sell his store on its own merits and only seems capable of doing so by attacking Steam.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
27,941
How is it a poor argument? Every store on earth does sales. That does literally nothing to make it stand out from the pact. It does absolutely nothing to make it a more worthwhile use of my time than literally any other storefront.

So if Tim essentially admits the only reason people would use EGS is if he throws his money around to buy up exclusives, he's admitting the EGS doesn't actually provide a single bit of value to the market overall. That it's disappearance would not disproportionately affect the marketplace in any way. That literally the only reason the EGS functions is that it's subsidized by the money they make from Fortnite and Unreal Engine licenses.

That's the crux of the question of the value-add. What does EGS actually do for consumers that is an improvement over the environment we already have? What does it bring that helps counteract the loss of features that I get from other storefronts?

And the answer keeps coming back to "absolutely nothing".
Tim isn't saying that, and the benefit for consumers is not "absolutely nothing". My free Subnautica and cheap Hades are not "nothing", they are clear benefits to me as a consumer, as has been explained already. If you don't see any point in using his Store, then don't. That's what makes a market.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,081
Halifax, NS
.....what?



if I get banned for that then let the ban come. I said nothing wrong and I stand by it.

You're arguing Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo have tons of exclusives, but the vast majority of those are developed in part or funded by these companies. Epic for the most part wasn't doing that. They were buying games already developed or in the final stretch of development to stop them from being released on other platforms.
 

ZugZug123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,412
Every time Timmy comes with this BS we need to bring up GOG, Itch and all the 3rd party key sites. Steam is not the only game in town and his exclusivity deals block those games from these other smaller vendors which are in no way a threat to Epic. I actually would not mind his moneyhatting as much if it was actually targeted at Steam only and would let smaller shops have those games. I'd buy them from GOG or Itch though, EGS has pissed me off too many times to get a pass :')
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
How can he be wrong if I bought a game or are you under the assumption only your opinion matters? Of course there is also something positive, I got some games cheap like Hayes (which i recommend) and also some free titles. So again are you trying to impose your opinion on everyone because for me there has been some positives.
Good for you but it doesn't mean egs is doing is good. I refuse to support them and will not buy any exclusive games from them. I know I am not alone in that.

It's the only place to get Supergiant's new game. That's where the developer chose to sell it, as is their right, which I support. Asking what value a store has been for consumers "aside from sales" is a poor argument.

To the rest of your points, I support the right of companies to compete on an open platform. Tim is correct that only exclusives can change the status quo from an entrenched leader. EGS has been a net positive *for me* as a consumer. It's the devs who choose to go exclusive there, and if it wasn't working they'd stop doing it. More devs doing well means more and better games for all of us.
It's there right but when the game sells way less than anything else they made than to bad for them, EGS has been a net negative for me and will continue to be. EGS isn't a good thing for the industry and you pretending it is really is sad.
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
Good for you but it doesn't mean egs is doing is good. I refuse to support them and will not buy any exclusive games from them. I know I am not alone in that.

Yeah, it's a shame for Outer Worlds, Borderlands 3, and Control. I would've bought all 3 on Steam day-1. Hopefully these devs look at the longterm damage to their games, their lack of user-base to sell DLC to, and don't repeat this mistake.
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,598
This is a weird kind of fatalism. Like the makers of Unreal Engine 4, and its feature-dense editor don't have the engineering capacity to make a better gaming hub than Steam?

Steam isn't untouchable, but nobody has actually tried.

I'm sure Epic could build a more functional store but I don't think that would attract users. They decided to build the user base first.

I'm sure Steam isn't untouchable, but I don't see how a company would be able to gain the steam to compete by just working on building a better store experience. You'll be sinking money into something for years that nobody is paying attention to, and when you reach parity Steam will beat you due to user investment. I'll forego a minor discount on another site to stick with Amazon, which has had years to endear me to it.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
Yeah, it's a shame for Outer Worlds, Borderlands 3, and Control. I would've bought all 3 on Steam day-1. Hopefully these devs look at the longterm damage to their games, their lack of user-base to sell DLC to, and don't repeat this mistake.
They won't unfortunately, they will blame it on everything else.
 

Rebel1

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,234
Or you could.. I don't know.. Build a better store?

You still don't have cloud saves
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
27,941
By the metric they had to change their strategy

By the metric they had to brag about 700k sales from a game.
Is that bad for a new IP that's mostly MP and on a new Store where people have to enter their payment info for the first time to make a purchase? Are you saying the dev should have chosen a different path? What about the benefits they received in profit margin and visibility which they'd lose elsewhere? Did they expect to sell more? Would it have sold much more elsewhere? Mostly rhetorical questions to be clear. I don't see how that's sufficient evidence to claim the Store is doing poorly.
 

z1ggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,187
Argentina
I'm sure Epic could build a more functional store but I don't think that would attract users. They decided to build the user base first.

I'm sure Steam isn't untouchable, but I don't see how a company would be able to gain the steam to compete by just working on building a better store experience. You'll be sinking money into something for years that nobody is paying attention to, and when you reach parity Steam will beat you due to user investment. I'll forego a minor discount on another site to stick with Amazon, which has had years to endear me to it.
MS just launched Xbox app on PC and its leagues ahead of EGS when it comes to stores.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,081
Halifax, NS
Tim isn't saying that

He's literally saying buying exclusives is the only way to change the market. That's an indirect admission that the EGS is not actually providing a net benefit to consumers, because if 10 out of 10 times people will pick steam over your store, or if given a choice, developers would still choose to release on Steam day 1 rather than not, you haven't actually done anything to try and change the status quo. To be honest I'm not sure I can explain this in any other way that would make you stop hyper focusing on your personal examples that, again, are not unique to the EGS or how they've chosen to operate.
 

z1ggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,187
Argentina
Is that bad for a new IP that's mostly MP and on a new Store where people have to enter their payment info for the first time to make a purchase? Are you saying the dev should have chosen a different path? What about the benefits they received in profit margin and visibility which they'd lose elsewhere? Did they expect to sell more? Would it have sold much more elsewhere? Mostly rhetorical questions to be clear. I don't see how that's sufficient evidence to claim the Store is doing poorly.
No, its not bad. Does it gives you, as a store, bragging rights? I dont think so. But since again, as a store, you have nothing to brag about then...🤣
 
Oct 25, 2017
30,028
Tampa
I am still kind of amazed of how badly Epic dropped the ball here, rightly or wrongly, people were craving for a savoir from Steam and Epic has made Steam the de facto good guy in this war. That is a impressive marketing failure sales figures or not. Part of that fall from grace is statements like this that reek of intelligence insulting credulity.
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
You'll be sinking money into something for years that nobody is paying attention to

This is literally what Valve has been doing with Linux and VR since 2012. Valve takes big risks at the cost of short-term profits. It's one of the reasons they have built up so much goodwill, despite people having significant critiques of their efforts. Epic could do a lot less than Valve and do OK with a lot less hate than they're (rightfully imo) getting.
 

PrimeBeef

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,840
The writer wrote that word. It's not on sweeney's twitter thread as far as I can see.

You say you understand competition but that doesn't seem to be the case at all. From your point of view EGS should be competing with Steam with Feature parity while completely ignoring the absolutely massive market share they have and the decades of dominance and mindshare they've enjoyed. Basically you want them to compete with Steam on Steam's terms and that's not really a winning proposition.

There's nothing "wrong" with steam (well, there's plenty wrong but nothing that would warrant them disappearing) but that doesn't mean steam shouldn't have competition even if that competition doesn't fit your narrow view of the term.
Nope. Never asked for feature parity just industry standard storefront features and a non anti-consumer agenda. Look EGS as a product has zero value without money-hatting for exclusives. That pretty much means they shouldn't be in that arena unless they have a better product. Simple as that. If they opened up a storefront with industry features and said hey we give pubs/devs 88% instead of 70% no one would have issues outside of being majority owned by Tencent. But they didn't. They felt the only way to be viable was to be anti-consumer by reducing competition in the name of being competitive.

Again I understand how competition works. You need to bring something of value to the market. EGS has failed to do that. Hence the money-hatting.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
27,941
He's literally saying buying exclusives is the only way to change the market. That's an indirect admission that the EGS is not actually providing a net benefit to consumers, because if 10 out of 10 times people will pick steam over your store, or if given a choice, developers would still choose to release on Steam day 1 rather than not, you haven't actually done anything to try and change the status quo. To be honest I'm not sure I can explain this in any other way that would make you stop hyper focusing on your personal examples that, again, are not unique to the EGS or how they've chosen to operate.
Question is asked multiple times, "What benefit to a consumer?"
I list the benefits I've had as a consumer.
I'm told that's irrelevant.

OK, I'm out.
 

abracadaver

Banned
Nov 30, 2017
1,469
EGS has yet to support cloud saves.

FUCKING CLOUD SAVES.

1553696133282v4j7l.png
 

Demacabre

Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,058
EGS has yet to support cloud saves.

FUCKING CLOUD SAVES.

But have you considered what is best for developers and ESPECIALLY big publishers?

They get money. I mean your peasant cloud saves is so short sighted and selfish compared to the money they get to trickle down on all of us. Trickle down economics. That's like a right wing fact.

Praise be to Sweeney. Starting the revolution in the PC gaming market for the publishers, the unsung heroes. Some of them will need it when their lootboxes become regulated.
 
Last edited:

khamakazee

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,937
Good for you but it doesn't mean egs is doing is good. I refuse to support them and will not buy any exclusive games from them. I know I am not alone in that.

It's there right but when the game sells way less than anything else they made than to bad for them, EGS has been a net negative for me and will continue to be. EGS isn't a good thing for the industry and you pretending it is really is sad.
Good for you and I did buy exclusives and I know I am not alone. Now what? Also whose pretending, videogames offer an expereince, a form of entertainment. I was entertained, there is no pretending so stop being so absurd just because you don't like how they operate.

Question is asked multiple times, "What benefit to a consumer?"
I list the benefits I've had as a consumer.
I'm told that's irrelevant.

OK, I'm out.
Apparently your opinion doesn't matter.
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,110
I mean it's a joke that he keeps pushing this 30% for gaming being bad. But I'm pretty sure he's gladly doing 30% on Xbox and PSN with no issues or complaints.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,081
Halifax, NS
Question is asked multiple times, "What benefit to a consumer?"
I list the benefits I've had as a consumer.
I'm told that's irrelevant.

OK, I'm out.

No, the question was "what benefit to a consumer does EGS provide to entice us to use it, aside from being bribed to do so?"

And you can't, or won't, answer it. Because you keep coming back to being given a free game, or getting a game on sale, both things that literally anyone could have done, that marketplaces HAVE done and will continue to do. What other factors does EGS have that makes it stand out from a consumer perspective?

Then you just ramble on about some "free market" nonsense or arguing it's their "right" to do so, which literally nobody is arguing against. They ARE arguing that from a consumer's perspective it doesn't actually do anything for us that other companies couldn't already do and ultimately harms the market as a whole.

Can you actually answer that question honestly or are you going to continue to enter EGS threads being unwilling to answer in good faith? All it takes is a "no EGS doesn't actually provide any value to the consumer other than giving out free games occasionally", not just dancing around about it being their right to do so.

Apparently your opinion doesn't matter.

It would help if they actually answered the question instead of dismissing it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Jesus people in these comments need to chill out. Obviously if someone's trying to break up a monopoly they need to get stuff that you can ONLY buy from them. This is an extremely common thing that LITERALLY EVERY LARGE BUSINESS DOES.

Is capitalism stupid? yes. are corporations stupid? yes. Should we be living in some sort of technology supported near-utopia by now instead of spending all our money on war and bullshit? yes. None of that is gonna change the reality that Epic is just doing what any other business would do in the same situation with any product. It's literally what consoles have been doing since video games were created. It's exactly what Steam has been doing for years. Get over it.
But you couldn't even get 20 words into your commentary before being incorrect on essential points. It's hard to talk about things when people can't get a fundamental understanding of the market and the definition of key words they want to use, but think they know what they're talking about.

And what games have console warring seen where a console's only claim to justifying their continued existence was the exclusivity purchase of games already created? In those RARE instances (NO, it's not common in console gaming, stop lying) was it met with pacifism or anger and frustration? The last I remember was Tomb Raider and that was a big controversy. Imagine if Microsoft only made 1 internally developed game this generation and did deals like Epic did for Spider-Man, Monster Hunter World, Red Dead, Destiny 2 and a few other games to have them (not just some DLC junk but these entire games) as exclusive to their console for a year.

Imagine the reaction and apply liberally here.
I agree with him. If stores could compete with Valve then there would already be other as big stores as Steam. But they can't. GoG was on its way but Valve quickly started with they summer deals when GoG was rising in popularity, and at the same time Valve floded Steam with games. Which even more cemented Steam as the de facto store for PC. Just look att released games/year and when the (long gone good) summer deals started. Conceited with GoGs rising and other competitors starting up.

Now we're in 2019 and we have a store everyone uses because that's where their library is. And some niche stores.

The only way to combat that is with exclusive games. Because the majority (imo) care more about where their games are than about exotic features. So if Epic can get people to have the games gamers care about exclusive on EGS then they will grow and gamers will gradually shift from Steam where gamers have older games they cared about.
All of this and not a single word of what any of this has to do with consumers or how they benefit.

What you are describing being "combatted" is a client and store with better consumer-facing features. You're functionally admitting that they can't figure out a way to do the same thing as Valve and improve on the consumer experience so instead their best path forward is to ask/force/demand that people live with less features for the convenience of using their platform.

Do you not see the problem yet? The issue is the framing of the situation. PC gaming didn't *need* EGS. It's not giving PC gamers anything better than what we already had, and in many cases taking several steps backwards. To save us from what, exactly?

And lol 😂 @ farming basic shit like a decent chat system, shopping cart, patch notes, organized categories, and user reviews as "exotic features" that the majority don't care about. How disingenuous can you be?