Epic’s Statement on Misinformation & Abuse [See Staff Post] [UP: Devs release statement]

[Jobbs]

I hope we can ban phrases like "trash devs" "the devs are trash people" "fuck them" all together. No perceived condescending attitude and no decision about game publishing is worth that type of behavior and language. The original thread on this topic here on Era was full of this type of language and it's not okay. The whole thing is like a festering wound of toxicity and attitudes right here on era contribute to it.

I gave the dev some flak in the other thread when I saw the screencaps of how he was responding to people in the discord, but now knowing the full context of what they were dealing with it's no wonder. One day I hope my favourite hobby won't be so full of shitty people.

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I pointed out about 10 times in a row in that thread that there was a fuller context and the devs were obviously experienced sustained harassment, but no one was listening or having it. Instead, I had *my* game dragged up and attacked and suspicions cast on *me* just because I defended them. Here *clap* on *clap* era *clap*.

 

[MatrixMan.exe]

Just a little sanity check if you don't mind. I am a strong critic of EGS and the studios that take those deals for the disastrous impacts its has for everyone in the PC ecosystem. Am I allowed, in your eyes, to voice my views? Are you implying that any criticism and resistance to Epic's tactics, no matter how well-reasoned or well and respectfully written, is directly responsible for the hate the Ooblets devs have received?

Just like we are allowed, and is right, to criticize micro-transactions, buggy games and other deplorable behaviors.

I have seen many posters on Era start going down this slippery slope and I hope you'll understand if I'm not particularly eager to see it run its course. I hope sanity and decency will prevail.

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You're well within you're right to criticise. Everyone is! However I take issue with the mob mentality that keeps cropping up here and elsewhere because that's the sort of shit that potentially can happen here.

Well reasoned and responsible is what we need more of. It also doesn't help that when people try to be more level headed rather than outright lambast something, they're labelled a corporate apologist and all other kinds of name. That's far too common place here and it's toxic af.

 

[Plum]

Holy shit the response the husband and wife devs got. I read their original statement when they went exclusive and I thought it was pretty funny, some sarcasm along with some truths about why going exclusive made the most sense for them.

Shocking that some people took their fun statement as an attack.

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I'm not shocked that some people took the statement as an attack because, to many (including myself), it was.

However what separates that from what the harassers did and continue to do is the belief that "they attacked me so I can attack back and I can do so harder." Instead of posting level-headed criticisms of the article or simply walking away they chose to instead put their anger (and sexism, racism, anti-semitism, etc) into overdrive and start doing, well, what happened.

And unlike real life, where a disproportionate violent response to someone insulting you could get you arrested or worse, there's no punishment for refusing to be the better person (or even the equivalent person) and it's hard for them to even see the consequences of their actions. They can very easily just slide back into cognitive dissonance and the belief that 'they were right' to do what they did.

 

[Swenhir]

You're well within you're right to criticise. Everyone is! However I take issue with the mob mentality that keeps cropping up here and elsewhere because that's the sort of shit that potentially can happen here.

Well reasoned and responsible is what we need more of. It also doesn't help that when people try to be more level headed rather than outright lambast something, they're labelled a corporate apologist and all other kinds of name. That's far too common place here and it's toxic af.

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Right, we're fine then. Thanks.

I guess I'd like to see more of that in the reaction to EGS critics on Era too. Unkind words have been said to people who didn't deserve any of it.

I just wish none of this had happened. Epic, this mess of kickstarter broken promises, all those studios instantly burning bridges and years of goodwill. They are good people and I wish they hadn't made those choices. I still want to support them because their art is incredible, but I can't get behind nor ignore the impact their choices have on the platform.

I hope you have a good day, it's been a tiring situation lately.

 

[rras1994]

I'm not shocked that some people took the statement as an attack because, to many (including myself), it was.

However what separates that from what the harassers did and continue to do is the belief that "they attacked me so I can attack back and I can do so harder." Instead of posting level-headed criticisms of the article or simply walking away they chose to instead put their anger (and sexism, racism, anti-semitism, etc) into overdrive and start doing, well, what happened.

And unlike real life, where a disproportionate violent response to someone insulting you could get you arrested or worse, there's no punishment for refusing to be the better person (or even the equivalent person) and it's hard for them to even see the consequences of their actions. They can very easily just slide back into cognitive dissonance and the belief that 'they were right' to do what they did.

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It wasn't an attack. You weren't attacked

 

[Plum]

It wasn't an attack. You weren't attacked

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The point of that post was that whether the post was an attack or not doesn't matter in the slightest because their actions are what separates them from those who don't harass developers. The bastards who chose to harass these developers are still bastards no matter what their reasoning was, and to focus on the reasoning instead of what they did implies that there is a scenario in which their actions might have been justified. I think we can both agree that there 100% isn't.

 

[Thera]

The point of that post was that whether the post was an attack or not doesn't matter in the slightest because their actions are what separates them from those who don't harass developers. The bastards who chose to harass these developers are still bastards no matter what their reasoning was, and to focus on the reasoning instead of what they did implies that there is a scenario in which their actions might have been justified. I think we can both agree that there 100% isn't.

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Yep, like others have said in this thread (or an other one about the whole Ooblets "situation"), we learnt nothing from gamer gate.

 

[Unclebenny]

The point of that post was that whether the post was an attack or not doesn't matter in the slightest because their actions are what separates them from those who don't harass developers. The bastards who chose to harass these developers are still bastards no matter what their reasoning was, and to focus on the reasoning instead of what they did implies that there is a scenario in which their actions might have been justified. I think we can both agree that there 100% isn't.

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It does matter though.

By suggesting that you were attacked, you are building foundations for the harassers. These people don't just spring out of the void.

Their actions are built upon the overblown rhetoric that now surrounds this discussion.

So by saying you were"attacked" by a very mild jokey statement feeds into the growing sentiment that what these devs did was undeniably wrong. Once that mantra has been repeated enough, someone is going to take it too far.

Language is important here. If thousands of people across the net had been posting "I didn't much care for the tone in that letter" as opposed to "that was incredibly insulting to consumers/ slap in the face/ I was attacked" maybe this situation doesn't escalate.

 

[Dandy]

I fundamentally don't understand why people who supposedly play games for enjoyment, leisure, and escapism are so prone to anger. Maybe it's a generational thing. Or just a human thing.

We all need to be less angry in general.

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It's an internet thing. Pick any topic you can think of(makeup, pregnancy, meditation, etc...). There will be vitriol in the comments/forums.

 

[Charamiwa]

Nathan Grayson at Kotaku wrote a new article about things:

https://kotaku.com/epic-store-rage-has-gotten-out-of-hand-1837008625

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Whether unknowingly or out of malice, Valve went on to fire the starting gun for this same audience to start giving Epic Store developers trouble. When publisher Deep Silver announced that Metro Exodus would be an Epic Store exclusive, Valve published a note on the game's Steam store page calling the move "unfair." Inevitably, Steam review bombs of previous games in the series followed, as did harassment of individual developers and even the author of the books on which the Metro video game series is based.

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It's crazy to me that they're still blaming Steam on that one. Epic went and took a game out of Steam a few weeks before the game launched, after pre order had opened, Steam releases a brief statement to say they don't like it and somehow they're the bad guys? I can't believe they're implying that Valve is to blame for the toxic behaviours in this situation. It's like they're using this harrassing story to throw yet another dig at Steam when it barely relates to the matter at hand.

 

[Dandy]

It's crazy to me that they're still blaming Steam on that one. Epic went and took a game out of Steam a few weeks before the game launched, after pre order had opened, Steam releases a brief statement to say they don't like it and somehow they're the bad guys? I can't believe they're implying that Valve is to blame for the toxic behaviours in this situation. It's like they're using this harrassing story to throw yet another dig at Steam when it barely relates to the matter at hand.

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It's definitely a stretch, that's for sure. Valve barely reacted to what was a pretty scummy move by Epic.

 

[Madjoki]

It's crazy to me that they're still blaming Steam on that one. Epic went and took a game out of Steam a few weeks before the game launched, after pre order had opened, Steam releases a brief statement to say they don't like it and somehow they're the bad guys? I can't believe they're implying that Valve is to blame for the toxic behaviours in this situation. It's like they're using this harrassing story to throw yet another dig at Steam when it barely relates to the matter at hand.

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Nathan Greyson is passionate valve "hater". He does this with every thing even remotely linkable with valve.

 

[Plum]

It does matter though.

By suggesting that you were attacked, you are building foundations for the harassers. These people don't just spring out of the void.

Their actions are built upon the overblown rhetoric that now surrounds this discussion.

So by saying you were"attacked" by a very mild jokey statement feeds into the growing sentiment that what these devs did was undeniably wrong. Once that mantra has been repeated enough, someone is going to take it too far.

Language is important here. If thousands of people across the net had been posting "I didn't much care for the tone in that letter" as opposed to "that was incredibly insulting to consumers/ slap in the face/ I was attacked" maybe this situation doesn't escalate.

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I don't particularly appreciate the claim that I helped to create the harassers because, in the end, these harassers chose to be who they are long before they could have seen an innocuous comment on Era made after the fact that simultaneously condemns them as the shitty, awful people they are. I've already been accused of being part of the campaign for taking offence to an ableist meme posted by the developer so, yeah, that's not appreciated.

However, I simply don't agree that people moderating their language and in turn lying to themselves (and telling others to do the same) in an attempt to prevent the escalation of things is the answer. All it will really do in my eyes is distract both us and them from the fact that what they (the harassers) are doing and likely will do in the future is unequivocally wrong, making it so that we instead hope for a perfect world where things just don't get to the point of escalation instead of working with an imperfect world where, unfortunately, that escalation will happen and has, in this case, already happened. It similarly allows them to just crawl back into cognitive dissonance because to imply that whether they felt like they were attacked or not matters does imply that there's a situation where what they did would have been acceptable.

 

[Vault]

Nathan Greyson is a joke it's hard to take him seriously on anything his Valve crusade is transparent.

 

[Unclebenny]

I don't particularly appreciate the claim that I helped to create the harassers because, in the end, these harassers chose to be who they are long before they could have seen an innocuous comment on Era made after the fact that simultaneously condemns them as the shitty, awful people they are. I've already been accused of being part of the campaign for taking offence to an ableist meme posted by the developer so, yeah, that's not appreciated.

However, I simply don't agree that people moderating their language and in turn lying to themselves (and telling others to do the same) in an attempt to prevent the escalation of things is the answer. All it will really do in my eyes is distract both us and them from the fact that what they (the harassers) are doing and likely will do in the future is unequivocally wrong, making it so that we instead hope for a perfect world where things just don't get to the point of escalation instead of working with an imperfect world where, unfortunately, that escalation will happen and has, in this case, already happened. It similarly allows them to just crawl back into cognitive dissonance because to imply that whether they felt like they were attacked or not matters does imply that there's a situation where what they did would have been acceptable.

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Your reading of the situation is that there are harassers and the rest of us. That's wrong. People who engage in harassment are bred in the overblown nonsense that counts as discourse in the gaming space.

I am sick and tired of the desperate need to coddle the silly things that gamers get up in arms about. The EGS store debacle is just the latest iteration.

It is not that big a deal and the end result was eminently predictable based on previous behaviors. However, because we all have to protect the ego of the all powerful consumer masses this sort of tripe is allowed to become mainstream discourse.

I'm not accusing you of anything in particular. I appreciate that it gets heated and people say idiotic things. I do, however fully believe that the language we use in these situations makes a difference.

You saying you felt attacked by an incredibly mild statement from devs is a ridiculous overreaction in a long line of ridiculous overreactions in the gaming space. It contributes to an over riding feeling that what is going on here is serious and we need to speak about it seriously.

That all leads to some people feeling they have to do something or are justified in calling these deplorable scum developers exactly what they are.

I'm probably not helping by writing this, I'm just going to fire up more people. What is really needed is for people to realise this isn't important and if we can't agree to just let it be and go our separate ways.

 

[Cosmic Schwung]

I fundamentally don't understand why people who supposedly play games for enjoyment, leisure, and escapism are so prone to anger. Maybe it's a generational thing. Or just a human thing.

We all need to be less angry in general.

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It's fandom and human nature in general. It isn't always as simple as being pro/anti skub and there can be all sorts of underlying issues. It some instances, like some sports hooligans, it's just people looking for a fight under the pretense of being a fan. It certainly isn't a generational thing and I'm sure you can find examples throughout history. Here's one from 1849. Dozens dead and injured from a riot that was, on the surface, over a rivalry between a couple of actors.

 

[Supreme Leader Galahad]

Sad times when people start harassing others over unimportant subjects.

 

[TSM]

Your reading of the situation is that there are harassers and the rest of us. That's wrong. People who engage in harassment are bred in the overblown nonsense that counts as discourse in the gaming space.

I am sick and tired of the desperate need to coddle the silly things that gamers get up in arms about. The EGS store debacle is just the latest iteration.

It is not that big a deal and the end result was eminently predictable based on previous behaviors. However, because we all have to protect the ego of the all powerful consumer masses this sort of tripe is allowed to become mainstream discourse.

I'm not accusing you of anything in particular. I appreciate that it gets heated and people say idiotic things. I do, however fully believe that the language we use in these situations makes a difference.

You saying you felt attacked by an incredibly mild statement from devs is a ridiculous overreaction in a long line of ridiculous overreactions in the gaming space. It contributes to an over riding feeling that what is going on here is serious and we need to speak about it seriously.

That all leads to some people feeling they have to do something or are justified in calling these deplorable scum developers exactly what they are.

I'm probably not helping by writing this, I'm just going to fire up more people. What is really needed is for people to realise this isn't important and if we can't agree to just let it be and go our separate ways.

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A simpler way to get this across is to just point out "Sometimes it's not what you say. It's how you say it." If people toned down the hyperbole and over the top reactions for minor issues it would lead to a less toxic environment in general.

 

[rael_fitxr]

its just another games launcher

the outrage over this is blowing my mind

 

[Deleted member 1238]

Some context, the Ooblets devs were the target of online hate for their EGS exclusivity announcement:

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...ul-threatening-messages-over-epic-exclusivity

I checked out their Discord channel a few days ago to see how bad it got in there. What those screencaps of the developers being harsh don't show is that they were spending hours answering a flood of assholes who took the reaction to their blogpost as an excuse to harass them. With them often doing stuff like post racial slurs (spelled out in different messages to avoid filters). More waves of people came in as Youtubers like Jim Sterling and YongYea made videos about the exclusivity announcement.

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Wow

"This whole thing has just devastated us. We've been getting thousands if not tens of thousands of hateful, threatening messages across every possible platform nonstop. It's especially hurtful since we've had such a positive, supportive relationship with our audience throughout development."

"I have been crying nonstop for the last two days and feeling like the world has collapsed around me."

Imagine being a small indie dev and getting the financial security you've likely been stressing out over for the past several years only then to have a bunch of rabid fanboys harass you over a fucking launcher.

I'm done with this community. The toxicity towards this nonsense has been just as bad here as anywhere else. To say many you should all be embarrassed by that would be an understatement. I'm done with resetera. I'm done with online gaming communities as a whole. I don't want to be associated with these toxic man-babies anymore.

I feel so bad for these developers. No one deserves this type of hate. Unfortunately gaming enthusiasts are some of the most immature human beings alive. Platform wars are taken far too seriously. Make no mistake, that's what this is: platform wars. It has to stop. It's telling when these issues are just as bad here on resetera as they are on other sites like Reddit. That's when you know people are getting upset over nothing. It's fucking pathetic and I won't be a part of it anymore.

 

[nillansan]

its just another games launcher.

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It isn't, there is some very valid criticism that can be leveled at EGS (it does require you to cut through a lot of bullshit to be fair), this just isn't the place nor time.

the outrage over this is blowing my mind.

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Mine too, it's absolutely insane and disgusting.

 

[Jobbs]

I'm done with this community. The toxicity towards this nonsense has been just as bad here as anywhere else. To say many you should all be embarrassed by that would be an understatement. I'm done with resetera. I'm done with online gaming communities as a whole. I don't want to be associated with these toxic man-babies anymore.

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Sometimes I feel close to saying the same thing. Hopefully after this -- at least here on era -- things improve

 

[Plum]

Your reading of the situation is that there are harassers and the rest of us. That's wrong. People who engage in harassment are bred in the overblown nonsense that counts as discourse in the gaming space.

I am sick and tired of the desperate need to coddle the silly things that gamers get up in arms about. The EGS store debacle is just the latest iteration.

It is not that big a deal and the end result was eminently predictable based on previous behaviors. However, because we all have to protect the ego of the all powerful consumer masses this sort of tripe is allowed to become mainstream discourse.

I'm not accusing you of anything in particular. I appreciate that it gets heated and people say idiotic things. I do, however fully believe that the language we use in these situations makes a difference.

You saying you felt attacked by an incredibly mild statement from devs is a ridiculous overreaction in a long line of ridiculous overreactions in the gaming space. It contributes to an over riding feeling that what is going on here is serious and we need to speak about it seriously.

That all leads to some people feeling they have to do something or are justified in calling these deplorable scum developers exactly what they are.

I'm probably not helping by writing this, I'm just going to fire up more people. What is really needed is for people to realise this isn't important and if we can't agree to just let it be and go our separate ways.

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There are harassers, the rest of us, and those in between. Those in between definitely need to be called out, but I personally don't place myself in that category by calling what the developers said an "attack." To me an attack is simply a bout of criticism that is fierce, pointed and possibly laden with half-truths and hyperbole of its own; if I were to say that my issues with the post were simply a matter of 'the wrong tone' then I would be lying to myself. Similarly I never denied that language doesn't affect this, I was replying to a post saying that 'it wasn't an attack' and then said that it wasn't the answer, especially if it involves asking people to lie to themselves and reject their own emotions. Those people 'in between' who do use unnecessarily hyperbolic language (and 'attack' is not one of them imo, but the words you put into my mouth are for sure) definitely make things worse for everyone because, more often than not, they are in the position where that language goes out to a large enough platform that it can end up harming things.

Though the whole 'coddling' aspect is I guess where our views differ, because in my eyes (and from my experience) they are more coddled by the notion that if things had been different that they would have been 'justified' than from the language used by those on their own side. Look to the comments sections and you'll see many examples of people defending the harassment because they felt it was justified, and engaging those people by saying "no, it wasn't justified," moves the whole conversation on to their own terms. It's no longer about the shitty godawful thing they did but about whether or not EGS is bad or whether the developers were in the wrong.

If we can admit that they were angry, admit that they felt like they were attacked, and most importantly admit that those things are not the point, then I feel that all that will allow them to admit is that they were in the wrong.

 

[Unclebenny]

Sometimes I feel close to saying the same thing. Hopefully after this -- at least here on era -- things improve

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I don't hold out much hope. The fact that many people didn't see this coming, despite the language being exactly the same as GG just tells me that we didn't really learn much from that shitshow.

 

[Dr. Ludwig]

It's crazy to me that they're still blaming Steam on that one. Epic went and took a game out of Steam a few weeks before the game launched, after pre order had opened, Steam releases a brief statement to say they don't like it and somehow they're the bad guys? I can't believe they're implying that Valve is to blame for the toxic behaviours in this situation. It's like they're using this harrassing story to throw yet another dig at Steam when it barely relates to the matter at hand.

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It's Nathan Grayson so I'm not surprised. Like I so agree with the spirit of his message but he can't fuckin' help himself.

 

[Deleted member 15227]

I'm done with this community. The toxicity towards this nonsense has been just as bad here as anywhere else. To say many you should all be embarrassed by that would be an understatement. I'm done with resetera. I'm done with online gaming communities as a whole. I don't want to be associated with these toxic man-babies anymore.

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I've felt the same way. I've caught myself wondering about how could I be a part of a community where some people tear at and destroy the very people working hard to build the games for them to enjoy? I've said this before that when Resetera formed, I thought it would be far better and far more positive where everyone - fans and industry alike - were welcome; but it's just more of the same. Some of you really need a goddamn kick up the arse.

 

[Unclebenny]

There are harassers, the rest of us, and those in between. Those in between definitely need to be called out, but I personally don't place myself in that category by calling what the developers said an "attack." To me an attack is simply a bout of criticism that is fierce, pointed and possibly laden with half-truths and hyperbole of its own; if I were to say that my issues with the post were simply a matter of 'the wrong tone' then I would be lying to myself. Similarly I never denied that language doesn't affect this, I was replying to a post saying that 'it wasn't an attack' and then said that it wasn't the answer, especially if it involves asking people to lie to themselves and reject their own emotions. Those people 'in between' who do use unnecessarily hyperbolic language (and 'attack' is not one of them imo, but the words you put into my mouth are for sure) definitely make things worse for everyone because, more often than not, they are in the position where that language goes out to a large enough platform that it can end up harming things.

Though the whole 'coddling' aspect is I guess where our views differ, because in my eyes (and from my experience) they are more coddled by the notion that if things had been different that they would have been 'justified' than from the language used by those on their own side. Look to the comments sections and you'll see many examples of people defending the harassment because they felt it was justified, and engaging those people by saying "no, it wasn't justified," moves the whole conversation on to their own terms. It's no longer about the shitty godawful thing they did but about whether or not EGS is bad or whether the developers were in the wrong.

If we can admit that they were angry, admit that they felt like they were attacked, and most importantly admit that those things are not the point, then I feel that all that will allow them to admit is that they were in the wrong.

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I get what you're saying but my wider point is that by engaging with this subject as super serious, we are only elevating it to a level way beyond what is required.

Even if the EGS is the worst digital store front in the world, in the end, it is just a digital store front. We long went past the point where this became a rational discussion about some business deals. Where the worst outcome is people not being able to play games as soon as other people.

The fact we have reached harassment and racism isn't a surprise to me because there is precedent. This is what Gamers do. It is baked into our lexicon that we are the underdogs and constantly under attack. The use of language, even from those who would never dream of harassing anyone adds to the growing stream of bile that flows through these debates. Eventually someone gets in the way and gets hurt.

The Ooblets developers sparked this because they were treating it with exactly as much seriousness as it actually deserves, pretty much none. We all have to take some responsibility for the results, not just assume that we can wait for the harassers to return to normality.

You have to create a space where they understand that behavior will not be tolerated.

 

[MJForum Poster]

Your reading of the situation is that there are harassers and the rest of us. That's wrong. People who engage in harassment are bred in the overblown nonsense that counts as discourse in the gaming space.

I am sick and tired of the desperate need to coddle the silly things that gamers get up in arms about. The EGS store debacle is just the latest iteration.

It is not that big a deal and the end result was eminently predictable based on previous behaviors. However, because we all have to protect the ego of the all powerful consumer masses this sort of tripe is allowed to become mainstream discourse.

I'm not accusing you of anything in particular. I appreciate that it gets heated and people say idiotic things. I do, however fully believe that the language we use in these situations makes a difference.

You saying you felt attacked by an incredibly mild statement from devs is a ridiculous overreaction in a long line of ridiculous overreactions in the gaming space. It contributes to an over riding feeling that what is going on here is serious and we need to speak about it seriously.

That all leads to some people feeling they have to do something or are justified in calling these deplorable scum developers exactly what they are.

I'm probably not helping by writing this, I'm just going to fire up more people. What is really needed is for people to realise this isn't important and if we can't agree to just let it be and go our separate ways.

Click to shrink...

This is a great post. We need to start not tolerating this type of nonsense on Era. Another example that comes to mind is the fake controversy over AC Odyssey grinding last fall, where every single person who was playing the game said it wasn't a thing at all, only to be shouted down by pitchfork wielders desperate for their next dust-up.

They're electronic toys at the end of the day. If you're getting this bent out of shape over them, you need to step back and re-evaluate some things about yourself.

 

[ckareset]

This is a great post. We need to start not tolerating this type of nonsense on Era. Another example that comes to mind is the fake controversy over AC Odyssey grinding last fall, where every single person who was playing the game said it wasn't a thing at all, only to be shouted down by pitchfork wielders desperate for their next dust-up.

They're electronic toys at the end of the day. If you're getting this bent out of shape over them, you need to step back and re-evaluate some things about yourself.

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I played the game, it was a thing lol

 

[Airbar]

I played the game, it was a thing lol

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And some people from the press said as much.

 

[Kirbivore]

It's becoming increasingly frustrating to watch these interesting and niche games whose devs were most likely unsure of their potential sales moving over to EGS and getting harassed and threatened constantly. At the end of the day it's just a platform (even if it is lacking in some departments) and no one should be getting threatened for wanting to shine a bigger light on their game. It's also extremely frustrating watching some people (Both in and outside of ERA) go from "Oh boy Epic is making a Storefront" to "EGS is a disgusting cesspool of trash and no one should use it because [Reason #1/XXX]". No one should feel proud of themselves for spending day after day shitting on any game that gets a exclusivity deal there and haranguing people for even thinking of even clicking on the exe.

At the end of the day arguing and taking out pitchforks can only do so much before you start to lose your original goals.



Post-GG Internet has become a former shell of itself. I can't believe we got to the point where people would join a discord for a small game and tell the dev some of the horrible things posted on that medium article. It's the same issue with MP games and it's becoming infuriating to slowly lose interest in trying to play with other strangers and making friends due to the strings of asses you see continuously. There needs to be a bigger focus on policing internet Toxicity; not just from Game Devs, but places like Twitter & Discord Servers. People will only be as toxic as you let them be and it's about time that the leash was tightened on some of those people.

Thankfully with the removal of 8chan from the internet it seems like things are moving towards that goal, albeit in a slow pace.

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There's nothing post GG about this. This wouldve happened even if GG never happened. The same general anger and ways of venting frustration was already here in internet communities and it was never shaken off.

 

[Dr. Lucien Sanchez]

It's hard to see the effects or scope of what a massive mob of online harassment is doing to someone until you're on the receiving end of it. It's also really hard to realize when you're unwittingly part of a harassment group because you've been so convinced by the mob mentality that your anger and target are justified.

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Great response. Should have just assumed that the comments to it would be awful though.

Holy shit the response the husband and wife devs got. I read their original statement when they went exclusive and I thought it was pretty funny, some sarcasm along with some truths about why going exclusive made the most sense for them.

Shocking that some people took their fun statement as an attack.

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Yeah, I genuinely thought it was a pretty funny, light-hearted way of announcing the news.

I'm just not sure how so many of these horrible people posting these horrible things even function in society when that's their default reaction to something like that.

I hope we can ban phrases like "trash devs" "the devs are trash people" "fuck them" all together. No perceived condescending attitude and no decision about game publishing is worth that type of behavior and language. The original thread on this topic here on Era was full of this type of language and it's not okay. The whole thing is like a festering wound of toxicity and attitudes right here on era contribute to it.



I pointed out about 10 times in a row in that thread that there was a fuller context and the devs were obviously experienced sustained harassment, but no one was listening or having it. Instead, I had *my* game dragged up and attacked and suspicions cast on *me* just because I defended them. Here *clap* on *clap* era *clap*.

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I'm very much with you that it would be great to see all the 'trash devs' and other hyperbolic nonsense removed from discussion here. We'd be a better place for it.

 

[MJForum Poster]

And some people from the press said as much.

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There's plenty of threads here saying otherwise, but if that example doesn't satisfy you, pick another "controversy".

Spider-Man Puddle Gate.
Graphical "downgrades" for Witcher 3 and Watchdogs.
The Mass Effect 3 ending.
The Pokémon National Dex situation.

Even if there are graphical downgrades...even if the Mass Effect ending did suck (and it did)...even if you are disappointed in not having every Pokémon in the latest Pokémon game - the discourse should never reach where it goes today. My reaction to most of these "controversies" is always "Oh, that kind of sucks" and then I move on with my life to engage with another game or something else entirely. None of these things deserve prolonged whining and gnashing of teeth about, as all of the relevant news is well trodden ground a few days after it comes out.

To use the relevant topic at hand, we all know EGS is lacking a lot of Steams features. At this point, people are either comfortable buying games on it or not. So why do we need to keep rehashing the argument in every thread beyond fueling some sort of self-righteousness?

 

[Mistouze]

Gamers need to calm the fuck down. I totally get disagreeing with some decisions made in the industry but some of you should shut up and vote with your wallets instead of looking like damn fools getting angry about some petty stuff on the internet.

 

[Bradbury]

Reading this thread makes me fill dirty. I know to not expect anything from the GAMERS but even Era has been disgusting with anything related to EGS. I know it's frustrating but goddamn we need to be better as a community

 

[FSP]

I was - and am still a little - annoyed that a game I was looking forward to has moved to a different marketplace, but "we're just two devs and got moneyhatted" is a good reason to, even if I think it's ultimately bad for the game to not be on the store the vast majority of its potential buyers prefer.

I'm not sure how the treatment of the devs is remotely justified even by the most vitriolic people - game development is hard and this sort of compromise isn't uncommon. This compromise probably results in a better game, too, which is what people ultimately prefer.

 

[dock]

Has anyone compiled a list of reasons why Epic Game Store is such a bad thing?
So far the highlights seem to be these:

- people in Indonesia unable to buy the game without access to US currency
- concerns about Tencent and the Chinese Government (does this extend to Paradox, Riot, Ubisoft, Blizzard, etc?)
- no options for Mac and Linux gamers

Genuinely curious about all of the ways buying or selling via EGS hurts people or the games industry. We've had games exclusive to other storefronts since Windows 8.

 

[Pixieking]

Has anyone compiled a list of reasons why Epic Game Store is such a bad thing?
So far the highlights seem to be these:

- people in Indonesia unable to buy the game without access to US currency
- concerns about Tencent and the Chinese Government (does this extend to Paradox, Riot, Ubisoft, Blizzard, etc?)
- no options for Mac and Linux gamers

Genuinely curious about all of the ways buying or selling via EGS hurts people or the games industry. We've had games exclusive to other storefronts since Windows 8.

Click to shrink...

1) Pretty much every EGS thread has these kinds of lists. In addition, many indie devs have also noted how it's basically just rehashing the Steam Indie Boom of 10 years ago, right down to a heavily curated store picking winners. However,...
2) This is not the thread to ask this question, and it seems a little disingenuous for people (not just yourself) to repeatedly try to bring the thread around to this topic, since anyone who seriously answers would be accused of being toxic and/or hateful.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

https://www.pcinvasion.com/ooblets-the-story-so-far-whats-with-the-outrage-and-fake-screenshots/

This is a great in-depth article on this whole thing and really goes to show the lengths some people will go to justify their harassment.

What's been telling over the past week is that some people are more concerned and annoyed about how this hate campaign will cloud their ability to criticise EGS than what these devs have gone through.

 

[AshenOne]

Has anyone compiled a list of reasons why Epic Game Store is such a bad thing?
So far the highlights seem to be these:

- people in Indonesia unable to buy the game without access to US currency
- concerns about Tencent and the Chinese Government (does this extend to Paradox, Riot, Ubisoft, Blizzard, etc?)
- no options for Mac and Linux gamers

Genuinely curious about all of the ways buying or selling via EGS hurts people or the games industry. We've had games exclusive to other storefronts since Windows 8.

Click to shrink...

Yes. A PDF was and has been made for months, just for educating people who PC folks hate Epic's business practices.

A shorter version will be made for it to be more on point and concise if by chance some people think or dismiss just by looking at the no. of pages and think the link i replied you with, is too long lol.

 

[dock]

2) This is not the thread to ask this question, and it seems a little disingenuous for people (not just yourself) to repeatedly try to bring the thread around to this topic, since anyone who seriously answers would be accused of being toxic and/or hateful.

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My apologies, I really struggled to find legitimate criticism amidst the hyperbole. I do think its helpful to have a broader picture when choosing where to sell games, and I've often had to weigh the problematic behaviour associated with GOG, PAX, Steam, etc.

 

[Pixieking]

My apologies, I really struggled to find legitimate criticism amidst the hyperbole. I do think its helpful to have a broader picture when choosing where to sell games, and I've often had to weigh the problematic behaviour associated with GOG, PAX, Steam, etc.

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That's fair, and apologies if I came across a bit abrupt.

 

[Swenhir]

Has anyone compiled a list of reasons why Epic Game Store is such a bad thing?
So far the highlights seem to be these:

- people in Indonesia unable to buy the game without access to US currency
- concerns about Tencent and the Chinese Government (does this extend to Paradox, Riot, Ubisoft, Blizzard, etc?)
- no options for Mac and Linux gamers

Genuinely curious about all of the ways buying or selling via EGS hurts people or the games industry. We've had games exclusive to other storefronts since Windows 8.

Click to shrink...

There is indeed such a document.

My quick summary of my issues with Epic is that third party exclusivity and moneyhats on an open platforms are actively detrimental to everyone else in the long run. It creates a race to the bottom, one that incentivizes the worst possible criteria as the requirement for survival : having deep pockets. The least bad outcome is probably a Balkanization and downsizing of an ecosystem that was open and thriving.

Then, there's the way in which Epic has closed its deal and with the fashion in which many developers are decided to communicate such deals to their player-base, hurting player/developper relations and undermining trust in kickstarter in the short term.

 

[catswaller]

Even in this thread numerous people saying they felt "attacked" by the developers saying that they didn't want to sell their game on those posters terms is another sign era has a serious problem abt this kind of thing.

if it's ok to crosspost what I said in the other ooblets thread:

The ridiculous idea that individuals making a game (or even, honestly, big evil corporations making a game) have broken some kind of social contract and deserve your vitriol when they make a business decision to not give you a game you want, or not give it on your terms, absolutely enables the future behavior by more radical/antisocial members of the gaming community.

Steam has really great loyalty/lock in features so its totally cool to not want to leave it, or to whine when you can't get a game on it, but the fact that even this (relatively progressive/decent?) forum has an institution of hundred page threads calling developers greedy monsters when they decide to sell to epic is absolutely part of the problem.

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yall need to get ahold of yourselves if you think the developer is fighting against you or is the enemy when they say that they dont care about whatever specific consumer interest you have. That shit absolutely breeds the kind of more extreme hate you saw in the medium post.

 

[texhnolyze]

Has anyone compiled a list of reasons why Epic Game Store is such a bad thing?
So far the highlights seem to be these:

- people in Indonesia unable to buy the game without access to US currency
- concerns about Tencent and the Chinese Government (does this extend to Paradox, Riot, Ubisoft, Blizzard, etc?)
- no options for Mac and Linux gamers

Genuinely curious about all of the ways buying or selling via EGS hurts people or the games industry. We've had games exclusive to other storefronts since Windows 8.

Click to shrink...

You're probably thinking about Malaysia (related to that Discord message). But no, we can buy EGS games just fine from Indonesia as they provide a few partners for the payment method. They're priced with US$ instead of IDR though, so the prices will fluctuate a lot. Nothing major, but that's not the real problem of EGS store for a lot of people.

In case you haven't read the document posted above, there's one of the main major reasons why people don't like EGS exclusivity. It locks the games from 3rd party (legit) resellers, which means that there's only one price which is the one posted in EGS. With non-EGS games (not only Steam, but also GOG, Origin, etc), you can find alternative stores to get them for cheaper. You can usually get a AAA game at launch or even pre-order it under $60. EGS disables that completely. People like to accuse Steam of monopoly while cheering for EGS, even though EGS is doing exactly that, monopoly.

 

[dock]

Yes. A PDF was and has been made for months,

Click to shrink...

Thanks, this is helpful, and I appreciate tgat it represents some of the problems that devs face with Steam.

It does leave me still quite perplexed by such strong reactions from players, especially as I've bought plenty of PC games and software from other stores.

 

[dock]

You're probably thinking about Malaysia (related to that Discord message). But no, we can buy EGS games just fine from Indonesia as they provide a few partners for the payment method. They're priced with US$ instead of IDR though, so the prices will fluctuate a lot. Nothing major, but that's not the real problem of EGS store for a lot of people.

Click to shrink...

That's good to know!! The reason I mentioned Indonesia was because of a user on Twitter insisted they were unable to buy from EGS with their currency, but perhaps their location was wrong.

Third party resellers should be a great idea, it's just a shame key resale is so heavily abused by shady companies. I would love EGS to open itself to legitimate key resale with limitations and logging to prevent abuse.

 

[AshenOne]

Thanks, this is helpful, and I appreciate tgat it represents some of the problems that devs face with Steam.

It does leave me still quite perplexed by such strong reactions from players, especially as I've bought plenty of PC games and software from other stores.

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When it comes to strong reactions, IMO they are certainly justified and iam totally not talking about the people encouraging or getting involved in disgusting behavior such as harassment or death threats but people who have strong criticism of Epic's practices and their exclusivity deals. To a lot of the PC users, it clearly seems that Epic is poisoning the well with a lot of things that have no precedent in the PC ecosystem and even if they do set a new precedent, its a VERY dangerous one, one that largely encourages segregation and people have to use many storfronts/launchers/clients just to buy/install/play a PC game, not to mention how in a rush, Epic's EGS launcher was brought out just to capitalize on the exclusive deals rather than focusing on the meat and crux of the matter when it comes making a stand against steam competitively which is through introducing equal or more features than what steam offers and at the same time offer better features to developers also, instead of just showering them with bags of money.

Epic were currently in the PC space, the only company that could give valve a run for their money with their cash deposits(lol) and their experience in the PC ecosystem in the past but they muddled any good faith they gave the PC community years ago with this exclusive nonsense and with such an inferior platform known as EGS. They are even missing monthly targets set for the improvement of EGS all of which should've been introduced at launch months ago when it launched lol. Even Origin, uPlay launched in a much much better state than the EGS with none of those 3rd party titles exclusive nonsense and only had their own titles on it.

 

[Deleted member 42]

We are in a thread about a dev getting thousands of death threats and insults

And we're already back to the same song and dance as before.

 

[water_wendi]

Yes. A PDF was and has been made for months, just for educating people who PC folks hate Epic's business practices.

A shorter version will be made for it to be more on point and concise if by chance some people think or dismiss just by looking at the no. of pages and think the link i replied you with, is too long lol.

Click to shrink...

You can have a 100-paged sourced document complete with testimonials and interviews on why you think, reason, and/or feel EGS is horrible but the reality is this. It doesnt matter how right you are its not your decision. How and when and why devs choose to release their game is their decision and nobody elses. If they decided to just cancel development and not release at all, thats completely within their right. If they want to port it to Ngage, they can go ahead and do it.

And i think we need to make a clear distinction about the situation thats unfolded the last few days. Its not "gamers" doing this harassment. i was in the Discord and watched shit unfold in real time. People didnt flood their channel and harass the devs because Ooblets wasnt coming for Switch or PS4.