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Engadget(video): ‘Half-Life: Alyx’ shows Valve’s bad attitude
- Thread starter AshenOne
- Start date
I think it's more that people expect a development studio to keep developing content they like - more than like, content they think it's important and culturally significant. Steam is good and all, but their entertainment output is the thing that matters and it's what they should prioritize. I get that. Even though it's simplistic
It's such a take. The whole video doesn't really feel like it has a meaningful core. The adjective "bad" keeps being used... "Bad attitude"... Like what?
But the thing is that Valve's "entertainment output" has been considerable.
Since Ep2 they've released:
Two Left 4 Deads
Portal 2
CSGO
Dota 2
Artifact
Dota Underlords
Alyx
That's 8 games in 13 years (and I'm not counting a few smaller projects). Games that they've supported consistently (with the exception of Artifact, which is being rebooted, I think). Far from a bad number, considering that they've also done a lot of stuff for VR, Linux gaming, made their own hardware, etc.
Yeah, but everything after Portal 2 isn't on console, so it doesn't count for "real gamers"
/s
They also released the criminally overlooked Alien Swarm. Also The Lab.
Feels dishonest rather than stupid tbh. For example she says people praise valve for releasing a HL VR game, and posts screenshots of a few comments supporting that... Except those screenshots are clearly from a discussion over whether or not valve suck for releasing HL as VR only, and she just pretends the other side of that debate doesn't exist? I mean we've all seen posts complaining about that, there's just no way this video (or at the very least this point) was made in good faith.
But hey, "if people don't like the video that just proves my point lololol", can't argue with that logic...
But hey, "if people don't like the video that just proves my point lololol", can't argue with that logic...
I mean... There are things Valve have done that are anti-consumer, particularly in their approach to moderation of hateful content. But she barely mentions that point, I think I heard it in a list of stuff that she didn't elaborate on. The topics she actually spends 95% of the video talking about are nonsense.
It's totally possible to have a conversation about Valve's anti-consumer practices, but this ain't it.
Yea I agree, I just watched the whole video, what exactly did she say that is not true? Y'all acting exactly like what she described.
She's misinformed about some things and flat-out lying about others. See below:
MS has done that to a certain extent. Full backwards compatibility is basically impossible without introducing emulation errors or building the hardware into the consoles like the PS3.
She says In The Valley of Gods was cancelled while the screen grab in the video, as she's saying it, says it's just put on hold. She claims increased developer cut is the new standard based solely on Epic and Discord decreasing their cut.
Why bother lying like that? I mean, proof of the first point being bullshit is in the video itself haha!
I actually don't remember exactly when I stopped checking engadget, but it is good to see that they are desperate.
I think my favorite part of the video is referring to one company taking an 88% cut (nevermind they're only able to do so thanks to their boatloads of Fortnite cash), and ONE other store adopting a similar model as "a new standard."
EDIT: It's also funny how the "Valve is anti-consumer" crowd never remember Proton's a thing. A thing that's making thousands of games no longer exclusive to a single OS...for FREE.
EDIT: It's also funny how the "Valve is anti-consumer" crowd never remember Proton's a thing. A thing that's making thousands of games no longer exclusive to a single OS...for FREE.
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Also i want to add on what others already said. The worst part of this video is the fact that steam does have problems but "nobody" is taking the time to address them.
Just from my experience, underlined those that I wish were the main focus in the media:
- Certain DRMs can kill an old game such as securom and denuvo (these should be mandate to be removed after X amount of time)
- Refund policy of only 2h is unhelpful for certain genres like strategy titles. For example can you play crusader kings 2 for 2h before knowing if you like it?
- Discoverability. with 1000s of games in steam there is still not a very good way to discover games. Yes steam algorithms are relatively good but IMO it still is easier to google search a genre then using steam store discoverability tools
- Accessories such as wheels don't have a steam controller support like feature making them a PITA to use
- no used games/reselling games between users
- Forum moderation is mostly done by devs as such forums are almost guarantee to be toxic
- Steam allows devs to remove features from bought games. look at GTA san andreas
- Library UI and other UIs are very uncustomizable.
- Steam market allows to a certain extant gambling.
- There is no way to access previous versions of the game. If the latest update of a game broke your mod or it isn't working you are at the mercy of dev allowing a beta of the old version (not true, here is a away)
- Patch notes are not obligatory for any update
- Allowing DRM In DRM. Is there any need for AC and anno to launch uplay?
- several tags and dev filters are not "correct". For example one piece warriors 4 launched today and has SP and online PVP filter. It has local and online co-op yet it is not stated as such
- A lot of games when updating need to make a copy of themselves. This is not shown well in the download UI at all
- When installing steam in a new PC you can't click to re-install your library from the last log in (essentially an automatic backup)
- Forcing devs to have save files in a good location. needing to go to appdata is a PITA.
- Full controller support VS parcial controller support is too simple. A parcial controller support may go from a game that has a launcher that needs to be clicked to a game that only allows a controller in certain sections
- IMo steam store leaves a lot of blank space in "higher" resolutions such as 1440p
- Allow a way to know if a key is used or not. With the amount of bundles going on its very easy to lose track of activated keys
- Obligatory game updates
[edit] my post due to a comment from eoden showing there is a very roundabout way to get the older version of a steam game.
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There are lots of cases to be made against Valve for anticonsumer practices, and from your post I kept the ones that actually meet the definition of 'opposing consumer'. The court cases in the EU and Australia over pricing, region locking, refunds for instance. Those are anticonsumer issues because they're actually stopping users from accessing content in the manner they are legally meant to be accessed. The points I removed from your post and the points made in the video are not examples of these kinds of actions. They are frustrations you have with how Steam itself functions - but do not in and of themselves prevent you from using steam or accessing its content or as in the video's case, feelings of entitlement to continued content updates for old games and a say in the games the studio develops. It isn't anticonsumer not to appease your fan base.
"Laughably anti-consumer". Few examples of that:
- They introduce in the PC market the concept of owning working copies of the same game across different operating systems with no additional charge (Steamplay. Of course the devs/publishers need to be on board with that, but still).
- Invested heavily on development and support of Linux and other open source realities that developers and users can benefit from even outside of the Steamworks environment.
- Arguably the only company around that worked their ass off to make their system MORE AND MORE OPEN as they gained market share, to the point that developers willing to make use of them can rely on the entirety of the Steamworks infrastructure even for copies of their software that are NOT tied to the Steam client (as long as they ALSO release a game on Steam). That's basically what's allowing initiatives like "GoG connect" that can give you a Steam copy of your GoG games for no additional charge, just to mention one example. Or even more relevantly the entire grey market of key resellers to exist.
- Started working on and introduced API for cross-platform multiplayer before some other companies even started talking about it.
- Forums, guides, workshop, streaming, vocal chat, the most versatile API for controller support on the PC scene and a lot more, none of which comes with subscriptions models, premium or what else.
What a shitty company. They surely did their customer dirty. Or something.
It's not like they didn't have their fair share of missteps (still not too fond of their vaguely exploitative F2P monetization models, even if it's still gold compared to other F2P realities) but the level of ridiculous hyperbole some of you can touch is embarrassing.
i'll disagree. I'd say the following still is anti-costumer:
- Discoverability/Full controller support VS parcial controller support/several tags and dev filters are not "correct".
- Steam market allows to a certain extent gambling.
- Library UI and other UIs are very uncustomizable.
- Allow a way to know if a key is used or not.
- Obligatory game updates
- Accessories
1) Steam store should be trustworthy. By having tags/filters not correct as well as filters that are too broad to be useful make the purchasing something very uninformative. I as a costumer shouldn't need to open another website to confirm that the product i'm buying does have the features i have.
2) I'd say allowing tools that allow gambling outside the game is borderline anti-costumer since it keeps its users forced to use a lot of money to acquire what they want. Perhaps instead of anti-costumer it should be referred to illegal?
3) so in your opinion if i have vision problems such as colorblind or low contrast vision I should accept that steam client/store are fine? even augmented steam allows for changing colors to the steam store.Alongside this you have several other non health related reasons from preference to having weird setups. IMO not giving the costumer some way to customize the UI not only pushes everyone that isn't "mainstream" away but can also make interaction harder.
4) I still think that the costumer shouldn't be forced to know if the steam key he bought 3 months ago is valid or not.
5) I don't understand how you keep no accessing older versions but skip this one. So right now i'm playing cities skylines new DLC. lets say that i'm traveling tomorow for the weekend so i won't have internet with enough data caps to donwload. If tomorrow a patch is released for cities skylines i can't play the game for the weekend. I'm 100% sure this fits into "topping users from accessing content in the manner they are legally meant to be"
6) I shouldn't have to rely on other people to know if my accessory works in X game. let's say i want to play GTA with my t300 wheel. I don't know if that is possible without trying and possibly needing to use 3rd party software. if steam offered a standard I'd know more or less what i expect. While my example is hyperbolic by choice the truth is if you go to most racing and flight games its rare to find the list of supported accessories in the steam store. Would you be fine if games didn't show their requirements? if they need a VR headset or not?
I could see your argument for
- Patch notes are not obligatory for any update
- IMo steam store leaves a lot of blank space in "higher" resolutions such as 1440p
- A lot of games when updating need to make a copy of themselves.
- When installing steam in a new PC you can't click to re-install your library from the last log in (essentially an automatic backup)
- Forcing devs to have save files in a good location. needing to go to appdata is a PITA.
But those can cause anticostumer bullshit. For example let's say you want to backup the savegames in your PC into an SD card so you can format your PC to upgrade to the next windows. Well too bad you either need to manually search for the save file of every single game (including hidden directories like appdata) or use a 3rd party software. If you don't have internet for that, too bad it will take working weeks to find the files. I HIGHLY disagree that all that effort so that i can play in "another" hardware isn't anti-costumer.
IMO when you say " but do not in and of themselves prevent you from using steam or accessing its content " you are being very reductive of what anti-costumer can mean. IMO leaving a feature that makes it obtuse to be able to do something that is essentially is anti-costumer as well yet it still allows you to use the product.
You saying i'm entitled because i consider problems above important to discuss is just being unfair and ignoring issues that exist. Just because those issues are not big enough as the others doesn't make them less worthwhile to discuss.
Basically, what I'm gathering from some of the posts in this thread: "Every minor flaw I don't like is ANTI-CONSUMER".
Even just having an UI with limited customization options (somehow in contrast with the competition that offers virtually NO customization options)
Even just having an UI with limited customization options (somehow in contrast with the competition that offers virtually NO customization options)
Being better than the competition in most every respect, but not perfect is very anti-consumer.
You do not know what anti-consumer means. Those are user experience or QOL upgrades that would be welcome, but are not anti-consumer in the least. "You are being very reductive of what anti-costumer can mean" - no, words have meanings and you should know them before using terms you do not understand.
Yep this video is bad. Valve doesn't make the games we want so anti consumer? Lol If you disagree you're a valve drone? Anti consumer needs to go the way of ludonarrative dissonance because clearly lamen don't know what it means.
What a trash take. Company not making a game we want so it is anti consumerism.
Is Engadget the same as Verge ? They seem intellectual because they have great production values in their vids.
Is Engadget the same as Verge ? They seem intellectual because they have great production values in their vids.
Awful. The lengths some people go to to justify their hatred of Valve, and why? All the complaints I've heard about them have been either no worse than anyone else (the margin they take, like every other store, while simultaneously ignoring the sliding margin scale) or petty incomparable stuff from the past ("the sales aren't as good as they used to be!").
Laughable bullshit.
And Jim Sterling can scream all he wants about his dreaded "asset flips" that no one buys and that are almost invisible from the front page.
The quoted post on the top of the page explain the whole mindset very well. Its perception gained from the lack of familiarity.
And also......holy mother of fcuk people dont know what anti consumer even means anymore.
As mentioned by sheaaaa, those are QOL features/improvements that could be made but do not prevent you or oppose you from using Steam or the content you've purchased on it (or are attempting to purchase as the case may be). To not implement them is maybe not the most user friendly, but are not anti-consumer, by definition. Does the fact that you can do none of those things on any other platform or console also mean all other DD storefronts and platforms are anti-consumer as well in your view?
Uh... "I don't like it" isn't even a valid refund reason in a country like Australia which has very pro consumer refund rules.
- Discoverability is being worked on all the time right now with their experimental discovery tools
- I can't think of a worse thing to introduce than a digital second hand market. How it is right now is fine. If someone plays the game, they pay the publisher/developer of that game. If you think it's too expensive, wait for the *inevitable* sale, of which there will be plenty. All it takes is some patience.
- There *is* a way to access previous versions of the game, it just requires the dev to make use of the beta branches. There's quite a few who do.
- You want Steam to *force* devs to use a specific path for save files? (Appdata tip, you can easily get there with Run -> %appdata%)
- Where's the issue here? Use it and you'll find out. Unless you're talking about trading/selling which there's no reason for Steam to support and if that's something you do you really should just keep proper track of it.
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I have marked in red the biggest problems, with which I agree. The rest is of relatively little importance, consumer-wise.
I used to be very critical of Valve. Not because they stopped making AAA games (that's their business, plenty of other great devs out there to keep me occupied) but because of their 30% fee for devs which I felt was keeping prices artificially high for customers.
When I realized that most games can be purchased at a 20% discount from 3rd vendors, my attitude changed. When they started doing the lord's work investing in VR and even creating the Index and lighthouse tracking, they fully redeemed themselves in my eyes.
*and before someone tells me reselling games on steam is not feasible because used digital games never break from wear and tear, and it would ruin devs, I tell you this:
I am quite happy to pay the devs a cut of every used game I sell on Steam. How about they take a 30% cut of my sales? <--- this shit must be figured out or it will be figured out for them. Right of resale must cross into digital at some point.
2 hour trial is nonsense. make it 10% of the game or 24 hours, whichever comes first.
And I highly doubt anyone would disagree with being able to downgrade their own singleplayer games.
Here's the thing, are these things even an inconvenience?
The other way around..
That is the interpretation of the word for a while now in many communities. It really hurts the true meaning of the word. People watering it down with all those overreactions, when people are disappointed with a product or a company. People, like the guy from the video, tries to give his personal criticism more meaning by labeling it "Anti-Consumer".
Valve is not perfect - of course they are not.
Their worst quality is their communication. They work on many fronts all the time, but we won't know until they are finished with something.
Steam is constantly being worked on and improved. Since launch they have made it a beacon of pro consumer decisions that the biggest players in the industry failed to live up to at this point.
No questions asked return of a bought and played game? No problem.
Getting stuff through playing the game and then sell that for real money? Yep.
Cross platform multiplayer? It's been in there since the PS3 days and..
Cross platform buying - also possible since PS3 and portal 2 with Valve.
Yes, they stopped releasing new games for a while and concentrated on building their VR platform - but they are turning out games again and they are still amazing at it.
They had their first hard misstep in Artifact and are working towards correcting that in the future.
They didn't engage in a exclusively war with epic when they started buying timed exclusives left and right.
So why can we not enjoy or dislike Valve for the facts that are out? And not throwing around baseless comparisons.
Feel free to not like Valve, you don't have to like their games, store or hardware - but at least keep your facts straight about it.
Their worst quality is their communication. They work on many fronts all the time, but we won't know until they are finished with something.
Steam is constantly being worked on and improved. Since launch they have made it a beacon of pro consumer decisions that the biggest players in the industry failed to live up to at this point.
No questions asked return of a bought and played game? No problem.
Getting stuff through playing the game and then sell that for real money? Yep.
Cross platform multiplayer? It's been in there since the PS3 days and..
Cross platform buying - also possible since PS3 and portal 2 with Valve.
Yes, they stopped releasing new games for a while and concentrated on building their VR platform - but they are turning out games again and they are still amazing at it.
They had their first hard misstep in Artifact and are working towards correcting that in the future.
They didn't engage in a exclusively war with epic when they started buying timed exclusives left and right.
So why can we not enjoy or dislike Valve for the facts that are out? And not throwing around baseless comparisons.
Feel free to not like Valve, you don't have to like their games, store or hardware - but at least keep your facts straight about it.
You can access previous versions of the game through console commands:
Reddit - Dive into anything
www.reddit.com
Sounds like a deflection of criticism to "they're just Valve fanboys" to me
I quite like the argument "if people disagree with me it proves I'm right", seems like a great way to never be wrong.
I will go as far as to say it's the perfect sentence and people should live by it, and if people disagree with me, well it pretty much proves my point.
Remember "Sony is anti consumer because they make exclusives and force me to buy a PlayStation"?
I wonder the people behind this video had meltdowns when sony titles were rumoured/confirmed to come to PC? It's the same line of thinking really.