It's interesting you think this, because Jordan was a Vietnam vet. I thought his portrayal of PTSD to be one of the better ones, especially in the genre.
People criticize stuff for happening off screen:
Mat killing Couladin for instance
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End of GoT left you unsatisfied? Check out the Wheel of Time, a legendary 15 book fantasy series
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It's interesting you think this, because Jordan was a Vietnam vet. I thought his portrayal of PTSD to be one of the better ones, especially in the genre.
People criticize stuff for happening off screen:
Acting like a child in response to a book not hand feeding you every piece of information and going on about unusual names in a scifi story isn't exactly a glowing endorsement of your literary insight.
Wow that's....that's brilliant. Well said lol.
His Stormlight Archive is pretty great, and last summer I did a complete read of all his Cosmere stuff, and a lot of it was just...fine. Had to force myself to finish the Mistborn trilogy and I had to read a wiki summar of Elantris because I just couldn't do it.
Something to note, if you start reading WoT and think it starts out slow or gets weird (I personally don't see the slowness but I've read a few people with that opinion), realize that the first *three* books tell the story of what Robert Jordan originally planned as being the first book in the series. He always severely underestimated how much writing it would take to get the story to where he wanted (he also thought there was only one book left after he passed away, but it took three to get through the ending in his notes). So try and push through to the end of the third book at least, as that's the true end of the series intro.
You didn't. More like I just know that your literary criticisms aren't worth taking seriously.
As a teenager, I had a lot of fun reading the Wheel of Time, with the exception of the turgid books ten and eleven. But I'm not sure I could recommend it for adults, especially an adult who's coming off ASOIAF. The storytelling is much more simplistic and manichean, more juvenile. I do think the TV series will be interesting, though, assuming they're able to trim a lot of the fat out of the books (no skirt smoothing!).
Comparing the WoT to GoT is asinine as both books are trying to go for two completely different narratives despite both being "fantasy"
I got through the first 6 books before stopping because it was just too much. The closest thing to GoT is the Witcher books because they have a lot of moral ambiguity and a lot of political stuff going on, but even then, the comparisons are pretty weak imo.
I got through the first 6 books before stopping because it was just too much. The closest thing to GoT is the Witcher books because they have a lot of moral ambiguity and a lot of political stuff going on, but even then, the comparisons are pretty weak imo.
I've always meant to check these out, but the greater focus on fantasy than politics seems like I'll like them a lot less.
don't forget the lip pursing and the crossing of arms under breasts
oh shit I also forgot about the braid tugging, how could I forget the braid tugging
That's good to know. I'm a bit into the part where
he's constantly talking about how he's so much smarter than his mom know, and I just needed to walk away for a bit.
I'm mostly on team "The hate for book 2 is exaggerated", but I haven't gotten back to the Felurian stuff yet.
I'm pretty surprised by this thread. As someone with little knowledge of the fantasy novel landscape, I thought WoT was widely loved.
I've been listening to the the audiobooks of this series on my commute and I've really enjoyed it for the most part. I just finished book 9 yesterday.
While i agree with many of the criticisms, I still have really enjoyed the journey so far. I really like a majority of the cast and I'm deeply invested in seeing the resolution to many of these plot threads. It can get slow and plodding, but the highs are really dang high. The climactic moments of each book have been exciting and memorable every time.
I know it's not fair to compare, but I've only watched the GoT show until about season 4 and dropped it. I don't have many nice things to say about it so at this point I do prefer WoT to GoT.
I've been listening to the the audiobooks of this series on my commute and I've really enjoyed it for the most part. I just finished book 9 yesterday.
While i agree with many of the criticisms, I still have really enjoyed the journey so far. I really like a majority of the cast and I'm deeply invested in seeing the resolution to many of these plot threads. It can get slow and plodding, but the highs are really dang high. The climactic moments of each book have been exciting and memorable every time.
I know it's not fair to compare, but I've only watched the GoT show until about season 4 and dropped it. I don't have many nice things to say about it so at this point I do prefer WoT to GoT.
What kind of horseshit is this? If you don't want to converse then why did you even bother with your vapid "criticism" in the first place?
And note: When a story starts by giving you weird terms that you don't understand and then the main character remarks that they too do not understand them, maybe, just maybe, that is intentional.
The first Wheel of Time book, "The Eye of the World" is fantastic and can be read as a standalone novel. The end will leave you wanting more, but if you think about it, you'll realize that the last sentence basically tells you everything you need to know.
I wouldn't recommend the whole series to anyone though. The last three books, written by a different author, are also fantastic, but you have to wade through far too much crap to get there.
The short story called New Spring (note, not the novel by the same name, the original was published in a collection called "Legends") is also very good.
I wouldn't recommend the whole series to anyone though. The last three books, written by a different author, are also fantastic, but you have to wade through far too much crap to get there.
The short story called New Spring (note, not the novel by the same name, the original was published in a collection called "Legends") is also very good.
It is. As with all popular media it has it's share of people who love and hate it. This is magnified on enthusiast web forums like era.
Kinda same(ish) here. I didn't quit reading because of it (got busy with school and now need to re-read because it's been so long) but some of the characters throw me off. Actually, it is really one: forgot her name, but she is like the mother of the group from Rand's village and is the oldest. She always says annoying things like "I'm gonna box your ears" and is madly in love with this knight that guards this witch but she hates the witch for almost no reason besides he swore an oath to protect the witch and she hates his attention is on her (duty bound). Literally she hates her just for that and to the point she thinks about killing her i think? yeah, that's the main gripe and it is really annoying. also, rand's love interest from the village and throughout is annoying.
dangitt. yeah, i can see that. i stopped about midway through the third book because reasons listed above. but the entire time, i kept asking my friend who recommended the series to me "does this actually stay good through another 13 books???" Heck, the end of the first book even read like it was the end of the series lol.
still i'm gonna try to read it all through. i like the world and the characters (except the one i mentioned, she is the worst). the plot is really good and enthralling.
edit: also looking forward for Rand to go super jesus in future novels lol.
I keep hearing, online and in person, how great the Malazan series is but I can't even make it past Gardens of the Moon. I have tried both ebook and audiobook.
I have absolutely loved the Wheel of Time ever since I first read Eye of the World in 1996. I fell away from the series when I went to college, while waiting for book 8 to come out. After years of not reading at all, I finally got the determination to re-read and finish the series a year ago, and was REALLY pleased with how it ended. Are some of the middle books (6-10) quite meandering? Yes, but the series is fantastic as a whole, and introduced me to Sanderson (which was worth it alone). I have since read everything by him and have loved every minute. I can't wait for the show; I just hope they do it justice.
Except that person is wrong as has been mentioned in this thread already, and obviously hasn't read the books in a long time and has things exaggerated in his head. As someone else already mentioned, book 11 (Knife of Dreams), one of the best books in the series, is ALL forward-moving plot. There are only two books where not a lot happens, and those books are quite a bit better when you can read them back to back, compared to first release when you had to wait years for a book and then the entire book covered only two weeks of time. The books the person talks about as "mediocre" just means that person didn't like the warrior society that those books deal with.
For me (a random guy on the Internet), Wheel of Time is one of those series where those who are getting into fantasy need to at least try as its kind of a foundational series for me. There are definitely some issues with the series and it won't be for everyone but overall I think its a worthwhile time investment. There is probably a preferred reading guide out there that would help you to skip some of the more problem issues in the middle-middle late books that would probably help your reading experience.
I have stanned it in other threads and will continue to stan in here, please read Malazan. If you fall in love with it like I did you can also dip into Esslemont's books (I don't think he's as good of a writer as Erikson but I found his books entertaining still) which will give you more of the world. They are not essential in any way to the main series but they do show you what else is going on at the same time. Malazan is truly an epic fantasy story, so many interesting characters and locations and events
Also highly recommended seconds from what I have seen mentioned already:
Mistborn & Stormlight Archive - For me Sanderson's books are just highly entertaining, they are a summer blockbuster movie. Yes his characters might not be as deep as you find elsewhere but I don't mind that too much but I think he does book climaxes just about better than anyone else I read.
First Law & associated standalone books - These are more gritty in the way of ASOIAF, all of the characters are interesting but most really aren't that super likable. I think his one offs following the trilogy are a bit better but its all good reading.
Dresden Files - These are often my palette cleaners, just good fun books to get lost in. He has apparently had some issues with the newest book and its been awhile but a lot is already out there and its just good dumb fun.
I'm neutral on Mark Lawrence's books. I really enjoy his writing and he builds interesting worlds I just really don't give a damn about any of his characters and makes it really hard to get into the books that way. Also neutral on the Gentleman Bastards books. The first one is great (and can act as a standalone) but the next two are just ok and who knows when the rest will come out.
I can't really recommend Farseer and Lightbringer. For Farseer I loved the first book and I thought the rest of the series fell off a cliff after that (I felt a similar thing with Liveship and bailed early). Lightbringer has a decent first book, really good second and third books, and a really bad fourth book that put me off the series.
I have stanned it in other threads and will continue to stan in here, please read Malazan. If you fall in love with it like I did you can also dip into Esslemont's books (I don't think he's as good of a writer as Erikson but I found his books entertaining still) which will give you more of the world. They are not essential in any way to the main series but they do show you what else is going on at the same time. Malazan is truly an epic fantasy story, so many interesting characters and locations and events
Also highly recommended seconds from what I have seen mentioned already:
Mistborn & Stormlight Archive - For me Sanderson's books are just highly entertaining, they are a summer blockbuster movie. Yes his characters might not be as deep as you find elsewhere but I don't mind that too much but I think he does book climaxes just about better than anyone else I read.
First Law & associated standalone books - These are more gritty in the way of ASOIAF, all of the characters are interesting but most really aren't that super likable. I think his one offs following the trilogy are a bit better but its all good reading.
Dresden Files - These are often my palette cleaners, just good fun books to get lost in. He has apparently had some issues with the newest book and its been awhile but a lot is already out there and its just good dumb fun.
I'm neutral on Mark Lawrence's books. I really enjoy his writing and he builds interesting worlds I just really don't give a damn about any of his characters and makes it really hard to get into the books that way. Also neutral on the Gentleman Bastards books. The first one is great (and can act as a standalone) but the next two are just ok and who knows when the rest will come out.
I can't really recommend Farseer and Lightbringer. For Farseer I loved the first book and I thought the rest of the series fell off a cliff after that (I felt a similar thing with Liveship and bailed early). Lightbringer has a decent first book, really good second and third books, and a really bad fourth book that put me off the series.
Its almost ironic reading a recommendation for Wheel of time in the context of the GoT ending being a rushed disappointment, as many WoT fans view Brandon's Sandersons WoT ending as being rushed and disappointing.
Personal recommendations would be the Kingkiller Chronicles or the Gentlemen Bastards trilogy
Personal recommendations would be the Kingkiller Chronicles or the Gentlemen Bastards trilogy
Really? Didn't he extend the final (12th) book into three books? That doesn't sound like rushing.
And others view them as exactly the right way to end a fantasy series!
I suppose I can understand how someone who enjoyed the plodding pace of Crossroads of Twilight would find A Memory of Light too fast. But, like, um... I don't know how to put this other then, I think those people are crazy!
He did, but the pace is still much faster than the proceeding books (though notably, it's also slower Jordan's The Eye of the World.)
We'll never know, but IMO, had Robert Jordan lived there is no way in hell he would have written only one more book. There is far too much that had to happen. A Memory of Light would have been turned into six novels at minimum.
Honestly, I greatly respect what Sanderson did. Poor guy was hired to write one book, but realized that would have made for a crappy ending, and then churned out three at what was apparently a hell-ish pace in order to meet deadlines and fan expectations. And he produced three fantastic novels at the end of it all.
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Jordan said he planned on it being one last book, just because he couldn't think of any good places to break up the story. He said he'd publish a bible-sized tome if he had to. Sanderson however did a good job of breaking it into three stories, by doing things like breaking the prologue into three parts and having part of it in each book.
He originally planned for WoT to be 3 books and it turned into 14 so that should give you a good idea of how quickly has plans got out of control
Sanderson's Stormlight Archive is the closest any story has felt to Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones) in terms of well-paced and methodical character development peppered with great major moments. The main difference being that Sanderson indulges in a lot more magic and his world is a bit less cruel to his main characters (though they still go through some shit).
Mistborn is also a great fantasy trilogy and one of the most unique I've encountered in a while.
Rothfuss's Kingkiller books are incredible at painting a fantasy story in the most personal way I've ever seen a fantasy delivered. It's just a person's life, but with intrigue and action at key parts. It veers a little Mary-Sue at times, but otherwise is great.
Wheel of Time has always intrigued me but I've been warned off it so often because of how it supposedly slows down to a grinding pace.
Mistborn is also a great fantasy trilogy and one of the most unique I've encountered in a while.
Rothfuss's Kingkiller books are incredible at painting a fantasy story in the most personal way I've ever seen a fantasy delivered. It's just a person's life, but with intrigue and action at key parts. It veers a little Mary-Sue at times, but otherwise is great.
Wheel of Time has always intrigued me but I've been warned off it so often because of how it supposedly slows down to a grinding pace.
Yeah, I haven't heard of fans being dissatisfied with the pace of the ending. I mean, the series had gone on far too long as it was, that was one of the major issues when Jordan was still writing it. The books were proceeding at a glacial tempo and Jordan's editor (his wife) seemed to be doing next to nothing to reign in those tendencies. I was so glad when those final three books started coming out and were released fairly quickly.
i have all the wheel books and got to about book 8 or 9 before stopping,it can be such a slog to get through since the author kept going into so much detail about what people a wearing,just keep it vague and let my imagination take over.i found my self disengaging for those parts and coming back for the plot.
i keep meaning to start again to get through them.
as for recommendations anything by David Gemmell or David Eddings,as for something epic then it has to be Raymond E Feist's saga's.
i keep meaning to start again to get through them.
as for recommendations anything by David Gemmell or David Eddings,as for something epic then it has to be Raymond E Feist's saga's.
I would second these, particularly if you want to join us fans in the cult of the next books (3rd for Rothfuss,, 4th for Lynch) never, never coming out. Also here to disagree with the poster who said Gentleman Bastard's first book was the best--I absolutely love the 2nd and 3rd ones and think each one's gotten better. (In contrast to Kingkiller where I think the 1st one is unequivocally better--I really enjoyed Wise Man's Fear but it could have been about 300 pages shorter.)
I also deeply love the WoT series, I was just ribbing lol because Jordan certainly has some tics in his writing. My favorite thing about it is how, frankly, weird it is compared to a lot of "classic" fantasy--there's some shit in the last say 5 books where you're just like, "that's batshit crasy" (in a good way). Also for those on the fence--ever wonder what LOTR would be like if all the main characters had anime powers?
Preach! It's The Wire of fantasy book series.
Gardens is an early book by Erickson. It took him around a decade to get it published and then he started writing the sequels. During that decade he significantly improved as a writer. The second book is an order of magnitude better and almost feels like it was written by a different person. You could always go through the Malazan re-read on tor.com for the first book to get an idea of what happens and then start on the second book. If you don't like the second then the series isn't for you and I wouldn't waste more time on it.
As good as it is, I recognise the series is definitely an acquired taste and can be hard work.
I'm starting this soon, but I also want to rec Book of the New Sun, by the recently passed Gene Wolfe. Easily my favorite novels, fantasy or otherwise.
It's not much like ASOIAF or WOT but it is fantastic and more than worth reading. Multiple times.
It's not much like ASOIAF or WOT but it is fantastic and more than worth reading. Multiple times.
Oh I definitely don't have an issue with this actually, I was referring specifically to battles rather than PTSD etc (which I agree I feel Jordan does a good job of so far!)
This was definitely one of the first ones that I thought of.
I definitely felt it was done better than previous battles, and if they do keep getting better then I'll definitely be happy
Honestly I find it surprising how many people seem to love the first three books and say that the ones after that are the ones that slow things down.
My experience with the first three was not positive at all, and honestly those three books felt way slower compared to books 4, 5, and 6) though to be fair, I also felt like it wasn't really until book 3 where I felt like the world actually started feeling like it's own thing.
Honestly I agree with this. I always find it weird when some people criticize the Stormlight Archive for being plot driven instead of character driven, when I feel it's literally the opposite. Pretty much every major plot event and movement in the story is directly related to the character's growth/actions. Even in situations where something happens that did not initiate as a consequence from a character's actions, it's primary purpose was to propel further character growth and arcs.
And while I agree Sanderson does not indulge in the same level of cruelty to it's characters like in SoIaF, I do like that he still manages to have fairly dark themes and moments, without reveling in them or necessarily going into unnecessary detail.
I also feel that while Sanderson definitely indulges in magic systems more, I also feel that there are very few authors that flesh out the systems as strongly and thoroughly as he does. He always has incredibly clear rules on the possibilities and restrictions/limitations of the system, and then uses those to base around what a society would be able to come up with beyond the most basic uses of the power.
Well, you guys convinced me to get Hyperion, especially since it is on discount in the Kindle Store.
Dunno if it has been mentioned already, but Leviathan Wakes is also recommended, and it is also discounted in the Kindle Store.
Now, what to read first? Choices, choices.
Dunno if it has been mentioned already, but Leviathan Wakes is also recommended, and it is also discounted in the Kindle Store.
Now, what to read first? Choices, choices.
Came to post this. If you're a fan of Jim Butcher, or just looking for a quick, fun read, look at the Codex Alera. They're not super deep books, but he does a great job in the worldbuilding and lore. Butcher for me is kind of a "junk food" author, but that doesn't make me love him any less.
As for Jordan, they have a special place in my heart because I read them growing up. I don't know that I can really recommend them, though. It's a daunting task to undertake. Definitely more fantasy than ASOIAF, though.
There's definitely a slowdown in the pace, with books 9 & 10 being the worst offenders, but it's far less grinding now that the series is finished then it was when you had to wait years between books. They're a bit of a slump, but it's not that bad when you haven't been waiting two years and have two years to go until the next one. It also immediately picks up with book 11 and just keeps escalating until the final page.
I honestly don't believe this. Tor would have told him the book was too big to be bound by their printers.
Harriet, Robert Jordan's wife, also said she doesn't think Jordan would have ended up doing it in one book.
Unlike Dany, the coward who gave up on her dreams of peace, Griffith never gave up on his dream. What an inspiration!
I love Stormlight dearly, but my issue with it is that you rarely feel like characters outside of the main cast matter. Adolin for example feels like he's on the edge of mattering but every time he's about to be made irrelevant his massive popularity pushes him for summerslam. It's one of those series where you can feel who is important and who isn't, and the people who are important tend to be flat out better than everybody who isn't in everything from intelligence to fighting and so on. It's a very wide world, but it feels damn small at times despite the very nice worldbuilding because of it.
I love the series and I'll pre-order book 4 when it's announced, but man that's an issue I have with it. It's Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar's show, with a touch of Jasnah and Renarin.
I love the series and I'll pre-order book 4 when it's announced, but man that's an issue I have with it. It's Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar's show, with a touch of Jasnah and Renarin.
He also actually knows how to rule a kingdom after conquering it
It's funny, Hobb gave Martin a blurb for GoT and over the years it became the opposite.
I've mentioned Hobb a few pages because she is my favorite author. She writes very character driven books. Martin is #2 provided he ever finishes ASOIAF. She doesn't do big battles though. Character stories. Her other penname (Meghan Lindholm) books are even more character driven.
My top recommends for character driven books with some political scheming are Hobb, Feist & Wurts Empire trilogy (read Magician first), and C.S. Friedman's Magister trilogy, as I mentioned in previous pages.
WoT would be last on my list. It shares little of the Thrones DNA in my reckoning. I am not a fan at all, but that isn't it.
If you want epic fantasy, sure, pick it up. It doesn't have the ASOIAF level politics or character driven plots, though, which I feel are Martin's strengths.
These books are, like...so tonally different. The politics of this world are so ridiculously childish in comparison to GoT. At one point Rand manipulates some nobles simply by letting them see he's burning some invitations to a party, which makes them go crazy with speculation.
I loved WoT growing up, but I wouldn't recommend them at all. Especially not if you're looking for something to scratch that GoT itch.
I loved WoT growing up, but I wouldn't recommend them at all. Especially not if you're looking for something to scratch that GoT itch.