Emulation is even more of a gamechanger than I thought

MegaManTrigger · Mar 1, 2021

I own a Surface Pro 7 and seeing how decently powerful the 10th gen CPUs (I know...I know, they're no Ryzens), I decided to see how emulation would fare. The Switch was a gamechanger for me in terms of finding something that I can play on the go (obviously less so with a pandemic, but here's to hoping things would be normal), and hence that's why I thought of the Surface Pro. I can plug to HDMI through USB-C, and the thermals are quite balanced. I found that I was able to emulate up to Gamecube quite well before the system starts to get warm.

Anyway, the real gamechanger was the fact that I was able to boost the resolution to 720p/1080p, and it looks beautiful. Thanks to the ability to emulate my library at higher resolutions, I see no reason to have old consoles hooked up to my HDTV anymore (let alone looking at HDMI mods, which are costly and requires soldering skill/knowing someone who can solder reliably)

Strandr · Mar 1, 2021

I recommend if you're playing any GC games to look up to see if anyone has made HD texture packs for them, can really enhance some games like Paper Mario. I know there's also a Paper Mario custom texture pack to replace the button images, so if you're playing with an Xbox controller the in game prompts match the Xbox X, Y, A, and B etc

Dr. Zoidberg · Mar 1, 2021

MegaManTrigger said:
I see no reason to have old consoles hooked up to my HDTV anymore (let alone looking at HDMI mods, which are costly and requires soldering skill/knowing someone who can solder reliably)

It depends on the console and which games. For example there's still N64 and PS2 games that don't work well in emulation, and if you are lag-sensitive then there's a difference in "feel" as well. Some N64 games look beautiful upscaled but then when I play them on the original hardware on a CRT they are definitely more responsive. It varies from game to game.

sir_crocodile · Mar 1, 2021

MegaManTrigger said:
Anyway, the real gamechanger was the fact that I was able to boost the resolution to 720p/1080p, and it looks beautiful. Thanks to the ability to emulate my library at higher resolutions, I see no reason to have old consoles hooked up to my HDTV anymore (let alone looking at HDMI mods, which are costly and requires soldering skill/knowing someone who can solder reliably)

Lag mostly, but if you don't feel it then that's fine. It's only really an issue with games that demand instant responses like punch out and the like.

I find it a bit messy myself having so many consoles hooked up. I already have pretty much my entire library dumped, so long term I'm looking at buying a Mister FPGA system, which will allow me put most of my earlier consoles into storage, but I'm waiting for a good monitor with 60hz single strobe, so I don't have motion blur issues either.

Pargon · Mar 1, 2021

The main reason to use original hardware or FPGA clones is that you know you're getting the original experience as intended, and it doesn't add any latency.
Emulators rarely have 100% compatibility - even the ones rated as being highly accurate - and may add latency.
Of course with run-ahead emulation and VRR displays, it's now possible to achieve lower latency than original hardware in many cases, but it requires a powerful system to achieve that.

Sound emulation is often overlooked too.
It's generally good for systems like the SNES/Genesis, but I was recently reading that the Beetle PSX core in RetroArch still doesn't have some of the accuracy improvements made in the latest version of Mednafen - and that affects big games like Final Fantasy VII.
For many other systems, I just don't know how it compares to original hardware, since they might be less tested in general.

It's possible that things have improved since I last tried, but I was never able to get GameCube/Wii emulation to run 100% smoothly and glitch-free compared to playing on a Wii U either (or original hardware).
The games ran well, but not exactly as they should. You'd get an occasional stutter or audio glitch here and there.

The downside to original hardware or FPGA clones is that it's expensive, and you don't get the filtering/shader options that you do with emulation to make many of these games look their best on a modern display.
There are many CRT shaders/presets which are very impressive these days, and look far better than the basic filtering/scanline options that you get with HDMI-modded systems or FPGAs (if any).

Chief Malik · Mar 1, 2021

sir_crocodile said:
Lag mostly, but if you don't feel it then that's fine. It's only really an issue with games that demand instant rezponses like punch out and the like

I find it a bit messy myself having so many consoles hooked up. I already have pretty much my entire library dumped, so long term I'm looking at buying a Mister FPGA system, but I'm waiting for a good monitor with 60hz single strobe, so I don't have motion blur issues either.

Can't retroarch get even lower latency than the original consoles now?

thebishop · Mar 1, 2021

Emulation has always been magic to me. I never had a SNES, but used to play Battletoads in Battlemaniacs on the family pentium 1.

One crazy thing is that emulation on the OG Xbox is still pretty poor. When the console first came out I waited to buy it, assuming its PC architecture meant an emulator would be out like 6 mo after launch.

Trey · Mar 1, 2021

Emulation/preservation is one of the absolute best things about video games.

Eamon · Mar 1, 2021

Maybe this is a dumb question, but I am still confused by all of this.

Is Emulation allowed, or is it not allowed?

ZeroNoir_ · Mar 1, 2021

has been a gamechanger for me since 1997 i discovered it. I truly love it (even though i don't use it that much anymore)

Eamon696 said:
Maybe this is a dumb question, but I am still confused by all of this.

Is Emulation allowed, or is it not allowed?

Emulation is legal, rom talk is not

MoosGoMoo · Mar 1, 2021

It's amazing that a lot of PS3/360 games can now be played pretty much perfectly on PC, upscaled and with better framerates.

Skel1ingt0n · Mar 1, 2021

As someone who adores video games, I've never been much a fan of emulation.

I'll admit - taking something that doesn't require super precise timing - say a Gamecube RPG, and experiencing it in 4K/60fps on my PC is amazing. No doubt.

But for old arcade games or classic fighters? I'd rather pay (much) more for the original experience - quirks and low resolution and all. I'm hungry for the "authentic experience" and all the timing/low latency that comes with it.

Eamon · Mar 1, 2021

recon_zero_ said:
has been a gamechanger for me since 1997 i discovered it. I truly love it (even though i don't use it that much anymore)

Emulation is legal, rom talk is not

But it seems like you need the latter for the former, no?

EDIT: Sorry this isn't the venue for this conversation, but I have always been interested but skeptical due to concerns over where it was something you were actually allowed to do.

Pancracio17 · Mar 1, 2021

Eamon696 said:
Maybe this is a dumb question, but I am still confused by all of this.

Is Emulation allowed, or is it not allowed?

Emulation is completely legal, its just code to emulate a piece of hardware. Distributing ROMs though, thats illegal.

androvsky · Mar 1, 2021

Dr. Zoidberg said:
It depends on the console and which games. For example there's still N64 and PS2 games that don't work well in emulation, and if you are lag-sensitive then there's a difference in "feel" as well. Some N64 games look beautiful upscaled but then when I play them on the original hardware on a CRT they are definitely more responsive. It varies from game to game.

True, but for older 8-bit and 16-bit systems, Retroarch now has a run-ahead option that lets you match or even beat the original hardware's latency even over HDMI. It doesn't take crazy hardware either, a $40 Raspberry Pi 4 can handle it for many cores.

Eamon696 said:
Maybe this is a dumb question, but I am still confused by all of this.

Is Emulation allowed, or is it not allowed?

Emulation is perfectly legal. There's a lot of handwaving on how to get the games into the emulators, but Retroarch is starting to improve the situation since they're starting to support playing CD-based games directly from the original game disc. They're also promoting open hardware specs for inexpensive ROM dumpers so people can play their own cartridges too.

sir_crocodile · Mar 1, 2021

Abdul Malik Ka'bah said:
Can't retroarch get even lower latency than the original consoles now?

Dunno, I find the project owner of Retroarch disgusting so do not use it. I think you're referring to run-ahead, which I've never really tried.

Eamon696 said:
But it seems like you need the latter for the former, no?

I have dumped all my own games via devices like the Retrode, which have been around for quite a while now.

Eamon · Mar 1, 2021

sir_crocodile said:
Dunno, I find the project owner of Retroarch disgusting so do not use it. I think you're referring to run-ahead, which I've never really tried.

I have dumped all my own games via devices like the Retrode.

I'll have to take a look! Thanks for all the replies everybody!

MoosGoMoo · Mar 1, 2021

Eamon696 said:
But it seems like you need the latter for the former, no?

EDIT: Sorry this isn't the venue for this conversation, but I have always been interested but skeptical due to concerns over where it was something you were actually allowed to do.

If you own the game (so have paid for it), who cares. And if the game isn't legally for sale anymore (so nobody who made/published the game can profit from it), who cares. The only people losing out are second hand sellers. Again, who cares.

Video games is the one medium where it's still a pain to access a large library of content. Films, music and books are all pretty much there for everyone, but games? Locked behind decades old hardware.

StereoVSN · Mar 1, 2021

Skel1ingt0n said:
As someone who adores video games, I've never been much a fan of emulation.

I'll admit - taking something that doesn't require super precise timing - say a Gamecube RPG, and experiencing it in 4K/60fps on my PC is amazing. No doubt.

But for old arcade games or classic fighters? I'd rather pay (much) more for the original experience - quirks and low resolution and all. I'm hungry for the "authentic experience" and all the timing/low latency that comes with it.

MiSTer FPGA would get you that "authentic" experience really for the most part. That said, it's fun to mess around with OG hardware. My main issue is CRT or rather lack of it. Plus, old hardware is fairly fragile.

That said, yeah, since I mainly play older games like RPGs, Adventure, etc... that don't require precise input, emulation works really well. Still going to put together MiSTer for the others.

More advantages of emulation are english translations for titles that never made it out of Japan, game tweaks/ROM hacks, cheats (:P), save states, and more. That said, MiSTer does provide some of that and you can even get some of the functionality through Everdrive type carts and alike.

ghostcrew · Mar 1, 2021

MoosGoMoo said:
If you own the game (so have paid for it), who cares. And if the game isn't legally for sale anymore (so nobody who made/published the game can profit from it), who cares. The only people losing out are second hand sellers. Again, who cares.

To be absolutely clear here, we care. And we won't host discussion about piracy or justification of piracy, for any reasons. You can discuss emulation and happily emulate your games without piracy.

If anyone wants to check up on our rules about discussing piracy and emulation (Eamon696 !) it's all in the FAQ.

While software piracy is never acceptable, emulation is legal and discussions about it are welcome. As long as a hack can be used for legitimate homebrew and/or legal emulation it can be discussed here, and those discussions should not be derailed by piracy concerns. Do not enter a thread about homebrew or emulation and conflate the subject with piracy.

Chief Malik · Mar 1, 2021

sir_crocodile said:
Dunno, I find the project owner of Retroarch disgusting so do not use it. I think you're referring to run-ahead, which I've never really tried.

Also overclocking the controller may help I think.

Slayven · Mar 1, 2021

Is there any advancement on playing Monster Rancher through emulation? Cause i never finished Monster ranchcer evo on the ps2 and the case taunts me

Skel1ingt0n · Mar 1, 2021

StereoVSN said:
MiSTer FPGA would get you that "authentic" experience really for the most part. That said, it's fun to mess around with OG hardware. My main issue is CRT or rather lack of it. Plus, old hardware is fairly fragile.

That said, yeah, since I mainly play older games like RPGs, Adventure, etc... that don't require precise input, emulation works really well. Still going to put together MiSTer for the others.

More advantages of emulation are english translations for titles that never made it out of Japan, game tweaks/ROM hacks, cheats (:P), save states, and more. That said, MiSTer does provide some of that and you can even get some of the functionality through Everdrive type carts and alike.

Sorry! Should have been more clear - completely agree with your sentiment. While I still prefer original hardware (I use an OSSC to hook up my older consoles to my OLED), I'm 99.9% satisfied with hardware-based FGPA emulation. Analogue's stuff is amazing, and I've started looking into my own MiSTer.

Agreed, it gets you close enough for 99.9% of people. But then, even with that, something like an arcade fighter is just... extra special when dealing with the original hardware. The CRT. The cab. Etc.

Chief Malik · Mar 1, 2021

Slayven said:
Is there any advancement on playing Monster Rancher through emulation? Cause i never finished Monster ranchcer evo on the ps2 and the case taunts me

Not sure about pcsx2 but it might work the same way

Shiranui93 · Mar 1, 2021

I'm emulating DKC Returns in 1080p right now and the difference in image quality compared to the Wii is phenomenal. It feels like it wasn't even meant to be played on the Wii but on a higher resolution device in the first place. In addition, I set the motion controls to the shoulder buttons of my Switch Pro Controller, so I don't have to deal with the forced shake controls either. And it runs without any stuttering whatsoever.

It's beautiful.

filkry · Mar 1, 2021

A lot of modern consoles with OSs and home brew scenes make it very easy to dump your own games with an ergonomic app. I'm still occasionally picking up 3DS or Wii games and the first thing I do is stick them in the console and dump them, so when my console kicks the bucket I will still be able to play my games.

I'll be sad when this capability goes away, as I expect the kind of enhanced security that began in the Xbox One will keep future consoles from ever being opened up.

oni-link · Mar 1, 2021

I love emulation, and the great thing is, it should get better with time

shadowman16 · Mar 1, 2021

Shiranui93 said:
I'm emulating DKC Returns in 1080p right now and the difference in image quality compared to the Wii is phenomenal. It feels like it wasn't even meant to be played on the Wii but on a higher resolution device in the first place. In addition, I set the motion controls to the shoulder buttons of my Switch Pro Controller, so I don't have to deal with the forced shake controls either. And it runs without any stuttering whatsoever.

It's beautiful.

A lot of the Wii games (and Gamecube games for that matter) can be upsampled really nicely to 1080p and beyond and look all the better for it. Now I have a better PC I'm playing a few of my Wii games via Dolphin and something like Super Mario Galaxy 2 looks fantastic in HD. Likewise, playing Sonic Colours with a code to unlock its FPS (to 60FPS) is a game changer for it, infinitely smoother experience to how it was on a console.

Other games I've messed around with that benefit from emulation is Yakuza 1&2 for the PS2. Before I had the PS3 HD collection I'd play the PS2 versions via emulation because a) I like the original games over the remakes and b) emulating the games in this fashion lets you up the res to an HD picture (and they look great) while also eliminating the insane load times that plague both PS2 entries.

And there's many other advantages... I like to play games on the original hardware where I can, but emulation is an excellent alternative that can not only preserve the games for future generations (not like the physical games will last forever) and in some instances, improve the experience over the original game (as you say, DKCR is vastly better without that garbage "shake to roll" mechanic)

Eamon · Mar 1, 2021

ghostcrew said:
To be absolutely clear here, we care. And we won't host discussion about piracy or justification of piracy, for any reasons. You can discuss emulation and happily emulate your games without piracy.

If anyone wants to check up on our rules about discussing piracy and emulation (Eamon696 !) it's all in the FAQ.

Thank you I will review the FAQ!

NuclearCake · Mar 1, 2021

Emulation keeps getting better over time and that is exciting. I wish some systems weren't so hard to emulate accurately though.

TC McQueen · Mar 1, 2021

Emulation is going to be the way a lot of old games get anything near a remaster. As more emulators support texture dumping and replacing, you'll see a lot of AI upscaled texture packs for games that no one is re-releasing due to rights issues and lack of interest.

ThreepQuest64 · Mar 1, 2021

People often mention latency but as long as you don't play competitive and/or fighting games requiring ms-precise input you should be fine.

When it comes to sound emulating games might show some flaws in some or many games. Not too mention that depending on the platform and gaming you're required to tinker with different versions and/or settings.

Graphical glitches and bug, also on the gameplay might occur. So you probably might want to check out an emulation wiki about known bugs and issues.

Then again having many consoles simulatenously set-up to your sound system and TV might be as much bothersome as I most recently experienced by myself. As inconvenient emulation sometimes sounds it's still more convenient depending on the game and platform than hooking up original hardware.

Also, depending on your hardware you might as well use emulators. If you don't have an old tube anymore there's not much of a point, as in playing on your 4k TV except you invest in additional hardware solutions that manipulate the output on your modern screen. Which, again, requires time, money and some tinkering.

With less time for gaming than 15 years ago and with how far emulation already got I stick to that. I'm not enough of a retro-fan to maintain all this old hardware. I still hold my RGB modded French N64 model dear but I think I'm not gonna play soon on original hardware while I boot up my games via emulator at least every once in a couple of weeks or months.

sbenji · Mar 1, 2021

I think I'm the only one in the world but I hate when anything is rendered at a higher resolution than what it was designed for.

witcher 3 is unplayable on series x. everything is so sharp it highlights the lowlights in the game.

MegaManTrigger · Mar 1, 2021

androvsky said:
Emulation is perfectly legal. There's a lot of handwaving on how to get the games into the emulators, but Retroarch is starting to improve the situation since they're starting to support playing CD-based games directly from the original game disc. They're also promoting open hardware specs for inexpensive ROM dumpers so people can play their own cartridges too.

I did not know it was becoming possible to run off of the disc.

Micro · Mar 1, 2021

Save states alone are a blessing for old games. Some old FPS games like Call of Duty Finest Hour and Medal of Honor Frontline don't have checkpoints, so falling back to a saved state saves so much time when revisiting them.

That plus being able to use any controller, enhance graphics, and move saves between devices (Pokemon Red save between PC and PSP). I almost exclusively emulate anything I can.

I got Sonic Colors for Wii from a pawn shop and immediately played in on Dolphin instead of the actual console. The save states and enhanced resolution made up for a few sparse hiccups.

sir_crocodile · Mar 1, 2021

androvsky said:
Emulation is perfectly legal. There's a lot of handwaving on how to get the games into the emulators, but Retroarch is starting to improve the situation since they're starting to support playing CD-based games directly from the original game disc. They're also promoting open hardware specs for inexpensive ROM dumpers so people can play their own cartridges too.

Are you talking about for a specific console or something? I was playing saturn games off the disc like 20 years ago on SSF, and nobody liked it. We all ripped our games to isos and used virtual drives because it was such a hassle!

Deleted member 2317 · Mar 1, 2021

Emulation is the number one reason to have a great gaming PC and I'm not even joking! Okay, maybe mods is number one, but emulation is up there.

sir_crocodile · Mar 1, 2021

afternoon delight said:
Emulation is the number one reason to have a great gaming PC and I'm not even joking! Okay, maybe mods is number one, but emulation is up there.

I bought a gaming computer for saturn emulation, and again for PS2 emulation some years later lol

TimeFire · Mar 1, 2021

Emulation is amazing. Not only it enhances the experience, it even allows us to have new ones. Stuff like Fightcade and Slippi are keeping classic fighting games alive and kicking, even in the middle of a pandemic. You can hop on Slippi right now and play some Super Smash Bros. Melee with better online experience than pretty much almost every fighting game out there right now.

Tortahegesztő · Mar 1, 2021

Playing some PS1 games in widescreen with no warping is phenomenal.

Blackpuppy · Mar 1, 2021

Pargon said:
FPGA clones is that you know you're getting the original experience as intended

FPGA isn't a guarantee that you're getting the original experience. The accuracy of the cores is only as good as the developers writing them, and while there are very talented people writing very awesome software, mistakes can still slip through.

Deleted member 2317 · Mar 1, 2021

sir_crocodile said:
I bought a gaming computer for saturn emulation, and again for PS2 emulation some years later lol

I've had two computer rigs in the past ten years- one with 512MB VRAM dedicated entirely to PS1 emulation, and my current rig with 8GB VRAM, dedicated to playing PS2/GC/Wii/Wii U with the quickness. 😂 Playing older games with better textures, stable framerates, a few hiccups here and there, it's totally worth it. I'm a good 50/50 split between a disc or cart I've ripped and a new EXE these days to be honest.

Emulating Breath of the Wild well is a fucking miracle and I nearly weep whilst playing. (And ripping via FTP at 200kbps oh yeah.)

turbobrick · Mar 1, 2021

sir_crocodile said:
Are you talking about for a specific console or something? I was playing saturn games off the disc like 20 years ago on SSF, and nobody liked it. We all ripped our games to isos and used virtual drives because it was such a hassle!

I would assume so, as I've also played ps1 games on emulators using my actual game discs.

But I agree with OP. These days I'd rather play my games on an emulator rather than use the actual system. Also I play LTTP randomizer all the time.

oneils · Mar 1, 2021

sbenji said:
I think I'm the only one in the world but I hate when anything is rendered at a higher resolution than what it was designed for.

witcher 3 is unplayable on series x. everything is so sharp it highlights the lowlights in the game.

Witcher 3 was also a pc game at launch (in 2015?) and has always supported high resolutions.
edit: maybe the xbox one version had low res textures and those haven't been updated on xbox series x?

OmegaDL50 · Mar 1, 2021

MegaManTrigger said:
I did not know it was becoming possible to run off of the disc.

You could run PSX games off the disc for years. As far back as Emulators like Connectix Virtual Game Station (An Emulator over 20 years old) and ePSXe even. It's just the matter of accuracy and running the games better at higher than native res has come a very long way.

Thrill_house · Mar 1, 2021

Emulation is the best. Its so nice being able to laugh at these chucklefucks when they try to re-sell me a half assed port of a game.

StereoVSN · Mar 1, 2021

Skel1ingt0n said:
Sorry! Should have been more clear - completely agree with your sentiment. While I still prefer original hardware (I use an OSSC to hook up my older consoles to my OLED), I'm 99.9% satisfied with hardware-based FGPA emulation. Analogue's stuff is amazing, and I've started looking into my own MiSTer.

Agreed, it gets you close enough for 99.9% of people. But then, even with that, something like an arcade fighter is just... extra special when dealing with the original hardware. The CRT. The cab. Etc.

Speaking of arcade fighters. There are now adapters to hook up MiSTer into genuine Arcade cabinets! Saw a few YouTube videos on that. Now, that's enticing...

MegaManTrigger · Mar 1, 2021

OmegaDL50 said:
You could run PSX games off the disc for years. As far back as Emulators like Connectix Virtual Game Station (An Emulator over 20 years old) and ePSXe even. It's just the matter of accuracy and running the games better at higher than native res has come a very long way.

Oh I just mean for Retroarch unless I misunderstood. The only standalone emulators I know you could run off the disc were ePSXe and PCSX2.

sbenji · Mar 1, 2021

oneils said:
Witcher 3 was also a pc game at launch (in 2015?) and has always supported high resolutions.
edit: maybe the xbox one version had low res textures and those haven't been updated on xbox series x?

I just think the geometry is the issue not the textures.

AmirMoosavi · Mar 1, 2021

Not only improving resolution, but loading times, too.

SoulCalibur: From 7 seconds to just 1:

Emulation is even more of a gamechanger than I thought

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