Electric Vehicles |OT| EV 2.0

captive · Feb 17, 2020

Mengy said:
The luxury car class has never appealed to me, so much fluff and so much that can break over time, just too much shit in them.

literally everything about the maintenance is more expensive. I still shudder at what we paid for maintenance wise on my wifes Audi A4. We literally put 21k miles on our Model 3 last year. The only two things we've had to do was replace a tire because we got a flat that wasn't repairable. And windshield wiper fluid.

give me a model 3/Y over any BMW/Audi/Mercedes. Anything other than an EV, you might as well be literally burning money.

Supercrap · Feb 17, 2020

Ryno23 said:
Here in the US at least you absolutely need to shop around, some companies just don't want to play nice with Tesla. Geico, who was my current insurance quoted me at like $250 a month for basic coverage on Model 3. Went with Progressive because they gave me absolutely max coverage for $80 a month..... The Tesla insurance horror stories are usually from people that didn't bother to shop around.

Isn't the insurance premium based on the fact that the car is full of sensors and of course the battery packs? They are not cheap to repair or replace

captive · Feb 17, 2020

Supercrap said:
Isn't the insurance premium based on the fact that the car is full of sensors and of course the battery packs? They are not cheap to repair or replace

no. Also other cars have sensors too.

I have heard the same stuff Ryno said, some companies don't want to bother. We got a great rate with All State, it was only slightly higher than insurance on the A4, which was ten years old.

Supercrap · Feb 17, 2020

captive said:
no. Also other cars have sensors too.

I have heard the same stuff Ryno said, some companies don't want to bother. We got a great rate with All State, it was only slightly higher than insurance on the A4, which was ten years old.

Coverage for a similar price to a 10 year old a4 is ridiculously good, it's only worth about 1/4 the model 3 at this point

captive · Feb 17, 2020

Supercrap said:
Coverage for a similar price to a 10 year old a4 is ridiculously good, it's only worth about 1/4 the model 3 at this point

yes. which is why us tesla owners get frustrated at the "insurance thing" that keeps getting spread.

Fatoy · Feb 17, 2020

captive said:
yes. which is why us tesla owners get frustrated at the "insurance thing" that keeps getting spread.

I wasn't trying to contribute to any kind of narrative - I was asking a genuine question based on a genuine comparison of the UK car insurance market. I did "shop around," and I got quotes from several insurers who described themselves as Tesla specialists, and insuring a Model 3 was still about twice as much as insuring an Audi e-Tron or a Mercedes EQC, which are two of the most expensive EVs you can buy.

EDIT: Obviously there are a lot of variables in play when it comes to insurance, but I was comparing the exact same circumstances and drivers across all these vehicles. 15k miles driven a year, two drivers in their mid-30s, off-road parking on a private drive. I was honestly just confused by the quotes I was receiving - hence my post. Didn't realise I was opening up a can of worms.

Supercrap · Feb 17, 2020

Fatoy said:
I wasn't trying to contribute to any kind of narrative - I was asking a genuine question based on a genuine comparison of the UK car insurance market. I did "shop around," and I got quotes from several insurers who described themselves as Tesla specialists, and insuring a Model 3 was still about twice as much as insuring an Audi e-Tron, which is one of the most expensive EVs you can buy.

That rate sounds more ridiculous than what captive got.

The model 3 MSRP is like what 40k-60k depending on options. So it should have an appropriate premium based on that and repair cost.

A premium double that of the etron is nuts, unless it is that difficult to repair in the UK

Draper · Feb 17, 2020

I really want to get the Model 3 performance, but that price...

Greatestjediever · Feb 17, 2020

Fatoy said:
I wasn't trying to contribute to any kind of narrative - I was asking a genuine question based on a genuine comparison of the UK car insurance market. I did "shop around," and I got quotes from several insurers who described themselves as Tesla specialists, and insuring a Model 3 was still about twice as much as insuring an Audi e-Tron or a Mercedes EQC, which are two of the most expensive EVs you can buy.

EDIT: Obviously there are a lot of variables in play when it comes to insurance, but I was comparing the exact same circumstances and drivers across all these vehicles.

Yeah, insurance is also highly regional - not sure how many other UK-based model 3 owners we have on the board. My experience in mid-Atlantic US is similar to Captive's. A few dollars higher than my 10 year old 3 series coupe with State Farm. I don't recall which exactly, but some other companies I got rates from were much higher - might have been progressive or geico.

captive · Feb 17, 2020

Fatoy said:
I wasn't trying to contribute to any kind of narrative - I was asking a genuine question based on a genuine comparison of the UK car insurance market. I did "shop around," and I got quotes from several insurers who described themselves as Tesla specialists, and insuring a Model 3 was still about twice as much as insuring an Audi e-Tron or a Mercedes EQC, which are two of the most expensive EVs you can buy.

EDIT: Obviously there are a lot of variables in play when it comes to insurance, but I was comparing the exact same circumstances and drivers across all these vehicles. 15k miles driven a year, two drivers in their mid-30s, off-road parking on a private drive. I was honestly just confused by the quotes I was receiving - hence my post. Didn't realise I was opening up a can of worms.

sorry i didnt meant to imply you were trying to spread something malicously. Others definitely have for sure.

DrEvil · Feb 17, 2020

Byakuya769 said:
... so you're comparing a $45k+ car to economy class cars.

Luxury class cars have a litany of buttons too. Did you not read my follow up post? The simplicity of the interior of the model 3 far exceeds most other vehicles (of any class) in that respect.

Supercrap · Feb 17, 2020

DrEvil said:
Luxury class cars have a litany of buttons too. Did you not read my follow up post? The simplicity of the interior of the model 3 far exceeds most other vehicles (of any class) in that respect.

That's more subjective than anything - I'll keep my 5 series interior thanks

Deleted member 8741 · Feb 17, 2020

I had AllState with a 06 Corolla and a 2015 Subaru. AllState quoted me an insane number for my Model 3. Talked to Progressive. With Progressive I maxed every bit of coverage and still ended up saving $500 a year compared to AllState covering my 06 Corolla and Subraru.

Deleted member 8741 · Feb 17, 2020

Supercrap said:
That's more subjective than anything - I'll keep my 5 series interior thanks

So a car that starts at the top of the Model 3 pricing? Cool.

Supercrap · Feb 17, 2020

Octodad said:
So a car that starts at the top of the Model 3 pricing? Cool.

We were talking about interior design, you can have a great interior in a car at any price range. The classic VW golf/Jetta interior is still very well designed

Deleted member 8741 · Feb 17, 2020

Supercrap said:
We were talking about interior design, you can have a great interior in a car at any price range. The classic VW golf/Jetta interior is still very well designed

I love the design of the M3. Are we talking about design or about materials and build? Because the minimalist design is part of why I loved the Model 3. I find it to be really relaxing and love that it doesn't feel like the cockpit of a plane.

If we're talking materials, then price range definitely matters.

Deleted member 6215 · Feb 17, 2020

Supercrap said:
We were talking about interior design, you can have a great interior in a car at any price range. The classic VW golf/Jetta interior is still very well designed

I'm driving a ten year old VW GTI and the Model 3 interior would feel like a major downgrade to me. It's not a total show-stopper, but enough that I've delayed an EV purchase to wait and see what other options become available.

Deleted member 39374 · Feb 17, 2020

Mengy said:
The luxury car class has never appealed to me, so much fluff and so much that can break over time, just too much shit in them.

That's mostly just a German thing. They're designed to last within the timeframe of the average lease period and/or warranty, after that, everything falls apart starting with the electronics. Porsche is the exception, the cars are built like tanks and with extreme precision and will last a long time if you maintain it properly.

Lexus is american/japanese luxury and the cars last a LONG time and are high quality. Bentleys too, you still see CGT's and Arnages from the early 00's on the roads, which is ironic because they're a VW brand.

Kernel · Feb 17, 2020

Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

Self-driving AI sends shivers through traditional supply chains

asia.nikkei.com

This kind of electronic platform, with a powerful computer at its core, holds the key to handling heavy data loads in tomorrow's smarter, more autonomous cars. Industry insiders expect such technology to take hold around 2025 at the earliest.

That means Tesla beat its rivals by six years.

The implications for the broader auto industry are huge and -- for some -- frightening.

There should be nothing stopping Toyota or VW from doing the same much earlier than 2025, considering their immense financial resources and vast talent pools. But technological hurdles are not the reason for the delay, according to the Japanese engineer who said "we cannot do it."

The real reason for holding off? Automakers worry that computers like Tesla's will render obsolete the parts supply chains they have cultivated over decades, the engineer said.

Such systems will drastically cut the number of electronic control units, or ECUs, in cars. For suppliers that depend on these components, and their employees, this is a matter of life and death.

So big automakers apparently feel obliged to continue using complicated webs of dozens of ECUs, while we only found a few in the Model 3. Put another way, the supply chains that have helped today's auto giants grow are now beginning to hamper their ability to innovate.

Young companies like Tesla, on the other hand, are not shackled to suppliers and are free to pursue the best technologies available

I almost dismissed this article as another Tesla puff piece but it makes an interesting distinction between the company and legacy automakers.

Midramble · Feb 18, 2020

Hesemonni said:
The what now?

Yeah, Toyota has been planning an announcement for an EV line for the 2020 Olympics for a while now. It's said to be fueled by a new type of solid state battery created in partnership with Panasonic (now that the Tesla Panasonic partnership is breaking Toyota swooped in) and they've been getting a lot of funding from the Japan government to help move it forward. I figured more people here would be keeping their eye on it and would've had some opinion but maybe I posted during a dead part of the day/week? Anyone seen any stink or hype about this?

Ryno23 · Feb 18, 2020

Well speaking of the used Model 3 market:

Tesla Model 3 leads industry in value retention, barely loses any value after a year

Tesla Model 3 is leading the industry in value retention by barely losing any value after a year and half...

electrek.co

Leading the industry in value retention, losing only around 5% after 1 year

GSG · Feb 18, 2020

bionic77 said:
Yes. I like the drive (I was actually surprised at how much I liked the handling) but for me I think the interior and generally the quality and fit was pretty poor.

For me price is the most important thing though. I have bought news luxury cars in the past but now I am over it. I want something with a little luxury but can last me a long ass time. That Porsche looks nice but fuck paying retail on something that is going to be replaced in 8-10 years. I can revisit EVs once this commuter car dies in another 8 years.

The interior of the Model 3 is a big reason why I'm not buying one. If I'm paying Tesla's asking price for the Model 3, I expect a nicer interior. Not the biggest fan of doing everything through the touch screen either.

Kernel said:
What part of the country do you live in?

Im guessing it's more down south if you have solar?

I'd be very wary of the Leaf. It has no active cooling for the battery, so these cars battery degrades very quickly in warm climates. A used one driven in such a climate wouldn't have a battery in very good shape and may struggle with that commute with a degraded battery, especially if you need climate control(heat in winter especially).

The Bolt is the best deal right now, I think they're practically giving them away right now with incentives for $26K IIRC. Used ones go for less.
The car is pretty much made by LG so the usual GM reliability doesn't apply.

That's probably the direction I'm going in the next year or so.

The Leaf still not having any active liquid cooling after all these years just boggles my mind. Like I feel that it should be the bare minimum for EVs considering that the battery is the most important component(along with the electric motor).

Kernel · Feb 18, 2020

GSG said:
The Leaf still not having any active liquid cooling after all these years just boggles my mind. Like I feel that it should be the bare minimum for EVs considering that the battery is the most important component(along with the electric motor).

I believe it's a form of planned obsolescence designed to get you to buy a new car(since Nissan raised the price of replacement batteries). There's a lot of 2011 and 2012 Leafs for sale whose battery warranty has expired. I think Nissan will replace the battery under warranty if it degrades past 70% but I'm not sure if it applies to all model years.

It does open up a market for 3rd parties. There's people buying crashed 2019 Leafs and putting the intact battery in the older generation model seamlessly and getting a range upgrade too.

In Japan you can get a remanufactured pack replacement for a very cheap price IIRC.

MrKlaw · Feb 22, 2020

I do think the model 3 goes too far with minimalism. A couple of dials for instant access to temperature changes, an instrument gauge display in front of the wheel to show speed, nav instructions etc - would be an improvement
If I get an M3 I'd probably be happy with the base model - I've settled with the bmw 3 series more efficient 4-cyl engines because driving these days doesn't allow you to benefit from performance and the base model is still plenty. I normally change every three years anyway

octopedes · Feb 22, 2020

The craziest thing with the M3 is that you have to use the center console screen to access the glove box... that's madness

MrKlaw · Feb 22, 2020

How do people like the regen being triggered when you let off the 'gas'? I know on regular cars you'll have some slowing due to engine braking, but with EVs you can usually get more slowing due to regen (and can adjust it). I thought they'd have small regen to simulate standard engine braking, and then use the brake pedal as a regen/brake?

Kernel · Feb 22, 2020

MrKlaw said:
How do people like the regen being triggered when you let off the 'gas'? I know on regular cars you'll have some slowing due to engine braking, but with EVs you can usually get more slowing due to regen (and can adjust it). I thought they'd have small regen to simulate standard engine braking, and then use the brake pedal as a regen/brake?

A lot of cars let you change the behaviour go either mimic ICE cars or to allow one pedal driving.

I personally prefer one pedal driving, thr brake pedal is almost unnecessary.

SteveMeister · Feb 22, 2020

MrKlaw said:
How do people like the regen being triggered when you let off the 'gas'? I know on regular cars you'll have some slowing due to engine braking, but with EVs you can usually get more slowing due to regen (and can adjust it). I thought they'd have small regen to simulate standard engine braking, and then use the brake pedal as a regen/brake?

My Bolt has a "Low" setting, as opposed to normal "Drive", that adds aggressive regenerative braking when you lift off the accelerator. The brake lights come on and it can bring the car to a complete stop.

I love it. It's more relaxing not having to continually move my foot back & forth between pedals. It's fun learning to time things so you come to a stop at exactly the right place. And I appreciate the fact that since I'm not using my brakes nearly as much, they will last far longer than on an ICE car.

There are some downsides. First of all, it doesn't work when the battery is full (because there's nowhere the generated electricity can go), so you need to be prepared for that when you first begin a drive. And when you do come to a complete stop, if you sit there without your foot on the brake I've noticed the brake lights don't stay on, unless I use the hill assist feature (holds the brakes for you when you're on a hill until you apply the throttle). Not having brake lights on while you're stopped can be dangerous because someone coming up behind you may not realize you're stopped right away.

I've also had more than one incident where I've used regen braking to stop at an intersection waiting to turn, and left my foot hovering over the throttle, and I'm about to make my turn but a car appears, and instead of pressing the brake I've pressed the throttle. Fortunately in all of these cases I've realized what was happening right away, but because of them I've had to re-train myself to hold the brake down in these cases instead of hovering over the throttle.

Narroo · Feb 22, 2020

SteveMeister said:
I love it. It's more relaxing not having to continually move my foot back & forth between pedals. It's fun learning to time things so you come to a stop at exactly the right place. And I appreciate the fact that since I'm not using my brakes nearly as much, they will last far longer than on an ICE car.

Just a quick note: Regenerative breaking does work on Hybrid ICE cars; I think that's where they first appeared.

MrKlaw · Feb 22, 2020

Thanks - I'm sure I'd get used to it. I just thought they'd try to map that same regen on the actual brake pedal. So as you press it knows what the 'slowdown curve' should look like and applies regen and/or brakes to achieve that. Would avoid situations like you mention when the battery is full etc

Kernel · Feb 22, 2020

MrKlaw said:
Thanks - I'm sure I'd get used to it. I just thought they'd try to map that same regen on the actual brake pedal. So as you press it knows what the 'slowdown curve' should look like and applies regen and/or brakes to achieve that. Would avoid situations like you mention when the battery is full etc

What people do is not charge to 100%, leave it at 80-90%.

Good idea if you live on a hill.

Deleted member 8741 · Feb 22, 2020

octopedes said:
The craziest thing with the M3 is that you have to use the center console screen to access the glove box... that's madness

I have literally never been bothered by that. Since you can keypad lock the screen it makes it way more secure.

Deleted member 8741 · Feb 22, 2020

MrKlaw said:
I do think the model 3 goes too far with minimalism. A couple of dials for instant access to temperature changes, an instrument gauge display in front of the wheel to show speed, nav instructions etc - would be an improvement
If I get an M3 I'd probably be happy with the base model - I've settled with the bmw 3 series more efficient 4-cyl engines because driving these days doesn't allow you to benefit from performance and the base model is still plenty. I normally change every three years anyway

I still disagree. The screen shows plenty of details already and you can do all of that from the main screen without opening more folder or settings.

MrKlaw · Feb 22, 2020

Octodad said:
I still disagree. The screen shows plenty of details already and you can do all of that from the main screen without opening more folder or settings.

that's reassuring, thanks. I realise these are my thoughts having not driven or lived with one, so it's good to hear it's easy to live with

Ryno23 · Feb 22, 2020

MrKlaw said:
I do think the model 3 goes too far with minimalism. A couple of dials for instant access to temperature changes, an instrument gauge display in front of the wheel to show speed, nav instructions etc - would be an improvement
If I get an M3 I'd probably be happy with the base model - I've settled with the bmw 3 series more efficient 4-cyl engines because driving these days doesn't allow you to benefit from performance and the base model is still plenty. I normally change every three years anyway

octopedes said:
The craziest thing with the M3 is that you have to use the center console screen to access the glove box... that's madness

So temperature changes and the glovebox can now be controlled with your voice, along with seat heaters, wipers, rear camera... Basically everything now

Venatio · Feb 22, 2020

So my wife and I are in the market for a new car since our commuter car is dying (transmission). I started emailing Hyundai dealerships regarding the Kona EV, trying to pit dealerships against each other to get a better price. So far, I've gotten nowhere, and their constant attempts to get me to give them my phone number are driving me crazy. They're not budging on the price, either - they quoted me almost the exact same price, $41,000, and they're not budging. The best I could do was get one dealership to drop their BS dealer addendum of $1k.

Anyone got any tips? Are EV cars so in demand that they dictate the prices? Also, what does everyone think of the Kona EV?

captive · Feb 22, 2020

Venatio said:
So my wife and I are in the market for a new car since our commuter car is dying (transmission). I started emailing Hyundai dealerships regarding the Kona EV, trying to pit dealerships against each other to get a better price. So far, I've gotten nowhere, and their constant attempts to get me to give them my phone number are driving me crazy. They're not budging on the price, either - they quoted me almost the exact same price, $41,000, and they're not budging. The best I could do was get one dealership to drop their BS dealer addendum of $1k.

Anyone got any tips? Are EV cars so in demand that they dictate the prices? Also, what does everyone think of the Kona EV?

For 41k, get a model 3.

MrKlaw · Feb 22, 2020

Venatio said:
So my wife and I are in the market for a new car since our commuter car is dying (transmission). I started emailing Hyundai dealerships regarding the Kona EV, trying to pit dealerships against each other to get a better price. So far, I've gotten nowhere, and their constant attempts to get me to give them my phone number are driving me crazy. They're not budging on the price, either - they quoted me almost the exact same price, $41,000, and they're not budging. The best I could do was get one dealership to drop their BS dealer addendum of $1k.

Anyone got any tips? Are EV cars so in demand that they dictate the prices? Also, what does everyone think of the Kona EV?

kona and e-Niro both seem heavily supply constrained so no big deals to be had

Deleted member 39374 · Feb 22, 2020

octopedes said:
The craziest thing with the M3 is that you have to use the center console screen to access the glove box... that's madness

I hated this in the beginning, but overtime I came to appreciate it since its super secure- you need a PIN to unlock it, effectively

Venatio · Feb 22, 2020

MrKlaw said:
kona and e-Niro both seem heavily supply constrained so no big deals to be had

captive said:
For 41k, get a model 3.

I love the model 3 but my wife is obsessed with getting a SUV. Ugh, honestly I'm probably just gonna get the transmission fixed on our shitty Ford Focus...I'd love an EV (especially since we have solar on our house, so it's a no brainer), but every damn EV is $40k. At that price, I'm not really saving money over the life of the loan. Sucks.

Darren Lamb · Feb 22, 2020

SteveMeister said:
I love it. It's more relaxing not having to continually move my foot back & forth between pedals. It's fun learning to time things so you come to a stop at exactly the right place. And I appreciate the fact that since I'm not using my brakes nearly as much, they will last far longer than on an ICE car.

Same, I exclusively drive in low-mode, it makes certain situations like stop and go traffic so much less stressful. I never want to go back to a car without it

Gpsych · Feb 22, 2020

Are Model Y's out in the wild? I swear I saw a white Model Y in Fort Collins, CO, this morning. I didn't get a great look at it so maybe it was just a Model X, but it looked significantly smaller.

Menx64 · Feb 22, 2020

I soo want to buy an electric car, but they still too expensive here. I can buy a Suzuki Vitara for less than a small eletric car...

Deleted member 8741 · Feb 22, 2020

Gpsych said:
Are Model Y's out in the wild? I swear I saw a white Model Y in Fort Collins, CO, this morning. I didn't get a great look at it so maybe it was just a Model X, but it looked significantly smaller.

Model Ys have been all over the place being tested for about 6 months now. Sounds like first official released ones are coming in March.

Deleted member 8741 · Feb 22, 2020

Venatio said:
I love the model 3 but my wife is obsessed with getting a SUV. Ugh, honestly I'm probably just gonna get the transmission fixed on our shitty Ford Focus...I'd love an EV (especially since we have solar on our house, so it's a no brainer), but every damn EV is $40k. At that price, I'm not really saving money over the life of the loan. Sucks.

Just look at a Model Y.

Byakuya769 · Feb 22, 2020

Venatio said:
So my wife and I are in the market for a new car since our commuter car is dying (transmission). I started emailing Hyundai dealerships regarding the Kona EV, trying to pit dealerships against each other to get a better price. So far, I've gotten nowhere, and their constant attempts to get me to give them my phone number are driving me crazy. They're not budging on the price, either - they quoted me almost the exact same price, $41,000, and they're not budging. The best I could do was get one dealership to drop their BS dealer addendum of $1k.

Anyone got any tips? Are EV cars so in demand that they dictate the prices? Also, what does everyone think of the Kona EV?

hyundai will not budge on Kona prices. I think they're using those to boost margins on the Kona line and have limited supply.

If cost/range are primary drives get a bolt. They're giving those away with almost 15k discounts.

Ryno23 · Feb 22, 2020

Venatio said:
So my wife and I are in the market for a new car since our commuter car is dying (transmission). I started emailing Hyundai dealerships regarding the Kona EV, trying to pit dealerships against each other to get a better price. So far, I've gotten nowhere, and their constant attempts to get me to give them my phone number are driving me crazy. They're not budging on the price, either - they quoted me almost the exact same price, $41,000, and they're not budging. The best I could do was get one dealership to drop their BS dealer addendum of $1k.

Anyone got any tips? Are EV cars so in demand that they dictate the prices? Also, what does everyone think of the Kona EV?

Byakuya769 said:
hyundai will not budge on Kona prices. I think they're using those to boost margins on the Kona line and have limited supply.

If cost/range are primary drives get a bolt. They're giving those away with almost 15k discounts.

Yeah they are just compliance cars they delivered a total of 900 I think to the US all last year they don't actually want to sell any more than required for tax reasons so no they won't budge.

Venatio · Feb 22, 2020

Ryno23 said:
Yeah they are just compliance cars they delivered a total of 900 I think to the US all last year they don't actually want to sell any more than required for tax reasons so no they won't budge.

Holy shit, only 900? I'm talking to 2 dealerships in Orange County, CA, and one has 4 vehicles and the other has 3. But that totally explains their complete unwillingness to move the price. They wouldn't even drop it $900 to make it an even $40k.

Byakuya769 · Feb 22, 2020

Ryno23 said:
Yeah they are just compliance cars they delivered a total of 900 I think to the US all last year they don't actually want to sell any more than required for tax reasons so no they won't budge.

Oooo. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

Mengy · Feb 22, 2020

MrKlaw said:
I do think the model 3 goes too far with minimalism. A couple of dials for instant access to temperature changes, an instrument gauge display in front of the wheel to show speed, nav instructions etc - would be an improvement

I honestly love the minimalism of the Model 3/Y. I can understand why some people think it feels "cheap" without all those fancy gauges and gadgets and such, but personally I prefer sleek and efficient over "fancy".

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