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Deleted member 10675

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
990
Madrid
Indeed that's a good idea, as long as what you're actually tracking is an aimbot (on target percentage can be estimated to be uncharacteristically too high for objects moving fast at a close range, or indeed behind a wall).

If you aren't tracking for aimbots but just players the wallhack alone by the potential FOV and being behind a wall, I could see the potential of this producing false positives for players who are just plain good at listening for players behind walls and predicting movements.
I think there will never be a fully automated and 100% effective anti-cheat solution, even console gamers can use aim assist devices like the Cronus Zen, and false positives seem to be a much worse problem in client side anti-cheats than on server side ones.

Under that premise, the best solution is a combination of getting a decent number of cheats detected automatically + getting a small number of cheats reported by players or flagged as suspicious due to improbable statistics and manually detected by support staff + getting a really small number of false positives that support staff can quickly manually review and revert.

Most companies don't even try, they spend 0$ researching server-side anti-cheat measures. The few cheaters I have seen on PC are not even slightly difficult to detect server side, like people teleporting, flying or moving at absurdly high speeds in Battlefield games.

I think machine learning could be of huge help in this matter, as a neural network properly trained could identify players behaviour when using a wallhack with a high degree of accuracy, for example. But it is easier to infect the player's computer with rootkits that don't even require per-game implementation and are mostly generic.
 

Yudoken

Member
Jun 7, 2019
812
I'm very conflicted about this, From Soft doesn't really put much effort into making sure only cheaters are banned and their games are kinda barebones in terms of options on pc. Some really obvious mods (e.g. unlocked fps/fov options/ultrawide) now can get you banned or locked from online gaming which sucks. Unlocked fps especially will be a no brainer after the flaweless implementation in Sekiro. I really, really don't wanna bother much with 60fps when I can get 4k@120hz.
 

Deleted member 24021

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
4,772
Does EAC prevent mods from working? Mods are the main reason why I'm getting the PC version along with the PS5 version.
 

elenarie

Game Developer
Verified
Jun 10, 2018
9,796
Nice. Epic made a really smart move by getting EAC. One more piece of the puzzle that they can offer to other companies as part of their full stack offering.
 

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
990
New Zealand
I think machine learning could be of huge help in this matter, as a neural network properly trained could identify players behaviour when using a wallhack with a high degree of accuracy, for example.
That indeed may be the key, I think Valve were speculating this as well. We might still be a few years off from the first practical use of this yet, however, but it will be exciting to see.
 

Vash63

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,681
That indeed may be the key, I think Valve were speculating this as well. We might still be a few years off from the first practical use of this yet, however, but it will be exciting to see.

CSGO has used machine learning for anti-cheat for years now, it's part of VACNet. The AI is trained by player's Overwatch reports (CSGO's demo-viewing system for catching cheaters, predates Blizzard's "Overwatch").
 

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
990
New Zealand
CSGO has used machine learning for anti-cheat for years now, it's part of VACNet. The AI is trained by player's Overwatch reports (CSGO's demo-viewing system for catching cheaters, predates Blizzard's "Overwatch").
Strange, I could have sworn they hadn't deployed that yet. I must have lost track.
 

Pocky4Th3Win

Member
Oct 31, 2017
4,078
Minnesota
This doesn't really resolve the fear of the RCE in souls games though. If Elden Ring has it as well then this will just catch the hackers later (this bans on a delay still I believe)not stop them before they attack…
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
54,276
Valve just announced that Easy Anti-Cheat is working with Proton now so it will work with the Steam Deck.


Sooooo, Linux users are basically shit out of luck, at least at launch. I do not believe FROM cares that much about the potential Proton users. I'd love to be proven wrong, especially now with Steam Deck maybe causing them to ship the game with the Linux library outright.

Hope FromSoft used the latest version of EAC for this, otherwise Steam Deck compatibility just went out the window.

Hope this doesn't impact on ability to play on Steam Deck.

store.steampowered.com

Steamworks Development - Steam Deck Anti-Cheat Update - Steam News

Good news for EAC on Deck + Steam Deck test results getting published soon
It can work.
 
Jul 7, 2021
3,076
How do you propose that should work for client side manipulation, such as wall hacking? And remember, it's not always practical to "just not send things the client can't see", due to the logistics of culling out data from the potential view frustum being potentially computationally expensive.

(Plus doing that too strictly while also allowing the client to predict movements in flight would cause constant pop in anyway.)

I think this is a problem ai might be able to solve on the server.
 

DFG

Self requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,591
it depends on the game, Singleplayer of course. I played AoE 4 a bit and the game plays so slow without cheats it's not really fun.

For everything Multiplayer i agree with you.
You used cheats?
You cheated not only the game, but yourself.

You didn't grow.
You didn't improve.
You took a shortcut and gained nothing.

You experienced a hollow victory.
Nothing was risked and nothing was gained.

It's sad that you don't know the difference.
 

Sargerus

â–˛ Legend â–˛
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,830
This potentially will make mods like randomizers and full conversions more difficult to implement in ER, right?
 

Kain-Nosgoth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,532
Switzerland
I'm very conflicted about this, From Soft doesn't really put much effort into making sure only cheaters are banned and their games are kinda barebones in terms of options on pc. Some really obvious mods (e.g. unlocked fps/fov options/ultrawide) now can get you banned or locked from online gaming which sucks. Unlocked fps especially will be a no brainer after the flaweless implementation in Sekiro. I really, really don't wanna bother much with 60fps when I can get 4k@120hz.

how long after release did the sekiro unlocked fps mod came out? Chances are i will probably have finished the game before that,... But still for replay that would suck if i couldn't access online...
 

Yudoken

Member
Jun 7, 2019
812
how long after release did the sekiro unlocked fps mod came out? Chances are i will probably have finished the game before that,... But still for replay that would suck if i couldn't access online...

Apparently a week after Sekiros launch, at least that was the launch date of the mod I was using. I'm personally not much of a multiple playthrough guy but Elden Ring also gets Ray tracing later on so I might either check it out again combined with Ray Tracing if it doesn't arrive in the first week/s or there's an issue with online. But I really wish I can unlock the fps, it's such a significant upgrade. It's exactly what refines the game to what it should be. A very fluid, more consistent and smooth game experience and it reduces the input lag significantly.
 
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Vash63

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,681
store.steampowered.com

Steamworks Development - Steam Deck Anti-Cheat Update - Steam News

Good news for EAC on Deck + Steam Deck test results getting published soon
It can work.

Sure, it *can* work but EAC has had Proton support since November and not a single dev has managed to hit the tickbox and include the .so file in their game repository. None. Just because it can work doesn't mean that the dev is willing to hit the tickbox and add the file to the directory. Evidence points to any developer involvement being too much developer involvement for Linux users.
 

horsemama1956

Member
Jun 22, 2020
351
Sure, it *can* work but EAC has had Proton support since November and not a single dev has managed to hit the tickbox and include the .so file in their game repository. None. Just because it can work doesn't mean that the dev is willing to hit the tickbox and add the file to the directory. Evidence points to any developer involvement being too much developer involvement for Linux users.
Sure it may be as simple as hitting a "tickbox" and including a file, but doesn't that open them up a bit to having to provide support to those people on Linux? They would have to test patches and shit to make it doesn't break compat etc. Can't really blame devs for not wanting to support an extreme(!!) minority of players.
 

Vash63

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,681
Sure it may be as simple as hitting a "tickbox" and including a file, but doesn't that open them up a bit to having to provide support to those people on Linux? They would have to test patches and shit to make it doesn't break compat etc. Can't really blame devs for not wanting to support an extreme(!!) minority of players.

No? They don't do that for any other game on Proton. I don't think allowing their game to work implies that they will provide tech support.
 

horsemama1956

Member
Jun 22, 2020
351
No? They don't do that for any other game on Proton. I don't think allowing their game to work implies that they will provide tech support.
Who's they? Its been mentioned devs aren't opting in to the Linux version of EAC, likely for a reason. Not talking about every game, specifically newer ones that rely on EAC. Opting in to that would acknowledge they support playing on Linux and require they don't break the game on that platform. Would it not?
 

Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,245
Who's they? Its been mentioned devs aren't opting in to the Linux version of EAC, likely for a reason. Not talking about every game, specifically newer ones that rely on EAC. Opting in to that would acknowledge they support playing on Linux and require they don't break the game on that platform. Would it not?

All games running through Proton are being supported by Valve who have to deal with all the issues via fixes to the Proton layer. The only "tech support" on the dev side remains specific for the Windows version, which Proton is being applied used with. The devs are not supporting Linux unless they have a specific Linux version
 

Vash63

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,681
Who's they? Its been mentioned devs aren't opting in to the Linux version of EAC, likely for a reason. Not talking about every game, specifically newer ones that rely on EAC. Opting in to that would acknowledge they support playing on Linux and require they don't break the game on that platform. Would it not?
Proton as a whole has nothing to do with the devs and was done largely without their knowledge at all. The problem is these anti-cheat providers are detecting and blocking Linux users. All we're asking is that they stop blocking us. Valve worked with EAC and Battleeye to make it as as simple as a tickbox or email to their rep, and for EAC including a single file that EAC provides in their game files.
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
54,276
I was more hoping that FromSoft are using the latest EAC so Linux support is trivial, but we know how PC ports and development goes.

We'll have to see.
I'm not sure I'm following. Are you referring to being on the EOS version of EAC being the latest version? Because the hubbub with Vermintide2 needing to be on EOS for easy support was alleviated. Thats what the link i shared states. It doesnt matter what sdk version youre on and you can be in the non EOS version of EAC and have the same minimal effort support for Proton.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,643
This EAC software probably runs as a driver or windows service, right? So it has elevated privileges? I hate such a stuff for a friggin game.
 

plow

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,640
You used cheats?
You cheated not only the game, but yourself.

You didn't grow.
You didn't improve.
You took a shortcut and gained nothing.

You experienced a hollow victory.
Nothing was risked and nothing was gained.

It's sad that you don't know the difference.

i was really hoping it was a CP and i wasn't disappointed.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,494
Hope it doesn't stop offline cheating because that's how I play Souls. But there's always modding anyway.
 

Duxxy3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,684
USA
Depending on how this is implemented, that might kill my pc pre-order. If it's something that only gets enabled when entering PVP or co-op, ok. But if it always starts with the game and prevents any mods... I think I'd just get the console version in that case.
 

Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,223
Spain
User banned (1 week): Antagonizing another member. Prior bans for hostility.
Nice. Epic made a really smart move by getting EAC. One more piece of the puzzle that they can offer to other companies as part of their full stack offering.
it's extremely funny to me how I see you in every Epic-related thread praising Epic, but you never talk about how what they do can benefit consumers, but rather about how good their bussiness decisions are and how they can benefit Epic, as if we're supposed to give a shit about that. lol
 

horsemama1956

Member
Jun 22, 2020
351
Proton as a whole has nothing to do with the devs and was done largely without their knowledge at all. The problem is these anti-cheat providers are detecting and blocking Linux users. All we're asking is that they stop blocking us. Valve worked with EAC and Battleeye to make it as as simple as a tickbox or email to their rep, and for EAC including a single file that EAC provides in their game files.
Yeah I understand Proton and all that. I've swapped between Linux and Windows since the late 90s. You make it sound like its super simple but the fact devs aren't ticking that box and including a simple file tells me its not, as people will buy the game hoping to play on that platform and a simple patch can break support on Proton for that game, which the devs are going to hear about.

Generally minimal resources are spent on PC versions because they don't sell all that much compared to other platforms. EAC is finicky as hell and I can see why devs aren't rushing to support it on more platforms, even if it's a simple process to start.
 
Jul 7, 2021
3,076
As long as there's a non-EAC way to run the game for full modding potential I'll be happy. Definitely wouldn't complain over trying to make the multiplayer more fun by stopping cheaters.

I just don't want it hampering the modding fun for the rest of us that either don't want to engage with or are ok making the sacrifice the multiplayer sid eof things.
 

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,574
Texas
User Banned (1 week): Antagonising other members
it's extremely funny to me how I see you in every Epic-related thread praising Epic, but you never talk about how what they do can benefit consumers, but rather about how good their bussiness decisions are and how they can benefit Epic, as if we're supposed to give a shit about that. lol
Ok glad someone else sees it. Weird corporate bootlicking-adjacent behavior, imo

Easy anti cheat annoys the shit out of me because I run iCUE and Afterburner, and it always, ALWAYS hangs up and makes me stop like 4 processes before I can play games. Doom Eternal and Outriders are the same.
 

jack.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,027
Expected but still a bummer that there will likely be no way to play in ultrawide online. Guess I'll go with the PS5 version.
 

YawZah

Member
Oct 30, 2017
591
Surely this is the kind of game, that Valve would actively lobby the publisher/dev for Proton/Steam Deck support.

Have a hard time seeing them just standing by if it's not initially supported.

Maybe I'm just in denial because I already bought Elden Ring and planned on playing on Steam Deck..
 

wbloop

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,271
Germany
store.steampowered.com

Steamworks Development - Steam Deck Anti-Cheat Update - Steam News

Good news for EAC on Deck + Steam Deck test results getting published soon
It can work.
I'm aware, but as noted with later posts, devs still need to tick a few boxes that enable EAC to be used with Proton. And going by FROM's previous history with PC development, which sure has improved, but never managed to go that much beyond the bare neccessities, I don't see them "ticking the required boxes" for EAC to work with Proton. I mean, most devs have not enabled proper Proton support as of yet. Why should FROM of all of them be one of the first ones to do it?
 

Alo81

Member
Oct 27, 2017
547
I'm going to be extremely bummed of this hobbles modding. The modding community for FromSoft games are excellent, and I don't think worth compromising for whats gained through EAC.
 

Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,223
Spain
Ok glad someone else sees it. Weird corporate bootlicking-adjacent behavior, imo

Easy anti cheat annoys the shit out of me because I run iCUE and Afterburner, and it always, ALWAYS hangs up and makes me stop like 4 processes before I can play games. Doom Eternal and Outriders are the same.
yeah like, all of these posts basically read "yooo this will help Epic dominate the market, cool"

extremely weird

and yeah EAC fucking sucks, there are cheaters anyways and legitimate users get annoyed (external programs being blocked, Proton issues etc)